| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Joseph H" |
| Date: |
14 Mar 2006 03:01:43 PM |
| Object: |
TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
So we arrive....
Hey, we're as tough as anything else. But we want a little explanation;
and we need a little meaning; and we'd like a little comfort; and we'd
like to belong; and we'd like a little harmony....
But we can do it. We got the means to provide all the above. So we
concoct a little explanation and we spin a little yarn and we provide a
little hope...
Hey, man, it's all nonsense. It's fiction personified, the more
fanciful the better. But we believe it at once. Hey, it's doing its
job, who cares? We got business to attend to. We got to eat and hunt
and screw and fight. So don't rock the boat, man. It's alright.
Oh? Truth? You're kidding! Truth is for wimps. It's for losers who
aren't tough enough to survve.
But...maybe now we need truth? Oh, you poor fool! No, seriously, maybe
now that have come together we really need to know the truth. Fool, no!
But truth as a unifying agent, truth now that we are finally capable of
knowing, truth now that those who still believe are more powerful than
the liberated rest of us? No, no, when will you ever learn....? i
mean, there is a hope; there is a truth. No, no, no!
Joseph H
www,humanisation.org
.
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| User: "Jim07D6" |
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| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
14 Mar 2006 05:28:08 PM |
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"Joseph H" <joseph@humanisation.org> said:
So we arrive....
Hey, we're as tough as anything else. But we want a little explanation;
and we need a little meaning; and we'd like a little comfort; and we'd
like to belong; and we'd like a little harmony....
But we can do it. We got the means to provide all the above. So we
concoct a little explanation and we spin a little yarn and we provide a
little hope...
Hey, man, it's all nonsense. It's fiction personified, the more
fanciful the better. But we believe it at once. Hey, it's doing its
job, who cares? We got business to attend to. We got to eat and hunt
and screw and fight. So don't rock the boat, man. It's alright.
Oh? Truth? You're kidding! Truth is for wimps. It's for losers who
aren't tough enough to survve.
But...maybe now we need truth? Oh, you poor fool! No, seriously, maybe
now that have come together we really need to know the truth. Fool, no!
But truth as a unifying agent, truth now that we are finally capable of
knowing, truth now that those who still believe are more powerful than
the liberated rest of us? No, no, when will you ever learn....? i
mean, there is a hope; there is a truth. No, no, no!
Joseph H
www,humanisation.org
Do those thought give a little meaning, a little comfort, etc.?
--- Jim07D6
.
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
15 Mar 2006 10:14:21 AM |
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Jim07D6 wrote:
"Joseph H" <joseph@humanisation.org> said:
So we arrive....
Hey, we're as tough as anything else. But we want a little explanation;
and we need a little meaning; and we'd like a little comfort; and we'd
like to belong; and we'd like a little harmony....
But we can do it. We got the means to provide all the above. So we
concoct a little explanation and we spin a little yarn and we provide a
little hope...
Hey, man, it's all nonsense. It's fiction personified, the more
fanciful the better. But we believe it at once. Hey, it's doing its
job, who cares? We got business to attend to. We got to eat and hunt
and screw and fight. So don't rock the boat, man. It's alright.
Oh? Truth? You're kidding! Truth is for wimps. It's for losers who
aren't tough enough to survve.
But...maybe now we need truth? Oh, you poor fool! No, seriously, maybe
now that have come together we really need to know the truth. Fool, no!
But truth as a unifying agent, truth now that we are finally capable of
knowing, truth now that those who still believe are more powerful than
the liberated rest of us? No, no, when will you ever learn....? i
mean, there is a hope; there is a truth. No, no, no!
Joseph H
www,humanisation.org
Do those thought give a little meaning, a little comfort, etc.?
Whilst having no problem with truth, comfort generally, I wasn't
specicifically seeking same in this posting. Just clarity.
--- Jim07D6
.
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| User: "Immortalist" |
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| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
15 Mar 2006 01:13:24 AM |
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"Joseph H" <joseph@humanisation.org> wrote in message
news:1142370103.359732.277390@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
So we arrive....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AzxfN8o0G90&search=six%20feet%20under
Hey, we're as tough as anything else. But we want a little explanation;
and we need a little meaning; and we'd like a little comfort; and we'd
like to belong; and we'd like a little harmony....
But we can do it. We got the means to provide all the above. So we
concoct a little explanation and we spin a little yarn and we provide a
little hope...
THE PROBABILITY INSTINCT
It looks as if Kant, who thought our minds structure our perceptions, was
right. Probability was built into our minds. Our minds, the electrochemical
symphony that our narrowly evolved neural ganglia play, impose an
infrastructure on our thinking. The mind imposes a background of time and
space and causal connectedness. Scientists have never seen a "causality" in
the wild. They have seen, and they predict, only space-time events that
follow space-time events. Apples on the tree, then apples in the air, then
apples on the ground. Equations and correlations have replaced causes, just
as science has largely replaced philosophy and religion as a theory of
things. No causal germ in one event unfolds into another event. But the
mind, as eighteenth-century philosopher David Hume observed, makes it seem
so and inserts the causal links in the event chain.
Probability seems to be part of the same mental infrastructure. It forms
part of our mental background or viewing screen along with time and space
and causality and similarity and the topological notions of continuity and
connectedness. We see probability everywhere because it lies in our glasses.
I believe that probability or "randomness" is a psychic instinct or Jungian
archetype or mental trend that helps us organize our perceptions and
memories and most of all our expectations. Probability gives structure to
our competing causal predictions about how the future will unfold in the
next instant or day or season or millennium.
Probability ranks or weights the future alternatives. Our expectations then
blend or average these future alternatives into a single
probability-weighted average. The probability weights do not exist outside
our minds. They have no physical reality but have a powerful psychological
reality rooted in our neural mi-crostructure. Hume also thought that we make
up probability as we go and use it to fill in gaps in our mind schemes or
world views: "Though there be no such thing as chance in the world, our
ignorance of the real cause of any event has the same influence on the
understanding and begets a like species of belief."
This probability instinct seems to cut across cultures and may cut across
species. Besides the probability-laden psychology of scientists and most
nonscientists, the widespread gambling and games of chance in primitive and
modern cultures suggest that probability "reasoning" may be a cultural
constant like hero worship or fertility rituals or incest and adultery
taboos. A cultural constant suggests a biological substrate, and that
requires an evolutionary history.
Ranking future alternatives can help pass on genes. Those who could so rank
may have eaten those who could not. It allows us to bet before we act and
improve the outcome of acting. That forward-looking ability has supreme
survival value in biological evolution, the genetic variation and selection
in the last few million years that has finely sculpted our brains and minds,
and in the prior evolution that sculpted the brains and minds of our
mammalian ancestors in the last 220 million years. Natural selection filters
out organisms as they cross the fuzzy line from the present to the future.
Natural selection favors brain mechanisms that help an organism make its
next move in a changing and dangerous world. These forward-looking brain
mechanisms may run deep in the structure of mammalian and even reptilian
brains. Future studies may find that the brains of chimps and apes and
lesser-brained mammals house a forward-looking probability instinct. At the
other extreme we should not be surprised that scientists have exalted
probability ranking into their grand organizing principle of maximum
probability. Scientists follow their probability instincts as their hominid
forefathers followed theirs. Scientists just know more math.
Fuzzy Thinking - The New Science of Fuzzy Logic
Bart Kosko
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/078688021X/
Man its fun to paste that again, ta da!
Hey, man, it's all nonsense. It's fiction personified, the more
fanciful the better. But we believe it at once. Hey, it's doing its
job, who cares? We got business to attend to. We got to eat and hunt
and screw and fight. So don't rock the boat, man. It's alright.
Oh? Truth? You're kidding! Truth is for wimps. It's for losers who
aren't tough enough to survve.
But...maybe now we need truth? Oh, you poor fool! No, seriously, maybe
now that have come together we really need to know the truth. Fool, no!
But truth as a unifying agent, truth now that we are finally capable of
knowing, truth now that those who still believe are more powerful than
the liberated rest of us? No, no, when will you ever learn....? i
mean, there is a hope; there is a truth. No, no, no!
Joseph H
www,humanisation.org
.
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| User: "Joseph H" |
|
| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
15 Mar 2006 10:35:58 AM |
|
|
Immortalist wrote:
"Joseph H" <joseph@humanisation.org> wrote in message
news:1142370103.359732.277390@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
So we arrive....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AzxfN8o0G90&search=six%20feet%20under
Hey, we're as tough as anything else. But we want a little explanation;
and we need a little meaning; and we'd like a little comfort; and we'd
like to belong; and we'd like a little harmony....
But we can do it. We got the means to provide all the above. So we
concoct a little explanation and we spin a little yarn and we provide a
little hope...
THE PROBABILITY INSTINCT
It looks as if Kant, who thought our minds structure our perceptions, was
right. Probability was built into our minds. Our minds, the electrochemical
symphony that our narrowly evolved neural ganglia play, impose an
infrastructure on our thinking. The mind imposes a background of time and
space and causal connectedness. Scientists have never seen a "causality" in
the wild. They have seen, and they predict, only space-time events that
follow space-time events. Apples on the tree, then apples in the air, then
apples on the ground. Equations and correlations have replaced causes, just
as science has largely replaced philosophy and religion as a theory of
things. No causal germ in one event unfolds into another event. But the
mind, as eighteenth-century philosopher David Hume observed, makes it seem
so and inserts the causal links in the event chain.
Probability seems to be part of the same mental infrastructure. It forms
part of our mental background or viewing screen along with time and space
and causality and similarity and the topological notions of continuity and
connectedness. We see probability everywhere because it lies in our glasses.
I believe that probability or "randomness" is a psychic instinct or Jungian
archetype or mental trend that helps us organize our perceptions and
memories and most of all our expectations. Probability gives structure to
our competing causal predictions about how the future will unfold in the
next instant or day or season or millennium.
Probability ranks or weights the future alternatives. Our expectations then
blend or average these future alternatives into a single
probability-weighted average. The probability weights do not exist outside
our minds. They have no physical reality but have a powerful psychological
reality rooted in our neural mi-crostructure. Hume also thought that we make
up probability as we go and use it to fill in gaps in our mind schemes or
world views: "Though there be no such thing as chance in the world, our
ignorance of the real cause of any event has the same influence on the
understanding and begets a like species of belief."
This probability instinct seems to cut across cultures and may cut across
species. Besides the probability-laden psychology of scientists and most
nonscientists, the widespread gambling and games of chance in primitive and
modern cultures suggest that probability "reasoning" may be a cultural
constant like hero worship or fertility rituals or incest and adultery
taboos. A cultural constant suggests a biological substrate, and that
requires an evolutionary history.
Ranking future alternatives can help pass on genes. Those who could so rank
may have eaten those who could not. It allows us to bet before we act and
improve the outcome of acting. That forward-looking ability has supreme
survival value in biological evolution, the genetic variation and selection
in the last few million years that has finely sculpted our brains and minds,
and in the prior evolution that sculpted the brains and minds of our
mammalian ancestors in the last 220 million years. Natural selection filters
out organisms as they cross the fuzzy line from the present to the future.
Natural selection favors brain mechanisms that help an organism make its
next move in a changing and dangerous world. These forward-looking brain
mechanisms may run deep in the structure of mammalian and even reptilian
brains. Future studies may find that the brains of chimps and apes and
lesser-brained mammals house a forward-looking probability instinct. At the
other extreme we should not be surprised that scientists have exalted
probability ranking into their grand organizing principle of maximum
probability. Scientists follow their probability instincts as their hominid
forefathers followed theirs. Scientists just know more math.
Fuzzy Thinking - The New Science of Fuzzy Logic
Bart Kosko
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/078688021X/
Man its fun to paste that again, ta da!
Great posting, as usual. Will return to it when I have assimilated it.
Hey, man, it's all nonsense. It's fiction personified, the more
fanciful the better. But we believe it at once. Hey, it's doing its
job, who cares? We got business to attend to. We got to eat and hunt
and screw and fight. So don't rock the boat, man. It's alright.
Oh? Truth? You're kidding! Truth is for wimps. It's for losers who
aren't tough enough to survve.
But...maybe now we need truth? Oh, you poor fool! No, seriously, maybe
now that have come together we really need to know the truth. Fool, no!
But truth as a unifying agent, truth now that we are finally capable of
knowing, truth now that those who still believe are more powerful than
the liberated rest of us? No, no, when will you ever learn....? i
mean, there is a hope; there is a truth. No, no, no!
Joseph H
www,humanisation.org
.
|
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| User: "ralph" |
|
| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
15 Mar 2006 12:44:01 PM |
|
|
In message <y8PRf.126843$4l5.122843@dukeread05>, Immortalist
<Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> writes
I believe that probability or "randomness" is a psychic instinct or
Jungian archetype or mental trend that helps us organize our
perceptions and memories and most of all our expectations
And do you think a pollen grain following Brownian movement shares this
psychic instinct?
--
ralph
.
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| User: "Immortalist" |
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| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
16 Mar 2006 01:14:30 AM |
|
|
"ralph" <ralph@eddlewood.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:AY2fG0BxBGGEFwai@eddlewood.demon.co.uk...
In message <y8PRf.126843$4l5.122843@dukeread05>, Immortalist
<Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> writes
I believe that probability or "randomness" is a psychic instinct or
Jungian archetype or mental trend that helps us organize our perceptions
and memories and most of all our expectations
And do you think a pollen grain following Brownian movement shares this
psychic instinct?
Because most mathematical discussions of algorithms focus on their
guaranteed or mathematically provable powers, people sometimes make the
elementary mistake of thinking that a process that makes use of chance for
randomness is not an algorithm. But even long division makes good use of
randomness
326574 ÷ 47 = 7?
Does the divisor go into the dividend six or seven times? Who knows? Who
cares? You don't have to know; youu don't have any wit or descernment to do
long division. The algorithm directs you just to choose a digit--at random,
if you like--and check out the result. If the chosen number turns out to be
too small, increase it by one and start over; if too large, decrease it. the
good thing about long division is that it always works eventually, even if
you are maximally stupid in making your first choice, in which case it just
takes a little longer. Achieving success on hard tasks in spite of utter
stupidity is what makes computers seem magical--how could something as
mindless as a machine do something as smart as that? Not surprisingly, then,
the tactic of finessing ignorance by randomly generating a candidate and
then testing it out mechanically is a ubiquitous feature of interesting
algorithms. Not only does it not interfere with their provable powers as
algorithms, it is often the key to their power.
When looking at an E-Coli bacterium swimming around, it is easier to see how
randomness can buy food.
Organisms are problem sovers seeking better conditiions -- even the lowest
organism performs trial and error mearsurements with a distinct aim. This
image brought to mind Berg's striking film of chemotaxic bacteria. He showed
how:
A bacterium's flagellar motor makes it run and tumble randomly until the
bacterium senses a gradient of nutrient. The bacterium then reduces the
frequency of tumbling and lengthens the runs towards a greater concentration
of nutrient.
The random element is the tumbling: the new direction of swimming bears
little relationship to the previous path before the tumble. And so the
cell's path is a random walk unless something else happens. And the
something else is simply suppressing the tumbling: When finding mare and
more food, the bacterium swims longer on its current straight path. This
enables it to home in on the food source, perhaps a decaying morsal whose
organic molecules are diffusing away into the water near the bottom of the
pond (remember what a sugar cube looks like when disolving in the bottom of
a cup, how the sugar gradually spreads out).
Now most philosophers looking through a magnifying glass at that food
finding path would have ascribed intelligence to that purposeful performance
of the little bacterium.
At such a marginal magnification, it would seem to home in on the morsal.
But the bacterium has no brain: It's just a single cell with some inherited
simple abilities such as swimming, tumbling, and sensing increasing yield.
One the Most basic form of multicellular creatures, consisting only of
SOCIALIZING CELLS sensing each other. Advanced organisms such as the one
reading these words comprise many billions of cells that are organized into
enormously elaborate structures during the process of development from egg
to offspring. Nonlinear mathematics can provide a qualitative sketch of the
self organization of a community of cells, as we can illustrate with the
help of a strange creature called slime mold.
The slime mold lies halfway between a collection of single cells and an
organism. Like the ant hive Dictyostelium discoideum is a superorganism. At
times it is multicellular (with around 100,00 cells), while at others, its
cells wander independently. When the bacteria that make up its food are
plentiful, individual cells feed voraciously, behaving like solitary
wanderers and multiplying by direct cell division.
Eventually, however, the colony runs short of food. Now the cells "notice"
each other. For nonlinear reasons not yet fully understood, certain cells in
the colony become active and act as pacemakers, "ringleaders" that send out
rhythmic pulses of a chemical called cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP).
This is a ubiquitous molecule in biology that acts as a molecular message
between neighboring cells. It is a glucose distress signal, announcing they
have run out of food.
This clarion call to close ranks and organize travels at a few microns a
second. Cells amplify and pass on the message, a form of feedback mechanism
providing the nonlinearity that induces still more cells to hone in on the
pacemaker centers.
There are two additional ingredients:
Once a cell has released a burst of cAMP it cannot immediately respond to
another signal, going into a "refractory state" before returning to an
excitable condition.
The cells also exude another enzyme -- phosphodiesterase -- that destroys
cAMP, setting up a gradient of the chemical that provides a signpost.
The starving cells slither toward the pacemaker cells, in the direction of
increasing cAMP concentration. Aggregating populations can produce
concentric and spiral waves that bear a compelling resemblance to the spiral
waves occurring in the BZ reaction. This is no surprise: though the details,
the positive and negative feedback processes are the same.
Once the cells have formed a slimy mass, they begin to differentiate and a
tip forms that secretes cAMP continuously. The whole mass becomes organized
into a glistening multicellular "slug," with a head and a tail, that
wriggles in search of light and water.
All in all, it takes several hours for these cells to form this simple
organism. Between one and two millimeters long, it crawls along under the
leadership of the pulsating source at its tip. It then rights itself to form
a hard stalk above which perches a small head containing spores; eventually,
the head breaks open and the wind casts its spores far and wide. If they
settle in a suitable place, they can germinate and begin the cycle of this
strange organism's life anew.
Since the early part of the century it has been known that the pattern of
organization of a living system is always a network pattern. However, we
also know that not all networks are living systems. According to Maturana
and Varela, the key characteristic of a living network is that it
continually produces itself.
Thus "the being and doing of [living systems] are inseparable, and this is
their specific mode of organization." Autopoiesis, or "self making," is a
network pattern in which the function of each component is to participate in
the production or transformation of other components in the network. In this
way the network continually makes itself. It is produced by its components
and in turn produces those components.
Since all components of an autopoietic network are produced by other
components in the network, the entire system is organizationally closed,
even though it is open with regard to the flow of energy and matter. This
organizational closure implies that a living system is self organizing in
the sense that its order and behavior are not imposed by the environment but
are established by the system itself. In other words, living systems are
autonomous.
They interact with the environment through a continual exchange of energy
and matter. But this interaction does not determine their organization --
they are self organizing.
An autopoietic network is not a set of relations among static components
(like for example the pattern of organization of a crystal), but a set of
relations among processes of production of components. If these processes
stop, so does the entire organization. In other words, autopoietic networks
must continually regenerate themselves to maintain their organization.
In the emerging theory of living systems the process of life -- the
continual embodiment of an autopoietic pattern of organization in a
dissipative structure -- is identified with cognition, the process of
knowing. This implies a radically new concept of mind, which is perhaps the
most revolutionary and most exciting aspect of this theory, as it promises
finally to overcome the Cartesian division between mind and matter.
According to the theory of living systems, mind is not a thing but a
process -- the very process of life. In other words, the organizing activity
of living systems, at all levels of life, is mental activity.
The interactions of a living organism -- plant, animal, or human -o with its
environment are cognitive, or mental interactions. Thus life and cognition
become inseparably connected. Mind -- or, more accurately, mental process --
is immanent in matter at all levels of life.
Bateson listed a set of criteria that systems have to satisfy for mind to
occur. Any system that satisfies those criteria will be able to develop the
processes we associate with mind -- learning, memory, decision making, and
so on. In Bateson's view these mental processes are a necessary and
inevitable consequence of a certain complexity that begins long before
organisms develop brains and higher nervous systems. He also emphasized that
mind is manifest not only in individual organisms, but also in social
systems and ecosystems.
Nature's language is a language of relationships. Biological form consists
of relationships, not of parts.
The Santiago theory is the same as Bateson's -- the identification of
cognition, the process of knowing, with the process of life. This represents
a radical expansion of the traditional concept of mind. According to the
Santiago theory, the brain is not necessary for mind to exist. A bacterium,
or a plant, has no brain but has a mind. The simplest organisms are capable
of perception and thus of cognition. They do not see, but they nevertheless
perceive changes, hot and cold, higher and lower concentrations of some
chemical, and the like.
The new concept of cognition, the process of knowing, is thus much broader
than that of thinking. It involves perception, emotion, and action -- the
entire process of life. In the human realm cognition also includes language,
conceptual thinking, and all the other attributes of human consciousness.
The general concept, however, is much broader and does not necessarily
involve thinking.
The Santiago theory provides, in my view, the first coherent scientific
framework that really overcomes the Cartesian split. Mind and matter no
longer appear to belong to two separate categories but are seen as
representing merely different aspects, or dimensions, of the same phenomenon
of life.
Descartes's characterization of mind as "the thinking thing" is finally
abandoned. Mind is not a thing but a process -- the process of cognition,
which is identified with the process of life. The brain is a specific
structure through which this process operates. The relationship between mind
and brain, therefore, is one between process and structure.
The brain is, of course, not the only structure through which the process of
cognition operates. The entire dissipative structure of the organism
participate in the process of cognition, whether or not the organism has a
brain and a higher nervous system.
Moreover, recent research indicates strongly that in the human organism the
nervous system, the immune system, and the endocrine system, which
traditionally have been viewed as three separate systems, in fact form a
single cognitive network.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.skeptic/browse_frm/thread/4219f97fc6dbae5a/b55b54bd3468436a?hl=en#b55b54bd3468436a
--
ralph
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Mz_cYSO7sqk&search=six%20feet%20under
http://youtube.com/watch?v=h0uxlfR7F1w&search=six%20feet%20under
.
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
16 Mar 2006 01:02:24 PM |
|
|
Immortalist wrote:
"ralph" <ralph@eddlewood.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:AY2fG0BxBGGEFwai@eddlewood.demon.co.uk...
In message <y8PRf.126843$4l5.122843@dukeread05>, Immortalist
<Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> writes
Unbelieveable! How do you know so much? Read it, folks, and weep - and
cheer - that one small head can know so much!
I believe that probability or "randomness" is a psychic instinct or
Jungian archetype or mental trend that helps us organize our perceptions
and memories and most of all our expectations
And do you think a pollen grain following Brownian movement shares this
psychic instinct?
Because most mathematical discussions of algorithms focus on their
guaranteed or mathematically provable powers, people sometimes make the
elementary mistake of thinking that a process that makes use of chance for
randomness is not an algorithm. But even long division makes good use of
randomness
326574 =F7 47 =3D 7?
Does the divisor go into the dividend six or seven times? Who knows? Who
cares? You don't have to know; youu don't have any wit or descernment to =
do
long division. The algorithm directs you just to choose a digit--at rando=
m,
if you like--and check out the result. If the chosen number turns out to =
be
too small, increase it by one and start over; if too large, decrease it. =
the
good thing about long division is that it always works eventually, even if
you are maximally stupid in making your first choice, in which case it ju=
st
takes a little longer. Achieving success on hard tasks in spite of utter
stupidity is what makes computers seem magical--how could something as
mindless as a machine do something as smart as that? Not surprisingly, th=
en,
the tactic of finessing ignorance by randomly generating a candidate and
then testing it out mechanically is a ubiquitous feature of interesting
algorithms. Not only does it not interfere with their provable powers as
algorithms, it is often the key to their power.
When looking at an E-Coli bacterium swimming around, it is easier to see =
how
randomness can buy food.
Organisms are problem sovers seeking better conditiions -- even the lowest
organism performs trial and error mearsurements with a distinct aim. This
image brought to mind Berg's striking film of chemotaxic bacteria. He sho=
wed
how:
A bacterium's flagellar motor makes it run and tumble randomly until the
bacterium senses a gradient of nutrient. The bacterium then reduces the
frequency of tumbling and lengthens the runs towards a greater concentrat=
ion
of nutrient.
The random element is the tumbling: the new direction of swimming bears
little relationship to the previous path before the tumble. And so the
cell's path is a random walk unless something else happens. And the
something else is simply suppressing the tumbling: When finding mare and
more food, the bacterium swims longer on its current straight path. This
enables it to home in on the food source, perhaps a decaying morsal whose
organic molecules are diffusing away into the water near the bottom of the
pond (remember what a sugar cube looks like when disolving in the bottom =
of
a cup, how the sugar gradually spreads out).
Now most philosophers looking through a magnifying glass at that food
finding path would have ascribed intelligence to that purposeful performa=
nce
of the little bacterium.
At such a marginal magnification, it would seem to home in on the morsal.
But the bacterium has no brain: It's just a single cell with some inherit=
ed
simple abilities such as swimming, tumbling, and sensing increasing yield.
One the Most basic form of multicellular creatures, consisting only of
SOCIALIZING CELLS sensing each other. Advanced organisms such as the one
reading these words comprise many billions of cells that are organized in=
to
enormously elaborate structures during the process of development from egg
to offspring. Nonlinear mathematics can provide a qualitative sketch of t=
he
self organization of a community of cells, as we can illustrate with the
help of a strange creature called slime mold.
The slime mold lies halfway between a collection of single cells and an
organism. Like the ant hive Dictyostelium discoideum is a superorganism. =
At
times it is multicellular (with around 100,00 cells), while at others, its
cells wander independently. When the bacteria that make up its food are
plentiful, individual cells feed voraciously, behaving like solitary
wanderers and multiplying by direct cell division.
Eventually, however, the colony runs short of food. Now the cells "notice"
each other. For nonlinear reasons not yet fully understood, certain cells=
in
the colony become active and act as pacemakers, "ringleaders" that send o=
ut
rhythmic pulses of a chemical called cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP=
)=2E
This is a ubiquitous molecule in biology that acts as a molecular message
between neighboring cells. It is a glucose distress signal, announcing th=
ey
have run out of food.
This clarion call to close ranks and organize travels at a few microns a
second. Cells amplify and pass on the message, a form of feedback mechani=
sm
providing the nonlinearity that induces still more cells to hone in on the
pacemaker centers.
There are two additional ingredients:
Once a cell has released a burst of cAMP it cannot immediately respond to
another signal, going into a "refractory state" before returning to an
excitable condition.
The cells also exude another enzyme -- phosphodiesterase -- that destroys
cAMP, setting up a gradient of the chemical that provides a signpost.
The starving cells slither toward the pacemaker cells, in the direction of
increasing cAMP concentration. Aggregating populations can produce
concentric and spiral waves that bear a compelling resemblance to the spi=
ral
waves occurring in the BZ reaction. This is no surprise: though the detai=
ls,
the positive and negative feedback processes are the same.
Once the cells have formed a slimy mass, they begin to differentiate and a
tip forms that secretes cAMP continuously. The whole mass becomes organiz=
ed
into a glistening multicellular "slug," with a head and a tail, that
wriggles in search of light and water.
All in all, it takes several hours for these cells to form this simple
organism. Between one and two millimeters long, it crawls along under the
leadership of the pulsating source at its tip. It then rights itself to f=
orm
a hard stalk above which perches a small head containing spores; eventual=
ly,
the head breaks open and the wind casts its spores far and wide. If they
settle in a suitable place, they can germinate and begin the cycle of this
strange organism's life anew.
Since the early part of the century it has been known that the pattern of
organization of a living system is always a network pattern. However, we
also know that not all networks are living systems. According to Maturana
and Varela, the key characteristic of a living network is that it
continually produces itself.
Thus "the being and doing of [living systems] are inseparable, and this is
their specific mode of organization." Autopoiesis, or "self making," is a
network pattern in which the function of each component is to participate=
in
the production or transformation of other components in the network. In t=
his
way the network continually makes itself. It is produced by its components
and in turn produces those components.
Since all components of an autopoietic network are produced by other
components in the network, the entire system is organizationally closed,
even though it is open with regard to the flow of energy and matter. This
organizational closure implies that a living system is self organizing in
the sense that its order and behavior are not imposed by the environment =
but
are established by the system itself. In other words, living systems are
autonomous.
They interact with the environment through a continual exchange of energy
and matter. But this interaction does not determine their organization --
they are self organizing.
An autopoietic network is not a set of relations among static components
(like for example the pattern of organization of a crystal), but a set of
relations among processes of production of components. If these processes
stop, so does the entire organization. In other words, autopoietic networ=
ks
must continually regenerate themselves to maintain their organization.
In the emerging theory of living systems the process of life -- the
continual embodiment of an autopoietic pattern of organization in a
dissipative structure -- is identified with cognition, the process of
knowing. This implies a radically new concept of mind, which is perhaps t=
he
most revolutionary and most exciting aspect of this theory, as it promises
finally to overcome the Cartesian division between mind and matter.
According to the theory of living systems, mind is not a thing but a
process -- the very process of life. In other words, the organizing activ=
ity
of living systems, at all levels of life, is mental activity.
The interactions of a living organism -- plant, animal, or human -o with =
its
environment are cognitive, or mental interactions. Thus life and cognition
become inseparably connected. Mind -- or, more accurately, mental process=
--
is immanent in matter at all levels of life.
Bateson listed a set of criteria that systems have to satisfy for mind to
occur. Any system that satisfies those criteria will be able to develop t=
he
processes we associate with mind -- learning, memory, decision making, and
so on. In Bateson's view these mental processes are a necessary and
inevitable consequence of a certain complexity that begins long before
organisms develop brains and higher nervous systems. He also emphasized t=
hat
mind is manifest not only in individual organisms, but also in social
systems and ecosystems.
Nature's language is a language of relationships. Biological form consists
of relationships, not of parts.
The Santiago theory is the same as Bateson's -- the identification of
cognition, the process of knowing, with the process of life. This represe=
nts
a radical expansion of the traditional concept of mind. According to the
Santiago theory, the brain is not necessary for mind to exist. A bacteriu=
m,
or a plant, has no brain but has a mind. The simplest organisms are capab=
le
of perception and thus of cognition. They do not see, but they neverthele=
ss
perceive changes, hot and cold, higher and lower concentrations of some
chemical, and the like.
The new concept of cognition, the process of knowing, is thus much broader
than that of thinking. It involves perception, emotion, and action -- the
entire process of life. In the human realm cognition also includes langua=
ge,
conceptual thinking, and all the other attributes of human consciousness.
The general concept, however, is much broader and does not necessarily
involve thinking.
The Santiago theory provides, in my view, the first coherent scientific
framework that really overcomes the Cartesian split. Mind and matter no
longer appear to belong to two separate categories but are seen as
representing merely different aspects, or dimensions, of the same phenome=
non
of life.
Descartes's characterization of mind as "the thinking thing" is finally
abandoned. Mind is not a thing but a process -- the process of cognition,
which is identified with the process of life. The brain is a specific
structure through which this process operates. The relationship between m=
ind
and brain, therefore, is one between process and structure.
The brain is, of course, not the only structure through which the process=
of
cognition operates. The entire dissipative structure of the organism
participate in the process of cognition, whether or not the organism has a
brain and a higher nervous system.
Moreover, recent research indicates strongly that in the human organism t=
he
nervous system, the immune system, and the endocrine system, which
traditionally have been viewed as three separate systems, in fact form a
single cognitive network.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.skeptic/browse_frm/thread/4219f97fc6db=
ae5a/b55b54bd3468436a?hl=3Den#b55b54bd3468436a
--
ralph
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3DMz_cYSO7sqk&search=3Dsix%20feet%20under
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3Dh0uxlfR7F1w&search=3Dsix%20feet%20under
.
|
|
|
| User: "Immortalist" |
|
| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
17 Mar 2006 01:32:39 AM |
|
|
"Joseph H" <joseph@humanisation.org> wrote in message
news:1142535744.239403.100460@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Immortalist wrote:
"ralph" <ralph@eddlewood.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:AY2fG0BxBGGEFwai@eddlewood.demon.co.uk...
In message <y8PRf.126843$4l5.122843@dukeread05>, Immortalist
<Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> writes
--Unbelieveable! How do you know so much?
--Read it, folks, and weep - and
--cheer - that one small head can know so much!
Thank you, but bookworms just know *****, good habit thats all. Nothing
special.
Do you think that the examples show a range of activities that would be
short and long of the brownian motion example and could be used to tighten
the definitions we are seeking?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
INFORMATION AND LIFE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(1)
A universal computer is indeed
universal and can emulate any process.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(2)
The essence of life is a process.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(3)
There exist criteria by which we
are able to distinguish living
from non-living things.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Interlude A:
Accepting (1), (2), and (3) implies
the possibility of life in a computer.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LIFE AND REALITY
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(4)
If somebody manages to develop life in
a computer environment, which satisfies (3),
it follows from (2) that these life-forms
are just as much alive as you and I.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(5)
Such an artificial organism must perceive a
reality (R2), which for itself is just as real
as our "real" reality (R1) is for us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(6)
From (5) we conclude that (R1) and (R2) has the
same ontological status. Although (R2) in a material
way is embedded in (R1), (R2) is independent of (R1).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
REALITY AND PHYSICS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(7)
If (R1) and (R2) have the same ontological status
it might be possible to learn something about the
fundamental properties of realities in general, and
of (R1) in particular, by studying the details of
different (R2's). An example of such a property is
the physics of reality.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://tinyurl.com/2e4fg
Steven Levy
Pantheon Books New York
Copyright © 1992 by Steven Levy
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679743898/
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sci.physics/browse_frm/thread/efd780c787088d02/4aaeecc11a63ba2a#4aaeecc11a63ba2a
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Tq4rqNV2388&search=morbid%20angel
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mjKcKrqw_FY&search=morbid%20angel
I believe that probability or "randomness" is a psychic instinct or
Jungian archetype or mental trend that helps us organize our perceptions
and memories and most of all our expectations
And do you think a pollen grain following Brownian movement shares this
psychic instinct?
Because most mathematical discussions of algorithms focus on their
guaranteed or mathematically provable powers, people sometimes make the
elementary mistake of thinking that a process that makes use of chance for
randomness is not an algorithm. But even long division makes good use of
randomness
326574 ÷ 47 = 7?
Does the divisor go into the dividend six or seven times? Who knows? Who
cares? You don't have to know; youu don't have any wit or descernment to
do
long division. The algorithm directs you just to choose a digit--at
random,
if you like--and check out the result. If the chosen number turns out to
be
too small, increase it by one and start over; if too large, decrease it.
the
good thing about long division is that it always works eventually, even if
you are maximally stupid in making your first choice, in which case it
just
takes a little longer. Achieving success on hard tasks in spite of utter
stupidity is what makes computers seem magical--how could something as
mindless as a machine do something as smart as that? Not surprisingly,
then,
the tactic of finessing ignorance by randomly generating a candidate and
then testing it out mechanically is a ubiquitous feature of interesting
algorithms. Not only does it not interfere with their provable powers as
algorithms, it is often the key to their power.
When looking at an E-Coli bacterium swimming around, it is easier to see
how
randomness can buy food.
Organisms are problem sovers seeking better conditiions -- even the lowest
organism performs trial and error mearsurements with a distinct aim. This
image brought to mind Berg's striking film of chemotaxic bacteria. He
showed
how:
A bacterium's flagellar motor makes it run and tumble randomly until the
bacterium senses a gradient of nutrient. The bacterium then reduces the
frequency of tumbling and lengthens the runs towards a greater
concentration
of nutrient.
The random element is the tumbling: the new direction of swimming bears
little relationship to the previous path before the tumble. And so the
cell's path is a random walk unless something else happens. And the
something else is simply suppressing the tumbling: When finding mare and
more food, the bacterium swims longer on its current straight path. This
enables it to home in on the food source, perhaps a decaying morsal whose
organic molecules are diffusing away into the water near the bottom of the
pond (remember what a sugar cube looks like when disolving in the bottom
of
a cup, how the sugar gradually spreads out).
Now most philosophers looking through a magnifying glass at that food
finding path would have ascribed intelligence to that purposeful
performance
of the little bacterium.
At such a marginal magnification, it would seem to home in on the morsal.
But the bacterium has no brain: It's just a single cell with some
inherited
simple abilities such as swimming, tumbling, and sensing increasing yield.
One the Most basic form of multicellular creatures, consisting only of
SOCIALIZING CELLS sensing each other. Advanced organisms such as the one
reading these words comprise many billions of cells that are organized
into
enormously elaborate structures during the process of development from egg
to offspring. Nonlinear mathematics can provide a qualitative sketch of
the
self organization of a community of cells, as we can illustrate with the
help of a strange creature called slime mold.
The slime mold lies halfway between a collection of single cells and an
organism. Like the ant hive Dictyostelium discoideum is a superorganism.
At
times it is multicellular (with around 100,00 cells), while at others, its
cells wander independently. When the bacteria that make up its food are
plentiful, individual cells feed voraciously, behaving like solitary
wanderers and multiplying by direct cell division.
Eventually, however, the colony runs short of food. Now the cells "notice"
each other. For nonlinear reasons not yet fully understood, certain cells
in
the colony become active and act as pacemakers, "ringleaders" that send
out
rhythmic pulses of a chemical called cyclic adenosine monophosphate
(cAMP).
This is a ubiquitous molecule in biology that acts as a molecular message
between neighboring cells. It is a glucose distress signal, announcing
they
have run out of food.
This clarion call to close ranks and organize travels at a few microns a
second. Cells amplify and pass on the message, a form of feedback
mechanism
providing the nonlinearity that induces still more cells to hone in on the
pacemaker centers.
There are two additional ingredients:
Once a cell has released a burst of cAMP it cannot immediately respond to
another signal, going into a "refractory state" before returning to an
excitable condition.
The cells also exude another enzyme -- phosphodiesterase -- that destroys
cAMP, setting up a gradient of the chemical that provides a signpost.
The starving cells slither toward the pacemaker cells, in the direction of
increasing cAMP concentration. Aggregating populations can produce
concentric and spiral waves that bear a compelling resemblance to the
spiral
waves occurring in the BZ reaction. This is no surprise: though the
details,
the positive and negative feedback processes are the same.
Once the cells have formed a slimy mass, they begin to differentiate and a
tip forms that secretes cAMP continuously. The whole mass becomes
organized
into a glistening multicellular "slug," with a head and a tail, that
wriggles in search of light and water.
All in all, it takes several hours for these cells to form this simple
organism. Between one and two millimeters long, it crawls along under the
leadership of the pulsating source at its tip. It then rights itself to
form
a hard stalk above which perches a small head containing spores;
eventually,
the head breaks open and the wind casts its spores far and wide. If they
settle in a suitable place, they can germinate and begin the cycle of this
strange organism's life anew.
Since the early part of the century it has been known that the pattern of
organization of a living system is always a network pattern. However, we
also know that not all networks are living systems. According to Maturana
and Varela, the key characteristic of a living network is that it
continually produces itself.
Thus "the being and doing of [living systems] are inseparable, and this is
their specific mode of organization." Autopoiesis, or "self making," is a
network pattern in which the function of each component is to participate
in
the production or transformation of other components in the network. In
this
way the network continually makes itself. It is produced by its components
and in turn produces those components.
Since all components of an autopoietic network are produced by other
components in the network, the entire system is organizationally closed,
even though it is open with regard to the flow of energy and matter. This
organizational closure implies that a living system is self organizing in
the sense that its order and behavior are not imposed by the environment
but
are established by the system itself. In other words, living systems are
autonomous.
They interact with the environment through a continual exchange of energy
and matter. But this interaction does not determine their organization --
they are self organizing.
An autopoietic network is not a set of relations among static components
(like for example the pattern of organization of a crystal), but a set of
relations among processes of production of components. If these processes
stop, so does the entire organization. In other words, autopoietic
networks
must continually regenerate themselves to maintain their organization.
In the emerging theory of living systems the process of life -- the
continual embodiment of an autopoietic pattern of organization in a
dissipative structure -- is identified with cognition, the process of
knowing. This implies a radically new concept of mind, which is perhaps
the
most revolutionary and most exciting aspect of this theory, as it promises
finally to overcome the Cartesian division between mind and matter.
According to the theory of living systems, mind is not a thing but a
process -- the very process of life. In other words, the organizing
activity
of living systems, at all levels of life, is mental activity.
The interactions of a living organism -- plant, animal, or human -o with
its
environment are cognitive, or mental interactions. Thus life and cognition
become inseparably connected. Mind -- or, more accurately, mental
process --
is immanent in matter at all levels of life.
Bateson listed a set of criteria that systems have to satisfy for mind to
occur. Any system that satisfies those criteria will be able to develop
the
processes we associate with mind -- learning, memory, decision making, and
so on. In Bateson's view these mental processes are a necessary and
inevitable consequence of a certain complexity that begins long before
organisms develop brains and higher nervous systems. He also emphasized
that
mind is manifest not only in individual organisms, but also in social
systems and ecosystems.
Nature's language is a language of relationships. Biological form consists
of relationships, not of parts.
The Santiago theory is the same as Bateson's -- the identification of
cognition, the process of knowing, with the process of life. This
represents
a radical expansion of the traditional concept of mind. According to the
Santiago theory, the brain is not necessary for mind to exist. A
bacterium,
or a plant, has no brain but has a mind. The simplest organisms are
capable
of perception and thus of cognition. They do not see, but they
nevertheless
perceive changes, hot and cold, higher and lower concentrations of some
chemical, and the like.
The new concept of cognition, the process of knowing, is thus much broader
than that of thinking. It involves perception, emotion, and action -- the
entire process of life. In the human realm cognition also includes
language,
conceptual thinking, and all the other attributes of human consciousness.
The general concept, however, is much broader and does not necessarily
involve thinking.
The Santiago theory provides, in my view, the first coherent scientific
framework that really overcomes the Cartesian split. Mind and matter no
longer appear to belong to two separate categories but are seen as
representing merely different aspects, or dimensions, of the same
phenomenon
of life.
Descartes's characterization of mind as "the thinking thing" is finally
abandoned. Mind is not a thing but a process -- the process of cognition,
which is identified with the process of life. The brain is a specific
structure through which this process operates. The relationship between
mind
and brain, therefore, is one between process and structure.
The brain is, of course, not the only structure through which the process
of
cognition operates. The entire dissipative structure of the organism
participate in the process of cognition, whether or not the organism has a
brain and a higher nervous system.
Moreover, recent research indicates strongly that in the human organism
the
nervous system, the immune system, and the endocrine system, which
traditionally have been viewed as three separate systems, in fact form a
single cognitive network.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.skeptic/browse_frm/thread/4219f97fc6dbae5a/b55b54bd3468436a?hl=en#b55b54bd3468436a
--
ralph
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Mz_cYSO7sqk&search=six%20feet%20under
http://youtube.com/watch?v=h0uxlfR7F1w&search=six%20feet%20under
.
|
|
|
| User: "ralph" |
|
| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
17 Mar 2006 12:33:54 PM |
|
|
In message <CCtSf.127535$4l5.75694@dukeread05>, Immortalist
<Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> writes
"Joseph H" <joseph@humanisation.org> wrote in message
news:1142535744.239403.100460@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Immortalist wrote:
"ralph" <ralph@eddlewood.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:AY2fG0BxBGGEFwai@eddlewood.demon.co.uk...
In message <y8PRf.126843$4l5.122843@dukeread05>, Immortalist
<Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> writes
--Unbelieveable! How do you know so much?
--Read it, folks, and weep - and
--cheer - that one small head can know so much!
Thank you, but bookworms just know *****, good habit thats all. Nothing
special.
Well, I must first congratulate Joseph on coaxing out a coherent
response which I signally failed to achieve.
Do you think that the examples show a range of activities that would be
short and long of the brownian motion example and could be used to tighten
the definitions we are seeking?
Do these follow? I am always keen to know the subject of a discussion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
INFORMATION AND LIFE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(1)
A universal computer is indeed
universal and can emulate any process.
It is also, at least at present, no more than a hypothesis.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(2)
The essence of life is a process.
The essence of life is its ability to reproduce itself.
I must digress here to admit that I have not read "Autopoiesis and
Cognition". I was, however, at school with the late lamented Stafford
Beer, who wrote the preface to it. He told me that he had read it
several times, and still did not understand it. I took that as a hint.
Stafford was interested in the concept of the autopoietic society - that
is to say, humans as the smallest entities. You wrote:
They interact with the environment through a continual exchange of
energy and matter. But this interaction does not determine their
organization -- they are self organizing.
An autopoietic network is not a set of relations among static components
(like for example the pattern of organization of a crystal), but a set
of relations among processes of production of components. If these
processes stop, so does the entire organization. In other words,
autopoietic networks must continually regenerate themselves to maintain
their organization."
So far, so good. But you continue:
"In the emerging theory of living systems the process of life -- the
continual embodiment of an autopoietic pattern of organization in a
dissipative structure -- is identified with cognition, the process of
knowing. This implies a radically new concept of mind, which is perhaps
the most revolutionary and most exciting aspect of this theory, as it
promises finally to overcome the Cartesian division between mind and
matter."
Now, this was all a long time ago - I'm not sure how long? I have heard
no mention of it since: has their been any fulfillment of this promise?
"According to the theory of living systems, mind is not a thing but a
process -- the very process of life. In other words, the organizing
activity of living systems, at all levels of life, is mental activity.
The interactions of a living organism -- plant, animal, or human -o with
its environment are cognitive, or mental interactions. Thus life and
cognition become inseparably connected. Mind -- or, more accurately,
mental process -- is immanent in matter at all levels of life."
This is clearly the most contentious of your (or M&V's) assertions.
Cognition, and mental interactions, need something in which to take
place. We call this something "neurons", and would assert that no
neurons, no mental activity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(3)
There exist criteria by which we
are able to distinguish living
from non-living things.
So far, most people would consider the difference to be the ability to
reproduce.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Interlude A:
Accepting (1), (2), and (3) implies
the possibility of life in a computer.
But (1) is circular. If you can develop a computer which can emulate a
human being, then you have the possibility of human life in a computer.
This does not depend on (2) or I3), but neither does it take the
argument further.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LIFE AND REALITY
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(4)
If somebody manages to develop life in
a computer environment, which satisfies (3),
it follows from (2) that these life-forms
are just as much alive as you and I.
By definition - but still no advance.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(5)
Such an artificial organism must perceive a
reality (R2), which for itself is just as real
as our "real" reality (R1) is for us.
Might, not must. Perception comes a long way after life - it took us
around 4 billion years (depending where you start).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(6)
From (5) we conclude that (R1) and (R2) has the
same ontological status. Although (R2) in a material
way is embedded in (R1), (R2) is independent of (R1).
What do you mean by R2 being embedded in R1?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
REALITY AND PHYSICS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(7)
If (R1) and (R2) have the same ontological status
it might be possible to learn something about the
fundamental properties of realities in general, and
of (R1) in particular, by studying the details of
different (R2's). An example of such a property is
the physics of reality.
This seems a very long-winded way of improving our knowledge of physics.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--
ralph
.
|
|
|
| User: "Joseph H" |
|
| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
17 Mar 2006 01:44:26 PM |
|
|
Ah, I see. Once again I begin a thread with a fairly ineresting
premise: that human beings use belief as a surrogate for knowledge. And
again the anoraks take over with a riveting discussion about Brownian
motion and the end of the Cartesian mind-body split. Fascinating, I'm
sure- but not really addressing my central proposition which is that
belief has served its time and its purpose and that it's time we moved
onto knowledge as the source and the basis of our meaning.
But carry on, guys. Fight to the death, like rutting stags!
ralph wrote:
In message <CCtSf.127535$4l5.75694@dukeread05>, Immortalist
<Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> writes
"Joseph H" <joseph@humanisation.org> wrote in message
news:1142535744.239403.100460@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Immortalist wrote:
"ralph" <ralph@eddlewood.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:AY2fG0BxBGGEFwai@eddlewood.demon.co.uk...
In message <y8PRf.126843$4l5.122843@dukeread05>, Immortalist
<Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> writes
--Unbelieveable! How do you know so much?
--Read it, folks, and weep - and
--cheer - that one small head can know so much!
Thank you, but bookworms just know *****, good habit thats all. Nothing
special.
Well, I must first congratulate Joseph on coaxing out a coherent
response which I signally failed to achieve.
Do you think that the examples show a range of activities that would be
short and long of the brownian motion example and could be used to tighten
the definitions we are seeking?
Do these follow? I am always keen to know the subject of a discussion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
INFORMATION AND LIFE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(1)
A universal computer is indeed
universal and can emulate any process.
It is also, at least at present, no more than a hypothesis.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(2)
The essence of life is a process.
The essence of life is its ability to reproduce itself.
I must digress here to admit that I have not read "Autopoiesis and
Cognition". I was, however, at school with the late lamented Stafford
Beer, who wrote the preface to it. He told me that he had read it
several times, and still did not understand it. I took that as a hint.
Stafford was interested in the concept of the autopoietic society - that
is to say, humans as the smallest entities. You wrote:
They interact with the environment through a continual exchange of
energy and matter. But this interaction does not determine their
organization -- they are self organizing.
An autopoietic network is not a set of relations among static components
(like for example the pattern of organization of a crystal), but a set
of relations among processes of production of components. If these
processes stop, so does the entire organization. In other words,
autopoietic networks must continually regenerate themselves to maintain
their organization."
So far, so good. But you continue:
"In the emerging theory of living systems the process of life -- the
continual embodiment of an autopoietic pattern of organization in a
dissipative structure -- is identified with cognition, the process of
knowing. This implies a radically new concept of mind, which is perhaps
the most revolutionary and most exciting aspect of this theory, as it
promises finally to overcome the Cartesian division between mind and
matter."
Now, this was all a long time ago - I'm not sure how long? I have heard
no mention of it since: has their been any fulfillment of this promise?
"According to the theory of living systems, mind is not a thing but a
process -- the very process of life. In other words, the organizing
activity of living systems, at all levels of life, is mental activity.
The interactions of a living organism -- plant, animal, or human -o with
its environment are cognitive, or mental interactions. Thus life and
cognition become inseparably connected. Mind -- or, more accurately,
mental process -- is immanent in matter at all levels of life."
This is clearly the most contentious of your (or M&V's) assertions.
Cognition, and mental interactions, need something in which to take
place. We call this something "neurons", and would assert that no
neurons, no mental activity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(3)
There exist criteria by which we
are able to distinguish living
from non-living things.
So far, most people would consider the difference to be the ability to
reproduce.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Interlude A:
Accepting (1), (2), and (3) implies
the possibility of life in a computer.
But (1) is circular. If you can develop a computer which can emulate a
human being, then you have the possibility of human life in a computer.
This does not depend on (2) or I3), but neither does it take the
argument further.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LIFE AND REALITY
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(4)
If somebody manages to develop life in
a computer environment, which satisfies (3),
it follows from (2) that these life-forms
are just as much alive as you and I.
By definition - but still no advance.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(5)
Such an artificial organism must perceive a
reality (R2), which for itself is just as real
as our "real" reality (R1) is for us.
Might, not must. Perception comes a long way after life - it took us
around 4 billion years (depending where you start).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(6)
From (5) we conclude that (R1) and (R2) has the
same ontological status. Although (R2) in a material
way is embedded in (R1), (R2) is independent of (R1).
What do you mean by R2 being embedded in R1?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
REALITY AND PHYSICS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(7)
If (R1) and (R2) have the same ontological status
it might be possible to learn something about the
fundamental properties of realities in general, and
of (R1) in particular, by studying the details of
different (R2's). An example of such a property is
the physics of reality.
This seems a very long-winded way of improving our knowledge of physics.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--
ralph
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| User: "ralph" |
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| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
17 Mar 2006 05:00:45 PM |
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In message <1142624666.246139.88850@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
Joseph H <joseph@humanisation.org> writes
Ah, I see. Once again I begin a thread with a fairly ineresting
premise: that human beings use belief as a surrogate for knowledge. And
again the anoraks take over with a riveting discussion about Brownian
motion and the end of the Cartesian mind-body split.
Anorak? Moi?
Fascinating, I'm
sure- but not really addressing my central proposition which is that
belief has served its time and its purpose and that it's time we moved
onto knowledge as the source and the basis of our meaning.
Joseph, we all think that. That's why we're humanists.
--
ralph
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
18 Mar 2006 04:08:37 PM |
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ralph wrote:
In message <1142624666.246139.88850@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
Joseph H <joseph@humanisation.org> writes
Ah, I see. Once again I begin a thread with a fairly ineresting
premise: that human beings use belief as a surrogate for knowledge. And
again the anoraks take over with a riveting discussion about Brownian
motion and the end of the Cartesian mind-body split.
Anorak? Moi?
Fascinating, I'm
sure- but not really addressing my central proposition which is that
belief has served its time and its purpose and that it's time we moved
onto knowledge as the source and the basis of our meaning.
Joseph, we all think that. That's why we're humanists.
Oh, Jaysus, you guys bring me back to Catholicism again. At least there
isn't so much self-serving hypocrisy.
--
ralph
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
19 Mar 2006 05:29:10 AM |
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Apologies to all for scatology last night. Blame it on the rugby.
Come on, Ireland!
Joseph H
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| User: "ralph" |
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| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
19 Mar 2006 11:31:44 AM |
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In message <1142767750.037543.236710@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Joseph H <joseph@humanisation.org> writes
Apologies to all for scatology last night. Blame it on the rugby.
Come on, Ireland!
I'll forgive the postings, but have doubts about the excuse. You won,
Joseph! Were you too far gone to notice?
--
ralph
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
20 Mar 2006 12:28:15 PM |
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ralph wrote:
In message <1142767750.037543.236710@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Joseph H <joseph@humanisation.org> writes
Apologies to all for scatology last night. Blame it on the rugby.
Come on, Ireland!
I'll forgive the postings, but have doubts about the excuse. You won,
Joseph! Were you too far gone to notice?
Ah, ralph, for God's sake, get a life. Alcohol HEIGHTENS the
experience! Anyway, in reality i feel my scatological postings were
closer to the treuth than most. Too much *****-footing around this
place! Tell it like it is!
--
ralph
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| User: "FreeThink" |
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| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
02 Apr 2006 07:00:46 AM |
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Joseph H wrote:
Ah, I see. Once again I begin a thread with a fairly ineresting
premise: that human beings use belief as a surrogate for knowledge. And
again the anoraks take over with a riveting discussion about Brownian
motion and the end of the Cartesian mind-body split. Fascinating, I'm
sure- but not really addressing my central proposition which is that
belief has served its time and its purpose and that it's time we moved
onto knowledge as the source and the basis of our meaning.
But carry on, guys. Fight to the death, like rutting stags!
Should we stop believing in rationalism? Humanism? Is that too
analytical a question for someone who is not an anorak?
.
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
03 Apr 2006 03:31:16 PM |
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FreeThink wrote:
Joseph H wrote:
Ah, I see. Once again I begin a thread with a fairly ineresting
premise: that human beings use belief as a surrogate for knowledge. And
again the anoraks take over with a riveting discussion about Brownian
motion and the end of the Cartesian mind-body split. Fascinating, I'm
sure- but not really addressing my central proposition which is that
belief has served its time and its purpose and that it's time we moved
onto knowledge as the source and the basis of our meaning.
But carry on, guys. Fight to the death, like rutting stags!
Should we stop believing in rationalism? Humanism? Is that too
analytical a question for someone who is not an anorak?
Rationalism? What's that? The power of thought? The power of reason? I
really don't believe in any "ism". Isms simplify; they insist on faith;
they insist that a particular way of looking at the world is sufficient
to describe all the complexity of the world. Sure, we have a capacity
for reason. I happen to believe that we will eventually order our
public life in an intelligent fashion. When, and while, this occurs I
tend to feel that our private lives will continue to be highly
irrational. We will pursue avidly every bogus creed and every bogus
diet.
Humanism? Yeah, I believe that human beings will eventually order their
affairs in the manner suggested above.I believe that we will eventually
see that we are the only creatures on this planet - and possibly
elsewhere - with the capacity to understand the nature and the
chemistry of existence and with the capacity to take decisions based on
that understanding. I hope that this recognition will enrich our
perception of ourselves and of our place in nature and in so doing will
faciliate the implementation of the decisions we have to make. But to
call me a humanist because of that is too pat. It's a label from the
past. If anything, I'm a truthist.I am trying to find a way to make us
believe in and value the truth.
Thanks for the questions. Keep 'em coming!
Joseph H
www.humanisation.org
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| User: "FreeThink" |
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| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
06 Apr 2006 12:03:45 AM |
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Joseph H wrote:
FreeThink wrote:
Joseph H wrote:
Ah, I see. Once again I begin a thread with a fairly ineresting
premise: that human beings use belief as a surrogate for knowledge. And
again the anoraks take over with a riveting discussion about Brownian
motion and the end of the Cartesian mind-body split. Fascinating, I'm
sure- but not really addressing my central proposition which is that
belief has served its time and its purpose and that it's time we moved
onto knowledge as the source and the basis of our meaning.
But carry on, guys. Fight to the death, like rutting stags!
Should we stop believing in rationalism? Humanism? Is that too
analytical a question for someone who is not an anorak?
Rationalism? What's that? The power of thought? The power of reason? I
really don't believe in any "ism". Isms simplify; they insist on faith;
they insist that a particular way of looking at the world is sufficient
to describe all the complexity of the world. Sure, we have a capacity
for reason. I happen to believe that we will eventually order our
public life in an intelligent fashion. When, and while, this occurs I
tend to feel that our private lives will continue to be highly
irrational. We will pursue avidly every bogus creed and every bogus
diet.
Humanism? Yeah, I believe that human beings will eventually order their
affairs in the manner suggested above.I believe that we will eventually
see that we are the only creatures on this planet - and possibly
elsewhere - with the capacity to understand the nature and the
chemistry of existence and with the capacity to take decisions based on
that understanding. I hope that this recognition will enrich our
perception of ourselves and of our place in nature and in so doing will
faciliate the implementation of the decisions we have to make. But to
call me a humanist because of that is too pat. It's a label from the
past. If anything, I'm a truthist.I am trying to find a way to make us
believe in and value the truth.
Thanks for the questions. Keep 'em coming!
Joseph H
www.humanisation.org
Good luck with your truthism concept. Keep the faith brother!
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| User: "Joseph H" |
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| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
07 Apr 2006 11:32:47 AM |
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FreeThink wrote:
Joseph H wrote:
FreeThink wrote:
Joseph H wrote:
Ah, I see. Once again I begin a thread with a fairly ineresting
premise: that human beings use belief as a surrogate for knowledge. And
again the anoraks take over with a riveting discussion about Brownian
motion and the end of the Cartesian mind-body split. Fascinating, I'm
sure- but not really addressing my central proposition which is that
belief has served its time and its purpose and that it's time we moved
onto knowledge as the source and the basis of our meaning.
But carry on, guys. Fight to the death, like rutting stags!
Should we stop believing in rationalism? Humanism? Is that too
analytical a question for someone who is not an anorak?
Rationalism? What's that? The power of thought? The power of reason? I
really don't believe in any "ism". Isms simplify; they insist on faith;
they insist that a particular way of looking at the world is sufficient
to describe all the complexity of the world. Sure, we have a capacity
for reason. I happen to believe that we will eventually order our
public life in an intelligent fashion. When, and while, this occurs I
tend to feel that our private lives will continue to be highly
irrational. We will pursue avidly every bogus creed and every bogus
diet.
Humanism? Yeah, I believe that human beings will eventually order their
affairs in the manner suggested above.I believe that we will eventually
see that we are the only creatures on this planet - and possibly
elsewhere - with the capacity to understand the nature and the
chemistry of existence and with the capacity to take decisions based on
that understanding. I hope that this recognition will enrich our
perception of ourselves and of our place in nature and in so doing will
faciliate the implementation of the decisions we have to make. But to
call me a humanist because of that is too pat. It's a label from the
past. If anything, I'm a truthist.I am trying to find a way to make us
believe in and value the truth.
Thanks for the questions. Keep 'em coming!
Joseph H
www.humanisation.org
Good luck with your truthism concept. Keep the faith brother!
Thanks for reply. My "truthism" remark ws a joke, really - and yet it
contains a core of something. Posting in this thread I've discovered
that people seem genuinely at a loss to know what I'm at.
Incomprehension seems the order of the day. The philosophers'
inconclusive search for the nature of truth seems to turn people away
from any pursuit of truth itself. And yet, I am not concerned at all
with the "nature of truth". The very word truth is a human construct
seeking to encompass a vastly-more-than-human reality. Whether "truth"
is any way meaningful as a concept is of no interest to me. The fact
and nature and existence of existence - reality, so-called - is more in
my line. We can hardly doubt the existence of that - though some have
claimed to. Reality, so-called, has a provenance: matter has a form and
a construction; the universe has an origin and a pattern of
development; the earth has a history; likewise life; likewise what we
call human life. We have a genome; we have a particular form of brain;
we are susceptible to multiple influences. Also, we have a history. I
would descibe it as a history of colonisation of a planet - but many
fail, or refuse, to see this. The search foir further knowledge in all
these areas continues daily. We inherently accept the existence of
reality while barely allowing it to impinge upon our consciousness of
our existence as a species. My wish would be to see us learn to look at
our own history and nature and to form our views of ourselves based on
such a perspective - as opposed to the persepectives formed many years
ago when we knew far less.
Thanks again for giving me the occasion to say all this.
Joseph H.
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| User: "FishFood" |
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| Title: Re: TRUTH: A fig-leaf of the imagination? |
17 Mar 2006 09:47:48 PM |
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Joseph H wrote:
Ah, I see. Once again I begin a thread with a fairly ineresting
premise: that human beings use belief as a surrogate for knowledge. And
again the anoraks take over with a riveting discussion about Brownian
motion and the end of the Cartesian mind-body split. Fascinating, I'm
sure- but not really addressing my central proposition which is that
belief has served its time and its purpose and that it's time we moved
onto knowledge as the source and the basis of our meaning.
But carry on, guys. Fight to the death, like rutting stags!
Ye shall know them by their deeds...
This ploy of obstipation is old. The thread gets bunged up by
the old forms, so dragged out, that no one, now or in the future,
will bother with reading its content. It will just be too daunting.
I recall a text book example where the thread, "what is belief",
which set upon with much the same effect.
There again it could just be a combination of the cross-post and
your attractive title, which forces this obstruction on the ideas
we could be exploring.
Someone really ought to devise a new script for our illusionists.
ralph wrote:
In message <CCtSf.127535$4l5.75694@dukeread05>, Immortalist
<Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> writes
"Joseph H" <joseph@humanisation.org> wrote in message
news:1142535744.239403.100460@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Immortalist wrote:
"ralph" <ralph@eddlewood.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:AY2fG0BxBGGEFwai@eddlewood.demon.co.uk...
In message <y8PRf.126843$4l5.122843@dukeread05>, Immortalist
<Reanimater_2000@yahoo.com> writes
--Unbelieveable! How do you know so much?
--Read it, folks, and weep - and
--cheer - that one small head can know so much!
Thank you, but bookworms just know *****, good habit thats all. Nothing
special.
Well, I must first congratulate Joseph on coaxing out a coherent
response which I signally failed to achieve.
Do you think that the examples show a range of activities that would be
short and long of the brownian motion example and could be used to tighten
the definitions we are seeking?
Do these follow? I am always keen to know the subject of a discussion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
INFORMATION AND LIFE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(1)
A universal computer is indeed
universal and can emulate any process.
It is also, at least at present, no more than a hypothesis.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(2)
The essence of life is a process.
The essence of life is its ability to reproduce itself.
I must digress here to admit that I have not read "Autopoiesis and
Cognition". I was, however, at school with the late lamented Stafford
Beer, who wrote the preface to it. He told me that he had read it
several times, and still did not understand it. I took that as a hint.
Stafford was interested in the concept of the autopoietic society - that
is to say, humans as the smallest entities. You wrote:
They interact with the environment through a continual exchange of
energy and matter. But this interaction does not determine their
organization -- they are self organizing.
An autopoietic network is not a set of relations among static components
(like for example the pattern of organization of a crystal), but a set
of relations among processes of production of components. If these
processes stop, so does the entire organization. In other words,
autopoietic networks must continually regenerate themselves to maintain
their organization."
So far, so good. But you continue:
"In the emerging theory of living systems the process of life -- the
continual embodiment of an autopoietic pattern of organization in a
dissipative structure -- is identified with cognition, the process of
knowing. This implies a radically new concept of mind, which is perhaps
the most revolutionary and most exciting aspect of this theory, as it
promises finally to overcome the Cartesian division between mind and
matter."
Now, this was all a long time ago - I'm not sure how long? I have heard
no mention of it since: has their been any fulfillment of this promise?
"According to the theory of living systems, mind is not a thing but a
process -- the very process of life. In other words, the organizing
activity of living systems, at all levels of life, is mental activity.
The interactions of a living organism -- plant, animal, or human -o with
its environment are cognitive, or mental interactions. Thus life and
cognition become inseparably connected. Mind -- or, more accurately,
mental process -- is immanent in matter at all levels of life."
This is clearly the most contentious of your (or M&V's) assertions.
Cognition, and mental interactions, need something in which to take
place. We call this something "neurons", and | | | | | | | | |