| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"maff" |
| Date: |
05 Aug 2003 03:13:35 AM |
| Object: |
Truth About Lies: They Tell a Lot About a Liar |
Truth About Lies: They Tell a Lot About a Liar
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/05/health/psychology/05BEHA.html
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
Lying requires a theory of mind. To lie effectively, one has to have a
notion that other people have minds and can be deceived.
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| User: "Lucas Bachmann" |
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| Title: Re: Truth About Lies: They Tell a Lot About a Liar |
05 Aug 2003 06:40:32 PM |
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Nah, false input to get a desired output, lying, requires
nothing more a than a predictable response to
a stimulus.
Lucas Bachmann
maff wrote:
Truth About Lies: They Tell a Lot About a Liar
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/05/health/psychology/05BEHA.html
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
Lying requires a theory of mind. To lie effectively, one has to have a
notion that other people have minds and can be deceived.
.
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| User: "Stanley Friesen" |
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| Title: Re: Truth About Lies: They Tell a Lot About a Liar |
08 Aug 2003 09:08:01 AM |
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Martin Thomas <mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net> wrote:
On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:40:32 +0000 (UTC), Lucas Bachmann
<lucasbachmann@yahoo.com> wrote:
[I moved your word to the end, so the developing conversation
will be easier to follow]
maff wrote:
Truth About Lies: They Tell a Lot About a Liar
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/05/health/psychology/05BEHA.html
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
Lying requires a theory of mind. To lie effectively, one has to have a
notion that other people have minds and can be deceived.
Nah, false input to get a desired output, lying, requires
nothing more a than a predictable response to
a stimulus.
I partly agree with that. After all, animals can lie. Some
animals will feign injury to attract predators to follow them,
thereby drawing them away from its young. Humans often lie in a
similar way by playing helpless - or super confident. However
maff's comment might be true to some extent for humans. Most of
our lies probably do need a sophisticated model of what someone
else is thinking.
-
However conscious lying, as opposed to instinctive trickery, does seem
to be correlated with some sort of theory of mind. Very few animals are
capable of that sort of deliberate falsehood, mostly the great apes (and
perhaps some dolphins, but that has not yet been demonstrated).
There have been some interesting experiments on awareness of the mental
state of others in animals. Chimpanzees will fake each other out based
on an understanding of mental state.
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
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| User: "Bob Casanova" |
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| Title: Re: Truth About Lies: They Tell a Lot About a Liar |
09 Aug 2003 06:25:50 PM |
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On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 23:35:33 +0000 (UTC), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by Lucas Bachmann
<lucasbachmann@yahoo.com>:
<snip>
I'll agree that the liar needs a mind to be truly lying - but
that says nothing about that which is being lied to - which
is what the original article was saying, the thing being lied
to just needs to be predictable for a liar to pull off the lie.
One does not need to conclude they have minds, in fact the less
of a mind the better when it comes to being lied to I think.
You might want to consider the comments by James Randi in
_Flim-Flam_ (and probably elsewhere) regarding why it's
easier for a charlatan to dupe highly-educated scientists
than it is to dupe those familiar with sleight-of-hand
tricks. Quality of mind appears to be nearly irrelevant;
*much* more significant are expectations and experience
("predictability" in your first comment). I'd guess the same
applies to lies, liars and the "lied-to".
--
Bob C.
Reply to Bob-Casanova @ worldnet.att.net
(without the spaces, of course)
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov
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