Religions > Atheism > TOPIC 3: IS SCIENCE THE "ROBERT TILTON PRAYER CLOTH" OF THE MODERN ERA?
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jonathan Hartley" |
| Date: |
10 Apr 2007 02:41:19 PM |
| Object: |
TOPIC 3: IS SCIENCE THE "ROBERT TILTON PRAYER CLOTH" OF THE MODERN ERA? |
Question: Do some scientists sell science like a televangelist sells
prosperity trinkets that promise instant gratification, or gratification
with no consequences?
In Sibling Society (1996) Robert Bly describes American culture as one of
children who have never matured into adulthood. Going beyond his book's
premise, is America a high tech culture that degenerated from adulthood back
to adolescence and the "have it all now with no thought for the future"
philosophy? Is science selling out instead of bringing about the world of
reason visualized in "Star Trek?"
Does this sibling society profit from the abuse of technology and
unrestrained science? Does it produce baseline human beings who are greedy
and acculturated to a hyper-consumerism which is somehow called good
citizenship?. Sadly, it is the unchecked and unbridled explosion of
technology, driven by science, that has fueled the engine of post-religious
America. We cannot blame the Pope or Pat Robertson or Jerry Faldwell for:
the landfills full of tires, the dying oceans, the global warming, the
threat of nuclear annihilation, the explosion of old people burdening
retirement systems, the use of television to rot and stunt the minds of
children, the reliance upon quacks and charlatans "scientific education
techniques." While out-of-control technology continues to belch out streams
of consumerist pollution into the cultural air, we sit back and wring our
hands about "the fundies trying to set up a nativity scene in front of the
post office!"
Much of modern science is filled with unrestrained, culturally adolescent
"geniuses" playing with forces they do not handle discreetly. These proud
and arrogant cultists have been "freed from the bondage of religion", but
nurture the materialistic "monster on a thin leash" they created. Many
express no concern that one day they may hand the leash to jihadists or
petty tyrants who have no qualms about turning the monster loose with
nuclear fury.
The most notable exception would be the meager effort by science to curb
global warming. It is a belated effort, but an effort rightfully so, since
science played a major role in causing the problem in the first place. And
they labor away at it while yet other scientists look for ways to increase
it and cause other environmental problems with no guilt or shame. And they
are being highly paid by their corporate masters. Raw, naked ambition in
the most destructive form. And meanwhile, Iranian scientists are living in
luxury as they toil away at building warheads for the Ayatollahs to use in
superstitious jihad.
How ironic
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| User: "Jim07D7" |
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| Title: Re: TOPIC 3: IS SCIENCE THE "ROBERT TILTON PRAYER CLOTH" OF THE MODERN ERA? |
10 Apr 2007 03:38:22 PM |
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"Jonathan Hartley" <jhartley@knology.net> said:
Question: Do some scientists sell science like a televangelist sells
prosperity trinkets that promise instant gratification, or gratification
with no consequences?
Answer: Some people do science, and evangelize for it in their spare
time. So?
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| User: "skddlbyp" |
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| Title: Re: TOPIC 3: IS SCIENCE THE "ROBERT TILTON PRAYER CLOTH" OF THE MODERN ERA? |
10 Apr 2007 04:24:44 PM |
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Much of modern science is filled with unrestrained, culturally adolescent
"geniuses" playing with forces they do not handle discreetly.
Possibly relevant to this somehow is a contrast of divine creativity to
human creativity.
The determining feature of divine creativity is not necessarily creatio
ex nihilo, something out of nothing. The distinction between some thing and
no thing has been eased somewhat by the distinction between matter and
energy.
There are said to be three determining criteria for divine creativity:
1. The product is absolutely novel and completely original.
2. Only God could produce it.
3. Man cannot reproduce it.
(2) and (3) seem to rule out artificial intelligence as being a human
challenge to, or substitute for, divine creativity.
(1) seems to rule out any human creation, for what human creation does
not have its basis or it's antibasis in the past, or in being alive at a
certain time?
The thought occurs to me that perhaps emergent properties in nature
fulfill all three criteria. Robert Laughlin, a physicist, says that no
emergent property has ever been predicted.
So what does all this have to do with scientific misbehavior? Since
God's creative wisdom is so far beyond man's as to be incomprehensible,
except, perhaps, by gradual accumulation of knowledge - possibly man will
never understand any real thing completely - then maybe scientists should
form prayer groups, and seek divine guidance before actually putting any
problematic proposal into practice, or at least they should consider all the
moral implications before acting hastily. Of course, then they might not get
paid - but that's their problem.
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: TOPIC 3: IS SCIENCE THE "ROBERT TILTON PRAYER CLOTH" OF THE MODERN ERA? |
10 Apr 2007 03:49:45 PM |
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On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:24:44 -0500, "skddlbyp" <ghmvdj@fnp.aiu> wrote:
Much of modern science is filled with unrestrained, culturally adolescent
"geniuses" playing with forces they do not handle discreetly.
Possibly relevant to this somehow is a contrast of divine creativity to
human creativity.
The determining feature of divine creativity is not necessarily creatio
ex nihilo, something out of nothing. The distinction between some thing and
no thing has been eased somewhat by the distinction between matter and
energy.
There are said to be three determining criteria for divine creativity:
1. The product is absolutely novel and completely original.
2. Only God could produce it.
3. Man cannot reproduce it.
(2) and (3) seem to rule out artificial intelligence as being a human
challenge to, or substitute for, divine creativity.
(1) seems to rule out any human creation, for what human creation does
not have its basis or it's antibasis in the past, or in being alive at a
certain time?
The thought occurs to me that perhaps emergent properties in nature
fulfill all three criteria. Robert Laughlin, a physicist, says that no
emergent property has ever been predicted.
So what does all this have to do with scientific misbehavior? Since
God's creative wisdom is so far beyond man's as to be incomprehensible,
except, perhaps, by gradual accumulation of knowledge - possibly man will
never understand any real thing completely - then maybe scientists should
form prayer groups, and seek divine guidance before actually putting any
problematic proposal into practice, or at least they should consider all the
moral implications before acting hastily. Of course, then they might not get
paid - but that's their problem.
<yawn> That's nice. Take it out of alt.atheism, please.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: TOPIC 3: IS SCIENCE THE "ROBERT TILTON PRAYER CLOTH" OF THE MODERN ERA? |
10 Apr 2007 03:43:33 PM |
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On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:24:44 -0500, "skddlbyp" <ghmvdj@fnp.aiu> wrote:
Much of modern science is filled with unrestrained, culturally adolescent
"geniuses" playing with forces they do not handle discreetly.
Possibly relevant to this somehow is a contrast of divine creativity to
human creativity.
The determining feature of divine creativity is not necessarily creatio
ex nihilo, something out of nothing. The distinction between some thing and
no thing has been eased somewhat by the distinction between matter and
energy.
There are said to be three determining criteria for divine creativity:
1. The product is absolutely novel and completely original.
Define your terms, and criteria for judging their fulfillment.
2. Only God could produce it.
How do you determine this?
3. Man cannot reproduce it.
How do you determine that man can never accomplish a particular thing?
100 years ago, the computer you're reading this on would have seemed a
magical fantasy.
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
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| User: "Alric Knebel" |
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| Title: Re: TOPIC 3: IS SCIENCE THE "ROBERT TILTON PRAYER CLOTH" OF THEMODERN ERA? |
10 Apr 2007 10:33:00 PM |
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skddlbyp wrote:
Much of modern science is filled with unrestrained, culturally adolescent
"geniuses" playing with forces they do not handle discreetly.
Possibly relevant to this somehow is a contrast of divine creativity to
human creativity.
The determining feature of divine creativity is not necessarily creatio
ex nihilo, something out of nothing. The distinction between some thing and
no thing has been eased somewhat by the distinction between matter and
energy.
There are said to be three determining criteria for divine creativity:
1. The product is absolutely novel and completely original.
2. Only God could produce it.
3. Man cannot reproduce it.
(2) and (3) seem to rule out artificial intelligence as being a human
challenge to, or substitute for, divine creativity.
(1) seems to rule out any human creation, for what human creation does
not have its basis or it's antibasis in the past, or in being alive at a
certain time?
The thought occurs to me that perhaps emergent properties in nature
fulfill all three criteria. Robert Laughlin, a physicist, says that no
emergent property has ever been predicted.
So what does all this have to do with scientific misbehavior? Since
God's creative wisdom is so far beyond man's as to be incomprehensible,
except, perhaps, by gradual accumulation of knowledge - possibly man will
never understand any real thing completely - then maybe scientists should
form prayer groups, and seek divine guidance before actually putting any
problematic proposal into practice, or at least they should consider all the
moral implications before acting hastily. Of course, then they might not get
paid - but that's their problem.
Actually your premise is flawed at point 2. It's too obvious why.
--
______________________________________________
Alric Knebel
http://www.ironeyefortress.com/C-SPAN_loon.html
http://www.ironeyefortress.com
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: TOPIC 3: IS SCIENCE THE "ROBERT TILTON PRAYER CLOTH" OF THE MODERN ERA? |
10 Apr 2007 03:28:25 PM |
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On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:41:19 -0400, "Jonathan Hartley"
<jhartley@knology.net> wrote:
Question: Do some scientists sell science like a televangelist sells
prosperity trinkets that promise instant gratification, or gratification
with no consequences?
"Those scientists are all alike. They say they're working for us, but
what they really want is to rule the world!"
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
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| User: "Alric Knebel" |
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| Title: Re: TOPIC 3: IS SCIENCE THE "ROBERT TILTON PRAYER CLOTH" OF THEMODERN ERA? |
10 Apr 2007 10:34:52 PM |
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raven1 wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:41:19 -0400, "Jonathan Hartley"
<jhartley@knology.net> wrote:
Question: Do some scientists sell science like a televangelist sells
prosperity trinkets that promise instant gratification, or gratification
with no consequences?
"Those scientists are all alike. They say they're working for us, but
what they really want is to rule the world!"
And . . .
"What hump?"
--
______________________________________________
Alric Knebel
http://www.ironeyefortress.com/C-SPAN_loon.html
http://www.ironeyefortress.com
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: TOPIC 3: IS SCIENCE THE "ROBERT TILTON PRAYER CLOTH" OF THE MODERN ERA? |
10 Apr 2007 11:26:26 PM |
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On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 22:34:52 -0500, Alric Knebel
<alric@[cableone.net]> wrote:
raven1 wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:41:19 -0400, "Jonathan Hartley"
<jhartley@knology.net> wrote:
Question: Do some scientists sell science like a televangelist sells
prosperity trinkets that promise instant gratification, or gratification
with no consequences?
"Those scientists are all alike. They say they're working for us, but
what they really want is to rule the world!"
And . . .
"What hump?"
"Blucher!"
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
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| User: "Alric Knebel" |
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| Title: Re: TOPIC 3: IS SCIENCE THE "ROBERT TILTON PRAYER CLOTH" OF THEMODERN ERA? |
10 Apr 2007 10:34:17 PM |
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raven1 wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:41:19 -0400, "Jonathan Hartley"
<jhartley@knology.net> wrote:
Question: Do some scientists sell science like a televangelist sells
prosperity trinkets that promise instant gratification, or gratification
with no consequences?
"Those scientists are all alike. They say they're working for us, but
what they really want is to rule the world!"
LOL!!!!!!
"Put . . . the . . . candle . . . BACK!"
--
______________________________________________
Alric Knebel
http://www.ironeyefortress.com/C-SPAN_loon.html
http://www.ironeyefortress.com
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: TOPIC 3: IS SCIENCE THE "ROBERT TILTON PRAYER CLOTH" OF THE MODERN ERA? |
10 Apr 2007 11:27:22 PM |
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On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 22:34:17 -0500, Alric Knebel
<alric@[cableone.net]> wrote:
raven1 wrote:
On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:41:19 -0400, "Jonathan Hartley"
<jhartley@knology.net> wrote:
Question: Do some scientists sell science like a televangelist sells
prosperity trinkets that promise instant gratification, or gratification
with no consequences?
"Those scientists are all alike. They say they're working for us, but
what they really want is to rule the world!"
LOL!!!!!!
"Put . . . the . . . candle . . . BACK!"
"SEDAGIVE?!?!?"
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: TOPIC 3: IS SCIENCE THE "ROBERT TILTON PRAYER CLOTH" OF THE MODERN ERA? |
10 Apr 2007 10:44:03 PM |
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On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:41:19 -0400, "Jonathan Hartley"
<jhartley@knology.net> wrote:
Question: Do some scientists sell science like a televangelist sells
prosperity trinkets that promise instant gratification, or gratification
with no consequences?
How does one "sell science"? One can sell technology, but technology
isn't science.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: TOPIC 3: IS SCIENCE THE "ROBERT TILTON PRAYER CLOTH" OF THE MODERN ERA? |
10 Apr 2007 03:04:27 PM |
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On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:41:19 -0400, in alt.atheism , "Jonathan
Hartley" <jhartley@knology.net> in
<9cd8$461be85e$1860a0d0$10081@KNOLOGY.NET> wrote:
Question: Do some scientists sell science like a televangelist sells
prosperity trinkets that promise instant gratification, or gratification
with no consequences?
Some do, most don't. Ever talk to an actual scientist?
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: TOPIC 3: IS SCIENCE THE "ROBERT TILTON PRAYER CLOTH" OF THE MODERN ERA? |
10 Apr 2007 04:50:25 PM |
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On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:41:19 -0400, Jonathan Hartley wrote:
The most notable exception would be the meager effort by science
Look up the fallacy of reification some time won't you?
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing
it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
- H. L. Mencken
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