| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Mark Nutter" |
| Date: |
03 Mar 2004 10:38:14 AM |
| Object: |
Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
In retrospect, I should have realized that I was putting my faith in a
mythical God. There were definite warning signs which I ignored,
without even realizing it. Would it have helped if someone had
alerted me to these warning signs? I can't say, but just in case it
helps someone else, here are the Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical
Gods. I recommend applying them to other people's gods rather than
your own--they're much more satisfying that way ;)
------------------------------------
1. The words of men (written or spoken) are presented as being the
Word(s) of God.
2. God speaks to you in a voice only you can hear, even if other
people are within easy hearing distance of you.
3. God never tells you anything you couldn't have come up with on
your own.
4. The miracles you can verify don't really require supernatural
intervention, and the miracles that require supernatural intervention,
you can't really verify.
5. You take people's belief or disbelief in God as an indicator of
their moral condition.
6. Over the course of history, your religion tends to divide into
various sectarian theologies corresponding to various personality
types, cultures, and other social factors, rather than converging on a
single, common, increasingly detailed and specific understanding of
God's nature and will.
7. Those who believe in your God evolve a "spiritual" jargon in which
terms like "seeing," "hearing," "presence," "touch," and so on mean
things that don't involve literally seeing, literally hearing,
literally being present, literally touching, etc.
8. God is routinely given all the credit for things men do on His
behalf.
9. Later revelations from God require a reinterpretation of what God
"really meant" in some of His earlier revelations.
10. You need to apply a different standard of proof when judging your
own beliefs than what you would accept as valid when judging the
beliefs of others.
11. Your beliefs about God include inconsistencies, difficulties, and
self-contradictions that can only be excused by appealing to the idea
that "God works in mysterious ways" and "God's thoughts are not man's
thoughts."
and of course
12. You never ever actually see or hear him, in the literal sense of
seeing or hearing.
------------------------------------
Each of these signs is the consequence of a mythical god's inability
to actually do anything apart from what men do on his/her/its behalf.
Because the mythical god does not actually exist outside human
imagination, these warning signs will inevitably become manifest
whenever anybody tries to believe that such a god does exist in the
real world.
I can go into detail about each one of these signs, if anyone so
desires. ;)
m
aa#2115
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: AQOTM: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
03 Mar 2004 06:06:37 PM |
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"Mark Nutter" <manutter51@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fddfde37.0403030838.b6bc12@posting.google.com...
(snip)
They're all good, but I nominate this one as a crucial, yet commonly
ignored, point.
6. Over the course of history, your religion tends to divide into
various sectarian theologies corresponding to various personality
types, cultures, and other social factors, rather than converging on a
single, common, increasingly detailed and specific understanding of
God's nature and will.
--Mark Nutter
Seconds?
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "Marvin" |
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| Title: Re: AQOTM: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
03 Mar 2004 07:21:31 PM |
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"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:kKednaJZV_TP7tvdRVn-uQ@io.com...
"Mark Nutter" <manutter51@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fddfde37.0403030838.b6bc12@posting.google.com...
(snip)
They're all good, but I nominate this one as a crucial, yet
commonly
ignored, point.
6. Over the course of history, your religion tends to
divide into
various sectarian theologies corresponding to various
personality
types, cultures, and other social factors, rather than
converging on a
single, common, increasingly detailed and specific
understanding of
God's nature and will.
--Mark Nutter
Seconds?
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
I'll second it! I'm going to have to look for the other
eleven--well stated.
Marvin Doolin
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| User: "*nemo*" |
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| Title: Re: AQOTM: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
06 Mar 2004 03:43:09 AM |
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In article <Slv1c.904$W01.78@fe25.usenetserver.com>,
"Marvin" <marvin2@fogstarband.net> wrote:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:kKednaJZV_TP7tvdRVn-uQ@io.com...
"Mark Nutter" <manutter51@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fddfde37.0403030838.b6bc12@posting.google.com...
(snip)
They're all good, but I nominate this one as a crucial, yet
commonly
ignored, point.
6. Over the course of history, your religion tends to
divide into
various sectarian theologies corresponding to various
personality
types, cultures, and other social factors, rather than
converging on a
single, common, increasingly detailed and specific
understanding of
God's nature and will.
--Mark Nutter
Seconds?
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
I'll second it! I'm going to have to look for the other
eleven--well stated.
Recorded.
Marvin Doolin
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
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| User: "tommyknocker" |
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| Title: Re: AQOTM: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
03 Mar 2004 08:22:40 PM |
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Denis Loubet wrote:
"Mark Nutter" <manutter51@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fddfde37.0403030838.b6bc12@posting.google.com...
(snip)
They're all good, but I nominate this one as a crucial, yet commonly
ignored, point.
6. Over the course of history, your religion tends to divide into
various sectarian theologies corresponding to various personality
types, cultures, and other social factors, rather than converging on a
single, common, increasingly detailed and specific understanding of
God's nature and will.
--Mark Nutter
Seconds?
Yep. In the early days of both Christianity and Islam their followers
attributed a vast amount of contradictory opinions and beliefs to their
respective prophets. Eventually this was dealt with by having one branch
declare the others heretics and forcing the "heretics" to follow the
"correct" faith. I still am awed by the fact that nobody thought to
write down what the Prophet Muhammad actually said until after he
died-and of course by then there was all sorts of opinions on what he
actually said.
.
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon The 15th" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
04 Mar 2004 08:08:28 PM |
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(Mark Nutter) wrote in
news:fddfde37.0403030838.b6bc12@posting.google.com:
In retrospect, I should have realized that I was putting my faith in a
mythical God. There were definite warning signs which I ignored,
without even realizing it. Would it have helped if someone had
alerted me to these warning signs? I can't say, but just in case it
helps someone else, here are the Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical
Gods. I recommend applying them to other people's gods rather than
your own--they're much more satisfying that way ;)
------------------------------------
<SNIP>
How about an additional one.
13. The god requires a caste of priests to intercede with the god on
behalf of the followers?
L.
------------------------------------
Each of these signs is the consequence of a mythical god's inability
to actually do anything apart from what men do on his/her/its behalf.
Because the mythical god does not actually exist outside human
imagination, these warning signs will inevitably become manifest
whenever anybody tries to believe that such a god does exist in the
real world.
I can go into detail about each one of these signs, if anyone so
desires. ;)
m
aa#2115
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| User: "William Klee" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
05 Mar 2004 12:18:17 AM |
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In article <Xns94A399C98D10CLlanzlanLlurdiaxorbn@203.97.37.6>, Llanzlan
Klazmon The 15th <Llanzlan@Llurdiaxorb.net> wrote:
manutter51@yahoo.com (Mark Nutter) wrote in
news:fddfde37.0403030838.b6bc12@posting.google.com:
In retrospect, I should have realized that I was putting my faith in a
mythical God. There were definite warning signs which I ignored,
without even realizing it. Would it have helped if someone had
alerted me to these warning signs? I can't say, but just in case it
helps someone else, here are the Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical
Gods. I recommend applying them to other people's gods rather than
your own--they're much more satisfying that way ;)
------------------------------------
<SNIP>
How about an additional one.
13. The god requires a caste of priests to intercede with the god on
behalf of the followers?
L.
And god orders the people to support the priestly caste in their
"vital" work. To support them in luxury, no less.
------------------------------------
Each of these signs is the consequence of a mythical god's inability
to actually do anything apart from what men do on his/her/its behalf.
Because the mythical god does not actually exist outside human
imagination, these warning signs will inevitably become manifest
whenever anybody tries to believe that such a god does exist in the
real world.
I can go into detail about each one of these signs, if anyone so
desires. ;)
m
aa#2115
--
....and in elder days there were wars in the Heavens between the Ibemmeraphim
and the Angels of the Apple of Knowledge...
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| User: "Mark Nutter" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
06 Mar 2004 04:26:26 PM |
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Llanzlan Klazmon The 15th <Llanzlan@Llurdiaxorb.net> wrote in message news:<Xns94A399C98D10CLlanzlanLlurdiaxorbn@203.97.37.6>...
How about an additional one.
13. The god requires a caste of priests to intercede with the god on
behalf of the followers?
Oo, I hadn't thought about that one, but you're right, that's a good
(or bad) sign. Human potentates have to use various ministers and
assistants to help them implement their policies because they can't be
everywhere at once. Real gods shouldn't have that limitation, and
they therefore should not need to elevate one class of individuals to
a superior station halfway between god and men just to manage the
interface.
I'll add that to the list, thanks. I'm up to 18 signs now, by the
way. Anybody got any more?
m
aa#2115
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| User: "SReeseMe" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
03 Mar 2004 06:59:08 PM |
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Subject: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods
From: (Mark Nutter)
Date: 03/03/2004 11:38 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <fddfde37.0403030838.b6bc12@posting.google.com>
In retrospect, I should have realized that I was putting my faith in a
mythical God. There were definite warning signs which I ignored,
without even realizing it. Would it have helped if someone had
alerted me to these warning signs? I can't say, but just in case it
helps someone else, here are the Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical
Gods. I recommend applying them to other people's gods rather than
your own--they're much more satisfying that way ;)
------------------------------------
1. The words of men (written or spoken) are presented as being the
Word(s) of God.
2. God speaks to you in a voice only you can hear, even if other
people are within easy hearing distance of you.
3. God never tells you anything you couldn't have come up with on
your own.
4. The miracles you can verify don't really require supernatural
intervention, and the miracles that require supernatural intervention,
you can't really verify.
5. You take people's belief or disbelief in God as an indicator of
their moral condition.
6. Over the course of history, your religion tends to divide into
various sectarian theologies corresponding to various personality
types, cultures, and other social factors, rather than converging on a
single, common, increasingly detailed and specific understanding of
God's nature and will.
7. Those who believe in your God evolve a "spiritual" jargon in which
terms like "seeing," "hearing," "presence," "touch," and so on mean
things that don't involve literally seeing, literally hearing,
literally being present, literally touching, etc.
8. God is routinely given all the credit for things men do on His
behalf.
9. Later revelations from God require a reinterpretation of what God
"really meant" in some of His earlier revelations.
10. You need to apply a different standard of proof when judging your
own beliefs than what you would accept as valid when judging the
beliefs of others.
11. Your beliefs about God include inconsistencies, difficulties, and
self-contradictions that can only be excused by appealing to the idea
that "God works in mysterious ways" and "God's thoughts are not man's
thoughts."
and of course
12. You never ever actually see or hear him, in the literal sense of
seeing or hearing.
------------------------------------
Each of these signs is the consequence of a mythical god's inability
to actually do anything apart from what men do on his/her/its behalf.
Because the mythical god does not actually exist outside human
imagination, these warning signs will inevitably become manifest
whenever anybody tries to believe that such a god does exist in the
real world.
I can go into detail about each one of these signs, if anyone so
desires. ;)
m
aa#2115
Great list! The only thing I can think to add is:
"God commands you to seek donations, tithes, etc from other lesser humans to
fund your ministry to spread his word."
But then again I'm really cynical.
-Stephen
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| User: "Mark Nutter" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
06 Mar 2004 04:22:31 PM |
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(SReeseMe) wrote in message news:<20040303195908.29802.00000799@mb-m21.aol.com>...
Great list! The only thing I can think to add is:
"God commands you to seek donations, tithes, etc from other lesser humans to
fund your ministry to spread his word."
Thanks! Yeah, that's a good point. Mythical gods don't have any
actual power of their own, so they have to rely on the worldly power
of things like money in order to accomplish their purposes.
I'll add that to the list. Cheers.
m
aa#2115
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| User: "tommyknocker" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
03 Mar 2004 08:18:16 PM |
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SReeseMe wrote:
Subject: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods
From: (Mark Nutter)
Date: 03/03/2004 11:38 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <fddfde37.0403030838.b6bc12@posting.google.com>
In retrospect, I should have realized that I was putting my faith in a
mythical God. There were definite warning signs which I ignored,
without even realizing it. Would it have helped if someone had
alerted me to these warning signs? I can't say, but just in case it
helps someone else, here are the Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical
Gods. I recommend applying them to other people's gods rather than
your own--they're much more satisfying that way ;)
------------------------------------
1. The words of men (written or spoken) are presented as being the
Word(s) of God.
2. God speaks to you in a voice only you can hear, even if other
people are within easy hearing distance of you.
3. God never tells you anything you couldn't have come up with on
your own.
4. The miracles you can verify don't really require supernatural
intervention, and the miracles that require supernatural intervention,
you can't really verify.
5. You take people's belief or disbelief in God as an indicator of
their moral condition.
6. Over the course of history, your religion tends to divide into
various sectarian theologies corresponding to various personality
types, cultures, and other social factors, rather than converging on a
single, common, increasingly detailed and specific understanding of
God's nature and will.
7. Those who believe in your God evolve a "spiritual" jargon in which
terms like "seeing," "hearing," "presence," "touch," and so on mean
things that don't involve literally seeing, literally hearing,
literally being present, literally touching, etc.
8. God is routinely given all the credit for things men do on His
behalf.
9. Later revelations from God require a reinterpretation of what God
"really meant" in some of His earlier revelations.
10. You need to apply a different standard of proof when judging your
own beliefs than what you would accept as valid when judging the
beliefs of others.
11. Your beliefs about God include inconsistencies, difficulties, and
self-contradictions that can only be excused by appealing to the idea
that "God works in mysterious ways" and "God's thoughts are not man's
thoughts."
and of course
12. You never ever actually see or hear him, in the literal sense of
seeing or hearing.
------------------------------------
Each of these signs is the consequence of a mythical god's inability
to actually do anything apart from what men do on his/her/its behalf.
Because the mythical god does not actually exist outside human
imagination, these warning signs will inevitably become manifest
whenever anybody tries to believe that such a god does exist in the
real world.
I can go into detail about each one of these signs, if anyone so
desires. ;)
m
aa#2115
Great list! The only thing I can think to add is:
"God commands you to seek donations, tithes, etc from other lesser humans to
fund your ministry to spread his word."
But then again I'm really cynical.
-Stephen
If you look at Joseph Smith's (Mormon Church) "revelations from God"
you'll find that most of them have to do with God ordering people to
give their money to Joseph Smith. God ordered one guy to sell his farm
(a big deal in 1830) to finance the printing of the Book of Mormon.
It's a nice gig if you can get it.
.
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon The 15th" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
04 Mar 2004 08:10:56 PM |
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tommyknocker <tomynokr@uucp.hell> wrote in
news:104d4f9qeaor1c8@corp.supernews.com:
SReeseMe wrote:
Subject: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods
From: (Mark Nutter)
Date: 03/03/2004 11:38 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <fddfde37.0403030838.b6bc12@posting.google.com>
In retrospect, I should have realized that I was putting my faith in
a mythical God. There were definite warning signs which I ignored,
without even realizing it. Would it have helped if someone had
alerted me to these warning signs? I can't say, but just in case it
helps someone else, here are the Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical
Gods. I recommend applying them to other people's gods rather than
your own--they're much more satisfying that way ;)
------------------------------------
1. The words of men (written or spoken) are presented as being the
Word(s) of God.
2. God speaks to you in a voice only you can hear, even if other
people are within easy hearing distance of you.
3. God never tells you anything you couldn't have come up with on
your own.
4. The miracles you can verify don't really require supernatural
intervention, and the miracles that require supernatural
intervention, you can't really verify.
5. You take people's belief or disbelief in God as an indicator of
their moral condition.
6. Over the course of history, your religion tends to divide into
various sectarian theologies corresponding to various personality
types, cultures, and other social factors, rather than converging on
a single, common, increasingly detailed and specific understanding
of God's nature and will.
7. Those who believe in your God evolve a "spiritual" jargon in
which terms like "seeing," "hearing," "presence," "touch," and so on
mean things that don't involve literally seeing, literally hearing,
literally being present, literally touching, etc.
8. God is routinely given all the credit for things men do on His
behalf.
9. Later revelations from God require a reinterpretation of what
God "really meant" in some of His earlier revelations.
10. You need to apply a different standard of proof when judging
your own beliefs than what you would accept as valid when judging
the beliefs of others.
11. Your beliefs about God include inconsistencies, difficulties,
and self-contradictions that can only be excused by appealing to the
idea that "God works in mysterious ways" and "God's thoughts are not
man's thoughts."
and of course
12. You never ever actually see or hear him, in the literal sense
of seeing or hearing.
------------------------------------
Each of these signs is the consequence of a mythical god's inability
to actually do anything apart from what men do on his/her/its
behalf. Because the mythical god does not actually exist outside
human imagination, these warning signs will inevitably become
manifest whenever anybody tries to believe that such a god does
exist in the real world.
I can go into detail about each one of these signs, if anyone so
desires. ;)
m
aa#2115
Great list! The only thing I can think to add is:
"God commands you to seek donations, tithes, etc from other lesser
humans to fund your ministry to spread his word."
But then again I'm really cynical.
-Stephen
If you look at Joseph Smith's (Mormon Church) "revelations from God"
you'll find that most of them have to do with God ordering people to
give their money to Joseph Smith. God ordered one guy to sell his farm
(a big deal in 1830) to finance the printing of the Book of Mormon.
It's a nice gig if you can get it.
Read Acts of the apostles where god kills a couple for failing to give
all their money to Peter. Joseph Smith wasn't the first to figure out
this scam.
Llanzlan.
.
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| User: "tommyknocker" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
05 Mar 2004 09:01:07 PM |
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Llanzlan Klazmon The 15th wrote:
tommyknocker <tomynokr@uucp.hell> wrote in
news:104d4f9qeaor1c8@corp.supernews.com:
SReeseMe wrote:
Subject: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods
From: (Mark Nutter)
Date: 03/03/2004 11:38 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <fddfde37.0403030838.b6bc12@posting.google.com>
In retrospect, I should have realized that I was putting my faith in
a mythical God. There were definite warning signs which I ignored,
without even realizing it. Would it have helped if someone had
alerted me to these warning signs? I can't say, but just in case it
helps someone else, here are the Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical
Gods. I recommend applying them to other people's gods rather than
your own--they're much more satisfying that way ;)
------------------------------------
1. The words of men (written or spoken) are presented as being the
Word(s) of God.
2. God speaks to you in a voice only you can hear, even if other
people are within easy hearing distance of you.
3. God never tells you anything you couldn't have come up with on
your own.
4. The miracles you can verify don't really require supernatural
intervention, and the miracles that require supernatural
intervention, you can't really verify.
5. You take people's belief or disbelief in God as an indicator of
their moral condition.
6. Over the course of history, your religion tends to divide into
various sectarian theologies corresponding to various personality
types, cultures, and other social factors, rather than converging on
a single, common, increasingly detailed and specific understanding
of God's nature and will.
7. Those who believe in your God evolve a "spiritual" jargon in
which terms like "seeing," "hearing," "presence," "touch," and so on
mean things that don't involve literally seeing, literally hearing,
literally being present, literally touching, etc.
8. God is routinely given all the credit for things men do on His
behalf.
9. Later revelations from God require a reinterpretation of what
God "really meant" in some of His earlier revelations.
10. You need to apply a different standard of proof when judging
your own beliefs than what you would accept as valid when judging
the beliefs of others.
11. Your beliefs about God include inconsistencies, difficulties,
and self-contradictions that can only be excused by appealing to the
idea that "God works in mysterious ways" and "God's thoughts are not
man's thoughts."
and of course
12. You never ever actually see or hear him, in the literal sense
of seeing or hearing.
------------------------------------
Each of these signs is the consequence of a mythical god's inability
to actually do anything apart from what men do on his/her/its
behalf. Because the mythical god does not actually exist outside
human imagination, these warning signs will inevitably become
manifest whenever anybody tries to believe that such a god does
exist in the real world.
I can go into detail about each one of these signs, if anyone so
desires. ;)
m
aa#2115
Great list! The only thing I can think to add is:
"God commands you to seek donations, tithes, etc from other lesser
humans to fund your ministry to spread his word."
But then again I'm really cynical.
-Stephen
If you look at Joseph Smith's (Mormon Church) "revelations from God"
you'll find that most of them have to do with God ordering people to
give their money to Joseph Smith. God ordered one guy to sell his farm
(a big deal in 1830) to finance the printing of the Book of Mormon.
It's a nice gig if you can get it.
Read Acts of the apostles where god kills a couple for failing to give
all their money to Peter. Joseph Smith wasn't the first to figure out
this scam.
Llanzlan.
Yeah, but Joe didn't actually kill anybody for not giving their money to
him. But I guess the threat of hell works just as well...
.
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| User: "Mark Nutter" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
03 Mar 2004 06:11:39 PM |
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Drat, forgot one of the big ones:
13. Your God has strict taboos against being tested, and will be
offended if you try to get Him to do anything that would require
actual existence on His part.
So make that the Top 13 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods. Somehow I
think it won't stop at 13.
m
aa#2115
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| User: "Kadaitcha Man" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
05 Mar 2004 12:37:00 AM |
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Mark Nutter wrote:
Because the mythical god does not actually exist outside human
imagination
BZZZZT! Absolutely unprovable assertion.
.
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| User: "Mark Nutter" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
05 Mar 2004 07:35:56 AM |
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"Kadaitcha Man" <nospam@kadaitcha.cx> wrote in message news:<2v3lBCVEyTVR3AD55899DF83D9DEbPQbcG4n1JOo@kadaitcha.cx>...
Mark Nutter wrote:
Because the mythical god does not actually exist outside human
imagination
BZZZZT! Absolutely unprovable assertion.
Um, ok, so you would define the term "mythical" as meaning exactly what, then?
m
aa#2115
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| User: "Kadaitcha Man" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
06 Mar 2004 12:36:55 AM |
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Mark Nutter wrote:
"Kadaitcha Man" <nospam@kadaitcha.cx> wrote in message
news:<2v3lBCVEyTVR3AD55899DF83D9DEbPQbcG4n1JOo@kadaitcha.cx>...
Mark Nutter wrote:
Because the mythical god does not actually exist outside human
imagination
BZZZZT! Absolutely unprovable assertion.
Um, ok, so you would define the term "mythical" as meaning exactly
what, then?
I don't need to define the term at all. The entire statement refers to the
context you were writing in at the time. If you now cannot recall the
context, that's entirely your problem, not anyone else's.
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| User: "Mark Nutter" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
07 Mar 2004 09:55:46 AM |
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"Kadaitcha Man" <nospam@kadaitcha.cx> wrote in message news:<MQJ1yBKBh69F3917581B24BC7616CvL6CSF7uB05@kadaitcha.cx>...
Mark Nutter wrote:
"Kadaitcha Man" <nospam@kadaitcha.cx> wrote in message
news:<2v3lBCVEyTVR3AD55899DF83D9DEbPQbcG4n1JOo@kadaitcha.cx>...
Mark Nutter wrote:
Because the mythical god does not actually exist outside human
imagination
BZZZZT! Absolutely unprovable assertion.
Um, ok, so you would define the term "mythical" as meaning exactly
what, then?
I don't need to define the term at all. The entire statement refers to the
context you were writing in at the time. If you now cannot recall the
context, that's entirely your problem, not anyone else's.
Hmm, I replied to this yesterday, but I'm not seeing it on Google
Groups and it's been a full day. I'll resubmit, with apologies if
anyone gets the overlap.
I do indeed recall the context, of course--I wrote the original post,
after all. I wrote about the warning signs that would necessarily
accompany a mythical god, as a consequence of his or her lack of real
existence. It seems to me that the very definition of "mythical"
implies something that does not exist outside of the imagination, and
consequently it is not an "absolutely unprovable assertion" to say
that the mythical god, like the mythical dragon or the mythical fairy,
is an entity which does not exist outside human imagination. If you
wish to dispute that, then it would help if you would clarify for me
what you think the term "mythical" signifies.
On the other hand, if you are just objecting because you think the
warning signs listed apply too well to your God, well, I don't think
it's fair to hold me responsible for the characteristics of someone
else's god. Take my list and apply it to Horus or Ra or Baal and see
if their lack of real existence does not indeed lead to the
manifestation of the warning signs I described. Or try the Jesus
Christ of the Latter Day Saints, the God of Mary Baker Eddy, or the
non-trinitarian Jehovah of the Watchtower.
Just think about it. If a god is mythical--i.e. believed in but not
actually real--then there are bound to be certain consequences and
warning signs. What would those signs be? If you think I've listed a
sign that a mythical god would not actually manifest, then identify
the sign and explain why you think it is not valid. For that matter,
if you can think of any I've left out, feel free to add to the list.
But if you're just unhappy because your God shows too many of the
signs, then you should address your complaints to Him, not me. If He
can't do anything about them, then there's nothing I'm going to be
able to do for Him. ;)
m
aa#2115
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| User: "Kadaitcha Man" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
07 Mar 2004 05:27:10 PM |
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Mark Nutter wrote:
"Kadaitcha Man" <nospam@kadaitcha.cx> wrote in message
news:<MQJ1yBKBh69F3917581B24BC7616CvL6CSF7uB05@kadaitcha.cx>...
Mark Nutter wrote:
"Kadaitcha Man" <nospam@kadaitcha.cx> wrote in message
news:<2v3lBCVEyTVR3AD55899DF83D9DEbPQbcG4n1JOo@kadaitcha.cx>...
Mark Nutter wrote:
Because the mythical god does not actually exist outside human
imagination
BZZZZT! Absolutely unprovable assertion.
Um, ok, so you would define the term "mythical" as meaning exactly
what, then?
I don't need to define the term at all. The entire statement refers
to the context you were writing in at the time. If you now cannot
recall the context, that's entirely your problem, not anyone else's.
Hmm, I replied to this yesterday, but I'm not seeing it on Google
Groups and it's been a full day. I'll resubmit, with apologies if
anyone gets the overlap.
No problem.
I do indeed recall the context, of course--I wrote the original post,
after all. I wrote about the warning signs that would necessarily
accompany a mythical god, as a consequence of his or her lack of real
existence. It seems to me that the very definition of "mythical"
implies something that does not exist outside of the imagination, and
consequently it is not an "absolutely unprovable assertion" to say
that the mythical god, like the mythical dragon or the mythical fairy,
is an entity which does not exist outside human imagination.
Well, yes, that's what it seems to you, but you miss an essential point.
Ascribing the property of mythical to all gods is nonsense on the
grounds that you can only reasonably infer that some gods are mythical,
not all gods. Reasonably infering is not the same as proving.
It goes even further than that because you cannot ascribe the property
of being mythical to all gods because you simply cannot prove that all
gods are mythical. In fact, you cannot prove any god to be real or
mythical.
So, ascribing the property of being mythical to all gods, or even any
god can be shown to be quite illogical from a rational perspective.
There's more on that in a moment...
If you
wish to dispute that, then it would help if you would clarify for me
what you think the term "mythical" signifies.
I don't dispute what you take as a meaning for mythical. What I dispute
is your ability to support any assertion with logical argument that
these gods are indeed mythical.
It is not logically possible to show that any gods are mythical, let
alone all the other gods you infer to be mythical.
On the other hand, if you are just objecting because you think the
warning signs listed apply too well to your God, well, I don't think
it's fair to hold me responsible for the characteristics of someone
else's god.
If I objected to what you wrote, I wouldn't have snipped it. I would
have addressed each point. You fail to realise that all of what you
said is founded on the assumption that gods are mythical. So it
follows that if you cannot support that one assertion then all of
what you said also falls down with that assertion.
As it was, I objected to your statement that "the mythical god does
not actually exist outside human imagination" on the grounds that you
could not, neither logically nor empirically, show that assertion to
be correct or valid. That is the only issue there is to be dealt with.
Take my list and apply it to Horus or Ra or Baal and see
if their lack of real existence does not indeed lead to the
manifestation of the warning signs I described. Or try the Jesus
Christ of the Latter Day Saints, the God of Mary Baker Eddy, or the
non-trinitarian Jehovah of the Watchtower.
Well, all of those are questionable on theological grounds alone,
not on empirical grounds. And that's where you make your mistake.
Consigning all gods to mythology is an outright assertion of
empiricisim without having shown how empiricism can consign
them to such a place. Again, that's the issue I have.
Just think about it.
It seems to me that you have not yet done what you are now asking
me to do. Not only do I have an IQ of 134 and hold a well respected
and well paid position in the field of applied psychology and
artificial intelligence, I am also a Christian. And putting aside
the fact that I'm a Christian, your argument is wholly fallacious,
not just for the living God, but for all gods. So there, I've
appealed to my own authority to assert that your assertion is
mistaken on the grounds that you cannot logically support your
own assertion.
I can no sooner provide any empiric foundation for the living God
than you can provide the same foundation against any god at all. Do
you get that?
If a god is mythical--i.e. believed in but not
actually real then
Again, you assume an empiric position. You cannot logically show
that these things are mythical. It follows then that I cannot
provide an empric foundation for the living God either.
On the basis that your statement above is an if ... then
proposition, and on the basis that the proposition assumes
empricism, the rest of what follows the word "then" is snipped
unread because it's arguing from a faulty and unproven premise.
And don't tell me to think about it. Not only do I have far
more capacity than you to think these things out, I have
thought them out, step by logical step, and you cannot prove
your original assertion, for any god of any kind, and I
cannot prove my assertion for the living God. So there you go.
Now, prove your assertion that "the mythical god does not
actually exist outside human imagination" or shut the ***** up.
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| User: "Mike Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
05 Mar 2004 10:02:33 AM |
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"Kadaitcha Man" <nospam@kadaitcha.cx> wrote:
=Mark Nutter wrote:
=
=> Because the mythical god does not actually exist
=> outside human imagination
=
=BZZZZT! Absolutely unprovable assertion.
BZZZZZZZTTTTTT!!!!! It's an "unprovable truth".
__________________________________________
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH
__________________________________________
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
"Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child;
but the rod of correction shall drive it far
from him." - Pr:22:15
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
05 Mar 2004 10:16:35 AM |
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On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Mike Smith wrote:
"Kadaitcha Man" <nospam@kadaitcha.cx> wrote:
=Mark Nutter wrote:
=> Because the mythical god does not actually exist
=> outside human imagination
=BZZZZT! Absolutely unprovable assertion.
BZZZZZZZTTTTTT!!!!! It's an "unprovable truth".
Isn't truth by its very nature verifiable? Is truth synonymous with
veracity?
"truth" from www.m-w.com
Main Entry: truth
Pronunciation: 'tr|th
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural truths /'tr|[th]z, 'tr|ths/
Etymology: Middle English trewthe, from Old English trEowth fidelity; akin
to Old English trEowe faithful -- more at TRUE
1 a archaic : FIDELITY, CONSTANCY b : sincerity in action, character, and
utterance
2 a (1) : the state of being the case : FACT (2) : the body of real
things, events, and facts : ACTUALITY (3) often capitalized : a
transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality b : a judgment, proposition,
or idea that is true or accepted as true <truths of thermodynamics> c :
the body of true statements and propositions
3 a : the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or
reality b chiefly British : TRUE 2 c : fidelity to an original or to a
standard
"veracity"
from www.m-w.com Main Entry: ve7rac7i7ty Pronunciation: v&-'ra-s&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
1 : devotion to the truth : TRUTHFULNESS
2 : power of conveying or perceiving truth
3 : conformity with truth or fact : ACCURACY
4 : something true <makes lies sound like veracities>
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking,
which leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy."
-- Robert Anton Wilson
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| User: "Mike Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
05 Mar 2004 02:40:12 PM |
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Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
=On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Mike Smith wrote:
=> "Kadaitcha Man" <nospam@kadaitcha.cx> wrote:
=> =Mark Nutter wrote:
=
=> => Because the mythical god does not actually exist
=> => outside human imagination
=
=> =BZZZZT! Absolutely unprovable assertion.
=
=> BZZZZZZZTTTTTT!!!!! It's an "unprovable truth".
=
=Isn't truth by its very nature verifiable?
Sometimes.
=Is truth synonymous with veracity?
I would think so.
I was only yanking K-man's chain. He tends to sweep
some of his assertions under the "unprovable truth"
rug, presumably to exempt them from normal standards
of support.
__________________________________________
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH
__________________________________________
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
"Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child;
but the rod of correction shall drive it far
from him." - Pr:22:15
.
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| User: "Kadaitcha Man" |
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| Title: Re: Top 12 Warning Signs of Mythical Gods |
06 Mar 2004 12:37:41 AM |
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Carol Lee Smith wrote:
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Mike Smith wrote:
"Kadaitcha Man" <nospam@kadaitcha.cx> wrote:
=Mark Nutter wrote:
=> Because the mythical god does not actually exist
=> outside human imagination
=BZZZZT! Absolutely unprovable assertion.
BZZZZZZZTTTTTT!!!!! It's an "unprovable truth".
Isn't truth by its very nature verifiable? Is truth synonymous with
veracity?
Not at all. Truth is truth, and truth is independent of veracity.
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