On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 06:20:23 -0700, Pangur Ban
<PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
- Refer: <mn.e17c7d6c67d35a93.64065@worldnet.att.net>

Greywolf expressed precisely :

"Pangur Ban" <PangurBanTheist@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:mn.d9437d6cf1fe54f6.64065@worldnet.att.net...

Greywolf explained on 12/27/2006 :

"Uncle Clover" <UncleClover@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:hho3p25tsqi1hk85n1b59fvedj7ca4f0ev@4ax.com...

There are those who believe we should accept what we are told about some
subjects, deny what we're told about others and that any attempt to
clarify the
issue either way is the work of the Devil. They say that their ways are
true
and that your ways are false, and that to question them is to damn
yourself to
Hell. They speak of a light which only they can see - a light which
they can
-only- see when their eyes are most tightly closed shut. They tell us
that if
we would just close our eyes, we could see their truth and all would be
right
with the world.

Which brings up the question: What *exactly* are the 'faithful' seeing
when they close their eyes and pray? 'A supernatural looking 'Grandpa'
dressed in white and with a long white flowing beard?
And has anyone ever bothered to check if the 'image' of 'God' that every
single one of the faithful is seeing in their 'mind's eye' is *exactly*
the *same* image. If so, that would be utterly remarkable and worthy of
some serious discussion. If not, they're 'making-up' that image, aren't
they? (And they'll get together and come up with a similar 'likeness'
*now*, won't they?)

Personally, I neither close my eyes nor pray. When I do address the
Divine One, it is with eyes wide open and standing - and usually looking
at my beautiful mountains .. or the glorious desert sky or the spill of
the Milky Way across the night sky. I just like to look at natural
beauty while I chat at the DO.

When I close my eyes, I do see their truth - empty and black. When I
open my eyes and take a good look around, their truth disappears - only
to be
replaced by reality.

The 'image' the faithful see is whatever 'Godly' and 'Glorious' image
their imagination *lets* them see, isn't it? I'll bet they even 'picture'
the image talking to them. (But let them try asking that 'image' a
question that they couldn't possibly know the answer to, write down that
answer, check it for accuracy, and then have them explain why the given
answer was 'WRONG"!)

Why do they cling so desperately to the memories of ages gone by? How
full one's heart can be when filled with one's own self, for our egos
are boundless and unrestrained. But to mistake this sense of "fullness"
for a god -
that is denial of a most extreme sort.

You're darn tootin', it is!

No Earth-making god could be in Heaven
that wouldn't also be plainly visible "here" - even if he'd vacated the
premises
after performing the act of creation. His footprints and his
fingerprints, they
would be everywhere.

Oh, they *are* -- if you believe the likes of that the 'toe-jam' between
your stinky, dirty toes was lovingly created for you by deity!

His signature would be emblazoned across the sky and it
would be unmistakable even to the most ignorant of souls.

Not only that! His 'mug' would be splashed across the sky in 'high-def'
-- with 'surround-sound', to boot!

I understand why you assume so (I think); but I don't see egotism as
being a characteristic of the DO - but it is a characteristic of the men
who manipulated (and still do) for their own ends.

So why do they not wish for their world to be examined by anyone who
doesn't share their vision?

Ever hear the expression, 'Misery loves company'? So does 'Idiocy'!

Why do they seek to avoid all contact with sincere
analysis from those who don't already agree with them?

They've created their own little world. 'Realists' *not* Welcome!' says
the sign above the entrance to their 'play-world'.

Why must they confuse,
obfuscate and inveigle around each and every single nook and cranny just
to make
their proclaimed god _fit_ in this, an age most damned?

And even *then* he doesn't 'fit'!

If their god were real, it would be a plain and obvious thing in the
world.

If your a lyin', you're a dyin'!

They say that it is, but that could only be so if one's god is chaos,
for that's what we see in the universe around us no matter where we
look.

But it's *GOD* created 'chaos', don't you see. And ultimately the
universe we see to be so 'ordered' (and at the same time, 'chaotic')
will eventually no longer be recognizable to us as the universe we now
see.

Small
regions of order crop up here and there, but they aren't generally very
long-lived in the context of the entire history of the world as we know
it.
Even many things which appear to be ordered are actually only "less
chaotic than
other things" - from the spin of the Earth around the sun as it lurches
about,
sometimes sped up and sometimes slowed by the force of oceanic tides to
the
multitude of lifeforms which emerge into existence "mostly okay", but
not "perfect", chaos is in evidence in every nook and cranny.

But 'God' *designed* chaos to be ... uh ... 'chaotic', don't you see?!

But they will not look at it, they refuse to see it. In place of the
Earth's real orbit, they see a perfect circle - or at least a perfect
egg-shaped
path.

And don't forget ... as the Church once proclaimed upon penalty of death
... that the 'Sun' revolves around the 'Earth'. And it even 'stood still'
for a little while over ancient Caanan, don't you know?

In place of the aging process, sickness and disease, they see flawless
systems of biological divinity. In place of psychosis and mental
illness of all
sorts, they see a perfectly engineered thought-machine. They try to
make the
chaos go away by denying that it exists - and yet the chaos persists.

And just who are *you*, pray tell, to point out that 'God's'
imperfections are *divinely* imperfect and, therefore, *not*
imperfections?

What has truth to fear from an honest inspection?

Not a god-damn thing! Only those people who cling to brazen religious
lies are deathly afraid of it -- for the most part.

Naught, I say.
Naught. Analysis and examination - these are not enemies to truth, but
rather
facilitators of it. Those who shun them are not sincere - not that they
don't
sincerely believe what they claim to believe, but they aren't sincere in
their
desire to grasp the truth about the world around them.

Can I hear an 'Amen' to *that*?

They want to be lied to,

Not this theist.

they want to be "appeased".

HUH?

They probably haven't a single honest bone in the
entirety of their being.

My honesty is not in any particular bone - it is an integral part of me.

Well they may have one or two, but their brains are lying to them if they
actually believe the Jesus/God stuff to be true. 'God' should be treated
like the way we treat 'Santa Claus'. He's a terrifically warm and noble
imaginary creature. We can (and *do*) embrace him with little
reservation. He's a positively 'good' creature. (Unlike a certain
imaginary creature who shall remain nameless at this point in time.)

They say that to learn the truth, we must learn to see with our eyes
closed. But 'darkness' is not 'truth', willful 'blindness' is not
'seeking'.

And it looks goofy, too! Ever watch the audience of a TV Evangelist
program. Tell me they don't look absolutely silly standing there with
their eyes closed, swaying from side to side with outstretched arms above
them and mumbling who knows what to who knows whom! No supernatural
'voice' from nowhere answering em' back, is there?

Greywolf, I am shocked - shocked I tell you - to read that you are
watching TV Evangelists! Sheesh! I refuse to let them pollute my tv
screen for even a second! >:|

Open your eyes, you lot of bloody fools, before you take the whole world
to Hell with you.

Not a plausibility - there is no hell except what man himself creates.
:-)

:-|

If that comment weren't so damn bloody plausible and possible, I would be
chuckling to myself right now.

I'm not.

Greywolf

-- Pangur - expressing a few theist thoughts

Nothin' wrong with that. You go girl!
Greywolf

I go and go and go - I'll surely be glad to get somewhere some day!
:')

You'd be popular in Australia!!
"Does she go?" is an oft heard colloquial phrase amongst teen males
with a serious imbalance between their tact and their raging hormones.