| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Kenny Leong" |
| Date: |
07 Apr 2004 03:19:12 PM |
| Object: |
try to get out of this one christians |
1) bible says at the beginning, only 'god' was around (thus the
product - humans etc - was obviously not around).
2) bible says that 'god' is all-knowing, and a perfect planner
(perfect planning? see exhibit A : refer to
http://www.bbie.org/english/Study07OriginofJesus/0703ChristinGodsPlan.html
)
3) 'god' all-knowingly knew that he/she/it would create a product (but
has not actually made it yet, because we're starting from 1) ...the
beginning.
4) since is already all-knowing and a perfect planner, then obviously
every god must have had already known (by perfect planning) EVERY
single MECHANICAL movement of the 'future' product.
5) refer to 3) again .. ie the product is not yet around
6) refer to 4) again .. ie ..god knew by perfect planning every single
mechanical movement of the product to be 'made'.
7) refer to 3)
8) refer to 4)
9) refer to 3)
10) refer to 4)
11) refer to 3) ...etc.
Most of us already know and understand the contradictions of being
all-knowing and perfect planning AND yet being able to make a product
that has free-will, such that the product's actions were not perfectly
planned in advance.
But if a christian debates with us... all we need to do is to get them
to work themselves out of the above accurate sequence.
It simply means that if you're all-knowing and perfect planning, then
there's no way that you can make a product with free will, because all
the things you do and choose are already known in advance...including
choosing every single mechanical movement for your future product. In
fact....all the future movements of the future product are actually
nothing more than that creator's own movements, because that creator
chose and planned everything when the product wasn't even around. Thus
the product's future movements are the creator's own movements.
Thus, if the product isn't responsible for anything, then obviously
judgement day is completely pointless and irrelevant.
Kenny L.
.
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| User: "Randy Story" |
|
| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
07 Apr 2004 04:26:34 PM |
|
|
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0404071219.271673b6@posting.google.com...
1) bible says at the beginning, only 'god' was around (thus the
product - humans etc - was obviously not around).
2) bible says that 'god' is all-knowing, and a perfect planner
(perfect planning? see exhibit A : refer to
http://www.bbie.org/english/Study07OriginofJesus/0703ChristinGodsPlan.html
)
3) 'god' all-knowingly knew that he/she/it would create a product (but
has not actually made it yet, because we're starting from 1) ...the
beginning.
4) since is already all-knowing and a perfect planner, then obviously
every god must have had already known (by perfect planning) EVERY
single MECHANICAL movement of the 'future' product.
5) refer to 3) again .. ie the product is not yet around
6) refer to 4) again .. ie ..god knew by perfect planning every single
mechanical movement of the product to be 'made'.
7) refer to 3)
8) refer to 4)
9) refer to 3)
10) refer to 4)
11) refer to 3) ...etc.
Most of us already know and understand the contradictions of being
all-knowing and perfect planning AND yet being able to make a product
that has free-will, such that the product's actions were not perfectly
planned in advance.
But if a christian debates with us... all we need to do is to get them
to work themselves out of the above accurate sequence.
It simply means that if you're all-knowing and perfect planning, then
there's no way that you can make a product with free will, because all
the things you do and choose are already known in advance...including
choosing every single mechanical movement for your future product. In
fact....all the future movements of the future product are actually
nothing more than that creator's own movements, because that creator
chose and planned everything when the product wasn't even around. Thus
the product's future movements are the creator's own movements.
Thus, if the product isn't responsible for anything, then obviously
judgement day is completely pointless and irrelevant.
Kenny L.
Are you still stuck on this simple issue, Kenny. The problem is your
usage of the term perfect planner. From a Christian perspective all this
entails is that he created everything perfectly and that his overall plan
will have perfect results. It does not mean that every creature will act in
accord with Gods moral will.
One of the perfect results is that all mankind will forever be allowed
their freedom as to their moral acts.
God being omnisceint knows perfectly what every creature will do with
the freewill that he allowed as part of that perfect plan. He does not
mechanicly cause every free action of the creature but he does know every
free action before he created anything. If he caused all actions we couldnt
be free.
Your problem continues to be a mechanistic view of causation.
Either an act is uncaused, caused by another or self caused. Remember we are
are not talking about causing our own existence but only our actions, as
self caused coming to exist is impossible.
.
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon The 15th" |
|
| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
07 Apr 2004 06:01:08 PM |
|
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"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in
news:1078sokhd2nub4e@corp.supernews.com:
<SNIP>
Hey Randy. I see you ran from that thread about science education that was
cross posted to talk.origins. The funniest thing was that the t.o Christian
regulars were the ones spanking you the most.
LK
.
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| User: "Randy Story" |
|
| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
08 Apr 2004 12:36:10 AM |
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"Llanzlan Klazmon The 15th" <Llanzlan@Llurdiaxorb.net> wrote in message
news:Xns94C570176B32DLlanzlanLlurdiaxorbn@203.97.37.6...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in
news:1078sokhd2nub4e@corp.supernews.com:
<SNIP>
Hey Randy. I see you ran from that thread about science education that was
cross posted to talk.origins. The funniest thing was that the t.o
Christian
regulars were the ones spanking you the most.
I never run, sometimes I just dont have the time.
.
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| User: "Steve" |
|
| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
07 Apr 2004 06:40:21 PM |
|
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"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1078sokhd2nub4e@corp.supernews.com...
:
: "Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
: news:29154d7c.0404071219.271673b6@posting.google.com...
: > 1) bible says at the beginning, only 'god' was around (thus the
: > product - humans etc - was obviously not around).
: >
: > 2) bible says that 'god' is all-knowing, and a perfect planner
: > (perfect planning? see exhibit A : refer to
: >
http://www.bbie.org/english/Study07OriginofJesus/0703ChristinGodsPlan.html
: > )
: >
: > 3) 'god' all-knowingly knew that he/she/it would create a product (but
: > has not actually made it yet, because we're starting from 1) ...the
: > beginning.
: >
: > 4) since is already all-knowing and a perfect planner, then obviously
: > every god must have had already known (by perfect planning) EVERY
: > single MECHANICAL movement of the 'future' product.
: >
: > 5) refer to 3) again .. ie the product is not yet around
: >
: > 6) refer to 4) again .. ie ..god knew by perfect planning every single
: > mechanical movement of the product to be 'made'.
: >
: > 7) refer to 3)
: >
: > 8) refer to 4)
: >
: > 9) refer to 3)
: >
: > 10) refer to 4)
: >
: > 11) refer to 3) ...etc.
: >
: > Most of us already know and understand the contradictions of being
: > all-knowing and perfect planning AND yet being able to make a product
: > that has free-will, such that the product's actions were not perfectly
: > planned in advance.
: >
: > But if a christian debates with us... all we need to do is to get them
: > to work themselves out of the above accurate sequence.
: >
: > It simply means that if you're all-knowing and perfect planning, then
: > there's no way that you can make a product with free will, because all
: > the things you do and choose are already known in advance...including
: > choosing every single mechanical movement for your future product. In
: > fact....all the future movements of the future product are actually
: > nothing more than that creator's own movements, because that creator
: > chose and planned everything when the product wasn't even around. Thus
: > the product's future movements are the creator's own movements.
: >
: > Thus, if the product isn't responsible for anything, then obviously
: > judgement day is completely pointless and irrelevant.
: >
: >
: > Kenny L.
:
:
: Are you still stuck on this simple issue, Kenny. The problem is your
: usage of the term perfect planner. From a Christian perspective all this
: entails is that he created everything perfectly and that his overall plan
: will have perfect results. It does not mean that every creature will act
in
: accord with Gods moral will.
So the creation isnt perfect then is it...
: One of the perfect results is that all mankind will forever be allowed
: their freedom as to their moral acts.
so immoral acts are part of the perfect creation....intertesting idea.
: God being omnisceint knows perfectly what every creature will do with
: the freewill that he allowed as part of that perfect plan. He does not
: mechanicly cause every free action of the creature but he does know every
: free action before he created anything. If he caused all actions we
couldnt
: be free.
so i wonder what the point of the whole exercise is ? ... your god knows the
outcome before the start..then gets ***** at the ones he *knew* wouldnt
follow his rules and lets em burn in hell forever. neat :-)
: Your problem continues to be a mechanistic view of causation.
If your mate knows everything forever mechanisitic is the right view...we
are only under the impression of freewill if this is the case
: Either an act is uncaused, caused by another or self caused. Remember we
are
: are not talking about causing our own existence but only our actions, as
: self caused coming to exist is impossible.
So what caused your god ??...
Im not sure if you have kids randy..but i have a daughter... if i treated my
daughter like your god is supposed to treat his *children* i would be in
gaol. Only one problem though... i couldnt treat my daughter this way
because i love her dearly..is she rejected me i would not condemn her to
suffer forever.. but your god seems okay with this...
steve
.
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| User: "Randy Story" |
|
| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
08 Apr 2004 12:30:47 AM |
|
|
"Steve" <dontbother@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40749009$1_5@127.0.0.1...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1078sokhd2nub4e@corp.supernews.com...
:
: "Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
: news:29154d7c.0404071219.271673b6@posting.google.com...
: > 1) bible says at the beginning, only 'god' was around (thus the
: > product - humans etc - was obviously not around).
: >
: > 2) bible says that 'god' is all-knowing, and a perfect planner
: > (perfect planning? see exhibit A : refer to
: >
http://www.bbie.org/english/Study07OriginofJesus/0703ChristinGodsPlan.html
: > )
: >
: > 3) 'god' all-knowingly knew that he/she/it would create a product (but
: > has not actually made it yet, because we're starting from 1) ...the
: > beginning.
: >
: > 4) since is already all-knowing and a perfect planner, then obviously
: > every god must have had already known (by perfect planning) EVERY
: > single MECHANICAL movement of the 'future' product.
: >
: > 5) refer to 3) again .. ie the product is not yet around
: >
: > 6) refer to 4) again .. ie ..god knew by perfect planning every single
: > mechanical movement of the product to be 'made'.
: >
: > 7) refer to 3)
: >
: > 8) refer to 4)
: >
: > 9) refer to 3)
: >
: > 10) refer to 4)
: >
: > 11) refer to 3) ...etc.
: >
: > Most of us already know and understand the contradictions of being
: > all-knowing and perfect planning AND yet being able to make a product
: > that has free-will, such that the product's actions were not perfectly
: > planned in advance.
: >
: > But if a christian debates with us... all we need to do is to get them
: > to work themselves out of the above accurate sequence.
: >
: > It simply means that if you're all-knowing and perfect planning, then
: > there's no way that you can make a product with free will, because all
: > the things you do and choose are already known in advance...including
: > choosing every single mechanical movement for your future product. In
: > fact....all the future movements of the future product are actually
: > nothing more than that creator's own movements, because that creator
: > chose and planned everything when the product wasn't even around. Thus
: > the product's future movements are the creator's own movements.
: >
: > Thus, if the product isn't responsible for anything, then obviously
: > judgement day is completely pointless and irrelevant.
: >
: >
: > Kenny L.
:
:
: Are you still stuck on this simple issue, Kenny. The problem is your
: usage of the term perfect planner. From a Christian perspective all this
: entails is that he created everything perfectly and that his overall
plan
: will have perfect results. It does not mean that every creature will
act
in
: accord with Gods moral will.
So the creation isnt perfect then is it..
You are asking two questions. Did God create everything perfectly, yes. Did
man screw things up with freewill, yes. One thing to keep in mind, it is not
posible to give a perfect gift such as freewill and it not be possible that
it might bbe used wrongly.
: One of the perfect results is that all mankind will forever be
allowed
: their freedom as to their moral acts.
so immoral acts are part of the perfect creation....intertesting idea.
A result of a perfect gift called freewill, yes.
: God being omnisceint knows perfectly what every creature will do
with
: the freewill that he allowed as part of that perfect plan. He does not
: mechanicly cause every free action of the creature but he does know
every
: free action before he created anything. If he caused all actions we
couldnt
: be free.
so i wonder what the point of the whole exercise is ? ... your god knows
the
outcome before the start..then gets ***** at the ones he *knew*
wouldnt
follow his rules and lets em burn in hell forever. neat :-)
The point of the exercise is for man. Either a man will choose the greatest
good which is God or he will reject the greatest good, this rejection will
be torment when he finally understand what he missed. It is not so much
different today. Two children can have the same loving parents, one will
respond and experience this love and the other will reject and reap the
aleination that he brings upon himself. The parents do not aleinate him, he
does. It is the same with God.
: Your problem continues to be a mechanistic view of causation.
If your mate knows everything forever mechanisitic is the right view...we
are only under the impression of freewill if this is the case
: Either an act is uncaused, caused by another or self caused. Remember we
are
: are not talking about causing our own existence but only our actions, as
: self caused coming to exist is impossible.
So what caused your god ??...
God is the uncaused pure reality that has always been.
Im not sure if you have kids randy..but i have a daughter... if i treated
my
daughter like your god is supposed to treat his *children* i would be in
gaol. Only one problem though... i couldnt treat my daughter this way
because i love her dearly..is she rejected me i would not condemn her to
suffer forever.. but your god seems okay with this...
God codemns no one, you condemn yourself.
.
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
08 Apr 2004 11:10:29 AM |
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One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach Randy Story:
The point of the exercise is for man. Either a man will choose the
greatest good which is God or he will reject the greatest good, this
rejection will be torment when he finally understand what he missed. It
is not so much different today. Two children can have the same loving
parents, one will respond and experience this love and the other will
reject and reap the aleination that he brings upon himself. The parents
do not aleinate him, he does. It is the same with God.
No, Randy. The point is survival of the fittest. It is the same with all
life, it always has been. It's the basis behind evolution, and the reason
we are here. Your version is a smoke screen, and it's a foul lie.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
______________
Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day.
Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.
--Timothy Jones
.
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| User: "Randy Story" |
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| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
08 Apr 2004 11:32:46 PM |
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"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:94C55A916vicman@127.0.0.1...
One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach Randy Story:
The point of the exercise is for man. Either a man will choose the
greatest good which is God or he will reject the greatest good, this
rejection will be torment when he finally understand what he missed. It
is not so much different today. Two children can have the same loving
parents, one will respond and experience this love and the other will
reject and reap the aleination that he brings upon himself. The parents
do not aleinate him, he does. It is the same with God.
No, Randy. The point is survival of the fittest. It is the same with all
life, it always has been. It's the basis behind evolution, and the reason
we are here. Your version is a smoke screen, and it's a foul lie.
No, just a pleasant truth that you can not disprove.
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
09 Apr 2004 09:58:20 AM |
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In article <107ca3qee7lj32c@corp.supernews.com>, Randy Story says...
"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:94C55A916vicman@127.0.0.1...
One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach Randy Story:
The point of the exercise is for man. Either a man will choose the
greatest good which is God or he will reject the greatest good, this
rejection will be torment when he finally understand what he missed. It
is not so much different today. Two children can have the same loving
parents, one will respond and experience this love and the other will
reject and reap the aleination that he brings upon himself. The parents
do not aleinate him, he does. It is the same with God.
No, Randy. The point is survival of the fittest. It is the same with all
life, it always has been. It's the basis behind evolution, and the reason
we are here. Your version is a smoke screen, and it's a foul lie.
No, just a pleasant truth that you can not disprove.
So what?
a) "Pleasant" is your subjective opinion; and
b) You can't prove it.
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
12 Apr 2004 03:53:49 PM |
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On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 14:58:20 GMT, Robibnikoff <nospam@newsranger.com>,
Message ID: <gSydc.942$H4.45@www.newsranger.com> wrote in alt.atheism;
In article <107ca3qee7lj32c@corp.supernews.com>, Randy Story says...
"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:94C55A916vicman@127.0.0.1...
One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach Randy Story:
The point of the exercise is for man. Either a man will choose the
greatest good which is God or he will reject the greatest good, this
rejection will be torment when he finally understand what he missed. It
is not so much different today. Two children can have the same loving
parents, one will respond and experience this love and the other will
reject and reap the aleination that he brings upon himself. The parents
do not aleinate him, he does. It is the same with God.
No, Randy. The point is survival of the fittest. It is the same with all
life, it always has been. It's the basis behind evolution, and the reason
we are here. Your version is a smoke screen, and it's a foul lie.
No, just a pleasant truth that you can not disprove.
So what?
a) "Pleasant" is your subjective opinion; and
b) You can't prove it.
All the lying sack of road kill can do is continue to demonstrate its
amorality.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
09 Apr 2004 03:25:43 PM |
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One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach Randy Story:
"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:94C55A916vicman@127.0.0.1...
One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach Randy Story:
The point of the exercise is for man. Either a man will choose the
greatest good which is God or he will reject the greatest good, this
rejection will be torment when he finally understand what he missed.
It is not so much different today. Two children can have the same
loving parents, one will respond and experience this love and the
other will reject and reap the aleination that he brings upon
himself. The parents do not aleinate him, he does. It is the same
with God.
No, Randy. The point is survival of the fittest. It is the same with
all life, it always has been. It's the basis behind evolution, and
the reason we are here. Your version is a smoke screen, and it's a
foul lie.
No, just a pleasant truth that you can not disprove.
It's a pleasant story, I'll admit. Ahhhhh. Eternal life. Unfortunately,
it has nothing to do with reality, because there is no evidence to support
it. I don't care to disprove it. Since it cannot be proven, there is no
need to.
I'm also well aware of the finality of death. I've faced it, and fear it
not. Knowing exactly what happens at death sure beats vainly scrambling to
gain the approval of a make-believe sky fairy for the rest of your life.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
______________
Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day.
Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.
--Timothy Jones
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
12 Apr 2004 03:57:21 PM |
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On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 15:25:43 -0500, (Vic
Sagerquist), Message ID: <94C686459vicman@127.0.0.1> wrote in
alt.atheism;
One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach Randy Story:
"Vic Sagerquist" < > wrote in message
news:94C55A916vicman@127.0.0.1...
One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach Randy Story:
The point of the exercise is for man. Either a man will choose the
greatest good which is God or he will reject the greatest good, this
rejection will be torment when he finally understand what he missed.
It is not so much different today. Two children can have the same
loving parents, one will respond and experience this love and the
other will reject and reap the aleination that he brings upon
himself. The parents do not aleinate him, he does. It is the same
with God.
No, Randy. The point is survival of the fittest. It is the same with
all life, it always has been. It's the basis behind evolution, and
the reason we are here. Your version is a smoke screen, and it's a
foul lie.
No, just a pleasant truth that you can not disprove.
Unsupported assertions collapse on their own, oh drooling idiot.
It's a pleasant story, I'll admit.
(chuckle) Is it?
Ahhhhh. Eternal life.
Think about that word 'eternal.'
Unfortunately,
it has nothing to do with reality, because there is no evidence to support
it. I don't care to disprove it. Since it cannot be proven, there is no
need to.
I'm also well aware of the finality of death. I've faced it, and fear it
not. Knowing exactly what happens at death sure beats vainly scrambling to
gain the approval of a make-believe sky fairy for the rest of your life.
Approval no christian will get-even working within their fantasy world.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "Marvin" |
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| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
07 Apr 2004 05:42:59 PM |
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"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1078sokhd2nub4e@corp.supernews.com...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0404071219.271673b6@posting.google.com...
1) bible says at the beginning, only 'god' was around
(thus the
product - humans etc - was obviously not around).
2) bible says that 'god' is all-knowing, and a perfect
planner
(perfect planning? see exhibit A : refer to
http://www.bbie.org/english/Study07OriginofJesus/0703ChristinGodsPlan.html
)
3) 'god' all-knowingly knew that he/she/it would create a
product (but
has not actually made it yet, because we're starting from
1) ...the
beginning.
4) since is already all-knowing and a perfect planner,
then obviously
every god must have had already known (by perfect
planning) EVERY
single MECHANICAL movement of the 'future' product.
5) refer to 3) again .. ie the product is not yet around
6) refer to 4) again .. ie ..god knew by perfect planning
every single
mechanical movement of the product to be 'made'.
7) refer to 3)
8) refer to 4)
9) refer to 3)
10) refer to 4)
11) refer to 3) ...etc.
Most of us already know and understand the contradictions
of being
all-knowing and perfect planning AND yet being able to
make a product
that has free-will, such that the product's actions were
not perfectly
planned in advance.
But if a christian debates with us... all we need to do is
to get them
to work themselves out of the above accurate sequence.
It simply means that if you're all-knowing and perfect
planning, then
there's no way that you can make a product with free will,
because all
the things you do and choose are already known in
advance...including
choosing every single mechanical movement for your future
product. In
fact....all the future movements of the future product are
actually
nothing more than that creator's own movements, because
that creator
chose and planned everything when the product wasn't even
around. Thus
the product's future movements are the creator's own
movements.
Thus, if the product isn't responsible for anything, then
obviously
judgement day is completely pointless and irrelevant.
Kenny L.
Are you still stuck on this simple issue, Kenny. The
problem is your
usage of the term perfect planner. From a Christian
perspective all this
entails is that he created everything perfectly and that his
overall plan
will have perfect results. It does not mean that every
creature will act in
accord with Gods moral will.
One of the perfect results is that all mankind will
forever be allowed
their freedom as to their moral acts.
God being omnisceint knows perfectly what every creature
will do with
the freewill that he allowed as part of that perfect plan.
He does not
mechanicly cause every free action of the creature but he
does know every
free action before he created anything. If he caused all
actions we couldnt
be free.
Your problem continues to be a mechanistic view of
causation.
Either an act is uncaused, caused by another or self caused.
Remember we are
are not talking about causing our own existence but only our
actions, as
self caused coming to exist is impossible.
A question: can you see the logical inconsistency in this
idea? A creator who made a being knowing how it would act
could, it seems reasonable, make some change so it would act
differently. If that is the case, how can it be said this
creator did not make the being *to* act as it did?
Another question: if there really is a God that meets all
your standards, but it gave its beings the ability to think,
why would it demand that they believe nonsense?
--
Marvin
To reply, burn off fog.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Randy Story" |
|
| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
08 Apr 2004 12:52:08 AM |
|
|
"Marvin" <marvin2@fogstarband.net> wrote in message
news:4r%cc.715$FB1.633@fe25.usenetserver.com...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1078sokhd2nub4e@corp.supernews.com...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0404071219.271673b6@posting.google.com...
1) bible says at the beginning, only 'god' was around
(thus the
product - humans etc - was obviously not around).
2) bible says that 'god' is all-knowing, and a perfect
planner
(perfect planning? see exhibit A : refer to
http://www.bbie.org/english/Study07OriginofJesus/0703ChristinGodsPlan.html
)
3) 'god' all-knowingly knew that he/she/it would create a
product (but
has not actually made it yet, because we're starting from
1) ...the
beginning.
4) since is already all-knowing and a perfect planner,
then obviously
every god must have had already known (by perfect
planning) EVERY
single MECHANICAL movement of the 'future' product.
5) refer to 3) again .. ie the product is not yet around
6) refer to 4) again .. ie ..god knew by perfect planning
every single
mechanical movement of the product to be 'made'.
7) refer to 3)
8) refer to 4)
9) refer to 3)
10) refer to 4)
11) refer to 3) ...etc.
Most of us already know and understand the contradictions
of being
all-knowing and perfect planning AND yet being able to
make a product
that has free-will, such that the product's actions were
not perfectly
planned in advance.
But if a christian debates with us... all we need to do is
to get them
to work themselves out of the above accurate sequence.
It simply means that if you're all-knowing and perfect
planning, then
there's no way that you can make a product with free will,
because all
the things you do and choose are already known in
advance...including
choosing every single mechanical movement for your future
product. In
fact....all the future movements of the future product are
actually
nothing more than that creator's own movements, because
that creator
chose and planned everything when the product wasn't even
around. Thus
the product's future movements are the creator's own
movements.
Thus, if the product isn't responsible for anything, then
obviously
judgement day is completely pointless and irrelevant.
Kenny L.
Are you still stuck on this simple issue, Kenny. The
problem is your
usage of the term perfect planner. From a Christian
perspective all this
entails is that he created everything perfectly and that his
overall plan
will have perfect results. It does not mean that every
creature will act in
accord with Gods moral will.
One of the perfect results is that all mankind will
forever be allowed
their freedom as to their moral acts.
God being omnisceint knows perfectly what every creature
will do with
the freewill that he allowed as part of that perfect plan.
He does not
mechanicly cause every free action of the creature but he
does know every
free action before he created anything. If he caused all
actions we couldnt
be free.
Your problem continues to be a mechanistic view of
causation.
Either an act is uncaused, caused by another or self caused.
Remember we are
are not talking about causing our own existence but only our
actions, as
self caused coming to exist is impossible.
A question: can you see the logical inconsistency in this
idea? A creator who made a being knowing how it would act
could, it seems reasonable, make some change so it would act
differently. If that is the case, how can it be said this
creator did not make the being *to* act as it did?
Because Gods knowledge does not cause any of our acts, he just know them
because he is not in time.
Another question: if there really is a God that meets all
your standards, but it gave its beings the ability to think,
why would it demand that they believe nonsense?
The problem is your knowledge is not up to par. Try this, prove to me that
freewill and omnisceince is contradictory and not just because it appears so
to you.
I am free and God knows perfectly what I will do with my freedom. It is only
because you make God into a time bound creature that you have issues with
this statement.
Marvin
To reply, burn off fog.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Marvin" |
|
| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
08 Apr 2004 09:19:57 AM |
|
|
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1079qcj28ktqic0@corp.supernews.com...
"Marvin" <marvin2@fogstarband.net> wrote in message
news:4r%cc.715$FB1.633@fe25.usenetserver.com...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1078sokhd2nub4e@corp.supernews.com...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in
message
[snip]
Are you still stuck on this simple issue, Kenny. The
problem is your
usage of the term perfect planner. From a Christian
perspective all this
entails is that he created everything perfectly and that
his
overall plan
will have perfect results. It does not mean that every
creature will act in
accord with Gods moral will.
One of the perfect results is that all mankind will
forever be allowed
their freedom as to their moral acts.
God being omnisceint knows perfectly what every
creature
will do with
the freewill that he allowed as part of that perfect
plan.
He does not
mechanicly cause every free action of the creature but
he
does know every
free action before he created anything. If he caused all
actions we couldnt
be free.
Your problem continues to be a mechanistic view of
causation.
Either an act is uncaused, caused by another or self
caused.
Remember we are
are not talking about causing our own existence but only
our
actions, as
self caused coming to exist is impossible.
A question: can you see the logical inconsistency in this
idea? A creator who made a being knowing how it would act
could, it seems reasonable, make some change so it would
act
differently. If that is the case, how can it be said this
creator did not make the being *to* act as it did?
Because Gods knowledge does not cause any of our acts, he
just know them
because he is not in time.
Another question: if there really is a God that meets all
your standards, but it gave its beings the ability to
think,
why would it demand that they believe nonsense?
The problem is your knowledge is not up to par. Try this,
prove to me that
freewill and omnisceince is contradictory and not just
because it appears so
to you.
I am free and God knows perfectly what I will do with my
freedom. It is only
because you make God into a time bound creature that you
have issues with
this statement.
Okay, the answer to both my questions is a variation on the
usual "God moves in mysterious ways . . ." or "the wisdom of
man is like the foolishness of God," etc. I knew that, of
course. And you've thrown in the "you can't prove it's not"
argument to round it out. Is that a fair summation? Are you
satisfied with that position?
I accept the fact that faith requires you to reject reason,
but I can no longer do it, if I ever truly did. I strongly
support your right to believe, but I have to admit that I am
repeatedly surprised by the professions of illogical faith I
hear from otherwise intelligent people. I have no way of
knowing whether I would consider you an intelligent person if
I knew you. What you write here doesn't sound like the
musings of someone who carefully considers ideas, so it's
possible you are as untroubled by your positions as you seem
to be.
All that said, I have to remind myself that I too consciously
refused to accept logic and prayed diligently to have my
doubts removed until roughly a quarter century ago. I would
have denied doubting in a forum of this type, I'm sure, so I
have a degree of empathy for your position.
--
Marvin
To reply, burn off fog.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Randy Story" |
|
| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
08 Apr 2004 11:21:15 PM |
|
|
"Marvin" <marvin2@fogstarband.net> wrote in message
news:Caddc.783$FB1.683@fe25.usenetserver.com...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1079qcj28ktqic0@corp.supernews.com...
"Marvin" <marvin2@fogstarband.net> wrote in message
news:4r%cc.715$FB1.633@fe25.usenetserver.com...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1078sokhd2nub4e@corp.supernews.com...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in
message
[snip]
Are you still stuck on this simple issue, Kenny. The
problem is your
usage of the term perfect planner. From a Christian
perspective all this
entails is that he created everything perfectly and that
his
overall plan
will have perfect results. It does not mean that every
creature will act in
accord with Gods moral will.
One of the perfect results is that all mankind will
forever be allowed
their freedom as to their moral acts.
God being omnisceint knows perfectly what every
creature
will do with
the freewill that he allowed as part of that perfect
plan.
He does not
mechanicly cause every free action of the creature but
he
does know every
free action before he created anything. If he caused all
actions we couldnt
be free.
Your problem continues to be a mechanistic view of
causation.
Either an act is uncaused, caused by another or self
caused.
Remember we are
are not talking about causing our own existence but only
our
actions, as
self caused coming to exist is impossible.
A question: can you see the logical inconsistency in this
idea? A creator who made a being knowing how it would act
could, it seems reasonable, make some change so it would
act
differently. If that is the case, how can it be said this
creator did not make the being *to* act as it did?
Because Gods knowledge does not cause any of our acts, he
just know them
because he is not in time.
Another question: if there really is a God that meets all
your standards, but it gave its beings the ability to
think,
why would it demand that they believe nonsense?
The problem is your knowledge is not up to par. Try this,
prove to me that
freewill and omnisceince is contradictory and not just
because it appears so
to you.
I am free and God knows perfectly what I will do with my
freedom. It is only
because you make God into a time bound creature that you
have issues with
this statement.
Okay, the answer to both my questions is a variation on the
usual "God moves in mysterious ways . . ." or "the wisdom of
man is like the foolishness of God," etc. I knew that, of
course. And you've thrown in the "you can't prove it's not"
argument to round it out. Is that a fair summation? Are you
satisfied with that position?
I accept the fact that faith requires you to reject reason,
but I can no longer do it, if I ever truly did. I strongly
support your right to believe, but I have to admit that I am
repeatedly surprised by the professions of illogical faith I
hear from otherwise intelligent people. I have no way of
knowing whether I would consider you an intelligent person if
I knew you. What you write here doesn't sound like the
musings of someone who carefully considers ideas, so it's
possible you are as untroubled by your positions as you seem
to be.
All that said, I have to remind myself that I too consciously
refused to accept logic and prayed diligently to have my
doubts removed until roughly a quarter century ago. I would
have denied doubting in a forum of this type, I'm sure, so I
have a degree of empathy for your position.
--
Marvin
To reply, burn off fog.
It is quite reasonable to assume that before time began there was eternity.
Even sceintists who propose the big bang say that time itself has no meaning
in the original singlelarity.
Ifr time came into existence with the universe then to say that God is
outside time is no scretch, in fact it is the only reasonable answer. Since
he is not in time he can see all of time in a single eternal view. Therfore
I can be free and God know exactly what I will do with my freedom.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
07 Apr 2004 06:14:09 PM |
|
|
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1078sokhd2nub4e@corp.supernews.com...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0404071219.271673b6@posting.google.com...
1) bible says at the beginning, only 'god' was around (thus the
product - humans etc - was obviously not around).
2) bible says that 'god' is all-knowing, and a perfect planner
(perfect planning? see exhibit A : refer to
http://www.bbie.org/english/Study07OriginofJesus/0703ChristinGodsPlan.html
)
3) 'god' all-knowingly knew that he/she/it would create a product (but
has not actually made it yet, because we're starting from 1) ...the
beginning.
4) since is already all-knowing and a perfect planner, then obviously
every god must have had already known (by perfect planning) EVERY
single MECHANICAL movement of the 'future' product.
5) refer to 3) again .. ie the product is not yet around
6) refer to 4) again .. ie ..god knew by perfect planning every single
mechanical movement of the product to be 'made'.
7) refer to 3)
8) refer to 4)
9) refer to 3)
10) refer to 4)
11) refer to 3) ...etc.
Most of us already know and understand the contradictions of being
all-knowing and perfect planning AND yet being able to make a product
that has free-will, such that the product's actions were not perfectly
planned in advance.
But if a christian debates with us... all we need to do is to get them
to work themselves out of the above accurate sequence.
It simply means that if you're all-knowing and perfect planning, then
there's no way that you can make a product with free will, because all
the things you do and choose are already known in advance...including
choosing every single mechanical movement for your future product. In
fact....all the future movements of the future product are actually
nothing more than that creator's own movements, because that creator
chose and planned everything when the product wasn't even around. Thus
the product's future movements are the creator's own movements.
Thus, if the product isn't responsible for anything, then obviously
judgement day is completely pointless and irrelevant.
Kenny L.
Are you still stuck on this simple issue, Kenny. The problem is your
usage of the term perfect planner. From a Christian perspective all this
entails is that he created everything perfectly and that his overall plan
will have perfect results. It does not mean that every creature will act
in
accord with Gods moral will.
One of the perfect results is that all mankind will forever be allowed
their freedom as to their moral acts.
God being omnisceint knows perfectly what every creature will do with
the freewill that he allowed as part of that perfect plan. He does not
mechanicly cause every free action of the creature but he does know every
free action before he created anything. If he caused all actions we
couldnt
be free.
Your problem continues to be a mechanistic view of causation.
Either an act is uncaused, caused by another or self caused. Remember we
are
are not talking about causing our own existence but only our actions, as
self caused coming to exist is impossible.
Randy, me making a machine knowing what it will do is EXACTLY like your god
making a human knowing what it will do. There is NO difference. The results
are EXACTLY the same.
Now, I can CLAIM my machine has free will, but does that absolve me from
being responsible for what it does?
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "Randy Story" |
|
| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
08 Apr 2004 12:35:26 AM |
|
|
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:j_udnfjpCs0dFundRVn-jw@io.com...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1078sokhd2nub4e@corp.supernews.com...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0404071219.271673b6@posting.google.com...
1) bible says at the beginning, only 'god' was around (thus the
product - humans etc - was obviously not around).
2) bible says that 'god' is all-knowing, and a perfect planner
(perfect planning? see exhibit A : refer to
http://www.bbie.org/english/Study07OriginofJesus/0703ChristinGodsPlan.html
)
3) 'god' all-knowingly knew that he/she/it would create a product (but
has not actually made it yet, because we're starting from 1) ...the
beginning.
4) since is already all-knowing and a perfect planner, then obviously
every god must have had already known (by perfect planning) EVERY
single MECHANICAL movement of the 'future' product.
5) refer to 3) again .. ie the product is not yet around
6) refer to 4) again .. ie ..god knew by perfect planning every single
mechanical movement of the product to be 'made'.
7) refer to 3)
8) refer to 4)
9) refer to 3)
10) refer to 4)
11) refer to 3) ...etc.
Most of us already know and understand the contradictions of being
all-knowing and perfect planning AND yet being able to make a product
that has free-will, such that the product's actions were not perfectly
planned in advance.
But if a christian debates with us... all we need to do is to get them
to work themselves out of the above accurate sequence.
It simply means that if you're all-knowing and perfect planning, then
there's no way that you can make a product with free will, because all
the things you do and choose are already known in advance...including
choosing every single mechanical movement for your future product. In
fact....all the future movements of the future product are actually
nothing more than that creator's own movements, because that creator
chose and planned everything when the product wasn't even around. Thus
the product's future movements are the creator's own movements.
Thus, if the product isn't responsible for anything, then obviously
judgement day is completely pointless and irrelevant.
Kenny L.
Are you still stuck on this simple issue, Kenny. The problem is your
usage of the term perfect planner. From a Christian perspective all this
entails is that he created everything perfectly and that his overall
plan
will have perfect results. It does not mean that every creature will
act
in
accord with Gods moral will.
One of the perfect results is that all mankind will forever be
allowed
their freedom as to their moral acts.
God being omnisceint knows perfectly what every creature will do
with
the freewill that he allowed as part of that perfect plan. He does not
mechanicly cause every free action of the creature but he does know
every
free action before he created anything. If he caused all actions we
couldnt
be free.
Your problem continues to be a mechanistic view of causation.
Either an act is uncaused, caused by another or self caused. Remember we
are
are not talking about causing our own existence but only our actions, as
self caused coming to exist is impossible.
Randy, me making a machine knowing what it will do is EXACTLY like your
god
making a human knowing what it will do. There is NO difference. The
results
are EXACTLY the same.
But thats exactly the point, you cant know perfectly what the machine will
do because you are timebound and in process just as the machine is. You cant
know if it might breakdown and when.
God does not have this limitation because he is outside time. When he
created the universe and things began to change, time began because time is
just the measurement of change.
God knows all of time from eternity.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
08 Apr 2004 06:12:57 PM |
|
|
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1079pd9d6vi200d@corp.supernews.com...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:j_udnfjpCs0dFundRVn-jw@io.com...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1078sokhd2nub4e@corp.supernews.com...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0404071219.271673b6@posting.google.com...
1) bible says at the beginning, only 'god' was around (thus the
product - humans etc - was obviously not around).
2) bible says that 'god' is all-knowing, and a perfect planner
(perfect planning? see exhibit A : refer to
http://www.bbie.org/english/Study07OriginofJesus/0703ChristinGodsPlan.html
)
3) 'god' all-knowingly knew that he/she/it would create a product
(but
has not actually made it yet, because we're starting from 1) ...the
beginning.
4) since is already all-knowing and a perfect planner, then
obviously
every god must have had already known (by perfect planning) EVERY
single MECHANICAL movement of the 'future' product.
5) refer to 3) again .. ie the product is not yet around
6) refer to 4) again .. ie ..god knew by perfect planning every
single
mechanical movement of the product to be 'made'.
7) refer to 3)
8) refer to 4)
9) refer to 3)
10) refer to 4)
11) refer to 3) ...etc.
Most of us already know and understand the contradictions of being
all-knowing and perfect planning AND yet being able to make a
product
that has free-will, such that the product's actions were not
perfectly
planned in advance.
But if a christian debates with us... all we need to do is to get
them
to work themselves out of the above accurate sequence.
It simply means that if you're all-knowing and perfect planning,
then
there's no way that you can make a product with free will, because
all
the things you do and choose are already known in
advance...including
choosing every single mechanical movement for your future product.
In
fact....all the future movements of the future product are actually
nothing more than that creator's own movements, because that creator
chose and planned everything when the product wasn't even around.
Thus
the product's future movements are the creator's own movements.
Thus, if the product isn't responsible for anything, then obviously
judgement day is completely pointless and irrelevant.
Kenny L.
Are you still stuck on this simple issue, Kenny. The problem is
your
usage of the term perfect planner. From a Christian perspective all
this
entails is that he created everything perfectly and that his overall
plan
will have perfect results. It does not mean that every creature will
act
in
accord with Gods moral will.
One of the perfect results is that all mankind will forever be
allowed
their freedom as to their moral acts.
God being omnisceint knows perfectly what every creature will do
with
the freewill that he allowed as part of that perfect plan. He does
not
mechanicly cause every free action of the creature but he does know
every
free action before he created anything. If he caused all actions we
couldnt
be free.
Your problem continues to be a mechanistic view of causation.
Either an act is uncaused, caused by another or self caused. Remember
we
are
are not talking about causing our own existence but only our actions,
as
self caused coming to exist is impossible.
Randy, me making a machine knowing what it will do is EXACTLY like your
god
making a human knowing what it will do. There is NO difference. The
results
are EXACTLY the same.
But thats exactly the point, you cant know perfectly what the machine will
do because you are timebound and in process just as the machine is. You
cant
know if it might breakdown and when.
God does not have this limitation because he is outside time.
BOGGLE! Ok, I stand corrected. The humans the supposed god creates have even
LESS free will than the machine I make that could go haywire.
The god-created humans have NO free will whatsoever, they can't help but
function EXACTLY as intended.
When he
created the universe and things began to change, time began because time
is
just the measurement of change.
God knows all of time from eternity.
Such a god would have created the future, leaving us no say in it at all.
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "Randy Story" |
|
| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
08 Apr 2004 11:31:23 PM |
|
|
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:r4adna-1RJUqQejdRVn-sw@io.com...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1079pd9d6vi200d@corp.supernews.com...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:j_udnfjpCs0dFundRVn-jw@io.com...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1078sokhd2nub4e@corp.supernews.com...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0404071219.271673b6@posting.google.com...
1) bible says at the beginning, only 'god' was around (thus the
product - humans etc - was obviously not around).
2) bible says that 'god' is all-knowing, and a perfect planner
(perfect planning? see exhibit A : refer to
http://www.bbie.org/english/Study07OriginofJesus/0703ChristinGodsPlan.html
)
3) 'god' all-knowingly knew that he/she/it would create a product
(but
has not actually made it yet, because we're starting from 1)
....the
beginning.
4) since is already all-knowing and a perfect planner, then
obviously
every god must have had already known (by perfect planning) EVERY
single MECHANICAL movement of the 'future' product.
5) refer to 3) again .. ie the product is not yet around
6) refer to 4) again .. ie ..god knew by perfect planning every
single
mechanical movement of the product to be 'made'.
7) refer to 3)
8) refer to 4)
9) refer to 3)
10) refer to 4)
11) refer to 3) ...etc.
Most of us already know and understand the contradictions of being
all-knowing and perfect planning AND yet being able to make a
product
that has free-will, such that the product's actions were not
perfectly
planned in advance.
But if a christian debates with us... all we need to do is to get
them
to work themselves out of the above accurate sequence.
It simply means that if you're all-knowing and perfect planning,
then
there's no way that you can make a product with free will, because
all
the things you do and choose are already known in
advance...including
choosing every single mechanical movement for your future product.
In
fact....all the future movements of the future product are
actually
nothing more than that creator's own movements, because that
creator
chose and planned everything when the product wasn't even around.
Thus
the product's future movements are the creator's own movements.
Thus, if the product isn't responsible for anything, then
obviously
judgement day is completely pointless and irrelevant.
Kenny L.
Are you still stuck on this simple issue, Kenny. The problem is
your
usage of the term perfect planner. From a Christian perspective all
this
entails is that he created everything perfectly and that his overall
plan
will have perfect results. It does not mean that every creature
will
act
in
accord with Gods moral will.
One of the perfect results is that all mankind will forever be
allowed
their freedom as to their moral acts.
God being omnisceint knows perfectly what every creature will do
with
the freewill that he allowed as part of that perfect plan. He does
not
mechanicly cause every free action of the creature but he does know
every
free action before he created anything. If he caused all actions we
couldnt
be free.
Your problem continues to be a mechanistic view of causation.
Either an act is uncaused, caused by another or self caused.
Remember
we
are
are not talking about causing our own existence but only our
actions,
as
self caused coming to exist is impossible.
Randy, me making a machine knowing what it will do is EXACTLY like
your
god
making a human knowing what it will do. There is NO difference. The
results
are EXACTLY the same.
But thats exactly the point, you cant know perfectly what the machine
will
do because you are timebound and in process just as the machine is. You
cant
know if it might breakdown and when.
God does not have this limitation because he is outside time.
BOGGLE! Ok, I stand corrected. The humans the supposed god creates have
even
LESS free will than the machine I make that could go haywire.
The god-created humans have NO free will whatsoever, they can't help but
function EXACTLY as intended.
When he
created the universe and things began to change, time began because time
is
just the measurement of change.
God knows all of time from eternity.
Such a god would have created the future, leaving us no say in it at all.
Sorry, you are completely free and yet he knows exactly how you will use
your freedom. You are confined to freedom in time, he is outside looking in.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
09 Apr 2004 01:38:50 AM |
|
|
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:107ca178r5m2i90@corp.supernews.com...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:r4adna-1RJUqQejdRVn-sw@io.com...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1079pd9d6vi200d@corp.supernews.com...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:j_udnfjpCs0dFundRVn-jw@io.com...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1078sokhd2nub4e@corp.supernews.com...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0404071219.271673b6@posting.google.com...
1) bible says at the beginning, only 'god' was around (thus the
product - humans etc - was obviously not around).
2) bible says that 'god' is all-knowing, and a perfect planner
(perfect planning? see exhibit A : refer to
http://www.bbie.org/english/Study07OriginofJesus/0703ChristinGodsPlan.html
)
3) 'god' all-knowingly knew that he/she/it would create a
product
(but
has not actually made it yet, because we're starting from 1)
...the
beginning.
4) since is already all-knowing and a perfect planner, then
obviously
every god must have had already known (by perfect planning)
EVERY
single MECHANICAL movement of the 'future' product.
5) refer to 3) again .. ie the product is not yet around
6) refer to 4) again .. ie ..god knew by perfect planning every
single
mechanical movement of the product to be 'made'.
7) refer to 3)
8) refer to 4)
9) refer to 3)
10) refer to 4)
11) refer to 3) ...etc.
Most of us already know and understand the contradictions of
being
all-knowing and perfect planning AND yet being able to make a
product
that has free-will, such that the product's actions were not
perfectly
planned in advance.
But if a christian debates with us... all we need to do is to
get
them
to work themselves out of the above accurate sequence.
It simply means that if you're all-knowing and perfect planning,
then
there's no way that you can make a product with free will,
because
all
the things you do and choose are already known in
advance...including
choosing every single mechanical movement for your future
product.
In
fact....all the future movements of the future product are
actually
nothing more than that creator's own movements, because that
creator
chose and planned everything when the product wasn't even
around.
Thus
the product's future movements are the creator's own movements.
Thus, if the product isn't responsible for anything, then
obviously
judgement day is completely pointless and irrelevant.
Kenny L.
Are you still stuck on this simple issue, Kenny. The problem
is
your
usage of the term perfect planner. From a Christian perspective
all
this
entails is that he created everything perfectly and that his
overall
plan
will have perfect results. It does not mean that every creature
will
act
in
accord with Gods moral will.
One of the perfect results is that all mankind will forever be
allowed
their freedom as to their moral acts.
God being omnisceint knows perfectly what every creature will
do
with
the freewill that he allowed as part of that perfect plan. He
does
not
mechanicly cause every free action of the creature but he does
know
every
free action before he created anything. If he caused all actions
we
couldnt
be free.
Your problem continues to be a mechanistic view of causation.
Either an act is uncaused, caused by another or self caused.
Remember
we
are
are not talking about causing our own existence but only our
actions,
as
self caused coming to exist is impossible.
Randy, me making a machine knowing what it will do is EXACTLY like
your
god
making a human knowing what it will do. There is NO difference. The
results
are EXACTLY the same.
But thats exactly the point, you cant know perfectly what the machine
will
do because you are timebound and in process just as the machine is.
You
cant
know if it might breakdown and when.
God does not have this limitation because he is outside time.
BOGGLE! Ok, I stand corrected. The humans the supposed god creates have
even
LESS free will than the machine I make that could go haywire.
The god-created humans have NO free will whatsoever, they can't help but
function EXACTLY as intended.
When he
created the universe and things began to change, time began because
time
is
just the measurement of change.
God knows all of time from eternity.
Such a god would have created the future, leaving us no say in it at
all.
Sorry, you are completely free and yet he knows exactly how you will use
your freedom. You are confined to freedom in time, he is outside looking
in.
You're completely missing the point, the god supposedly CREATED me knowing
what I would do. That's the exact equivalent of me building a machine that
functions exactly as I intended. In the god's eyes, that's what we are. We
are the god's robots.
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kenny Leong" |
|
| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
09 Apr 2004 10:15:08 AM |
|
|
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message news:<ycSdnQ2KbYth2evdRVn-gQ@io.com>...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:107ca178r5m2i90@corp.supernews.com...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:r4adna-1RJUqQejdRVn-sw@io.com...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1079pd9d6vi200d@corp.supernews.com...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:j_udnfjpCs0dFundRVn-jw@io.com...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1078sokhd2nub4e@corp.supernews.com...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0404071219.271673b6@posting.google.com...
1) bible says at the beginning, only 'god' was around (thus the
product - humans etc - was obviously not around).
2) bible says that 'god' is all-knowing, and a perfect planner
(perfect planning? see exhibit A : refer to
http://www.bbie.org/english/Study07OriginofJesus/0703ChristinGodsPlan.html
)
3) 'god' all-knowingly knew that he/she/it would create a
product
(but
has not actually made it yet, because we're starting from 1)
...the
beginning.
4) since is already all-knowing and a perfect planner, then
obviously
every god must have had already known (by perfect planning)
EVERY
single MECHANICAL movement of the 'future' product.
5) refer to 3) again .. ie the product is not yet around
6) refer to 4) again .. ie ..god knew by perfect planning every
single
mechanical movement of the product to be 'made'.
7) refer to 3)
8) refer to 4)
9) refer to 3)
10) refer to 4)
11) refer to 3) ...etc.
Most of us already know and understand the contradictions of
being
all-knowing and perfect planning AND yet being able to make a
product
that has free-will, such that the product's actions were not
perfectly
planned in advance.
But if a christian debates with us... all we need to do is to
get
them
to work themselves out of the above accurate sequence.
It simply means that if you're all-knowing and perfect planning,
then
there's no way that you can make a product with free will,
because
all
the things you do and choose are already known in
advance...including
choosing every single mechanical movement for your future
product.
In
fact....all the future movements of the future product are
actually
nothing more than that creator's own movements, because that
creator
chose and planned everything when the product wasn't even
around.
Thus
the product's future movements are the creator's own movements.
Thus, if the product isn't responsible for anything, then
obviously
judgement day is completely pointless and irrelevant.
Kenny L.
Are you still stuck on this simple issue, Kenny. The problem
is
your
usage of the term perfect planner. From a Christian perspective
all
this
entails is that he created everything perfectly and that his
overall
plan
will have perfect results. It does not mean that every creature
will
act
in
accord with Gods moral will.
One of the perfect results is that all mankind will forever be
allowed
their freedom as to their moral acts.
God being omnisceint knows perfectly what every creature will
do
with
the freewill that he allowed as part of that perfect plan. He
does
not
mechanicly cause every free action of the creature but he does
know
every
free action before he created anything. If he caused all actions
we
couldnt
be free.
Your problem continues to be a mechanistic view of causation.
Either an act is uncaused, caused by another or self caused.
Remember
we
are
are not talking about causing our own existence but only our
actions,
as
self caused coming to exist is impossible.
Randy, me making a machine knowing what it will do is EXACTLY like
your
god
making a human knowing what it will do. There is NO difference. The
results
are EXACTLY the same.
But thats exactly the point, you cant know perfectly what the machine
will
do because you are timebound and in process just as the machine is.
You
cant
know if it might breakdown and when.
God does not have this limitation because he is outside time.
BOGGLE! Ok, I stand corrected. The humans the supposed god creates have
even
LESS free will than the machine I make that could go haywire.
The god-created humans have NO free will whatsoever, they can't help but
function EXACTLY as intended.
When he
created the universe and things began to change, time began because
time
is
just the measurement of change.
God knows all of time from eternity.
Such a god would have created the future, leaving us no say in it at
all.
Sorry, you are completely free and yet he knows exactly how you will use
your freedom. You are confined to freedom in time, he is outside looking
in.
You're completely missing the point, the god supposedly CREATED me knowing
what I would do. That's the exact equivalent of me building a machine that
functions exactly as I intended. In the god's eyes, that's what we are. We
are the god's robots.
That's exactly right. Not only was 'god' supposed to create folks
knowing what they would do, 'god' also created folks to do what 'god
chose them to do in terms of every single mechanical movement
perfectly planned. This MUST have had happened (if we 'assume' that
this imaginary god were to really exist...just imagining that's all)
.... because the product (us) wasn't even around when 'god'
all-knowingly knew EVERYTHING, and had already perfectly planned
EVERYTHING. And if you are bold enough to accept all-knowingly and
perfectly designed EVERYTHING...then let's think of ONE thing that
MUST fall into this perfectly designed category ... ummm..let's just
say .. ummm....mechanical movements. If Randy is courageous enough to
tell us that all god's product's mechanical movements weren't
PERFECTLY planned....then obviously Randy has his beliefs completely
messed up...because this link here says it all ....
" http://www.bbie.org/english/Study07OriginofJesus/0703ChristinGodsPlan.html
"
Thus Randy is a liar because the christians are taught that 'god'
planned everything ..formulated everything. And mechanical movements
MUST be part of that perfect formulation. Not just mechanical
movement......it's EVERY SINGLE mechanical movement of every
product...down to the smallest body/atom displacement that anybody and
anything can measure.
Kenny L.
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "Randy Story" |
|
| Title: Re: try to get out of this one christians |
09 Apr 2004 11:28:27 AM |
|
|
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0404090715.2be3bea6@posting.google.com...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:<ycSdnQ2KbYth2evdRVn-gQ@io.com>...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:107ca178r5m2i90@corp.supernews.com...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:r4adna-1RJUqQejdRVn-sw@io.com...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1079pd9d6vi200d@corp.supernews.com...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:j_udnfjpCs0dFundRVn-jw@io.com...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:1078sokhd2nub4e@corp.supernews.com...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0404071219.271673b6@posting.google.com...
1) bible says at the beginning, only 'god' was around (thus
the
product - humans etc - was obviously not around).
2) bible says that 'god' is all-knowing, and a perfect
planner
(perfect planning? see exhibit A : refer to
http://www.bbie.org/english/Study07OriginofJesus/0703ChristinGodsPlan.html
)
3) 'god' all-knowingly knew that he/she/it would create a
product
(but
has not actually made it yet, because we're starting from 1)
...the
beginning.
4) since is already all-knowing and a perfect planner, then
obviously
every god must have had already known (by perfect planning)
EVERY
single MECHANICAL movement of the 'future' product.
5) refer to 3) again .. ie the product is not yet around
6) refer to 4) again .. ie ..god knew by perfect planning
every
single
mechanical movement of the product to be 'made'.
7) refer to 3)
8) refer to 4)
9) refer to 3)
10) refer to 4)
11) refer to 3) ...etc.
Most of us already know and understand the contradictions of
being
all-knowing and perfect planning AND yet being able to make
a
product
that has free-will, such that the product's actions were not
perfectly
planned in advance.
But if a christian debates with us... all we need to do is
to
get
them
to work themselves out of the above accurate sequence.
It simply means that if you're all-knowing and perfect
planning,
then
there's no way that you can make a product with free will,
because
all
the things you do and choose are already known in
advance...including
choosing | | | | | | | | |
