| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"maff" |
| Date: |
19 Jul 2005 02:58:30 PM |
| Object: |
Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers
http://www2.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-07/16/content_460706.htm
By Wang Zhuoqiong (China Daily)
Updated: 2005-07-16 07:10
More male Asian elephants in China will be born without tusks because
poaching of tusked elephants is reducing the gene pool, a recent study
predicts.
Research by Zhang Li, an associate professor of zoology with the
college of life sciences at Beijing Normal University, discovered that
the gene for tusklessness is spreading among the endangered species in
its habitat in Yunnan Province of Southwest China.
Elephants (Tuskless OR tusked) Tuskless OR tusked
http://news.google.com/news?q=Elephants%20(Tuskless%20OR%20tusked)%20Tuskless%20OR%20tusked&num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?q=Elephants+(Tuskless+OR+tusked)+Tuskless+OR+tusked&num=100&hl=en&lr=&tab=nw&ie=UTF-8&sa=N
http://www.google.com/search?q=Elephants+%28Tuskless+OR+tusked%29+Tuskless+OR+tusked&btnG=Search+Directory&hl=en&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?q=Elephants%20(Tuskless%20OR%20tusked)%20Tuskless%20OR%20tusked&num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&sa=N&scoring=d&tab=wg
Evolution
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.origins/msg/dcd21bff8e67e490
Is the wakening giant a monster?
http://tinyurl.com/iws6
A Blueprint for the Future
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/59c28cd6dfe6f60f
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| User: "Stanley Friesen" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
20 Jul 2005 08:10:45 AM |
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"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote:
Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers
http://www2.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-07/16/content_460706.htm
By Wang Zhuoqiong (China Daily)
Updated: 2005-07-16 07:10
More male Asian elephants in China will be born without tusks because
poaching of tusked elephants is reducing the gene pool, a recent study
predicts.
Research by Zhang Li, an associate professor of zoology with the
college of life sciences at Beijing Normal University, discovered that
the gene for tusklessness is spreading among the endangered species in
its habitat in Yunnan Province of Southwest China.
This is also true of African elephants, as described in an article in
_Natural History_. Per the article, poaching is also severely
disrupting the social structure of the elephants.
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
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| User: "Stanley Friesen" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
21 Jul 2005 08:53:53 AM |
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Stanley Friesen <sarima@friesen.net> wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote:
Research by Zhang Li, an associate professor of zoology with the
college of life sciences at Beijing Normal University, discovered that
the gene for tusklessness is spreading among the endangered species in
its habitat in Yunnan Province of Southwest China.
This is also true of African elephants, as described in an article in
_Natural History_. Per the article, poaching is also severely
disrupting the social structure of the elephants.
Oops, wrong magazine, the article was in _Smithsonian_.
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
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| User: "Conspiracy of Doves" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
19 Jul 2005 03:10:09 PM |
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See? God is protecting the elephants by taking away thier tusks, so the
poachers will have no reason to hunt them.
You have any idea how hard it is to type that with a straight face?
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| User: "eNo" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
19 Jul 2005 06:15:31 PM |
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"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121803809.771666.10720@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
See? God is protecting the elephants by taking away thier tusks, so the
poachers will have no reason to hunt them.
According to this link
(http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200507/s1416092.htm), the numbers have
gone from 2-5% to 5-10% of overall male elephant population being tuskless.
That's hardly (as of yet) a black moth scenario, though I admit elephant
reproduction frequency may have something to do with that. At any rate, a
shift of this size could also be explained by genetic drift. Just a thought.
--
`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°
,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,
eNo
"Test everything; hold on to the good."
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
19 Jul 2005 10:20:29 PM |
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"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121803809.771666.10720@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
See? God is protecting the elephants by taking away thier tusks, so the
poachers will have no reason to hunt them.
You have any idea how hard it is to type that with a straight face?
Are you an elephant? What do you mean typing with your face? You have
trouble holding your trunk straight on the keyboard?
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| User: "PeterL" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
19 Jul 2005 03:22:47 PM |
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Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
See? God is protecting the elephants by taking away thier tusks, so the
poachers will have no reason to hunt them.
You have any idea how hard it is to type that with a straight face?
Next on God's list, meatless cows.
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| User: "Ken Shackleton" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
19 Jul 2005 05:06:15 PM |
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PeterL wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
See? God is protecting the elephants by taking away thier tusks, so the
poachers will have no reason to hunt them.
You have any idea how hard it is to type that with a straight face?
Next on God's list, meatless cows.
Made of Tofu instead?
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
20 Jul 2005 01:02:29 PM |
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On 19 Jul 2005 15:06:15 -0700, in talk.origins
"Ken Shackleton" <ken.shackleton@shaw.ca> wrote in
<1121810775.306821.199970@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
PeterL wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
See? God is protecting the elephants by taking away thier tusks, so the
poachers will have no reason to hunt them.
You have any idea how hard it is to type that with a straight face?
Next on God's list, meatless cows.
Made of Tofu instead?
That would protect them from me.
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| User: "Bob Casanova" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
20 Jul 2005 05:42:57 PM |
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On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:02:29 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com>:
On 19 Jul 2005 15:06:15 -0700, in talk.origins
"Ken Shackleton" <ken.shackleton@shaw.ca> wrote in
<1121810775.306821.199970@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
PeterL wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
See? God is protecting the elephants by taking away thier tusks, so the
poachers will have no reason to hunt them.
You have any idea how hard it is to type that with a straight face?
Next on God's list, meatless cows.
Made of Tofu instead?
That would protect them from me.
I'll second *that*!
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
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| User: "Ben Goren" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
19 Jul 2005 06:33:08 PM |
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PeterL wrote:
Next on God's list, meatless cows.
Shades of Larson's tofudebeasts of the Serengeti....
Cheers,
b&
--
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
All but God can prove this sentence true.
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| User: "Stanley Friesen" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
20 Jul 2005 08:12:38 AM |
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"Ben Goren" <ben.goren@gmail.com> wrote:
PeterL wrote:
Next on God's list, meatless cows.
Shades of Larson's tofudebeasts of the Serengeti....
Actually it reminds me more of the Nufu episode of _Teen Titans_ on TV.
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
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| User: "Lt. Kizhe Catson" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
19 Jul 2005 03:34:25 PM |
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Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
See? God is protecting the elephants by taking away thier tusks, so the
poachers will have no reason to hunt them.
You have any idea how hard it is to type that with a straight face?
Try using your fingers instead.
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Chez Watt (was Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers) |
21 Jul 2005 09:42:24 PM |
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See? God is protecting the elephants by taking away thier tusks, so the
poachers will have no reason to hunt them.
You have any idea how hard it is to type that with a straight face?
Try using your fingers instead.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
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| User: "floyd" |
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| Title: Re: Chez Watt (was Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers) |
21 Jul 2005 10:05:35 PM |
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AC wrote:
See? God is protecting the elephants by taking away thier tusks, so the
poachers will have no reason to hunt them.
You have any idea how hard it is to type that with a straight face?
Try using your fingers instead.
After reading any number of posts that caused me to try to type with my
straight face, or at least pound the front of my head against the
keyboard,
I have to break the rules of Chez Watt to second that nomination.
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| User: "Ferrous Patella" |
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| Title: Re: Chez Watt (was Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers) |
22 Jul 2005 10:23:07 AM |
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news:1122001535.759149.92020@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com by floyd:
[...]
the rules of Chez Watt
{...]
I know you are just trying to push my buttons!
--
Ferrous Patella (Homo gerardii)
T.A., Philosophy Lab
University of Ediacara
"Nature as God's "reality" show - what a concept!"
--A t.o. poster who wishes to remain anonymous
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| User: "floyd" |
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| Title: Re: Chez Watt (was Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers) |
25 Jul 2005 01:40:01 PM |
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AC wrote:
See? God is protecting the elephants by taking away thier tusks, so the
poachers will have no reason to hunt them.
You have any idea how hard it is to type that with a straight face?
Try using your fingers instead.
http://www.dealernation.com/images/kb.gif
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| User: "Uncle Buck" |
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| Title: Re: Chez Watt (was Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers) |
25 Jul 2005 09:17:21 PM |
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On 25 Jul 2005 11:40:01 -0700, "floyd" <farchy@u.washington.edu>
wrote:
http://www.dealernation.com/images/kb.gif
Now _that_ was *cute*. :-)
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
\~------------0-0-0-O-o*O*o*O*o-O-0-0-0------------~/
There are two main things we must concern ourselves
with in life: Our "to Do" list and our "do-do" list.
/~------------0-0-0-O-o*O*o*O*o-O-0-0-0------------~\
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| User: "PeterL" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
19 Jul 2005 03:53:09 PM |
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Lt. Kizhe Catson wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
See? God is protecting the elephants by taking away thier tusks, so the
poachers will have no reason to hunt them.
You have any idea how hard it is to type that with a straight face?
Try using your fingers instead.
That's funny.
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| User: "Grendel" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
19 Jul 2005 03:25:54 PM |
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Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
See? God is protecting the elephants by taking away thier tusks, so the
poachers will have no reason to hunt them.
Did you happen to notice they are still elephants?
Or have you got a entire separate evolutionary tree worked out already?
Perhaps someone should film them to show evolutionists a thousand years
from now that they actually came from elephants, not large gray things.
You have any idea how hard it is to type that with a straight face?
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| User: "Ken Shackleton" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
19 Jul 2005 05:08:30 PM |
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Grendel wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
See? God is protecting the elephants by taking away thier tusks, so the
poachers will have no reason to hunt them.
Did you happen to notice they are still elephants?
As a distantly related aside......
my elder daughter has to have her wisdom teeth removed....and she only
has two of them [in her jaw]. The upper pair never formed....
And she is still human! Go figure.
Or have you got a entire separate evolutionary tree worked out already?
Perhaps someone should film them to show evolutionists a thousand years
from now that they actually came from elephants, not large gray things.
You have any idea how hard it is to type that with a straight face?
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| User: "Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
22 Jul 2005 09:21:57 AM |
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"Ken Shackleton" <ken.shackleton@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:1121810910.692993.108100@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
Grendel wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
See? God is protecting the elephants by taking away thier tusks, so
the poachers will have no reason to hunt them.
Did you happen to notice they are still elephants?
As a distantly related aside......
my elder daughter has to have her wisdom teeth removed....and she only
has two of them [in her jaw]. The upper pair never formed....
And she is still human! Go figure.
Are you sure? Try poking her with a stick...
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| User: "Ken Shackleton" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
22 Jul 2005 03:49:29 PM |
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Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia wrote:
"Ken Shackleton" <ken.shackleton@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:1121810910.692993.108100@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
Grendel wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
See? God is protecting the elephants by taking away thier tusks, so
the poachers will have no reason to hunt them.
Did you happen to notice they are still elephants?
As a distantly related aside......
my elder daughter has to have her wisdom teeth removed....and she only
has two of them [in her jaw]. The upper pair never formed....
And she is still human! Go figure.
Are you sure? Try poking her with a stick...
Did that....she said "Dad!!!....stop that...you are such a loser!"
That's my girl for sure....
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| User: "Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
22 Jul 2005 08:03:18 PM |
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"Ken Shackleton" <ken.shackleton@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:1122065369.282526.23650@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia wrote:
"Ken Shackleton" <ken.shackleton@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:1121810910.692993.108100@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
Grendel wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
See? God is protecting the elephants by taking away thier tusks,
so
the poachers will have no reason to hunt them.
Did you happen to notice they are still elephants?
As a distantly related aside......
my elder daughter has to have her wisdom teeth removed....and she
only
has two of them [in her jaw]. The upper pair never formed....
And she is still human! Go figure.
Are you sure? Try poking her with a stick...
Did that....she said "Dad!!!....stop that...you are such a loser!"
That's my girl for sure....
Sounds like it's time for an exorcism.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
20 Jul 2005 09:24:17 AM |
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removed soc.culture.china because I don't see how my question would fit
in there.
Ken Shackleton wrote:
As a distantly related aside......
my elder daughter has to have her wisdom teeth removed....and she only
has two of them [in her jaw]. The upper pair never formed....
And she is still human! Go figure.
Does anybody know if one of the famous ID clowns ever commented on this
issue? Why would a perfect designer give some of us a few extra teeth
that have to be removed in most cases because they simply don't fit?
j.m.
#1491
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| User: "Ken Shackleton" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
20 Jul 2005 01:03:20 PM |
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wrote:
removed soc.culture.china because I don't see how my question would fit
in there.
Ken Shackleton wrote:
As a distantly related aside......
my elder daughter has to have her wisdom teeth removed....and she only
has two of them [in her jaw]. The upper pair never formed....
And she is still human! Go figure.
Does anybody know if one of the famous ID clowns ever commented on this
issue? Why would a perfect designer give some of us a few extra teeth
that have to be removed in most cases because they simply don't fit?
[sarcasm]
My guess is that they will say that it is the price of The Fall! That
means that my elder daughter must be more "pure" than I am, since I had
to have all 4 wisdom teeth extracted. My wife only has two wisdom teeth
as well that never did need extraction....she is obviously more "pure"
than I. My younger daughter, like me, has 4 wisdom teeth and they all
need extracting....she is somewhat impish in her character, so probably
deserves the full set of four.
Interestingly....the dentist told me that she has seen some patients
with extra wisdom teeth......as many as 8 total! These must be
particularly evil people! I wonder if dentists will pay for the sin of
denying God's Punishment to these people by removing these teeth and
alleviating their righteous suffering?
[/sarcasm]
j.m.
#1491
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
20 Jul 2005 01:23:04 PM |
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"Ken Shackleton" <ken.shackleton@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:1121882600.187269.5910@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
j.m.1491@gmx.net wrote:
removed soc.culture.china because I don't see how my question would fit
in there.
Ken Shackleton wrote:
As a distantly related aside......
my elder daughter has to have her wisdom teeth removed....and she only
has two of them [in her jaw]. The upper pair never formed....
And she is still human! Go figure.
Does anybody know if one of the famous ID clowns ever commented on this
issue? Why would a perfect designer give some of us a few extra teeth
that have to be removed in most cases because they simply don't fit?
[sarcasm]
My guess is that they will say that it is the price of The Fall! That
means that my elder daughter must be more "pure" than I am, since I had
to have all 4 wisdom teeth extracted. My wife only has two wisdom teeth
as well that never did need extraction....she is obviously more "pure"
than I. My younger daughter, like me, has 4 wisdom teeth and they all
need extracting....she is somewhat impish in her character, so probably
deserves the full set of four.
Interestingly....the dentist told me that she has seen some patients
with extra wisdom teeth......as many as 8 total! These must be
particularly evil people! I wonder if dentists will pay for the sin of
denying God's Punishment to these people by removing these teeth and
alleviating their righteous suffering?
Oh my. A friend of mine had all four wisdom teeth removed and there was
another complete set right behind them. I always knew he was an evil
***** ;)
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Science doesn't burn people at the stake for disagreeing - Vic Sagerquist
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
20 Jul 2005 04:13:30 PM |
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Ken Shackleton wrote:
j.m.1491@gmx.net wrote:
removed soc.culture.china because I don't see how my question would fit
in there.
Ken Shackleton wrote:
As a distantly related aside......
my elder daughter has to have her wisdom teeth removed....and she only
has two of them [in her jaw]. The upper pair never formed....
And she is still human! Go figure.
Does anybody know if one of the famous ID clowns ever commented on this
issue? Why would a perfect designer give some of us a few extra teeth
that have to be removed in most cases because they simply don't fit?
[sarcasm]
My guess is that they will say that it is the price of The Fall!
Possible. At least those that admit that ID is a religion may do this.
Of course that would open the problem why an omniscient being would
create something perfect, and this perfect creation then "falls".
The 'ID is science' clowns couldn't do this stunt. So, I'll wait till
the next one stops by and ask. Actually, where are they? Normally they
crowd this newsgroups, but when you have a question for them they're gone.
That
means that my elder daughter must be more "pure" than I am, since I had
to have all 4 wisdom teeth extracted. My wife only has two wisdom teeth
as well that never did need extraction....she is obviously more "pure"
than I. My younger daughter, like me, has 4 wisdom teeth and they all
need extracting....she is somewhat impish in her character, so probably
deserves the full set of four.
Interestingly....the dentist told me that she has seen some patients
with extra wisdom teeth......as many as 8 total! These must be
particularly evil people! I wonder if dentists will pay for the sin of
denying God's Punishment to these people by removing these teeth and
alleviating their righteous suffering?
I have all four 'regular' wisdom teeth. They fit, but the lower ones are
at about 30 degree to the upper ones. Totally useless. A little more
growth, and all would have to go. And I had an extra tooth, growing
horizontally bellow the regular ones. Came out under the lower right
canine, and started somewhere before the wisdom tooth. Took an hour to
get it out. The dentist doing the job had to call a college and ask for
ideas. Not a great experience, especially when he tells me up front that
if something goes wrong I may loose four healthy regular teeth. Whatever
he was told worked and no other teeth were damaged.
Punishment for being evil? Nice god, I say!
j.m.
#1491
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| User: "Nancy Norton" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
20 Jul 2005 03:03:58 PM |
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Ken Shackleton wrote:
j.m.1491@gmx.net wrote:
removed soc.culture.china because I don't see how my question would fit
in there.
Ken Shackleton wrote:
As a distantly related aside......
my elder daughter has to have her wisdom teeth removed....and she only
has two of them [in her jaw]. The upper pair never formed....
And she is still human! Go figure.
Does anybody know if one of the famous ID clowns ever commented on this
issue? Why would a perfect designer give some of us a few extra teeth
that have to be removed in most cases because they simply don't fit?
[sarcasm]
My guess is that they will say that it is the price of The Fall! That
means that my elder daughter must be more "pure" than I am, since I had
to have all 4 wisdom teeth extracted. My wife only has two wisdom teeth
as well that never did need extraction....she is obviously more "pure"
than I. My younger daughter, like me, has 4 wisdom teeth and they all
need extracting....she is somewhat impish in her character, so probably
deserves the full set of four.
Interestingly....the dentist told me that she has seen some patients
with extra wisdom teeth......as many as 8 total! These must be
particularly evil people! I wonder if dentists will pay for the sin of
denying God's Punishment to these people by removing these teeth and
alleviating their righteous suffering?
[/sarcasm]
j.m.
#1491
My husband had 6 - as did his mother. They both had two extra up on top.
The extra 2 weren't well formed but all 6 had to come out.
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| User: "Harry F. Leopold" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
21 Jul 2005 09:41:18 AM |
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On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:03:58 -0500, Nancy Norton wrote
(in article <ksGdnebwiJ2mM0PfRVn-1g@comcast.com>):
Ken Shackleton wrote:
j.m.1491@gmx.net wrote:
removed soc.culture.china because I don't see how my question would fit
in there.
Ken Shackleton wrote:
As a distantly related aside......
my elder daughter has to have her wisdom teeth removed....and she only
has two of them [in her jaw]. The upper pair never formed....
And she is still human! Go figure.
Does anybody know if one of the famous ID clowns ever commented on this
issue? Why would a perfect designer give some of us a few extra teeth
that have to be removed in most cases because they simply don't fit?
[sarcasm]
My guess is that they will say that it is the price of The Fall! That
means that my elder daughter must be more "pure" than I am, since I had
to have all 4 wisdom teeth extracted. My wife only has two wisdom teeth
as well that never did need extraction....she is obviously more "pure"
than I. My younger daughter, like me, has 4 wisdom teeth and they all
need extracting....she is somewhat impish in her character, so probably
deserves the full set of four.
Interestingly....the dentist told me that she has seen some patients
with extra wisdom teeth......as many as 8 total! These must be
particularly evil people! I wonder if dentists will pay for the sin of
denying God's Punishment to these people by removing these teeth and
alleviating their righteous suffering?
[/sarcasm]
j.m.
#1491
My husband had 6 - as did his mother. They both had two extra up on top.
The extra 2 weren't well formed
That is me.
but all 6 had to come out.
I still have all of mine, they have not caused me any problems and at my age
(54) I don't think they will.
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
³It¹s not over till the fat whale farts.²
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| User: "Rick Merrill" |
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| Title: Re: Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers |
19 Jul 2005 03:47:37 PM |
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maff wrote:
Tuskless elephants evolving due to poachers
.....
and because the elephants are so few that most males get to
procreate without having to fight others to the death and
because the predators are so few that their genes can continue
without their having to fight off predators that could kill their whole
family...
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