Religions > Atheism > Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Michael Gray" |
| Date: |
20 Aug 2005 04:59:25 AM |
| Object: |
Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg18725124.200
(Subscription required for full article)
Article preview:
Tribal language has no words for colours....
* 13 August 2005
* Duncan Graham-Rowe
* Magazine issue 2512
Consider a world without words for colour, numbers or tales about
imaginary beings. A tribe in Brazil may already live in such a world
IMAGINE a world without words for colour, numbers or tales about
imaginary beings. A tribe in a remote area of Brazil may live in just
such a world, because their language lacks the words for such concepts
and only allows people to talk about material things they have
experienced directly.
Previous analysis of Pirahă, a language spoken by only 200 people in
Amazonas, Brazil, suggested that it had some limited words for colours
and at least the words for "one", "two" and "many". But further
analysis by Daniel Everett at the University of Manchester, UK,
reveals that these "words" are in fact phrases. "They are
descriptions, and can vary from time to time," he says. For example,
bio-pai-ai means "black", but translates literally as "blood is
dirty".
Everett also argues that Pirahă is the only known language without
numbers, numerals or a concept of counting. Words which were
previously assumed ...
:
According to Everett, Pirahă culture does not require its people to
talk about abstract concepts, gods, spirits or other things that they
have not experienced at first hand.
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| User: "G*rd*n" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
20 Aug 2005 07:28:04 AM |
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Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com>:
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg18725124.200
(Subscription required for full article)
Article preview:
Tribal language has no words for colours....
* 13 August 2005
* Duncan Graham-Rowe
* Magazine issue 2512
Consider a world without words for colour, numbers or tales about
imaginary beings. A tribe in Brazil may already live in such a world
IMAGINE a world without words for colour, numbers or tales about
imaginary beings. A tribe in a remote area of Brazil may live in just
such a world, because their language lacks the words for such concepts
and only allows people to talk about material things they have
experienced directly.
Previous analysis of Pirahă, a language spoken by only 200 people in
Amazonas, Brazil, suggested that it had some limited words for colours
and at least the words for "one", "two" and "many". But further
analysis by Daniel Everett at the University of Manchester, UK,
reveals that these "words" are in fact phrases. "They are
descriptions, and can vary from time to time," he says. For example,
bio-pai-ai means "black", but translates literally as "blood is
dirty".
Everett also argues that Pirahă is the only known language without
numbers, numerals or a concept of counting. Words which were
previously assumed ...
:
According to Everett, Pirahă culture does not require its people to
talk about abstract concepts, gods, spirits or other things that they
have not experienced at first hand.
But a lot of people experience gods, spirits, numbers (low
integers, anyway) and colors first-hand. Distinguishing
between material phenomena and imagination, hallucination,
illusion, dream, memory and so forth takes a certain amount
of abstraction and analysis.
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| User: "Wiktor S." |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
23 Aug 2005 07:03:58 AM |
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But
further analysis by Daniel Everett at the University of Manchester,
UK, reveals that these "words" are in fact phrases. "They are
descriptions, and can vary from time to time," he says. For example,
bio-pai-ai means "black", but translates literally as "blood is
dirty".
What's wrong with bio-ai-pai? It may mean "blood is dirty" AND "black" at
the same time. If people know by context that by "bio-ai-pai" you mean
"black" and not "blood is dirty", then it DOES mean "black".
--
Azarien
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
23 Aug 2005 09:47:07 AM |
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On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:03:58 +0200, in alt.atheism , "Wiktor S."
<wswiktorSP@AMpoczta.fm> in <def3b6$rsj$1@news.onet.pl> wrote:
But
further analysis by Daniel Everett at the University of Manchester,
UK, reveals that these "words" are in fact phrases. "They are
descriptions, and can vary from time to time," he says. For example,
bio-pai-ai means "black", but translates literally as "blood is
dirty".
What's wrong with bio-ai-pai? It may mean "blood is dirty" AND "black" at
the same time. If people know by context that by "bio-ai-pai" you mean
"black" and not "blood is dirty", then it DOES mean "black".
So it is a metaphor. And somehow these people are unable to discuss
imaginary beings? Someone is being lied to here.
--
Matt Silberstein
And now our bodies are oh so close and tight
It never felt so good, it never felt so right
And we're glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife
C'mon! Hold on tight!
C'mon! Hold on tight!
Though it's cold and lonley in the deep dark night
I can see paradise by the dashboard light
Paradise by the dashboard light
Jim Steinman
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| User: "Peter T. Daniels" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
23 Aug 2005 07:10:05 AM |
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Wiktor S. wrote:
But
further analysis by Daniel Everett at the University of Manchester,
UK, reveals that these "words" are in fact phrases. "They are
descriptions, and can vary from time to time," he says. For example,
bio-pai-ai means "black", but translates literally as "blood is
dirty".
What's wrong with bio-ai-pai? It may mean "blood is dirty" AND "black" at
the same time. If people know by context that by "bio-ai-pai" you mean
"black" and not "blood is dirty", then it DOES mean "black".
It's not a "basic color term" in the Kay & Berlin sense.
Though it does indicate that Everett (or his hoaxters) is being rather
more than a bit disingenuous.
--
Peter T. Daniels
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| User: "Peter T. Daniels" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
20 Aug 2005 11:58:42 AM |
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G*rd*n wrote:
Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com>:
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg18725124.200
(Subscription required for full article)
Article preview:
Tribal language has no words for colours....
* 13 August 2005
* Duncan Graham-Rowe
* Magazine issue 2512
Consider a world without words for colour, numbers or tales about
imaginary beings. A tribe in Brazil may already live in such a world
IMAGINE a world without words for colour, numbers or tales about
imaginary beings. A tribe in a remote area of Brazil may live in just
such a world, because their language lacks the words for such concepts
and only allows people to talk about material things they have
experienced directly.
Previous analysis of Pirahă, a language spoken by only 200 people in
Amazonas, Brazil, suggested that it had some limited words for colours
and at least the words for "one", "two" and "many". But further
analysis by Daniel Everett at the University of Manchester, UK,
reveals that these "words" are in fact phrases. "They are
descriptions, and can vary from time to time," he says. For example,
bio-pai-ai means "black", but translates literally as "blood is
dirty".
Everett also argues that Pirahă is the only known language without
numbers, numerals or a concept of counting. Words which were
previously assumed ...
:
According to Everett, Pirahă culture does not require its people to
talk about abstract concepts, gods, spirits or other things that they
have not experienced at first hand.
But a lot of people experience gods, spirits, numbers (low
integers, anyway) and colors first-hand. Distinguishing
between material phenomena and imagination, hallucination,
illusion, dream, memory and so forth takes a certain amount
of abstraction and analysis.
Where's Jacques Guy when you need him? His hypothesis that either
Everett was being conned by some clever Pirahăs who were taking his
money, or Everett himself is making this stuff up (like the "gentle
Tasaday").
Guy also showed that the texts published so far as "Pirahă" cannot be
analyzed to conform with what Everett claims about them.
See sci.lang archives.
--
Peter T. Daniels
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
20 Aug 2005 04:34:11 PM |
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On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:28:04 +0000 (UTC), (G*rd*n)
wrote:
Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com>:
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg18725124.200
(Subscription required for full article)
Article preview:
Tribal language has no words for colours....
* 13 August 2005
* Duncan Graham-Rowe
* Magazine issue 2512
Consider a world without words for colour, numbers or tales about
imaginary beings. A tribe in Brazil may already live in such a world
IMAGINE a world without words for colour, numbers or tales about
imaginary beings. A tribe in a remote area of Brazil may live in just
such a world, because their language lacks the words for such concepts
and only allows people to talk about material things they have
experienced directly.
Previous analysis of Pirah?a language spoken by only 200 people in
Amazonas, Brazil, suggested that it had some limited words for colours
and at least the words for "one", "two" and "many". But further
analysis by Daniel Everett at the University of Manchester, UK,
reveals that these "words" are in fact phrases. "They are
descriptions, and can vary from time to time," he says. For example,
bio-pai-ai means "black", but translates literally as "blood is
dirty".
Everett also argues that Pirah?s the only known language without
numbers, numerals or a concept of counting. Words which were
previously assumed ...
:
According to Everett, Pirah?ulture does not require its people to
talk about abstract concepts, gods, spirits or other things that they
have not experienced at first hand.
But a lot of people experience gods, spirits, numbers (low
integers, anyway) and colors first-hand. Distinguishing
Correction:
A lot of people have experiences that they label as "gods", "spirits".
Its a vast and unjustifiable leap over an intellectual chasm to go
directly from "saying that a thing exists", to that thing actually
existing.
between material phenomena and imagination, hallucination,
illusion, dream, memory and so forth takes a certain amount
of abstraction and analysis.
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| User: "G*rd*n" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
20 Aug 2005 05:46:22 PM |
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Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com>:
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg18725124.200
(Subscription required for full article)
Article preview:
Tribal language has no words for colours....
* 13 August 2005
* Duncan Graham-Rowe
* Magazine issue 2512
Consider a world without words for colour, numbers or tales about
imaginary beings. A tribe in Brazil may already live in such a world
IMAGINE a world without words for colour, numbers or tales about
imaginary beings. A tribe in a remote area of Brazil may live in just
such a world, because their language lacks the words for such concepts
and only allows people to talk about material things they have
experienced directly.
Previous analysis of Pirah?a language spoken by only 200 people in
Amazonas, Brazil, suggested that it had some limited words for colours
and at least the words for "one", "two" and "many". But further
analysis by Daniel Everett at the University of Manchester, UK,
reveals that these "words" are in fact phrases. "They are
descriptions, and can vary from time to time," he says. For example,
bio-pai-ai means "black", but translates literally as "blood is
dirty".
Everett also argues that Pirah?s the only known language without
numbers, numerals or a concept of counting. Words which were
previously assumed ...
:
According to Everett, Pirah?ulture does not require its people to
talk about abstract concepts, gods, spirits or other things that they
have not experienced at first hand.
gcf@panix.com (G*rd*n):
But a lot of people experience gods, spirits, numbers (low
integers, anyway) and colors first-hand. ...
Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com>:
Correction:
A lot of people have experiences that they label as "gods", "spirits".
Its a vast and unjustifiable leap over an intellectual chasm to go
directly from "saying that a thing exists", to that thing actually
existing.
...
I wasn't exerting judgement on the epistemological and
ontological validity of other people's experiences, but
rather commenting on the nature of those experiences, which
are as they are regardless of their ultimate truth in the
great scheme of things. Whatever that may be.
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| User: "Greg Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
20 Aug 2005 08:20:58 PM |
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What non-complex words does English have for tales about
imaginary beings?
--
Greg Lee <greg@ling.lll.hawaii.edu>
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| User: "G*rd*n" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
21 Aug 2005 09:28:44 AM |
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Greg Lee <greg@ling.lll.hawaii.edu>:
What non-complex words does English have for tales about
imaginary beings?
There are a number of them, because the English language is
a feature of an intellectual community which has made a
significant effort to distinguish between different kinds
of phenomena with respect to whether they are "real" or
"imaginary", material or mental or abstract, and so on.
It's something people have been discussing for millennia
and are still arguing about.
Saying that one phenomenon is _material_ and another isn't
requires a lot of analysis, and it surprised me that a small
isolated tribe in the Brazilian jungle had gone to all this
trouble and then carefully excluded the non-material
phenomena from its language.
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| User: "Peter T. Daniels" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
21 Aug 2005 07:25:21 AM |
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Greg Lee wrote:
What non-complex words does English have for tales about
imaginary beings?
myth, legend, fable, tale, dream, story ...
--
Peter T. Daniels
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| User: "Lee Rudolph" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
21 Aug 2005 07:49:40 AM |
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"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> writes:
Greg Lee wrote:
What non-complex words does English have for tales about
imaginary beings?
myth, legend, fable, tale, dream, story ...
.... e-mail ...
Lee Rudolph
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| User: "Paul J Kriha" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
22 Aug 2005 03:12:59 AM |
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Lee Rudolph <lrudolph@panix.com> wrote in message news:de9t94$fc6$1@panix2.panix.com...
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> writes:
Greg Lee wrote:
What non-complex words does English have for tales about
imaginary beings?
myth, legend, fable, tale, dream, story ...
... e-mail ...
Lee Rudolph
.... shooting witness statements ...
pjk
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
22 Aug 2005 08:07:24 AM |
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On 21 Aug 2005 08:49:40 -0400, in alt.atheism ,
(Lee Rudolph) in <de9t94$fc6$1@panix2.panix.com> wrote:
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> writes:
Greg Lee wrote:
What non-complex words does English have for tales about
imaginary beings?
myth, legend, fable, tale, dream, story ...
... e-mail ...
Usenet.
--
Matt Silberstein
And now our bodies are oh so close and tight
It never felt so good, it never felt so right
And we're glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife
C'mon! Hold on tight!
C'mon! Hold on tight!
Though it's cold and lonley in the deep dark night
I can see paradise by the dashboard light
Paradise by the dashboard light
Jim Steinman
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
20 Aug 2005 10:12:22 PM |
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Greg Lee wrote:
What non-complex words does English have for tales about
imaginary beings?
Fiction.
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, *
* the non-existence of Zeus or Thor - but they *
* have few followers now." Arthur C. Clarke *
****************************************************
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
20 Aug 2005 09:25:08 PM |
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On 21 Aug 2005 01:20:58 GMT, Greg Lee <greg@ling.lll.hawaii.edu>
wrote:
What non-complex words does English have for tales about
imaginary beings?
"god"
"pray"
"pixie"
Need I go on further?
You only need ask an english speaking 5 year old.
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| User: "Uncle Buck" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
21 Aug 2005 07:11:50 AM |
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On 21 Aug 2005 01:20:58 GMT, Greg Lee <greg@ling.lll.hawaii.edu>
wrote:
What non-complex words does English have for tales about
imaginary beings?
Myths.
WMDs.
You know, the usual suspects.
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=
http://surrenderingtothefall.blogspot.com
~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o
"I absolutely detest it when people quote
themselves." - Me
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
22 Aug 2005 08:06:58 AM |
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On 21 Aug 2005 01:20:58 GMT, in alt.atheism , Greg Lee
<greg@ling.lll.hawaii.edu> in <de8ktq$bn6$1@news.hawaii.edu> wrote:
What non-complex words does English have for tales about
imaginary beings?
tales
myths
stories
fiction
literature
HTH. HAND.
--
Matt Silberstein
And now our bodies are oh so close and tight
It never felt so good, it never felt so right
And we're glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife
C'mon! Hold on tight!
C'mon! Hold on tight!
Though it's cold and lonley in the deep dark night
I can see paradise by the dashboard light
Paradise by the dashboard light
Jim Steinman
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
22 Aug 2005 07:13:38 AM |
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On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:29:25 +0930, in alt.atheism , Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> in
<jhvdg1td94nsopn7i1rc51pojrbbtshm13@4ax.com> wrote:
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg18725124.200
(Subscription required for full article)
Article preview:
Tribal language has no words for colours....
* 13 August 2005
* Duncan Graham-Rowe
* Magazine issue 2512
Consider a world without words for colour, numbers or tales about
imaginary beings. A tribe in Brazil may already live in such a world
IMAGINE a world without words for colour, numbers or tales about
imaginary beings. A tribe in a remote area of Brazil may live in just
such a world, because their language lacks the words for such concepts
and only allows people to talk about material things they have
experienced directly.
Previous analysis of Pirahă, a language spoken by only 200 people in
Amazonas, Brazil, suggested that it had some limited words for colours
and at least the words for "one", "two" and "many". But further
analysis by Daniel Everett at the University of Manchester, UK,
reveals that these "words" are in fact phrases. "They are
descriptions, and can vary from time to time," he says. For example,
bio-pai-ai means "black", but translates literally as "blood is
dirty".
Everett also argues that Pirahă is the only known language without
numbers, numerals or a concept of counting. Words which were
previously assumed ...
:
According to Everett, Pirahă culture does not require its people to
talk about abstract concepts, gods, spirits or other things that they
have not experienced at first hand.
Sorry, but I don't believe this. I bet that this is refuted by some
later research. I doubt such a language is possible and certainly no
human language can avoid subjective statements.
--
Matt Silberstein
And now our bodies are oh so close and tight
It never felt so good, it never felt so right
And we're glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife
C'mon! Hold on tight!
C'mon! Hold on tight!
Though it's cold and lonley in the deep dark night
I can see paradise by the dashboard light
Paradise by the dashboard light
Jim Steinman
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| User: "rudo" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
20 Aug 2005 05:32:54 AM |
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as always whitey writes whats convenient to deem them worthless
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| User: "Elf M. Sternberg" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
20 Aug 2005 11:15:20 AM |
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"rudo" <itsoooook@yahoo.com> writes:
as always whitey writes whats convenient to deem them worthless
Huh? There's no evidence the researchers were "white."
Besides, the Piraha aren't "worthless"; on the contrary, they're worth
more than your average valley girl because they demonstrate that the
concept of a god or gods is dependent upon a certain degree of
technological sophistication: one must have the words and concepts to
discuss it.
The Piraha concept of limnality is equally fascinating.
Elf
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
22 Aug 2005 08:05:53 AM |
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On 20 Aug 2005 09:15:20 -0700, in alt.atheism , "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com> in <87slx4bn53.fsf@drizzle.com> wrote:
"rudo" <itsoooook@yahoo.com> writes:
as always whitey writes whats convenient to deem them worthless
Huh? There's no evidence the researchers were "white."
Besides, the Piraha aren't "worthless"; on the contrary, they're worth
more than your average valley girl
Nice bit of misogyny there.
because they demonstrate that the
concept of a god or gods is dependent upon a certain degree of
technological sophistication: one must have the words and concepts to
discuss it.
The Piraha concept of limnality is equally fascinating.
Rather impressive, determining the worth of a human being based on how
they demonstrate you political goals.
--
Matt Silberstein
And now our bodies are oh so close and tight
It never felt so good, it never felt so right
And we're glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife
C'mon! Hold on tight!
C'mon! Hold on tight!
Though it's cold and lonley in the deep dark night
I can see paradise by the dashboard light
Paradise by the dashboard light
Jim Steinman
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| User: "Elf M. Sternberg" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
22 Aug 2005 10:35:52 AM |
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Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
On 20 Aug 2005 09:15:20 -0700, in alt.atheism , "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com> in <87slx4bn53.fsf@drizzle.com> wrote:
"rudo" <itsoooook@yahoo.com> writes:
as always whitey writes whats convenient to deem them worthless
Huh? There's no evidence the researchers were "white."
Besides, the Piraha aren't "worthless"; on the contrary, they're worth
more than your average valley girl
Nice bit of misogyny there.
*Shrug*
because they demonstrate that the
concept of a god or gods is dependent upon a certain degree of
technological sophistication: one must have the words and concepts to
discuss it.
The Piraha concept of limnality is equally fascinating.
Rather impressive, determining the worth of a human being based on how
they demonstrate you political goals.
How do you get that from what I wrote? Their worth as a human
being is the same as any human being; as subjects of anthropology,
judging some groups to be more suitable to observation than others is
just that: good judgement.
Elf
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Tribal language has no words for tales about imaginary beings |
22 Aug 2005 12:32:31 PM |
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On 22 Aug 2005 08:35:52 -0700, in alt.atheism , "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com> in <87irxy9e7b.fsf@drizzle.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
On 20 Aug 2005 09:15:20 -0700, in alt.atheism , "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com> in <87slx4bn53.fsf@drizzle.com> wrote:
"rudo" <itsoooook@yahoo.com> writes:
as always whitey writes whats convenient to deem them worthless
Huh? There's no evidence the researchers were "white."
Besides, the Piraha aren't "worthless"; on the contrary, they're worth
more than your average valley girl
Nice bit of misogyny there.
*Shrug*
You are the one who is using "valley girls" as an example of
relatively worthless people.
because they demonstrate that the
concept of a god or gods is dependent upon a certain degree of
technological sophistication: one must have the words and concepts to
discuss it.
The Piraha concept of limnality is equally fascinating.
Rather impressive, determining the worth of a human being based on how
they demonstrate you political goals.
How do you get that from what I wrote? Their worth as a human
being is the same as any human being; as subjects of anthropology,
judging some groups to be more suitable to observation than others is
just that: good judgement.
And, yet, you say they are worth more. Go figure.
--
Matt Silberstein
And now our bodies are oh so close and tight
It never felt so good, it never felt so right
And we're glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife
C'mon! Hold on tight!
C'mon! Hold on tight!
Though it's cold and lonley in the deep dark night
I can see paradise by the dashboard light
Paradise by the dashboard light
Jim Steinman
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