| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" |
| Date: |
17 Oct 2003 06:56:10 PM |
| Object: |
Troops committing suicide |
"WASHINGTON - At least 13 U.S. troops have committed suicide in Iraq,
representing more than 10 percent of American noncombat deaths there,
and the Army dispatched a suicide-prevention expert to assess the
problem, officials said on Thursday.
At least 11 U.S. Army soldiers have committed suicide during Iraq
operations, most with self-inflicted gunshot wounds, and two Marines
have committed suicide using firearms, officials said.
One official said "a few more" Army deaths were being investigated as
possible suicides, and the Navy said the death of one service member
was under investigation. The Air Force said it had no such cases.
Army officials have expressed concern about the suicides, many of
which occurred after President Bush declared major combat operations
over in Iraq on May 1."
http://tinyurl.com/rd4e
--
"The concept of military necessity is seductively broad, and
has a dangerous plasticity. Because they invariably have the
visage of overriding importance, there is always a temptation
to invoke security "necessities" to justify an encroachment
upon civil liberties. For that reason, the military-security
argument must be approached with a healthy skepticism."
--Justice William Brennan
Tim
"Fair and Balanced"
.
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| User: "Anonymous Nobody" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
17 Oct 2003 07:01:36 PM |
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"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9417ACBE62C83timsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
"WASHINGTON - At least 13 U.S. troops have committed suicide in Iraq,
representing more than 10 percent of American noncombat deaths there,
and the Army dispatched a suicide-prevention expert to assess the
problem, officials said on Thursday.
At least 11 U.S. Army soldiers have committed suicide during Iraq
operations, most with self-inflicted gunshot wounds, and two Marines
have committed suicide using firearms, officials said.
One official said "a few more" Army deaths were being investigated as
possible suicides, and the Navy said the death of one service member
was under investigation. The Air Force said it had no such cases.
Army officials have expressed concern about the suicides, many of
which occurred after President Bush declared major combat operations
over in Iraq on May 1."
Omission of pertinent data in the article is letting your *bias* show,
buddy:
"When war is actually going on, behavioral experts say the soldiers aren't
as likely to commit suicide during that period. While they're fighting,
they're not thinking about their problems. But once open hostilities cease
and the peacekeeping part begins, for some soldiers that can be very
rewarding work but for some (others) it can be very stressful," Rudd said.
She also noted that troops in Iraq have guns readily available, enabling
them to act on what otherwise might have been a fleeting suicidal impulse.
The team sent to Iraq included psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers
and experts in combat stress, said Lyn Kukral, a spokeswoman for the Office
of the Army Surgeon General and the Army Medical Command.
The team was expected to complete a report on its findings and make
recommendations in two to three weeks, officials said.
"Suicide is just one aspect of many behavioral health and individual
readiness issues that the team is assessing. The team is interested in
identifying particular deployment stressors and their impact on the deployed
soldiers. The team is also concerned with reviewing the effectiveness of
current combat-stress control doctrine," Kukral said in a statement.
Kukral said 478 soldiers had been evacuated from Iraq for mental health
reasons as of Sept. 25.
The Army and Navy annually average about 11 suicides per 100,000 personnel,
the Air Force about 9.5 per 100,000 and the Marines about 12.6 per 100,000.
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
.
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| User: "Eric Pepke" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
21 Oct 2003 02:08:56 PM |
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Anonymous <Nobody> wrote in message news:<3f90823d_7@127.0.0.1>...
She also noted that troops in Iraq have guns readily available, enabling
them to act on what otherwise might have been a fleeting suicidal impulse.
Thank you providing balance by telling us that soldiers have guns. It
certainly opened my eyes. I thought that they were just hurling
cooked carrots at the enemy.
.
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| User: "James Monroe" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
21 Oct 2003 03:54:30 PM |
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On 21 Oct 2003 12:08:56 -0700, (Eric Pepke) wrote:
Anonymous <Nobody> wrote in message news:<3f90823d_7@127.0.0.1>...
She also noted that troops in Iraq have guns readily available, enabling
them to act on what otherwise might have been a fleeting suicidal impulse.
Thank you providing balance by telling us that soldiers have guns. It
certainly opened my eyes. I thought that they were just hurling
cooked carrots at the enemy.
Cook carrots?
Bring 'em on!
"Too many whites are getting away with drug use.
The answer is to ... find the ones who are getting
away with it, convict them, and send them up the river."
Hypocrite Criminal Drug Addict Rush Limbaugh
.
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| User: "sdq" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
22 Oct 2003 09:07:12 AM |
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James Monroe wrote:
On 21 Oct 2003 12:08:56 -0700, (Eric Pepke) wrote:
Anonymous <Nobody> wrote in message news:<3f90823d_7@127.0.0.1>...
She also noted that troops in Iraq have guns readily available, enabling
them to act on what otherwise might have been a fleeting suicidal impulse.
Thank you providing balance by telling us that soldiers have guns. It
certainly opened my eyes. I thought that they were just hurling
cooked carrots at the enemy.
Cook carrots?
Bring 'em on!
You do know that weaponized cooked carrots are frozen puree propelled at
twice the speed of sound?
sdq
"Too many whites are getting away with drug use.
The answer is to ... find the ones who are getting
away with it, convict them, and send them up the river."
Hypocrite Criminal Drug Addict Rush Limbaugh
.
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| User: "James Monroe" |
|
| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
22 Oct 2003 12:04:03 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:07:12 -0400, sdq <sdq@sdq.com> wrote:
James Monroe wrote:
On 21 Oct 2003 12:08:56 -0700, (Eric Pepke) wrote:
Anonymous <Nobody> wrote in message news:<3f90823d_7@127.0.0.1>...
She also noted that troops in Iraq have guns readily available, enabling
them to act on what otherwise might have been a fleeting suicidal impulse.
Thank you providing balance by telling us that soldiers have guns. It
certainly opened my eyes. I thought that they were just hurling
cooked carrots at the enemy.
Cook carrots?
Bring 'em on!
You do know that weaponized cooked carrots are frozen puree propelled at
twice the speed of sound?
sdq
I'm embarassed to admit that I didn't know that.
"Too many whites are getting away with drug use.
The answer is to ... find the ones who are getting
away with it, convict them, and send them up the river."
Hypocrite Criminal Drug Addict Rush Limbaugh
"Too many whites are getting away with drug use.
The answer is to ... find the ones who are getting
away with it, convict them, and send them up the river."
Hypocrite Criminal Drug Addict Rush Limbaugh
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
22 Oct 2003 08:35:19 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:07:12 -0400, sdq <sdq@sdq.com>, Message ID:
<bn62ui$fvi$1@Tropolix.UQSS.UQuebec.CA> wrote in alt.atheism;
James Monroe wrote:
On 21 Oct 2003 12:08:56 -0700, (Eric Pepke) wrote:
Anonymous <Nobody> wrote in message news:<3f90823d_7@127.0.0.1>...
She also noted that troops in Iraq have guns readily available, enabling
them to act on what otherwise might have been a fleeting suicidal impulse.
Thank you providing balance by telling us that soldiers have guns. It
certainly opened my eyes. I thought that they were just hurling
cooked carrots at the enemy.
Cook carrots?
Bring 'em on!
You do know that weaponized cooked carrots are frozen puree propelled at
twice the speed of sound?
HAH!!!! Just wait until they activate the brocholi.....
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
17 Oct 2003 07:11:54 PM |
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On 17 Oct 2003, Anonymous <Nobody> posted this:
"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in
message news:Xns9417ACBE62C83timsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
"WASHINGTON - At least 13 U.S. troops have committed suicide in
Iraq, representing more than 10 percent of American noncombat
deaths there, and the Army dispatched a suicide-prevention
expert to assess the problem, officials said on Thursday.
At least 11 U.S. Army soldiers have committed suicide during
Iraq operations, most with self-inflicted gunshot wounds, and
two Marines have committed suicide using firearms, officials
said.
One official said "a few more" Army deaths were being
investigated as possible suicides, and the Navy said the death
of one service member was under investigation. The Air Force
said it had no such cases.
Army officials have expressed concern about the suicides, many
of which occurred after President Bush declared major combat
operations over in Iraq on May 1."
Omission of pertinent data in the article is letting your
*bias* show,
buddy:
"When war is actually going on, behavioral experts say the
soldiers aren't as likely to commit suicide during that period.
While they're fighting, they're not thinking about their
problems. But once open hostilities cease and the peacekeeping
part begins, for some soldiers that can be very rewarding work
but for some (others) it can be very stressful," Rudd said.
She also noted that troops in Iraq have guns readily available,
enabling them to act on what otherwise might have been a
fleeting suicidal impulse.
The team sent to Iraq included psychiatrists, psychologists,
social workers and experts in combat stress, said Lyn Kukral, a
spokeswoman for the Office of the Army Surgeon General and the
Army Medical Command.
The team was expected to complete a report on its findings and
make recommendations in two to three weeks, officials said.
"Suicide is just one aspect of many behavioral health and
individual readiness issues that the team is assessing. The team
is interested in identifying particular deployment stressors and
their impact on the deployed soldiers. The team is also
concerned with reviewing the effectiveness of current
combat-stress control doctrine," Kukral said in a statement.
Kukral said 478 soldiers had been evacuated from Iraq for mental
health reasons as of Sept. 25.
The Army and Navy annually average about 11 suicides per 100,000
personnel, the Air Force about 9.5 per 100,000 and the Marines
about 12.6 per 100,000.
How does any of this mitigate the fact that soldiers in Iraq are
killing themselves at higher rates than other soldiers?
--
"The concept of military necessity is seductively broad, and
has a dangerous plasticity. Because they invariably have the
visage of overriding importance, there is always a temptation
to invoke security "necessities" to justify an encroachment
upon civil liberties. For that reason, the military-security
argument must be approached with a healthy skepticism."
--Justice William Brennan
Tim
"Fair and Balanced"
.
|
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| User: "Anonymous Nobody" |
|
| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
17 Oct 2003 07:31:24 PM |
|
|
"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9417AF68686FCtimsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
On 17 Oct 2003, Anonymous <Nobody> posted this:
"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in
message news:Xns9417ACBE62C83timsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
"WASHINGTON - At least 13 U.S. troops have committed suicide in
Iraq, representing more than 10 percent of American noncombat
deaths there, and the Army dispatched a suicide-prevention
expert to assess the problem, officials said on Thursday.
At least 11 U.S. Army soldiers have committed suicide during
Iraq operations, most with self-inflicted gunshot wounds, and
two Marines have committed suicide using firearms, officials
said.
One official said "a few more" Army deaths were being
investigated as possible suicides, and the Navy said the death
of one service member was under investigation. The Air Force
said it had no such cases.
Army officials have expressed concern about the suicides, many
of which occurred after President Bush declared major combat
operations over in Iraq on May 1."
Omission of pertinent data in the article is letting your
*bias* show,
buddy:
"When war is actually going on, behavioral experts say the
soldiers aren't as likely to commit suicide during that period.
While they're fighting, they're not thinking about their
problems. But once open hostilities cease and the peacekeeping
part begins, for some soldiers that can be very rewarding work
but for some (others) it can be very stressful," Rudd said.
She also noted that troops in Iraq have guns readily available,
enabling them to act on what otherwise might have been a
fleeting suicidal impulse.
The team sent to Iraq included psychiatrists, psychologists,
social workers and experts in combat stress, said Lyn Kukral, a
spokeswoman for the Office of the Army Surgeon General and the
Army Medical Command.
The team was expected to complete a report on its findings and
make recommendations in two to three weeks, officials said.
"Suicide is just one aspect of many behavioral health and
individual readiness issues that the team is assessing. The team
is interested in identifying particular deployment stressors and
their impact on the deployed soldiers. The team is also
concerned with reviewing the effectiveness of current
combat-stress control doctrine," Kukral said in a statement.
Kukral said 478 soldiers had been evacuated from Iraq for mental
health reasons as of Sept. 25.
The Army and Navy annually average about 11 suicides per 100,000
personnel, the Air Force about 9.5 per 100,000 and the Marines
about 12.6 per 100,000.
How does any of this mitigate the fact that soldiers in Iraq are
killing themselves at higher rates than other soldiers?
OK, If you are saying there are more suicides amongst our troops in Iraq
because they are there in a war, (and post war police/peacekeeping
situation). I would say that you got me. There is no mitigation.
But if you are saying/intimating more troops are comitting suicide
because our president singularly sent them over into war, which is where you
stopped quoting the article in an effort to point to a causation, then I say
you are a *bit* biased.
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
.
|
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| User: "Dickmcb" |
|
| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
17 Oct 2003 08:42:43 PM |
|
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"Anonymous" <Nobody> wrote in message news:3f908938_7@127.0.0.1...
"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9417AF68686FCtimsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
On 17 Oct 2003, Anonymous <Nobody> posted this:
"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in
message news:Xns9417ACBE62C83timsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
"WASHINGTON - At least 13 U.S. troops have committed suicide in
Iraq, representing more than 10 percent of American noncombat
deaths there, and the Army dispatched a suicide-prevention
expert to assess the problem, officials said on Thursday.
At least 11 U.S. Army soldiers have committed suicide during
Iraq operations, most with self-inflicted gunshot wounds, and
two Marines have committed suicide using firearms, officials
said.
One official said "a few more" Army deaths were being
investigated as possible suicides, and the Navy said the death
of one service member was under investigation. The Air Force
said it had no such cases.
Army officials have expressed concern about the suicides, many
of which occurred after President Bush declared major combat
operations over in Iraq on May 1."
Omission of pertinent data in the article is letting your
*bias* show,
buddy:
"When war is actually going on, behavioral experts say the
soldiers aren't as likely to commit suicide during that period.
While they're fighting, they're not thinking about their
problems. But once open hostilities cease and the peacekeeping
part begins, for some soldiers that can be very rewarding work
but for some (others) it can be very stressful," Rudd said.
She also noted that troops in Iraq have guns readily available,
enabling them to act on what otherwise might have been a
fleeting suicidal impulse.
The team sent to Iraq included psychiatrists, psychologists,
social workers and experts in combat stress, said Lyn Kukral, a
spokeswoman for the Office of the Army Surgeon General and the
Army Medical Command.
The team was expected to complete a report on its findings and
make recommendations in two to three weeks, officials said.
"Suicide is just one aspect of many behavioral health and
individual readiness issues that the team is assessing. The team
is interested in identifying particular deployment stressors and
their impact on the deployed soldiers. The team is also
concerned with reviewing the effectiveness of current
combat-stress control doctrine," Kukral said in a statement.
Kukral said 478 soldiers had been evacuated from Iraq for mental
health reasons as of Sept. 25.
The Army and Navy annually average about 11 suicides per 100,000
personnel, the Air Force about 9.5 per 100,000 and the Marines
about 12.6 per 100,000.
How does any of this mitigate the fact that soldiers in Iraq are
killing themselves at higher rates than other soldiers?
OK, If you are saying there are more suicides amongst our troops in
Iraq
because they are there in a war, (and post war police/peacekeeping
situation). I would say that you got me. There is no mitigation.
But if you are saying/intimating more troops are comitting suicide
because our president singularly sent them over into war, which is where
you
stopped quoting the article in an effort to point to a causation, then I
say
you are a *bit* biased.
*************************************************
Do you think it is fair to say that if those troops had not been
commited to this war by Bush they would still have been more subject to
suicide than if Bush hadn't sent them there?....Is that logic biased to you?
*********************************************
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000
Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption
=---
.
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| User: "James Monroe" |
|
| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
18 Oct 2003 12:06:57 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:31:24 -0500, Anonymous <Nobody> wrote:
"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9417AF68686FCtimsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
On 17 Oct 2003, Anonymous <Nobody> posted this:
"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in
message news:Xns9417ACBE62C83timsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
"WASHINGTON - At least 13 U.S. troops have committed suicide in
Iraq, representing more than 10 percent of American noncombat
deaths there, and the Army dispatched a suicide-prevention
expert to assess the problem, officials said on Thursday.
At least 11 U.S. Army soldiers have committed suicide during
Iraq operations, most with self-inflicted gunshot wounds, and
two Marines have committed suicide using firearms, officials
said.
One official said "a few more" Army deaths were being
investigated as possible suicides, and the Navy said the death
of one service member was under investigation. The Air Force
said it had no such cases.
Army officials have expressed concern about the suicides, many
of which occurred after President Bush declared major combat
operations over in Iraq on May 1."
Omission of pertinent data in the article is letting your
*bias* show,
buddy:
"When war is actually going on, behavioral experts say the
soldiers aren't as likely to commit suicide during that period.
While they're fighting, they're not thinking about their
problems. But once open hostilities cease and the peacekeeping
part begins, for some soldiers that can be very rewarding work
but for some (others) it can be very stressful," Rudd said.
She also noted that troops in Iraq have guns readily available,
enabling them to act on what otherwise might have been a
fleeting suicidal impulse.
The team sent to Iraq included psychiatrists, psychologists,
social workers and experts in combat stress, said Lyn Kukral, a
spokeswoman for the Office of the Army Surgeon General and the
Army Medical Command.
The team was expected to complete a report on its findings and
make recommendations in two to three weeks, officials said.
"Suicide is just one aspect of many behavioral health and
individual readiness issues that the team is assessing. The team
is interested in identifying particular deployment stressors and
their impact on the deployed soldiers. The team is also
concerned with reviewing the effectiveness of current
combat-stress control doctrine," Kukral said in a statement.
Kukral said 478 soldiers had been evacuated from Iraq for mental
health reasons as of Sept. 25.
The Army and Navy annually average about 11 suicides per 100,000
personnel, the Air Force about 9.5 per 100,000 and the Marines
about 12.6 per 100,000.
How does any of this mitigate the fact that soldiers in Iraq are
killing themselves at higher rates than other soldiers?
OK, If you are saying there are more suicides amongst our troops in Iraq
because they are there in a war, (and post war police/peacekeeping
situation). I would say that you got me. There is no mitigation.
But if you are saying/intimating more troops are comitting suicide
because our president singularly sent them over into war, which is where you
stopped quoting the article in an effort to point to a causation, then I say
you are a *bit* biased.
The issue would be your use of the word "singularly".
In the beginning, bush secured the backing of the American people and
congress, so, in that regard, we can't say "singularly".
However, bush lied his ***** off to secure that backing. Had the
unvarnished truth been laid out for all to see, I don't believe bush
could have even secured the support of a republican congress, let
alone a split public.
"Too many whites are getting away with drug use.
The answer is to ... find the ones who are getting
away with it, convict them, and send them up the river."
Hypocrite Criminal Drug Addict Rush Limbaugh
.
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| User: "Anonymous Nobody" |
|
| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
18 Oct 2003 01:15:54 AM |
|
|
"James Monroe" <nospam@lessspam.net> wrote in message
news:9bi1pv8mnt9tv8uprdi2l3e1pg0se80bkd@4ax.com...
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:31:24 -0500, Anonymous <Nobody> wrote:
"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9417AF68686FCtimsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
On 17 Oct 2003, Anonymous <Nobody> posted this:
"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in
message news:Xns9417ACBE62C83timsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
"WASHINGTON - At least 13 U.S. troops have committed suicide in
Iraq, representing more than 10 percent of American noncombat
deaths there, and the Army dispatched a suicide-prevention
expert to assess the problem, officials said on Thursday.
At least 11 U.S. Army soldiers have committed suicide during
Iraq operations, most with self-inflicted gunshot wounds, and
two Marines have committed suicide using firearms, officials
said.
One official said "a few more" Army deaths were being
investigated as possible suicides, and the Navy said the death
of one service member was under investigation. The Air Force
said it had no such cases.
Army officials have expressed concern about the suicides, many
of which occurred after President Bush declared major combat
operations over in Iraq on May 1."
Omission of pertinent data in the article is letting your
*bias* show,
buddy:
"When war is actually going on, behavioral experts say the
soldiers aren't as likely to commit suicide during that period.
While they're fighting, they're not thinking about their
problems. But once open hostilities cease and the peacekeeping
part begins, for some soldiers that can be very rewarding work
but for some (others) it can be very stressful," Rudd said.
She also noted that troops in Iraq have guns readily available,
enabling them to act on what otherwise might have been a
fleeting suicidal impulse.
The team sent to Iraq included psychiatrists, psychologists,
social workers and experts in combat stress, said Lyn Kukral, a
spokeswoman for the Office of the Army Surgeon General and the
Army Medical Command.
The team was expected to complete a report on its findings and
make recommendations in two to three weeks, officials said.
"Suicide is just one aspect of many behavioral health and
individual readiness issues that the team is assessing. The team
is interested in identifying particular deployment stressors and
their impact on the deployed soldiers. The team is also
concerned with reviewing the effectiveness of current
combat-stress control doctrine," Kukral said in a statement.
Kukral said 478 soldiers had been evacuated from Iraq for mental
health reasons as of Sept. 25.
The Army and Navy annually average about 11 suicides per 100,000
personnel, the Air Force about 9.5 per 100,000 and the Marines
about 12.6 per 100,000.
How does any of this mitigate the fact that soldiers in Iraq are
killing themselves at higher rates than other soldiers?
OK, If you are saying there are more suicides amongst our troops in
Iraq
because they are there in a war, (and post war police/peacekeeping
situation). I would say that you got me. There is no mitigation.
But if you are saying/intimating more troops are comitting suicide
because our president singularly sent them over into war, which is where
you
stopped quoting the article in an effort to point to a causation, then I
say
you are a *bit* biased.
The issue would be your use of the word "singularly".
In the beginning, bush secured the backing of the American people and
congress, so, in that regard, we can't say "singularly".
However, bush lied his ***** off to secure that backing. Had the
unvarnished truth been laid out for all to see, I don't believe bush
could have even secured the support of a republican congress, let
alone a split public.
OK, I retract that part.
Now, removing the word "singularly", even though the original post
leaves us at that point, what part of what I am saying is wrong?
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
.
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| User: "James Monroe" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
18 Oct 2003 05:12:17 AM |
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On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 01:15:54 -0500, Anonymous <Nobody> wrote:
"James Monroe" <nospam@lessspam.net> wrote in message
news:9bi1pv8mnt9tv8uprdi2l3e1pg0se80bkd@4ax.com...
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:31:24 -0500, Anonymous <Nobody> wrote:
"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9417AF68686FCtimsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
On 17 Oct 2003, Anonymous <Nobody> posted this:
"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in
message news:Xns9417ACBE62C83timsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
"WASHINGTON - At least 13 U.S. troops have committed suicide in
Iraq, representing more than 10 percent of American noncombat
deaths there, and the Army dispatched a suicide-prevention
expert to assess the problem, officials said on Thursday.
At least 11 U.S. Army soldiers have committed suicide during
Iraq operations, most with self-inflicted gunshot wounds, and
two Marines have committed suicide using firearms, officials
said.
One official said "a few more" Army deaths were being
investigated as possible suicides, and the Navy said the death
of one service member was under investigation. The Air Force
said it had no such cases.
Army officials have expressed concern about the suicides, many
of which occurred after President Bush declared major combat
operations over in Iraq on May 1."
Omission of pertinent data in the article is letting your
*bias* show,
buddy:
"When war is actually going on, behavioral experts say the
soldiers aren't as likely to commit suicide during that period.
While they're fighting, they're not thinking about their
problems. But once open hostilities cease and the peacekeeping
part begins, for some soldiers that can be very rewarding work
but for some (others) it can be very stressful," Rudd said.
She also noted that troops in Iraq have guns readily available,
enabling them to act on what otherwise might have been a
fleeting suicidal impulse.
The team sent to Iraq included psychiatrists, psychologists,
social workers and experts in combat stress, said Lyn Kukral, a
spokeswoman for the Office of the Army Surgeon General and the
Army Medical Command.
The team was expected to complete a report on its findings and
make recommendations in two to three weeks, officials said.
"Suicide is just one aspect of many behavioral health and
individual readiness issues that the team is assessing. The team
is interested in identifying particular deployment stressors and
their impact on the deployed soldiers. The team is also
concerned with reviewing the effectiveness of current
combat-stress control doctrine," Kukral said in a statement.
Kukral said 478 soldiers had been evacuated from Iraq for mental
health reasons as of Sept. 25.
The Army and Navy annually average about 11 suicides per 100,000
personnel, the Air Force about 9.5 per 100,000 and the Marines
about 12.6 per 100,000.
How does any of this mitigate the fact that soldiers in Iraq are
killing themselves at higher rates than other soldiers?
OK, If you are saying there are more suicides amongst our troops in
Iraq
because they are there in a war, (and post war police/peacekeeping
situation). I would say that you got me. There is no mitigation.
But if you are saying/intimating more troops are comitting suicide
because our president singularly sent them over into war, which is where
you
stopped quoting the article in an effort to point to a causation, then I
say
you are a *bit* biased.
The issue would be your use of the word "singularly".
In the beginning, bush secured the backing of the American people and
congress, so, in that regard, we can't say "singularly".
However, bush lied his ***** off to secure that backing. Had the
unvarnished truth been laid out for all to see, I don't believe bush
could have even secured the support of a republican congress, let
alone a split public.
OK, I retract that part.
Now, removing the word "singularly", even though the original post
leaves us at that point, what part of what I am saying is wrong?
I don't know that any of it is "wrong", or incorrect.
Who is to say why someone took their own life? Anyone's answer would
be subjective.
Even if an exhaustive analysis was done comparing WW2 soldiers with
the present situation and we found that far fewer committed suicide
back then, we'd be reading:
From the Left: "The WW2 guy knew they were fighting for a just cause
and therefore more committed. Today's war is unjust, because of bush,
inc., and it's twisting our boys up emotionally. Therefore, more
suicides and it's bush's fault."
From the right: "The comparison is meaningless."
In fact, no one would know for sure. Each would be spinning to fortify
their preconceived notion.
My own problem with all this is that bush started the whole thing by
lying, which casts a dark cloud over all that follows and makes me
very suspicious. If the whole operation was noble and just, if only in
bush's own mind, he would have had no motivation to lie. The fact that
he lied is evidence, to me, that even he didn't see it as noble and
just and his motivations were/are far more sinister.
The man is simply not trustworthy.
Do you really see him as trustworthy? Really...deep down in your
heart?
"Too many whites are getting away with drug use.
The answer is to ... find the ones who are getting
away with it, convict them, and send them up the river."
Hypocrite Criminal Drug Addict Rush Limbaugh
.
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| User: "Edward Glamkowski" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
18 Oct 2003 04:04:35 PM |
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James Monroe <nospam@lessspam.net> wrote in message news:<fe32pvgegdl6q6mn8i67d1mgi2lh7hqqt2@4ax.com>...
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 01:15:54 -0500, Anonymous <Nobody> wrote:
"James Monroe" <nospam@lessspam.net> wrote in message
news:9bi1pv8mnt9tv8uprdi2l3e1pg0se80bkd@4ax.com...
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:31:24 -0500, Anonymous <Nobody> wrote:
"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9417AF68686FCtimsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
On 17 Oct 2003, Anonymous <Nobody> posted this:
"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in
message news:Xns9417ACBE62C83timsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
"WASHINGTON - At least 13 U.S. troops have committed suicide in
Iraq, representing more than 10 percent of American noncombat
deaths there, and the Army dispatched a suicide-prevention
expert to assess the problem, officials said on Thursday.
At least 11 U.S. Army soldiers have committed suicide during
Iraq operations, most with self-inflicted gunshot wounds, and
two Marines have committed suicide using firearms, officials
said.
One official said "a few more" Army deaths were being
investigated as possible suicides, and the Navy said the death
of one service member was under investigation. The Air Force
said it had no such cases.
Army officials have expressed concern about the suicides, many
of which occurred after President Bush declared major combat
operations over in Iraq on May 1."
Omission of pertinent data in the article is letting your
*bias* show,
buddy:
"When war is actually going on, behavioral experts say the
soldiers aren't as likely to commit suicide during that period.
While they're fighting, they're not thinking about their
problems. But once open hostilities cease and the peacekeeping
part begins, for some soldiers that can be very rewarding work
but for some (others) it can be very stressful," Rudd said.
She also noted that troops in Iraq have guns readily available,
enabling them to act on what otherwise might have been a
fleeting suicidal impulse.
The team sent to Iraq included psychiatrists, psychologists,
social workers and experts in combat stress, said Lyn Kukral, a
spokeswoman for the Office of the Army Surgeon General and the
Army Medical Command.
The team was expected to complete a report on its findings and
make recommendations in two to three weeks, officials said.
"Suicide is just one aspect of many behavioral health and
individual readiness issues that the team is assessing. The team
is interested in identifying particular deployment stressors and
their impact on the deployed soldiers. The team is also
concerned with reviewing the effectiveness of current
combat-stress control doctrine," Kukral said in a statement.
Kukral said 478 soldiers had been evacuated from Iraq for mental
health reasons as of Sept. 25.
The Army and Navy annually average about 11 suicides per 100,000
personnel, the Air Force about 9.5 per 100,000 and the Marines
about 12.6 per 100,000.
How does any of this mitigate the fact that soldiers in Iraq are
killing themselves at higher rates than other soldiers?
OK, If you are saying there are more suicides amongst our troops in
Iraq
because they are there in a war, (and post war police/peacekeeping
situation). I would say that you got me. There is no mitigation.
But if you are saying/intimating more troops are comitting suicide
because our president singularly sent them over into war, which is where
you
stopped quoting the article in an effort to point to a causation, then I
say
you are a *bit* biased.
The issue would be your use of the word "singularly".
In the beginning, bush secured the backing of the American people and
congress, so, in that regard, we can't say "singularly".
However, bush lied his ***** off to secure that backing. Had the
unvarnished truth been laid out for all to see, I don't believe bush
could have even secured the support of a republican congress, let
alone a split public.
OK, I retract that part.
Now, removing the word "singularly", even though the original post
leaves us at that point, what part of what I am saying is wrong?
I don't know that any of it is "wrong", or incorrect.
Who is to say why someone took their own life? Anyone's answer would
be subjective.
Even if an exhaustive analysis was done comparing WW2 soldiers with
the present situation and we found that far fewer committed suicide
back then, we'd be reading:
From the Left: "The WW2 guy knew they were fighting for a just cause
and therefore more committed. Today's war is unjust, because of bush,
inc., and it's twisting our boys up emotionally. Therefore, more
suicides and it's bush's fault."
From the right: "The comparison is meaningless."
In fact, no one would know for sure. Each would be spinning to fortify
their preconceived notion.
My own problem with all this is that bush started the whole thing by
lying, which casts a dark cloud over all that follows and makes me
very suspicious. If the whole operation was noble and just, if only in
bush's own mind, he would have had no motivation to lie. The fact that
he lied is evidence, to me, that even he didn't see it as noble and
just and his motivations were/are far more sinister.
The man is simply not trustworthy.
Do you really see him as trustworthy? Really...deep down in your
heart?
"Too many whites are getting away with drug use.
The answer is to ... find the ones who are getting
away with it, convict them, and send them up the river."
Hypocrite Criminal Drug Addict Rush Limbaugh
Troops are committing suicide since they fear Iraqi Guirillas. Troops
are tired and want to return home. So far 197 are dead. I am sure
there will be a lot more casualties.
.
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| User: "Bill Bonde the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
18 Oct 2003 04:18:39 PM |
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Edward Glamkowski wrote:
Troops are committing suicide since they fear Iraqi Guirillas. Troops
are tired and want to return home. So far 197 are dead. I am sure
there will be a lot more casualties.
Let me get this straight. They willingly signed up for the military but
don't want to be deployed or do any of the things that are required of
people in the military? To whatever degree that sentiment exists in our
military, it isn't a good thing.
.
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| User: "James Monroe" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
19 Oct 2003 05:44:12 AM |
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On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:18:39 -0700, "Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion
in lieu of the frontal attack )" <stderr2@backpacker.com> wrote:
Edward Glamkowski wrote:
Troops are committing suicide since they fear Iraqi Guirillas. Troops
are tired and want to return home. So far 197 are dead. I am sure
there will be a lot more casualties.
Let me get this straight. They willingly signed up for the military but
don't want to be deployed or do any of the things that are required of
people in the military? To whatever degree that sentiment exists in our
military, it isn't a good thing.
I can see someone signing up for four years looking forward to getting
some technical training that would be useful later, but still keeping
their fingers crossed that they never have to go into combat.
Maybe the Texas National Guard is the place for them. Not only will
they not see combat, word is they don't even have to show up for duty.
Nice work, if you can get it.
"Too many whites are getting away with drug use.
The answer is to ... find the ones who are getting
away with it, convict them, and send them up the river."
Hypocrite Criminal Drug Addict Rush Limbaugh
.
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| User: "Bill Bonde the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
19 Oct 2003 07:00:38 AM |
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James Monroe wrote:
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:18:39 -0700, "Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion
in lieu of the frontal attack )" <stderr2@backpacker.com> wrote:
Edward Glamkowski wrote:
Troops are committing suicide since they fear Iraqi Guirillas. Troops
are tired and want to return home. So far 197 are dead. I am sure
there will be a lot more casualties.
Let me get this straight. They willingly signed up for the military but
don't want to be deployed or do any of the things that are required of
people in the military? To whatever degree that sentiment exists in our
military, it isn't a good thing.
I can see someone signing up for four years looking forward to getting
some technical training that would be useful later,
In other words, signing up for something they will get. What's the quid
pro quo?
but still keeping
their fingers crossed that they never have to go into combat.
But there is no other point in being in the military. We didn't hire
them to play. Note that it is called 'war games' because that is what
they are doing when it isn't real.
Maybe the Texas National Guard is the place for them.
For whom? Bush? There was a draft then. I would've wanted to avoid Nam
too. I avoided it pretty well too. I even prayed to Jesus to end the
bloody thing. Doesn't that make me a fucking hero?
.
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| User: "James Monroe" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
19 Oct 2003 10:26:24 PM |
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On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 05:00:38 -0700, "Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion
in lieu of the frontal attack )" <stderr2@backpacker.com> wrote:
James Monroe wrote:
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:18:39 -0700, "Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion
in lieu of the frontal attack )" <stderr2@backpacker.com> wrote:
Edward Glamkowski wrote:
Troops are committing suicide since they fear Iraqi Guirillas. Troops
are tired and want to return home. So far 197 are dead. I am sure
there will be a lot more casualties.
Let me get this straight. They willingly signed up for the military but
don't want to be deployed or do any of the things that are required of
people in the military? To whatever degree that sentiment exists in our
military, it isn't a good thing.
I can see someone signing up for four years looking forward to getting
some technical training that would be useful later,
In other words, signing up for something they will get. What's the quid
pro quo?
Heck, we all do that.
Anytime I've applied for a job, I wanted to know what would I get out
of it. How much money? Will I learn anything? Will I be mentally
stimulated? If all those things fall into line and they offer me a
position, I accept.
But then, later, if they ask me to do something I find morally
objectionable, I'm out the door. Gone....that very day.
I don't, however, "sign up" for a number of years like military people
do. My employment is always "at will" for both parties. I suppose
that's the difference.
but still keeping
their fingers crossed that they never have to go into combat.
But there is no other point in being in the military. We didn't hire
them to play. Note that it is called 'war games' because that is what
they are doing when it isn't real.
Maybe the Texas National Guard is the place for them.
For whom? Bush? There was a draft then. I would've wanted to avoid Nam
too. I avoided it pretty well too. I even prayed to Jesus to end the
bloody thing. Doesn't that make me a fucking hero?
Let me be very clear about this:
I don't blame bush's family for pulling strings to keep him out of
Viet Nam. If I were powerful like them, I'd do the same thing for my
son.
What I do blame people like bush for is, after having someone pull the
strings for you, to pretend that you're some sort of war hero and
courageous big military guy. That's just plain *****.
To call a "hide behind my daddy" guy like bush a "Viet Nam Era
Veteran", although perhaps technically true, is an insult to those who
really served. It's a spit in the face to families that lost loved
ones in that "police action". That sort of hypocritical arrogance
really pisses me off.
It pissed me off to the point that I never even refer to myself as a
"Viet Nam Era Veteran", although I served between 1971-1975.
I graduated college in January of 1971 and lost my 2S Deferment
(remember those?) I was prime to be drafted, (my lottery number was
low) so I joined the Air Force where I thought I'd at least have a few
choices.
In fact, I got lucky: after basic, they sent me to language school and
then I spent all three years of duty in Germany. Then, I was
discharged. So, I served. I did what they asked of me.
But, in my mind, I did not serve like those guys living in the jungle
wondering if they'd live through the day. Therefore, I don't feel I
deserve the honored title of "Viet Nam Era Veteran".
<Actually, the reason I picked the Air Force was because I figured
that was the one branch of the military that could retreat at 500
MPH.>
"Too many whites are getting away with drug use.
The answer is to ... find the ones who are getting
away with it, convict them, and send them up the river."
Hypocrite Criminal Drug Addict Rush Limbaugh
.
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| User: "Yang, What About Overrated White Athletes Like Jeremy Shockey?" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
19 Oct 2003 02:02:54 AM |
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On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:18:39 -0700, "Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion
in lieu of the frontal attack )" <stderr2@backpacker.com> wrote:
Edward Glamkowski wrote:
Troops are committing suicide since they fear Iraqi Guirillas. Troops
are tired and want to return home. So far 197 are dead. I am sure
there will be a lot more casualties.
Let me get this straight. They willingly signed up for the military but
don't want to be deployed or do any of the things that are required of
people in the military? To whatever degree that sentiment exists in our
military, it isn't a good thing.
To the degree that their leaders shouldn't lie to them.
Where's the WMD, *****?
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec
The Bush 'balance' budget: -525 billion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -3 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -335 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.
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| User: "Bill Bonde the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
19 Oct 2003 06:10:54 AM |
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"Yang, What About Overrated White Athletes Like Jeremy Shockey?" wrote:
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:18:39 -0700, "Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion
in lieu of the frontal attack )" <stderr2@backpacker.com> wrote:
Edward Glamkowski wrote:
Troops are committing suicide since they fear Iraqi Guirillas. Troops
are tired and want to return home. So far 197 are dead. I am sure
there will be a lot more casualties.
Let me get this straight. They willingly signed up for the military but
don't want to be deployed or do any of the things that are required of
people in the military? To whatever degree that sentiment exists in our
military, it isn't a good thing.
To the degree that their leaders shouldn't lie to them.
Feel free to explain that one. You know, and put the explanation right
here ----->
Where's the WMD, *****?
I couldn't care less as long as the WMD that Saddam had are neutralized.
.
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| User: "sdq" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
20 Oct 2003 02:30:41 PM |
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Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack ) wrote:
I couldn't care less as long as the WMD that Saddam had are neutralized.
Hi Bill,
Wasn't that the case before the war ?
So what was the war for ?
sdq
.
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| User: "Bill Bonde the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
20 Oct 2003 06:45:15 PM |
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sdq wrote:
Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack ) wrote:
I couldn't care less as long as the WMD that Saddam had are neutralized.
Hi Bill,
Wasn't that the case before the war ?
So what was the war for ?
I could've sworn that a process for assuring that Saddam didn't have or
continue to make WMDs had still not finished in 2002 even though it had
been going on since 1991. I have no faith that Saddam ever would've
complied fully, and every reason to believe that he would've gone back
to making WMDs as soon as he thought he could get away with it. Why do
you think otherwise?
.
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| User: "Arne Langsetmo" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
22 Oct 2003 12:51:58 AM |
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"Standard error" Bill Bonde wrote:
sdq wrote:
"Standard error" Bill Bonde wrote:
I couldn't care less as long as the WMD that Saddam had are neutralized.
Hi Bill,
Wasn't that the case before the war ?
So what was the war for ?
I could've sworn that a process for assuring that Saddam didn't have or
continue to make WMDs had still not finished in 2002 . . .
Some folks claim it was over 95% done in 1998.
And then there were the new U.N. inspections, just to make sure.
Of course, Dubya didn't like the inspections, because they were
going to show what now is just as obvious: That Saddam was no
threat. Which is pretty much what ElBaradei and Blix had
reported in their preliminary reports (which must have shook
up the maladministration a bit WRT their plans).
. . . even though it had
been going on since 1991. I have no faith that Saddam ever would've
complied fully, and every reason to believe that he would've gone back
to making WMDs as soon as he thought he could get away with it. Why do
you think otherwise?
Because he had four years from 1998, in which he had the opportunity
and did nothing?
Cheers,
-- Arne Langsetmo
.
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| User: "sdq" |
|
| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
21 Oct 2003 08:43:25 AM |
|
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Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack ) wrote:
sdq wrote:
Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack ) wrote:
I couldn't care less as long as the WMD that Saddam had are neutralized.
Hi Bill,
Wasn't that the case before the war ?
So what was the war for ?
I could've sworn that a process for assuring that Saddam didn't have or
continue to make WMDs had still not finished in 2002 even though it had
been going on since 1991. I have no faith that Saddam ever would've
complied fully, and every reason to believe that he would've gone back
to making WMDs as soon as he thought he could get away with it. Why do
you think otherwise?
Hi Bill,
I can't say that I disagree with your assessment of Saddam's intentions.
He was(is?) a very very bad man. But it turns out that no one can find
any of those weapons (bio/chem/nuke), obviously a mistake has been made.
If the intentions of the Bush admin was to find the weapons it has failed.
If the intentions of the Bush admin was to save lives it has failed in
that many lives have been lost in this quest.
What I still can't grasp is why the Hussain's regime was singled out.
With all the rogue states that are known to hold weapons (bio/chem/nuke)
why pick on one that you only suspect is trying to acquire them?
Also the US may have an easier time convincing other nations to get ride
of weapons (bio/chem/nuke) if they didn't own more than anyone else. But
like the rest of whar i wrote, this is just my opinion.
sdq
.
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| User: "Edward Glamkowski" |
|
| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
21 Oct 2003 01:31:21 PM |
|
|
sdq <sdq@sdq.com> wrote in message
Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack ) wrote:
sdq wrote:
Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack ) wrote:
I couldn't care less as long as the WMD that Saddam had are neutralized.
Hi Bill,
Wasn't that the case before the war ?
So what was the war for ?
I could've sworn that a process for assuring that Saddam didn't have or
continue to make WMDs had still not finished in 2002 even though it had
been going on since 1991. I have no faith that Saddam ever would've
complied fully, and every reason to believe that he would've gone back
to making WMDs as soon as he thought he could get away with it. Why do
you think otherwise?
Hi Bill,
I can't say that I disagree with your assessment of Saddam's intentions.
He was(is?) a very very bad man. But it turns out that no one can find
any of those weapons (bio/chem/nuke), obviously a mistake has been made.
If the intentions of the Bush admin was to find the weapons it has failed.
If the intentions of the Bush admin was to save lives it has failed in
that many lives have been lost in this quest.
Saddam easily killed at least 150,000 in the past 10 years.
That's to say nothing of those who died in his wars (a million
plus) or as a result of sanctions (probably close to another
million) which were a direct result of his own actions as
leader of the country. He failed to be responsible to the
people of his country and millions died as a result.
The rate of deaths from all causes amongst Iraqis today
doesn't even remotely approach that rate.
Not even close.
Many lives are being saved.
While it is true that probably more american lives are being
lost there compared to if they stayed home, when one adds in
the lives of Iraqis then there is a HUGE net savings in lives.
The question is simply one of whether you value the lives
of americans more than those of Iraqis.
Some do, some don't.
It's a personal-values judgment call.
What I still can't grasp is why the Hussain's regime was singled out.
With all the rogue states that are known to hold weapons (bio/chem/nuke)
why pick on one that you only suspect is trying to acquire them?
Because Saddam's regime had UN chapter VII resolutions outstanding
against it?
Because Saddam refused to verifibly comply with those resolutions?
Because the 1991 war against Iraq was never officially ended?
Because Saddam had actually used his chemical weapons in the past?
Because Saddam went around invading and threatening his neighbors
and destabilizing a strategically important (for everyone) region
of the world?
Because Bush Jr wanted to avenge his father?
And yes, even because there is oil there. Oil which, when now
sold, no longer goes to building palaces or hoarding food and
medicine to be handed out as political favors while the rest
of the country was forced to endure terror famines.
Also the US may have an easier time convincing other nations to get ride
of weapons (bio/chem/nuke) if they didn't own more than anyone else. But
like the rest of whar i wrote, this is just my opinion.
Russia and France and Germany opposed for fear of losing their
business contracts with Saddam. Contracts which, by the way,
were in violation of UN resolutions.
If they had jumped on the bandwagon from the beginning, they may
have been given a share of the spoils. Their contracts may have
been preserved. Deals could have been made. But they were
unwilling to share with the US at all and sought to preserve
their own monopolies at all costs.
They sought to keep everything for themselves, but in the end got
nothing. They could have worked with the US and walked away with
something. Is not something better than nothing?
They, like so many others in this world, have badly underestimated
Bush. People like to think he's so stupid, but at the very least
he has very smart and clever advisors. Smart leaders have smart
advisors...
.
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| User: "B" |
|
| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
21 Oct 2003 10:09:13 PM |
|
|
(Edward Glamkowski) wrote in
news:c49f8b5e.0310211031.69a573ab@posting.google.com:
sdq <sdq@sdq.com> wrote in message
Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack )
wrote:
sdq wrote:
Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack )
wrote:
I couldn't care less as long as the WMD that Saddam had are
neutralized.
Hi Bill,
Wasn't that the case before the war ?
So what was the war for ?
I could've sworn that a process for assuring that Saddam didn't
have or continue to make WMDs had still not finished in 2002 even
though it had been going on since 1991. I have no faith that Saddam
ever would've complied fully, and every reason to believe that he
would've gone back to making WMDs as soon as he thought he could
get away with it. Why do you think otherwise?
Hi Bill,
I can't say that I disagree with your assessment of Saddam's
intentions. He was(is?) a very very bad man. But it turns out that no
one can find any of those weapons (bio/chem/nuke), obviously a
mistake has been made.
If the intentions of the Bush admin was to find the weapons it has
failed.
If the intentions of the Bush admin was to save lives it has failed
in that many lives have been lost in this quest.
Saddam easily killed at least 150,000 in the past 10 years.
That's to say nothing of those who died in his wars (a million
plus) or as a result of sanctions (probably close to another
million) which were a direct result of his own actions as
leader of the country. He failed to be responsible to the
people of his country and millions died as a result.
Yes the war with Iran cost (conservatively , if you will ecuse the
expression) about 400,000 lives. You are aware that this war was largely
financed and supported by the reagan whitehouse, ronny even sent rummy
over to clap sadaam on the back and shke his hand.
The rate of deaths from all causes amongst Iraqis today
doesn't even remotely approach that rate.
Not even close.
Which rate? A fairer measure would be how many Iraqis are dead today who
would have been alive had we NOT invaded.
Many lives are being saved.
Being saved? How?
While it is true that probably more american lives are being
lost there compared to if they stayed home, when one adds in
the lives of Iraqis then there is a HUGE net savings in lives.
HUGE net saving in lives? You wouldn't care to specify that a bit more?
The question is simply one of whether you value the lives
of americans more than those of Iraqis.
Some do, some don't.
It's a personal-values judgment call.
I find it easy... American lives... no contest.
What I still can't grasp is why the Hussain's regime was singled out.
With all the rogue states that are known to hold weapons
(bio/chem/nuke) why pick on one that you only suspect is trying to
acquire them?
Because Saddam's regime had UN chapter VII resolutions outstanding
against it?
WOW !!!!
Because Saddam refused to verifibly comply with those resolutions?
WOW !!!!
Because the 1991 war against Iraq was never officially ended?
Hmmm are you sure, I appear to remember a broadcast with lots of generals
signing papers and stuff....
Because Saddam had actually used his chemical weapons in the past?
Yes he did, against the Kurds in the north. SH was still our "friend" at
the time we we didn't make a fuss over it.
Because Saddam went around invading and threatening his neighbors
and destabilizing a strategically important (for everyone) region
of the world?
Well he did invade Kuwait, but I don't recall him invading anywhere else
except Iran and we liked that.
It is significant that NONE of these "threatened" neighbours felt
"threatened" enough to back the invasion. With the exception of Israel of
course.
Because Bush Jr wanted to avenge his father?
Possible... there was an alleged plot by SH to off the elder shrub.
And yes, even because there is oil there. Oil which, when now
sold, no longer goes to building palaces or hoarding food and
medicine to be handed out as political favors while the rest
of the country was forced to endure terror famines.
That was partly because of the UN sanctions after the Gulf war.
Also the US may have an easier time convincing other nations to get
ride of weapons (bio/chem/nuke) if they didn't own more than anyone
else. But like the rest of whar i wrote, this is just my opinion.
Russia and France and Germany opposed for fear of losing their
business contracts with Saddam. Contracts which, by the way,
were in violation of UN resolutions.
That is plain lies, no proof has ever been found to back that up.
If they had jumped on the bandwagon from the beginning, they may
have been given a share of the spoils. Their contracts may have
been preserved. Deals could have been made. But they were
unwilling to share with the US at all and sought to preserve
their own monopolies at all costs.
Spoils... interesting word that considering the "spoils" currently
consist of $87B of US taxpayers money. Not a loan... a gift.
They sought to keep everything for themselves, but in the end got
nothing. They could have worked with the US and walked away with
something. Is not something better than nothing?
It's not costing them $160B to date with no end in sight and soldiers
being killed on an almost daily basis.. I think they did quite well.
They, like so many others in this world, have badly underestimated
Bush. People like to think he's so stupid, but at the very least
he has very smart and clever advisors. Smart leaders have smart
advisors...
LMAO... I have a lawn ornament smarter than Bush.
Oh yes very clever to get us into Iraq all on our own, very clever not to
have any clue what to do next, oh yes very clever.
B.
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
22 Oct 2003 08:33:42 PM |
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On 21 Oct 2003 22:09:13 -0500, B <spam@spam.co>, Message ID:
<Xns941BEB886CE16yeahrightspamco@216.65.98.77> wrote in alt.atheism;
eglamkowski@angelfire.com (Edward Glamkowski) wrote in
news:c49f8b5e.0310211031.69a573ab@posting.google.com:
sdq <sdq@sdq.com> wrote in message
Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack )
wrote:
sdq wrote:
Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack )
wrote:
I couldn't care less as long as the WMD that Saddam had are
neutralized.
Hi Bill,
Wasn't that the case before the war ?
So what was the war for ?
I could've sworn that a process for assuring that Saddam didn't
have or continue to make WMDs had still not finished in 2002 even
though it had been going on since 1991. I have no faith that Saddam
ever would've complied fully, and every reason to believe that he
would've gone back to making WMDs as soon as he thought he could
get away with it. Why do you think otherwise?
Hi Bill,
I can't say that I disagree with your assessment of Saddam's
intentions. He was(is?) a very very bad man. But it turns out that no
one can find any of those weapons (bio/chem/nuke), obviously a
mistake has been made.
If the intentions of the Bush admin was to find the weapons it has
failed.
If the intentions of the Bush admin was to save lives it has failed
in that many lives have been lost in this quest.
Saddam easily killed at least 150,000 in the past 10 years.
That's to say nothing of those who died in his wars (a million
plus) or as a result of sanctions (probably close to another
million) which were a direct result of his own actions as
leader of the country. He failed to be responsible to the
people of his country and millions died as a result.
Yes the war with Iran cost (conservatively , if you will ecuse the
expression) about 400,000 lives. You are aware that this war was largely
financed and supported by the reagan whitehouse, ronny even sent rummy
over to clap sadaam on the back and shke his hand.
The rate of deaths from all causes amongst Iraqis today
doesn't even remotely approach that rate.
Not even close.
Which rate? A fairer measure would be how many Iraqis are dead today who
would have been alive had we NOT invaded.
Many lives are being saved.
Being saved? How?
While it is true that probably more american lives are being
lost there compared to if they stayed home, when one adds in
the lives of Iraqis then there is a HUGE net savings in lives.
HUGE net saving in lives? You wouldn't care to specify that a bit more?
The question is simply one of whether you value the lives
of americans more than those of Iraqis.
Some do, some don't.
It's a personal-values judgment call.
I find it easy... American lives... no contest.
What I still can't grasp is why the Hussain's regime was singled out.
With all the rogue states that are known to hold weapons
(bio/chem/nuke) why pick on one that you only suspect is trying to
acquire them?
Because Saddam's regime had UN chapter VII resolutions outstanding
against it?
WOW !!!!
Indeed. And Israel was in violation of many UN resolutions through the
years.
Because Saddam refused to verifibly comply with those resolutions?
WOW !!!!
Because the 1991 war against Iraq was never officially ended?
Hmmm are you sure, I appear to remember a broadcast with lots of generals
signing papers and stuff....
That doesn't count.
Because Saddam had actually used his chemical weapons in the past?
Yes he did, against the Kurds in the north. SH was still our "friend" at
the time we we didn't make a fuss over it.
And the U.S. is the only country to have used nukes against another.
Oh, yes, that doesn't count.
Because Saddam went around invading and threatening his neighbors
and destabilizing a strategically important (for everyone) region
of the world?
Well he did invade Kuwait, but I don't recall him invading anywhere else
except Iran and we liked that.
Oh yes, it doesn't count that Shrub went around threatening all sorts of
folks and invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.
It is significant that NONE of these "threatened" neighbours felt
"threatened" enough to back the invasion. With the exception of Israel of
course.
Funny thing-that, but sweep it under the 'rug' and ignore that too.
Because Bush Jr wanted to avenge his father?
Possible... there was an alleged plot by SH to off the elder shrub.
Such does not justify Shrub's actions.
And yes, even because there is oil there. Oil which, when now
sold, no longer goes to building palaces or hoarding food and
medicine to be handed out as political favors while the rest
of the country was forced to endure terror famines.
That was partly because of the UN sanctions after the Gulf war.
Also the US may have an easier time convincing other nations to get
ride of weapons (bio/chem/nuke) if they didn't own more than anyone
else. But like the rest of whar i wrote, this is just my opinion.
Russia and France and Germany opposed for fear of losing their
business contracts with Saddam. Contracts which, by the way,
were in violation of UN resolutions.
That is plain lies, no proof has ever been found to back that up.
If they had jumped on the bandwagon from the beginning, they may
have been given a share of the spoils. Their contracts may have
been preserved. Deals could have been made. But they were
unwilling to share with the US at all and sought to preserve
their own monopolies at all costs.
Spoils... interesting word that considering the "spoils" currently
consist of $87B of US taxpayers money. Not a loan... a gift.
Which is going to favoured companies without going through the
competitive bidding process either.
They sought to keep everything for themselves, but in the end got
nothing. They could have worked with the US and walked away with
something. Is not something better than nothing?
It's not costing them $160B to date with no end in sight and soldiers
being killed on an almost daily basis.. I think they did quite well.
Indeed. Those countries are way way ahead.
They, like so many others in this world, have badly underestimated
Bush. People like to think he's so stupid, but at the very least
he has very smart and clever advisors. Smart leaders have smart
advisors...
LMAO... I have a lawn ornament smarter than Bush.
Oh yes very clever to get us into Iraq all on our own, very clever not to
have any clue what to do next, oh yes very clever.
Shrub-the deserter-in-thief.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
21 Oct 2003 02:13:11 PM |
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Russia and France and Germany opposed for fear of losing their
business contracts with Saddam. Contracts which, by the way,
were in violation of UN resolutions.
As was Halliburton's after Gulf War I but you didn't hear much noise being made
about that.
It is interesting the list of companies that came out in the German report of
companies that were arming Iraq were all heavy GOP campaign contributors. Here
is the list. The percentage figure afterwards is the the percentage of soft
money donations that they made that went to the GOP (information courtesy of
www.opensecrets.com )
Rockwell International: 100% GOP
Hewlett Packard: 100% GOP
DuPont (and subsidiaries: 80.3% GOP (by far the largest soft money donor)
Honeywell: 77.5% GOP
Biotectronics: 100% GOP
Bechtel: 54.2% GOP (note, Bechtel gave most of their money to the Dems in 1998
but began heavily switching to the GOP in 2000)
International Computers: 100% GOP
Unisys: 100% GOP (2nd largest soft money donor of this list)
Sperry: not listed (didn't they merge with Unisys?)
TI-Coating: 100% GOP
I wonder just what sort of punitive action these companies are going to face
for trading with the enemy? Where is the modern equivalent of the Trading With
the Enemy Act of 1942? You know...the one that seized Prescott Bush's
corporations for dealing with Nazi Germany?
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Department of Applied Rattan Use
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking, which
leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy." - Robert Anton
Wilson
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| User: "Edward Glamkowski" |
|
| Title: Re: Troops committing suicide |
22 Oct 2003 11:12:58 AM |
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forlornh@aol.complex (Lord Calvert) wrote in message news:<20031021151311.04963.00000847@mb-m18.aol.com>...
Russia and France and Germany opposed for fear of losing their
business contracts with Saddam. Contracts which, by the way,
were in violation of UN resolutions.
As was Halliburton's after Gulf War I but you didn't hear much noise
being made about that.
I wouldn't doubt they did, but they were not anywhere even
remotely as lucrative as the Russian and French deals.
But it must be noted that it was possible to legitimately do
business with Saddam in the oil-for-food program, the issue
is rather what business what done beyond that.
Certainly in terms of weapons, the US was supplying, IIRC,
only in the vicinity of 1-3%, whereas China, France and
Russia were supplying Saddam with the vast majority of his
weapons.
Nobody gets to walk away from this with a clean conscious,
but there are varying degrees of guilt.
It is interesting the list of companies that came out in the German
report of companies that were arming Iraq were all heavy GOP campaign
contributors.
The entire defense industry at large has been leaning to the
right for the past 7 years. So this ought not be any real
surprise at all.
Note that this report did NOT provide the actual | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
