| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"WCB" |
| Date: |
14 Sep 2005 05:37:24 AM |
| Object: |
Trutharians |
In another thread, The notions of truth came up, again
as it often does in discussions of religion.
As many here undoubtably know, I am a hard Atheist, and
I have posted ad nauseum my logical evidence that god
as a concept self destructs when you take a few basic,
foundational claims about god and examine them logically.
Hard Atheism is then, to me simply truth. Truth is,
religions make claims, theology makes claims. The truth is,
these claims self destruct.
Somebody elsewhere posted "My religion is Truth".
And so it is. I have seen this statement made over the years,
there was even briefly the "Church of Reality". "If its real, we
believe it".
There has been a running argument over the years as to the
place of Atheism in the intellectual world. It is limited in scope and
subject matter and does imply certain larger ideas. Some people
declare themselves, humanists or rationalists or free thinkers,
or philsophers above and beyond Atheism, whic mainly opposes
bad religious ideas that are a problem in the real world, often serious
problems.
But at the top is the matter of truth.
I am going to declare myself, only half facetiously, as a Trutharian.
Is its a religion, yes, the only religion worth having. Its not a
supernaturalistic nor theistic religion.
Truth is of course what is real, what is true. I note
long ago, we had only a few ways to try to achieve "truth".
Religion, natural or revealed. Failures all. Mysticism.
Failed. Occultims. Failed. Mathematics. Success but limited
subject. Philosophy. A mixed bag. Science. Quite successful.
Science is interesting because it is based from bottom up. Notice real
and actual phenomenon. Try to reason how it works as it does.
Gather information, created theories, test theories. if the theory
is true, if testing shows it is true as far as you can test things,
start the next round.
The same is true of Mathematics and the best of philosophy,
you test things and see if they are true.
What does not work is revelation, or dogmatic assertions
which one then applies deductive reasoning, failing
to look for disconfirmations. What does not work is
rationalization and bad logic. The heart of theology and
occultism and pseudoscience.
Atheism works because it notices theology does
not put forth claims that work, pass testing, are logical
or well though out. Atheism does use logic and does
not accept rationalizations.
As I have shown, strong Atheism can easily attack
theology's basic ideas of god rather easily.
Trutharianism simply means that those things that can
be tested for truth must be tested for truth and only those things
that pass the tests are worth consideration.
Trutharians are thus evolutionists because evolution passes
the test, creationism does not. Astrology does not.
Leninist-Marxism does not. Christianity and Islam do not.
Chemistry and quantum physics does. Relativity passes the
test, alchemy does not. Occultism does not, geology does.
Supernaturalism does not, cosmology does. Big bang does,
Noah's flood does not.
I am going to hoist the Trutharian flag, because its draws
the proper lines in the sand and is a great rhetorical clarification.
It also has for me a proper amount of smug arrogance.
We have the truth, you guys have error and stupid bronze age billy goat
herder myths. We have facts. You have contradictory bible verses
and easily debunked bad logic. We have truth, you have nonsense.
and its true.
I am a Hard Atheist, because as a Trutharian, I am driven to hard
Atheism by logical examination of a minimalistic subset of theist claims
which easily debunk god and all attached to that notion of god.
I am an evoltionist because evolution is based bottom up on facts
and as a theory passes the test. Decent with modification.
Truth is the only thing worth having. The only good.
Anything that blocks truth, bad logic, apologisms, refusal to think,
that is willful ignorance, refusal to accept obvious truths for what they
are, is evil.
At any rate, from here on out, I am a Trutharian and I reserve the
right to plant the Trutharian Victory Flag square in the prostrate bellies
of the defeated carcasses of theologists, occultists, myth thinkers and
pseudoscientists. And to be bloody jolly and and triumphalistic
about it.
Debunk them, denounce them, laugh at them.
--
"Today the official spokesman for the Foxes
agreed an investigation into what happened
to the henhouse may be needed."
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Misleart Chuff" |
|
| Title: Re: Trutharians |
14 Sep 2005 10:30:59 AM |
|
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"WCB" <wbarwell@Mungggedd.mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11ifugn146fen39@corp.supernews.com...
: In another thread, The notions of truth came up, again
: as it often does in discussions of religion.
:
: As many here undoubtably know, I am a hard Atheist, and
: I have posted ad nauseum my logical evidence that god
: as a concept self destructs when you take a few basic,
: foundational claims about god and examine them logically.
:
: Hard Atheism is then, to me simply truth. Truth is,
: religions make claims, theology makes claims. The truth is,
: these claims self destruct.
:
: Somebody elsewhere posted "My religion is Truth".
: And so it is. I have seen this statement made over the years,
: there was even briefly the "Church of Reality". "If its real, we
: believe it".
Nifty! I don't recall having heard of them before, but I wonder why
you refer to them in the past tense.
http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/
[snip]
I'm too tired to compose a proper post about the rest of this, but
briefly - you're right about truth, but I feel that your entire
"Trutharian" thing is superfluous. Who needs another label? Labels
obscure reality. I will use various labels to describe myself at
various times/places, if I feel that they will aid understanding.
Otherwise, I prefer to try to make clear statements, so that the
various connotations that labels have, since they are not always the
same between individuals, are avoided.
Ahh....almost lunchtime. Time to try to find something to eat amongst
the badly cooked, poorly planned selection here....they can't even
make simple things like hamburgers, or potato salad edible. These
"cooks" are mostly, if not all xians - is there a connection?
.
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| User: "WCB" |
|
| Title: Re: Trutharians |
14 Sep 2005 12:18:31 PM |
|
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Misleart Chuff wrote:
"WCB" <wbarwell@Mungggedd.mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11ifugn146fen39@corp.supernews.com...
: In another thread, The notions of truth came up, again
: as it often does in discussions of religion.
:
: As many here undoubtably know, I am a hard Atheist, and
: I have posted ad nauseum my logical evidence that god
: as a concept self destructs when you take a few basic,
: foundational claims about god and examine them logically.
:
: Hard Atheism is then, to me simply truth. Truth is,
: religions make claims, theology makes claims. The truth is,
: these claims self destruct.
:
: Somebody elsewhere posted "My religion is Truth".
: And so it is. I have seen this statement made over the years,
: there was even briefly the "Church of Reality". "If its real, we
: believe it".
Nifty! I don't recall having heard of them before, but I wonder why
you refer to them in the past tense.
http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/
[snip]
I'm too tired to compose a proper post about the rest of this, but
briefly - you're right about truth, but I feel that your entire
"Trutharian" thing is superfluous. Who needs another label?
As I said there is a certain amount of facetiouness to it all.
To a certain degree, Atheism is limited. What beyond Atheism?
humanism, rationalism, something else? At any rate, I am grabbing
Trutharian before some damned cult does. Or to be blunt, before
some OTHER cult does. One Scientology in the world is one too many.
Look out Invisible Pink Unicorn, Flying Spaghetti Monster and J. R. "Bob"
Dobbs.
Rationalism, and Freethinkers are by now seemingly tainted
with an air of old fashioned 19th village Atheist crankiness,
though I have long used Rationalist myself.
Another label, more like another toy. We have Truth, they have,
.... snigger ..... bronze age billy goat herder mythology. We have science.
They have ... creationism and flat earthers. We have quantum
physics. They have .... snake handling.
Trutharinism vs. organized billy goat herder ignorance.
I mean, what can you say?
Labels
obscure reality.
Depends on the label. SubGenius, Southern Baptist, Scientologist,
Rastafarian, UFO kook. Hey, looks like you are right.
I will use various labels to describe myself at
various times/places, if I feel that they will aid understanding.
Otherwise, I prefer to try to make clear statements, so that the
various connotations that labels have, since they are not always the
same between individuals, are avoided.
Ahh....almost lunchtime. Time to try to find something to eat amongst
the badly cooked, poorly planned selection here....they can't even
make simple things like hamburgers, or potato salad edible. These
"cooks" are mostly, if not all xians - is there a connection?
I hope you are not at a FEMA camp just outside New Orleans.
Or is this some campus fast food student center?
Yummy. Steam table hamburgers.
--
"Today the official spokesman for the Foxes
agreed an investigation into what happened
to the henhouse may be needed."
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Misleart Chuff" |
|
| Title: Re: Trutharians |
14 Sep 2005 01:18:55 PM |
|
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"WCB" <wbarwell@Mungggedd.mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:11igm0kb9j5q918@corp.supernews.com...
: Misleart Chuff wrote:
:
: > "WCB" <wbarwell@Mungggedd.mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
: > news:11ifugn146fen39@corp.supernews.com...
: > : In another thread, The notions of truth came up, again
: > : as it often does in discussions of religion.
: > :
: > : As many here undoubtably know, I am a hard Atheist, and
: > : I have posted ad nauseum my logical evidence that god
: > : as a concept self destructs when you take a few basic,
: > : foundational claims about god and examine them logically.
: > :
: > : Hard Atheism is then, to me simply truth. Truth is,
: > : religions make claims, theology makes claims. The truth is,
: > : these claims self destruct.
: > :
: > : Somebody elsewhere posted "My religion is Truth".
: > : And so it is. I have seen this statement made over the years,
: > : there was even briefly the "Church of Reality". "If its real, we
: > : believe it".
: >
: > Nifty! I don't recall having heard of them before, but I wonder
why
: > you refer to them in the past tense.
: > http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/
: >
: > [snip]
: >
: > I'm too tired to compose a proper post about the rest of this, but
: > briefly - you're right about truth, but I feel that your entire
: > "Trutharian" thing is superfluous. Who needs another label?
:
: As I said there is a certain amount of facetiouness to it all.
: To a certain degree, Atheism is limited. What beyond Atheism?
: humanism, rationalism, something else?
Atheism, limited? Lessee....it's a shallow pool, eh? WYSIWYG, even.
Amazing, isn't it, how a simple word like 'atheist' can stir ***** up?
But it's all so simple. Atheist = does not believe in gods. Yeah,
I'd say that's limited. But you're making it sound like a lifestyle,
or a creed, or something. Atheist still = no belief in gods...period.
Nothing more, nothing less.
While it is true that people who become atheists often have interest
in things like humanism, and rationalism (just how rational _is_
rationalism?), it's more like intersecting sets, rather than being
bound together in any meaningful way. Rather like the intersection
between transvestites & gays, ya know? One can be either, both, or
even neither. There appears to be some connection between them. See?
At any rate, I am grabbing
: Trutharian before some damned cult does. Or to be blunt, before
: some OTHER cult does. One Scientology in the world is one too many.
As far as I'm concerned, you're welcome to it..._I_ don't want it.
I've been working on correcting my perception of reality since the
'60s, but I never thought it needed labelling.
: Look out Invisible Pink Unicorn, Flying Spaghetti Monster and J. R.
"Bob"
: Dobbs.
What would the Trutharian equivalent be?
: Rationalism, and Freethinkers are by now seemingly tainted
: with an air of old fashioned 19th village Atheist crankiness,
: though I have long used Rationalist myself.
This seems a tad more insulting than necessary, somehow...but where
did the other 18 villages go? While I haven't found a reason to
bother to learn more about Rationalism, I've gathered enough from what
people have said in passing, to give it a miss. Hmmmm. Rationalism &
Freethinking in the same breath? Pah. Though the Freethinker label
means so many things, to so many people, that at this point, applying
it to one's self now, only invites questions about what you actually
mean by it.
: Another label, more like another toy. We have Truth, they have,
: ... snigger ..... bronze age billy goat herder mythology. We have
science.
: They have ... creationism and flat earthers. We have quantum
: physics. They have .... snake handling.
Hey! They've got Jerry Clower, too!!!
: Trutharinism vs. organized billy goat herder ignorance.
: I mean, what can you say?
*Look! It's in the trees!"
: > Labels
: > obscure reality.
:
: Depends on the label. SubGenius, Southern Baptist, Scientologist,
: Rastafarian, UFO kook. Hey, looks like you are right.
How could you think otherwise? I'm always right (except when I'm
ajar).
: > I will use various labels to describe myself at
: > various times/places, if I feel that they will aid understanding.
: > Otherwise, I prefer to try to make clear statements, so that the
: > various connotations that labels have, since they are not always
the
: > same between individuals, are avoided.
: >
: > Ahh....almost lunchtime. Time to try to find something to eat
amongst
: > the badly cooked, poorly planned selection here....they can't even
: > make simple things like hamburgers, or potato salad edible. These
: > "cooks" are mostly, if not all xians - is there a connection?
:
:
: I hope you are not at a FEMA camp just outside New Orleans.
: Or is this some campus fast food student center?
: Yummy. Steam table hamburgers.
I might actually enjoy FEMA camp food more. You nailed it on the
second try, more or less. It's a dorm cafeteria, but they're a
pretentious bunch of fuckwits running the place, so they haven't
allowed anyone to call it a cafeteria for many years. And of course,
what I ended up eating today was.................................wait
for it.........................steam table hamburgers! At least I
thought of a way to improve the edibility today. We have a nacho
cheese machine, and keep jalapeno & banana peppers to go with, so I
put some of those nice banana peppers (mild) on a burger...delightful!
The cole slaw must have been bought premade, 'cause it's _never_ as
good as it was today.
.
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