| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
05 Mar 2004 09:39:21 AM |
| Object: |
Two very good breifs |
The following are two very good briefs in the Pledge case written by
Douglas Laycock and Peter Irons
Douglas Laycock-- Prof of Con Law U of Texas
Books and article written by Prof Laycock
http://www.utexas.edu/law/faculty/dlaycock/publist.html
The brief written by Laycock in support of Newdow
http://pewforum.org/religion-schools/pledge/docs/Bailey.pdf
**********************************************
Peter Irons
Peter Irons is Professor of Political Science and Director of the Earl
Warren Bill of Rights Project. Professor Irons is the author of six books
on the Supreme Court and constitutional litigation, including:
The New Deal Lawyers, by Peter irons
Justice Delayed, by Peter Irons
Brennan Vs. Rehnquist: The Battle for the Constitution, by Peter Irons
The Courage of Their Convictions: Sixteen Americans Who Fought Their Way to
the Supreme Court By Peter Irons
People's History of the Supreme Court By Peter H. Irons,
May It Please the Court . . .: The Most Significant Oral Arguments Made
before the Supreme Court since 1955 By Peter H. Irons
May It Please the Court...: 23 Cases as Argued Before the Supreme Court,
Including the Actual Voices of the Attorneys & Justices in Oral Argument &
Questioning By Peter Irons
May It Please the Court: Transcripts of the Oral Arguments Made before the
Supreme Court in Sixteen Key First Amendment Cases By Peter H. Irons
Jim Crow's Children: The Broken Promise of the Brown Decision
By Peter H. Irons
Justice at War: The inside Story of the Japanese American Internment
By Peter H. Irons
He has also contributed to numerous law reviews and other journals. He was
chosen in 1988 as the first Raoul Wallenberg Distinguished Visiting
Professor of Human Rights at Rutgers University. He has been invited to
lecture on constitutional law and civil liberties at the law schools of
Harvard, Yale, Berkeley, Stanford, and more than twenty other schools. In
addition to his academic work, Professor Irons has been active in public
affairs. He is a practicing civil rights and liberties attorney, and was
lead council in the 1980's in the successful effort to reverse the World
War Two criminal convictions of Japanese-Americans who challenged the
curfew and relocation orders. He was also elected to two terms on the
national board of the American Civil Liberties Union. Ph.D. Boston
University, 1973. J.D. Harvard Law School, 1978.
Peter Irons's brief in support of Newdow:
http://www.goldsteinhowe.com/blog/files/newdow.irons.pdf
.
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| User: "Mr. Thorne" |
|
| Title: Re: Two very good breifs |
05 Mar 2004 11:23:03 AM |
|
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It's a funny thing about briefs prepared by lawyers. For one, they persist
in labeling the table of contents incorrectly. And they persist in using
French spacing.
Law students should be required to take a short course in publishing, seeing
as so much of their work goes into preparing documents.
in article lo7h40lv74mikecq5jrjae8ak1ila66cf3@4ax.com,
at wrote on 05 03 2004 7:39:
The following are two very good briefs in the Pledge case written by
Douglas Laycock and Peter Irons
Douglas Laycock-- Prof of Con Law U of Texas
Books and article written by Prof Laycock
http://www.utexas.edu/law/faculty/dlaycock/publist.html
The brief written by Laycock in support of Newdow
http://pewforum.org/religion-schools/pledge/docs/Bailey.pdf
**********************************************
Peter Irons
Peter Irons is Professor of Political Science and Director of the Earl
Warren Bill of Rights Project. Professor Irons is the author of six books
on the Supreme Court and constitutional litigation, including:
The New Deal Lawyers, by Peter irons
Justice Delayed, by Peter Irons
Brennan Vs. Rehnquist: The Battle for the Constitution, by Peter Irons
The Courage of Their Convictions: Sixteen Americans Who Fought Their Way to
the Supreme Court By Peter Irons
People's History of the Supreme Court By Peter H. Irons,
May It Please the Court . . .: The Most Significant Oral Arguments Made
before the Supreme Court since 1955 By Peter H. Irons
May It Please the Court...: 23 Cases as Argued Before the Supreme Court,
Including the Actual Voices of the Attorneys & Justices in Oral Argument &
Questioning By Peter Irons
May It Please the Court: Transcripts of the Oral Arguments Made before the
Supreme Court in Sixteen Key First Amendment Cases By Peter H. Irons
Jim Crow's Children: The Broken Promise of the Brown Decision
By Peter H. Irons
Justice at War: The inside Story of the Japanese American Internment
By Peter H. Irons
He has also contributed to numerous law reviews and other journals. He was
chosen in 1988 as the first Raoul Wallenberg Distinguished Visiting
Professor of Human Rights at Rutgers University. He has been invited to
lecture on constitutional law and civil liberties at the law schools of
Harvard, Yale, Berkeley, Stanford, and more than twenty other schools. In
addition to his academic work, Professor Irons has been active in public
affairs. He is a practicing civil rights and liberties attorney, and was
lead council in the 1980's in the successful effort to reverse the World
War Two criminal convictions of Japanese-Americans who challenged the
curfew and relocation orders. He was also elected to two terms on the
national board of the American Civil Liberties Union. Ph.D. Boston
University, 1973. J.D. Harvard Law School, 1978.
Peter Irons's brief in support of Newdow:
http://www.goldsteinhowe.com/blog/files/newdow.irons.pdf
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Two very good breifs |
05 Mar 2004 11:34:35 AM |
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"Mr. Thorne" <lyricalreckoner@yahoo.com> wrote:
:|
:|It's a funny thing about briefs prepared by lawyers. For one, they persist
:|in labeling the table of contents incorrectly. And they persist in using
:|French spacing.
There are certain ways that such briefs are suppose to be written, etc
:|
:|Law students should be required to take a short course in publishing, seeing
:|as so much of their work goes into preparing documents.
They are taught legal writing which includes the proper way to write memos
briefs etc based on the accepted way of doing it.
Meanwhile my new scanner software arrived so I can speed up my process of
downloading and turning each PDF brief into a regular text document which I
can then print out (I prefer reading from paper or book etc, over a
computer screen.) Also doing this converts long PDF files into much shorter
text files. A typical 47 page PDF document ends up being like 16 to 20
pages in a wordperfect text file.
I am or was slowly working my way though the various briefs now I can go
faster. Plus I didn't typo brief this time as I did in the subject above
(grin)
:|
:|
:|in article lo7h40lv74mikecq5jrjae8ak1ila66cf3@4ax.com,
:| at wrote on 05 03 2004 7:39:
:|
:|> The following are two very good briefs in the Pledge case written by
:|> Douglas Laycock and Peter Irons
:|>
:|> Douglas Laycock-- Prof of Con Law U of Texas
:|> Books and article written by Prof Laycock
:|> http://www.utexas.edu/law/faculty/dlaycock/publist.html
:|>
:|> The brief written by Laycock in support of Newdow
:|> http://pewforum.org/religion-schools/pledge/docs/Bailey.pdf
:|>
:|> **********************************************
:|> Peter Irons
:|> Peter Irons is Professor of Political Science and Director of the Earl
:|> Warren Bill of Rights Project. Professor Irons is the author of six books
:|> on the Supreme Court and constitutional litigation, including:
:|>
:|> The New Deal Lawyers, by Peter irons
:|>
:|> Justice Delayed, by Peter Irons
:|>
:|> Brennan Vs. Rehnquist: The Battle for the Constitution, by Peter Irons
:|>
:|> The Courage of Their Convictions: Sixteen Americans Who Fought Their Way to
:|> the Supreme Court By Peter Irons
:|>
:|> People's History of the Supreme Court By Peter H. Irons,
:|>
:|> May It Please the Court . . .: The Most Significant Oral Arguments Made
:|> before the Supreme Court since 1955 By Peter H. Irons
:|>
:|> May It Please the Court...: 23 Cases as Argued Before the Supreme Court,
:|> Including the Actual Voices of the Attorneys & Justices in Oral Argument &
:|> Questioning By Peter Irons
:|>
:|> May It Please the Court: Transcripts of the Oral Arguments Made before the
:|> Supreme Court in Sixteen Key First Amendment Cases By Peter H. Irons
:|>
:|> Jim Crow's Children: The Broken Promise of the Brown Decision
:|> By Peter H. Irons
:|>
:|> Justice at War: The inside Story of the Japanese American Internment
:|> By Peter H. Irons
:|>
:|> He has also contributed to numerous law reviews and other journals. He was
:|> chosen in 1988 as the first Raoul Wallenberg Distinguished Visiting
:|> Professor of Human Rights at Rutgers University. He has been invited to
:|> lecture on constitutional law and civil liberties at the law schools of
:|> Harvard, Yale, Berkeley, Stanford, and more than twenty other schools. In
:|> addition to his academic work, Professor Irons has been active in public
:|> affairs. He is a practicing civil rights and liberties attorney, and was
:|> lead council in the 1980's in the successful effort to reverse the World
:|> War Two criminal convictions of Japanese-Americans who challenged the
:|> curfew and relocation orders. He was also elected to two terms on the
:|> national board of the American Civil Liberties Union. Ph.D. Boston
:|> University, 1973. J.D. Harvard Law School, 1978.
:|>
:|> Peter Irons's brief in support of Newdow:
:|>
:|> http://www.goldsteinhowe.com/blog/files/newdow.irons.pdf
:|>
.
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
|
| Title: Re: Two very good briefs |
05 Mar 2004 12:34:32 PM |
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On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 wrote:
I am or was slowly working my way though the various briefs now I can go
faster. Plus I didn't typo brief this time as I did in the subject above
(grin)
Let's fix that?
.
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
|
| Title: Re: Two very good breifs |
05 Mar 2004 12:33:03 PM |
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On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Mr. Thorne wrote:
It's a funny thing about briefs prepared by lawyers. For one, they persist
in labeling the table of contents incorrectly. And they persist in using
French spacing.
French spacing?
Law students should be required to take a short course in publishing, seeing
as so much of their work goes into preparing documents.
I have written to one of my french professors to ask what is french
spacing. I have never heard this expression before.
Sounds like a European contraceptive technique. ;-)
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Two very good breifs |
05 Mar 2004 12:39:30 PM |
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On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:33:03 -0600 in alt.atheism, Carol Lee Smith
(Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Mr. Thorne wrote:
It's a funny thing about briefs prepared by lawyers. For one, they persist
in labeling the table of contents incorrectly. And they persist in using
French spacing.
French spacing?
Law students should be required to take a short course in publishing, seeing
as so much of their work goes into preparing documents.
I have written to one of my french professors to ask what is french
spacing. I have never heard this expression before.
IIRC two spaces after the end of a sentence.
Sounds like a European contraceptive technique. ;-)
True.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
|
| Title: Re: Two very good breifs |
05 Mar 2004 12:58:57 PM |
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On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Therion Ware wrote:
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:33:03 -0600 in alt.atheism, Carol Lee Smith
(Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Mr. Thorne wrote:
It's a funny thing about briefs prepared by lawyers. For one, they persist
in labeling the table of contents incorrectly. And they persist in using
French spacing.
French spacing?
Law students should be required to take a short course in publishing, seeing
as so much of their work goes into preparing documents.
I have written to one of my french professors to ask what is french
spacing. I have never heard this expression before.
IIRC two spaces after the end of a sentence.
After the period at the end of a sentence? (Also after a <:> ??)
Well, I am from the old school, as perhaps my technique indicates. It was
standard form I learned in business courses centuries [ ;-) ] ago.
Always two spaces. But during the time I was indoctrinated in this
alleged "french spacing," it was never, ever referred to as such.
Sounds like a European contraceptive technique. ;-)
True.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking,
which leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy."
-- Robert Anton Wilson
.
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| User: "Mr. Thorne" |
|
| Title: Re: Two very good breifs |
05 Mar 2004 01:45:43 PM |
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in article Pine.OSF.3.96.1040305125557.6005E-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu,
Carol Lee Smith at wrote on 05 03 2004 10:58:
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Therion Ware wrote:
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:33:03 -0600 in alt.atheism, Carol Lee Smith
(Carol Lee Smith < >) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Mr. Thorne wrote:
It's a funny thing about briefs prepared by lawyers. For one, they persist
in labeling the table of contents incorrectly. And they persist in using
French spacing.
French spacing?
Law students should be required to take a short course in publishing,
seeing
as so much of their work goes into preparing documents.
I have written to one of my french professors to ask what is french
spacing. I have never heard this expression before.
IIRC two spaces after the end of a sentence.
After the period at the end of a sentence? (Also after a <:> ??)
Well, I am from the old school, as perhaps my technique indicates. It was
standard form I learned in business courses centuries [ ;-) ] ago.
Always two spaces. But during the time I was indoctrinated in this
alleged "french spacing," it was never, ever referred to as such.
Indeed, French spacing is two spaces after punctuation. When you are using a
mono-spaced face [each character is the same with], you use two spaces after
a period. When you use a proportional face [an 'i' takes less width than an
'M'] you use one space.
Not sure why it's called French, but lawyers think it's hip.
Sounds like a European contraceptive technique. ;-)
True.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking,
which leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy."
-- Robert Anton Wilson
.
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Two very good breifs |
05 Mar 2004 10:07:46 AM |
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On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 wrote:
The following are two very good briefs in the Pledge case written by
Douglas Laycock and Peter Irons
<snip>
I especially appreciated the way the Irons brief covered the history of
the unconstitutional insertion.
http://pewforum.org/religion-schools/pledge/docs/Bailey.pdf
http://www.goldsteinhowe.com/blog/files/newdow.irons.pdf
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking,
which leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy."
-- Robert Anton Wilson
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Two very good breifs |
05 Mar 2004 12:09:13 PM |
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Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
:|On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 wrote:
:|
:|> The following are two very good briefs in the Pledge case written by
:|> Douglas Laycock and Peter Irons
:|
:|<snip>
:|
:|I especially appreciated the way the Irons brief covered the history of
:|the unconstitutional insertion.
:|
:|http://pewforum.org/religion-schools/pledge/docs/Bailey.pdf
:|http://www.goldsteinhowe.com/blog/files/newdow.irons.pdf
:|
I liked both. I liked the way Laycock held their feet to the fire with
regards to "either it is a religious act or you are having people take the
Lord's name in vain" Either way the government is wrong LOL
That also gets us into the Ten Commandments, taking the name in vain.
I haven't read the govt or school brief yet, got the government downloaded
today
But of course from what I have read of the pro Newdow briefs
so far the tactic is the same as is dine in these newsgroups. Deny
religious meaning and intent, fall back on history from the 1600s to
whenever, Cite Holy Trinity, etc, etc etc like any of that means a thing
with regards to this.
The words "under God" are current. They are current each day it is said. It
is not making a statement about history, about the past or what the
founders religious beliefs were or even their intent. it is not making a
statement about obsolete state constitutions that are voided or colonial
charters, or Abe Lincoln, etc.
I didn't think the historians & legal scholars did as good with their brief
in this case as they did with the brief they did for Locke v Davey. It was
ok but not as good I felt.
I'm sure I will find others as I read that I like and some I don't
Seems to be a fair number of people reading the briefs But of course it is
silent in the newsgroups about the Pledge case. Guess the other side is
hedging their bets to see how it turns out. No, They discovered
homosexuality. They get to show their biased narrow minded prejudices in
that area now.
Watch, should Newdow lose they will be falling out of the woodwork to
comment. LOL
.
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| User: "Roger" |
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| Title: Re: Two very good breifs |
05 Mar 2004 11:40:44 PM |
|
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<> wrote in message
news:bfgh40pld9155do8rmuvfibrhd9i2knkna@4ax.com...
Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
:|On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 wrote:
:|
:|> The following are two very good briefs in the Pledge case written by
:|> Douglas Laycock and Peter Irons
:|
:|<snip>
:|
:|I especially appreciated the way the Irons brief covered the history of
:|the unconstitutional insertion.
:|
:|http://pewforum.org/religion-schools/pledge/docs/Bailey.pdf
:|http://www.goldsteinhowe.com/blog/files/newdow.irons.pdf
:|
I liked both. I liked the way Laycock held their feet to the fire with
regards to "either it is a religious act or you are having people take
the
Lord's name in vain" Either way the government is wrong LOL
Ouch!
That also gets us into the Ten Commandments, taking the name in vain.
I haven't read the govt or school brief yet, got the government downloaded
today
But of course from what I have read of the pro Newdow briefs
so far the tactic is the same as is dine in these newsgroups. Deny
religious meaning and intent, fall back on history from the 1600s to
whenever, Cite Holy Trinity, etc, etc etc like any of that means a thing
with regards to this.
The words "under God" are current. They are current each day it is said.
It
is not making a statement about history, about the past or what the
founders religious beliefs were or even their intent. it is not making a
statement about obsolete state constitutions that are voided or colonial
charters, or Abe Lincoln, etc.
I didn't think the historians & legal scholars did as good with their
brief
in this case as they did with the brief they did for Locke v Davey. It was
ok but not as good I felt.
I'm sure I will find others as I read that I like and some I don't
Seems to be a fair number of people reading the briefs But of course it
is
silent in the newsgroups about the Pledge case. Guess the other side is
hedging their bets to see how it turns out. No, They discovered
homosexuality. They get to show their biased narrow minded prejudices in
that area now.
Watch, should Newdow lose they will be falling out of the woodwork to
comment. LOL
.
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
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| Title: French spacing; was: Two very good breifs/briefs |
06 Mar 2004 08:51:31 PM |
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This is what one of my french professors wrote (one out of three had never
heard of it):
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here's what I know about [french] spacing:
- one space between sentences (By the way, that's becoming the norm in
English too. It saves presses money.)
- one space before a colon, a semi-colon, a question mark, an exclamation
point
- one space after opening quotation marks and before closing quotation
marks
Periods and commas are treated just as they are here: there's no space
before them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking,
which leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy."
-- Robert Anton Wilson
.
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| User: "Roger" |
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| Title: Re: French spacing; was: Two very good breifs/briefs |
07 Mar 2004 12:33:04 AM |
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"Carol Lee Smith" <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.3.96.1040306204757.6778A-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu...
This is what one of my french professors wrote (one out of three had never
heard of it):
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here's what I know about [french] spacing:
- one space between sentences (By the way, that's becoming the norm in
English too. It saves presses money.)
The two spaces rule was only for typewriters. Typesetters have always used
an em-space, which is the width of the lowercase-m character. The space
between words is the en-space, the width of the lowercase-n. Typewriters
only have the en-space, so they used two to simulate the em-space. Computers
handle it automatically.
More useful in publishing/rarely useful in real life information from my
short stint in publishing.
- one space before a colon, a semi-colon, a question mark, an exclamation
point
- one space after opening quotation marks and before closing quotation
marks
Periods and commas are treated just as they are here: there's no space
before them.
Please! It keeps lines from starting with a comma or period. What's that
about?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking,
which leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy."
-- Robert Anton Wilson
.
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
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| Title: Re: French spacing; was: Two very good breifs/briefs |
07 Mar 2004 08:06:55 AM |
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On Sun, 7 Mar 2004, Roger wrote:
"Carol Lee Smith" <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.3.96.1040306204757.6778A-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu...
This is what one of my french professors wrote (one out of three had never
heard of it):
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here's what I know about [french] spacing:
- one space between sentences (By the way, that's becoming the norm in
English too. It saves presses money.)
<snip>
- one space before a colon, a semi-colon, a question mark, an exclamation
point
- one space after opening quotation marks and before closing quotation
marks
Periods and commas are treated just as they are here: there's no space
before them.
Please! It keeps lines from starting with a comma or period. What's that
about?
Une chose francaise, peut-etre? (sorry, but PINE won't accommodate
circonflexe, cedille grave or aigue)
"The image that keeps coming to you is the terrible iron power of the
truth, because the real truth, the whole truth, is massively powerful. It
doesn't have an ax to grind. It carries retribution and compassion in the
same hand. And there's no defense against it, because it is the truth."
--Carolyn See
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