On 4 Oct 2003 17:36:46 -0700,

Nothing has changed - "Vengence is mine", says the Lord.
Shirley, you're not talking just about the quotation marks.

No, I was talking about how you got the quote wrong.

Didn't, did I.

Yes, you did,

Nah.

Nope - due to A&E, we are left to our own god-level capabilities.

Then why has god ordered people to be killed?

Always a case of evil, false/idol worship/let my people go, etc.

In other words, you got that wrong, too. It wasn't just war or
self-defense that allowed people to kill. There is, like I said, a
whole list of exceptions, which apparently change depending on god's
mood.

You're apparently confusing things that happen with things that God "allows" to
happen basis a change in his mind.

You lose again. When A&E did their thing, God sent man out of hte garden and
left man to his own actions, but with a call to repent.

Too bad you don't understand that.

Christ still said: I give you a new commandment - that you love
one another as God loves you.

Doesn't address my point, as usual.

Then again, no one knows what you're asking.

Because you snipped it.

I didn't snip anything until I ascertained that you were totally lost again.

It's pretty clear you don't understand what the bible is or what it says.

What's clear is that you don't understand what I'm saying, never have,
and never will. Or you're pretending.

I have no idea where you're trying to go with the way you quote some things.

I'm not at all surprized.

You need to learn to "elloquate" better.

Then again, who knows what you're trying to say. That usually happens when
people like you think others can read your mind.

Or when people like me expect people like you to be able to understand
English.

The langauge is not the problem - it's someone such as yourself that can't even
ask an understandable question.

Nope, you're lying. Something you claim you never do. Can't you try
just a little harder?

Nope - I never lie on the ng. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Sure you do - that's why you snipped it. You think lies go away if
you can't see them. You're kind of like an infant that way.

I never snip until I determine "what this weird dude is trying to ask". A
statement/comment/question as void of sense/tiedown as you are prone to ask is
just wasting e-space.

I know this is over your head, but you must learn to present your idea, then
clearly ask a question pertinent to that idea.

Here's that little exchange:
JessHC: Being christian does not prevent one becoming confused,
and being confused does not prevent one being a christian.
Witness yourself.
Duke Sorry, being confused is preventing you from being a Christian.
JessHC: Non-sequitur.
Duke: Truthful.

At which point I posted the "Nope, you're lying" bit

I'm not lying. that's your problem.

It is evident
that being christian does not prevent an individual from being
confused, or else there wouldn't be so many disparate interpretations
of what your little book says.

No, your problem is that you demand that the bible be like a Harry Potter story
with a clear development of the story line. The inspired part of the bible is
beyond question. The non-inspired actions in the story may be literal and may
not be.

I don't even try to reconcile all the
contradictions and errors in your book, because I don't want to become
confused.

There's no room for the completely confused to become even more confused.

Therefore, being confused is in fact NOT preventing me from
being a christian; the desire for lack of confusion is what made me
give up christianity.

Can't be - you clearly don't understand what is going on.

I'm making sense; you're living in denial of reality. It's to be
expected from someone who's nuts on a whole lot of levels.

You're only making sense to yourself.

Really? Have you asked around? Maybe if there's anybody left who
hasn't plonked you and is still reading this thread, they'll chime in
on who's making sense.

I realize there are few that will give me the credit I am due for the real
accuracy I present. I don't expect atheists to even want to consider the
accuracy of my words.

Certainly love everybody is a pleasant concept, but unfortunately, god
frequently shows his love by homicide and genocide. Just like Hitler.

Sorry, God loves the sinner, but hates the sin. Hitler gassed 6 million
jews out of hatred for them.

Doesn't address the point.

It clearly addresses my guess at what you're trying to say.

Then you're confused.

That's what I said - I have no idea what you are trying to say sometimes.

The point is that your little god, if he really
exists, is guilty of more murder than all human killers combined. He
kills people when he gets tired of playing with them. He kills people
when they don't do what he says. He kills people if they aren't on
his team. He kills people that ARE on his team. He kills people when
he can't think of anything better to do. He kills people through
disease, age, accidents, and war. He lets people die when he can't be
bothered to save them. The difference between god and Hitler was that
Hitler *thought* he was doing god's work; god was certain.

Quite wrong. God never killed anyone. But he has destroyed the source of all
the world's evil, like in the flood

As far as disease, age, accident, and war, these are man-made failures. When
A&E did their thing trying to be as gods themselves by disobeying God, they were
ushered out the garden to practice their godliness fully up to their limits of
ability. They failed, and here we are today - disease, age, accident, war,
etc..

Didn't I explain that to you many times before?

Absolutely true, as only Christ has never sinned. However, we are called to
hear and repent.

It's easy for a mythological person to avoid sin.

And there's no such thing as sin without said person calling for repentance.

Now I don't understand what *you're* tyring to say. Are you trying to
claim that if somebody didn't invent Yeshua, there would be no sin? I
like that idea.

No, I said that if man didn't embrace sin, there would be no need to call for
repentance.

Or do you consider you full life style perfect for mankind.

Are you saying that there is no such thing as sin?

I wasn't, but thanks; now I am. There is no such thing as sin; sin is
entirely dependent upon the religious or philosophical bias of the
observer. Are you trying to say it's a sin to kill unless god tells
you to? That's pretty scary.

Well, God never tells us to sin, or to kill. However he does recognize that
self defense and warriors called to act are doing so righteously.

<snip>

And lies, tricks, cheats, and murders.

Nah, God is all love/truth/good.

Then why does the bible have all those stories about god lying to,
cheating, tricking, and murdering his children? He lied to his first
child, and hasn't stopped since.

There aren't any such stories. It's all man's doing starting with the "tree".

You have a clear idea what he professed when he gassed 6 million Jews. And it
wasn't God.

It sure was; he even wrote it down. You just don't like having him in
your club.

He clearly wasn't.

<snip>

He ordered the war, for what was no very good reason.

Intelligence then vs intelligence now are two different things. The
intelligence then said "we are under eminent threat". Even 'rat klinton said
that.

Sure. And the funny thing is, he lied about the intelligence they
had. Just like a good christian.

'rat klinton lied? Oh, noooooooooooooo.

Even today, this special investigator states he still doesn't know one way or
the other if saddam had WMD's. Thank you President George Bush for acting for
the safety of the American people.

And President George W. Bush used the same info. Thank you President George W.
Bush.

Yep; thanks for making the world that much less stable and safe.

Terrorism is being squashed these days.

My President George W. Bush did what he did to bring the fight to the
terrorist's soil before the terrorists brought it back to US soil, by waiting
for it like the 'rat klinton did.

Really? Then why didn't he go to Sauidi Arabia?

The threats were not coming from people who were in Saudi. The money may very
well be Saudi. But the threat was from people elsewhere.

Hitler gassed 6 million Jews because he hated them.

No, Hitler gassed 6 million jews (and something like 4 to 6 million
other people) because he thought god wanted him to eliminate the "bad"
element. Just like god eliminated the "bad" element so many times
before.

No because he hated the Jews.

quib sounds like he could have done a better job.
So?

Quib COULDN'T do a better job. He's limited out.

You're contradicting yourself. Here, let me point it out: "quib
sounds like he could have done a better job" does not equal "Quib
COULDN'T do a better job. He's limited out." Those sentence are what
we call "opposites."

Not really - I was giving quib more credit initially.

So god, who is supposed to be perfect and omniscient, changed his
mind. Which means either he was wrong about something before, or he's
wrong about something now.

Nope - the old covenenat giving way to the new covenant, his becoming man, etc
was the plan for all eternity.

How is that *not* god changing his mind? He decided that killing
would be okay for a while, and then he should stop?

His plan all along was the introduction of himself with his chosen people, the
Hebrew, then to expand from an animal sacrifice approach to himself as an act
of sacrifice.

Now I grant you that you and I would not have done things the same way, but God
had his reasons, and here we are today.

Too bad the
quote you're referring to was of a poster to this thread (I think it
was quibbler, but you've snipped the attributions again), and not of a
specific bible passage.

Quib is as loose as a goose. Not very bible knowledgable.

Doesn't address my point.

Well, you know quib.

What is that supposed to me? You're blaming quibbler for your failure
to address my point?

Between you and quib, I'm not real sure of the point. Can you restate?

Great, except you still haven't answered the question, which is pretty
dishonest, and the only thing you've shown is that you either can't
understand what's being said to you, or can't admit you're wrong.

Actually, you don't know how to ask a question so others know what
you're trying to say. Sorta like you're just babbling. If you want
an answer, you need to learn how to communicate it.

You're the only one having problems, and you're having them with
virtually everybody.

Yeah, you atheists really don't know what you're talking about, so it's
difficult to answer your question when your knowledge base is suspect.

The parsimonious asnwer is that you're the one
who needs to learn how to communicate, but you'll deny or otherwise
avoid that point, too. Had you read *just two more sentences*, you
would have seen where I rephrased the question to make it simple
enough an 8yo could understand. And yet, it was beyond you, who is
supposed to be educated and 61yo.

You and a lot of other clueless people are talking, and it's hard to keep track
of one silly statement from another.

That's why I'd like you to specifically repeat your question.

And
what's your right hand so busy doing? Here's the question, again, in
context, which you snipped out so you could pretend you'd answered it:
"Here, I'll rephrase it for you, so you can fail to understand again:
"It is interesting how xers try to read over and around Judges 11:39
instead of thinking ill of their god." Now, what do you think that
sentence means?

Ah, there's the comment.

Judges 11
39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had
vowed. And she was a virgin.

1. A deal is a deal.
2. Don't wish for something you're not ready to give.
3. Think before you talk.

How many times can you answer a question that wasn't asked? "It is
interesting how xers try to read over and around Judges 11:39 instead
of thinking ill of their god." Now, what do you think that sentence
means?

And I answered above. And below.

Here's a hint; it's not a question about Judges 11:39, it's
actually a question about christians (like you, it turns out) who can
read the passge, see that it involves a father killing his daughter
because that's what he promised god, see god NOT stepping in to stop
him, and then say, "Yep, that god sure is loving." I'll condense that
for you: It's not about the passage, it's about the christians reading
the passge.

The answer is really very easy. Once A&E did their thing, and got themselves
kicked out the garden, man was left to his own vices. It's not a matter of God
stepping in to avoid a bad situation, but that said dude thought he could make a
deal with God. But then he used his good fortune on the battle field and his
fierce desire to follow thru with his deal he perceived he made to do his
daughter in.

What happened there is perfectly understandable, and is the same conditions we
face today. God does not cut a deal. He says repent, and that's that.

By the way, you forgot
4. Kill your children.

But it probably is a precursor to the concept of Jesus' coming will cause
friction between Father and Mother, son against daughter, parent against child,
etc. That is, if you want to be the disciple of Jesus, you must not look back
but instead leave all your past behind you.

And kill your children.

You see, the OT foretells the NT.

And, amusingly enough, the rest of time. People killing people for
god.

Nope, people killing people for what they mistakenly think is a deal.