| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Brian Westley" |
| Date: |
31 Jan 2008 02:32:54 PM |
| Object: |
UK: scout oath is religious discrimination |
I think it's pretty clear-cut that requiring a god-oath IS
religious discrimination, and (like in the US) the core issue is
whether the Scout Association can practice religious discrimination,
and that if it can, that it properly identify itself as a religious
organisation that requires members to believe in a god (or maybe
more):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/01/31/nscout131.xml
Scout's oath 'is religious discrimination'
By Jonathan Petre, Religion Correspondent
The Scout Association has been reported to the equality watchdog for
allegedly discriminating against atheists by making them swear an oath
to God.
....
Members in Britain, where there are nearly half a million scouts, have
to promise to "do their best to do their duty to God and to the
Queen", to help other people and to keep Scout law.
To accomodate the movement's 28 million members around the world, the
words can be modified to encompass non-Christian faiths.
The Scout guidelines state: "The phrase 'to love God' and 'duty to
God' implies belief in a supreme being and the acceptance of divine
guidance and therefore the word 'God' can be replaced by 'Allah', 'my
Dharma' or others as appropriate to suit the faith or religion of the
individual concerned."
But the two secular bodies said in a joint letter to Derek Twine, the
chief executive of the Scout Association, that the requirement for
members to have a faith should now be made optional.
They said that the Association's stance was "completely unacceptable"
for an organisation "that is so committed to personal development of
young people and that claims to foster mutual understanding between
different beliefs, which of course should include those of no
belief."
They also criticised it for claiming on its website that it was
"inclusive", and called on it to make ambiguously clear that it was a
religious organisation. Scouting leaders said that they had no
intention of changing the oath drawn up by Lord Baden-Powell, a
"muscular Christian" who believed that faith was an essential element
in the development of young people.
....
The Equality and Human Rights Commission, which was set up in October
and which is headed by Trevor Phillips, said it was committed to a
vision of fairness, but it was too early to comment on this case.
....
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "Stephen Rainsbury -" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
31 Jan 2008 04:31:15 PM |
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"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:13q4c3m12muvlbd@corp.supernews.com...
The Equality and Human Rights Commission, which was set up in October
and which is headed by Trevor Phillips, said it was committed to a
vision of fairness, but it was too early to comment on this case.
Oh sweet mother of mine another PC crusade, that's just what the world
wants.
I heard a really good interview on radio 4 last year where the speaker, Anne
Widdicome(?) made the point that people waving the PC flag don;t do it for
them selves but for others, who in most cases really don't give a rats arse
about it and wish they would shut up and stop embarrassing themselves.
IME most minorities don't want other people trying to fight their battles
for them, its demeaning and patronising, I think the south park episode with
the "conjoined foetus" nurse really said it all.
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
www.agathoid.org.uk(remove this bit)
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
31 Jan 2008 04:48:02 PM |
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"Stephen Rainsbury" <stephen@rainsbury.net-spamnet- -> writes:
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:13q4c3m12muvlbd@corp.supernews.com...
The Equality and Human Rights Commission, which was set up in October
and which is headed by Trevor Phillips, said it was committed to a
vision of fairness, but it was too early to comment on this case.
Oh sweet mother of mine another PC crusade, that's just what the world
wants.
Yeah, atheists *have* no rights.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "Stephen Rainsbury -" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
02 Feb 2008 06:00:53 AM |
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"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:13q4k12adplljc4@corp.supernews.com...
"Stephen Rainsbury" <stephen@rainsbury.net-spamnet- -> writes:
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:13q4c3m12muvlbd@corp.supernews.com...
The Equality and Human Rights Commission, which was set up in October
and which is headed by Trevor Phillips, said it was committed to a
vision of fairness, but it was too early to comment on this case.
Oh sweet mother of mine another PC crusade, that's just what the world
wants.
Yeah, atheists *have* no rights.
Everybody has rights, the PC lobby just want to shape them for them
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
www.agathoid.org.uk(remove this bit)
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| User: "jcon" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 09:36:07 AM |
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On Jan 31, 4:31 pm, "Stephen Rainsbury" <step...@rainsbury.net-
spamnet- -> wrote:
"Brian Westley" <west...@visi.com> wrote in message
news:13q4c3m12muvlbd@corp.supernews.com...
The Equality and Human Rights Commission, which was set up in October
and which is headed by Trevor Phillips, said it was committed to a
vision of fairness, but it was too early to comment on this case.
Oh sweet mother of mine another PC crusade, that's just what the world
wants.
I heard a really good interview on radio 4 last year where the speaker, Anne
Widdicome(?) made the point that people waving the PC flag don;t do it for
them selves but for others, who in most cases really don't give a rats arse
about it and wish they would shut up and stop embarrassing themselves.
I'm not arguing this for anyone else. I don't know what it's like in
the UK, but in the US, the emphasis on religion in scouting is
overt, and extremely annoying to someone who doesn't believe
in it.
Both my kids were in scouting, and I admit it wasn't so bad at
the Den/Troop level, but the minute you went to any larger
function, it was more like a revival meeting than anything I'd want
to be a part of.
I was a Den leader for several years, until I realized that the
US scouting rules forbid me from holding that post - and it wasn't
like there were a lot of others lining up for the job.
IME most minorities don't want other people trying to fight their battles
for them, its demeaning and patronising, I think the south park episode with
the "conjoined foetus" nurse really said it all.
Great episode, but for the Scouting issue, the Penn and Teller
***** episode is more to the point:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=penn+and+teller+scouting+*****
and I don't think P&T have ever been accused of being PC.
-jc
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unitwww.agathoid.org.uk(removethis bit)
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| User: "marc" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 09:52:52 AM |
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jcon wrote:
On Jan 31, 4:31 pm, "Stephen Rainsbury" <step...@rainsbury.net-
spamnet- -> wrote:
"Brian Westley" <west...@visi.com> wrote in message
news:13q4c3m12muvlbd@corp.supernews.com...
The Equality and Human Rights Commission, which was set up in October
and which is headed by Trevor Phillips, said it was committed to a
vision of fairness, but it was too early to comment on this case.
Oh sweet mother of mine another PC crusade, that's just what the world
wants.
I heard a really good interview on radio 4 last year where the speaker, Anne
Widdicome(?) made the point that people waving the PC flag don;t do it for
them selves but for others, who in most cases really don't give a rats arse
about it and wish they would shut up and stop embarrassing themselves.
I'm not arguing this for anyone else. I don't know what it's like in
the UK, but in the US, the emphasis on religion in scouting is
overt, and extremely annoying to someone who doesn't believe
in it.
It's nothing like the US, religion in the US seems to be embedded in the
national character, with public figures picked apart because they did
or didn't say "praise the lord" in the right place. I has a small
inkling of that in 2005 when I was visiting SD the family we were
staying with asked " what church do you want to go to tomorrow?" not if
we wanted to or point us to a synagoue or mosque, but an assumption that
we would be going to some church. That's not a question I would ever
expect to hear in the UK ( I didn't expect to hear it in the US either...)
Both my kids were in scouting, and I admit it wasn't so bad at
the Den/Troop level, but the minute you went to any larger
function, it was more like a revival meeting than anything I'd want
to be a part of.
Again not somethign you would see in the UK, apart from a few places (
some local to me) and there are a lot of leaders tryign to fight that
sort of presumption, (me included) not helped by muppets like merlyn and
the group whgich has just launched this attack.
I spend a lot of time trying to persaude parents , local authorities and
outside bodies that the SA is NOT white anglo saxon middle class and
christian. What I don't need is is what will happen now, headlines
saying things such as "SCOUTS BAN ATHEISTS" which will reinforce the
idea that you need to be "christian" or a "churchgoer" to attend and at
the same time gives encouragment to those that want to slip the lords
prayer into every Area Cub Funday.
The OP has misjudged the mood of URS, Scout leaders in the UK and the UK
population, if the aim of Scouting for all is to get rid of the 3G
questions in the BSA having a pop at the SA when they have already laid
two of the Gs to rest means that he nees his sights re- zeroing, badly
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| User: "Chimp" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 10:44:56 AM |
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On 1 Feb, 15:52, marc <initial.surn...@btinternet.com> wrote:
I spend a lot of time trying to persaude parents
authorities and outside bodies that the SA is NOT
white anglo saxon middle class and christian.
What I don't need is is what will happen now,
headlines saying things such as "SCOUTS BAN
ATHEISTS" which will reinforce the idea that
you need to be "christian" or a "churchgoer"
to attend [...]
Hi Marc,
If you don't want that sort of negative
headline, I suggest that the SA adopt an
official policy of equality of esteem between
believers and non-believers -- and, hey presto,
you will no longer get these negative headlines!
Afterall, this is what you're saying is de facto
practice already, so why not make it official
policy?
The reason you get this flack occasionally
is that you currently have a hypocritical
situuation of practice on the ground being
at variance with official policy. So fix it!
Update the policy -- you are, after all,
an organization that values honesty
and uprightness, aren't you?
Now, yes, this might cause some
issues with WOSM, but you'll find
that if you call their bluff then they'll
back down, and plenty of their members
will, in private, thank you for forcing the
issue. So show some leadership! Like
you did when you formed Scouting!
And don't criticize people like Merlyn
when it is they who are sticking up
for honesty, straightforwardness and
integrity.
So long as you have an official policy
of excluding atheist leaders, and of
preferring kids to be religious rather
than atheists, you are going to
encounter complaints such as the above.
So, if it has already changed on the
ground, then change the policy officially!
You never know, the publicity from this
might help you with your efforts to
persuade people that UK Scouting is
not "white anglo saxon middle class
and christian".
Chimp
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| User: "jcon" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 11:50:47 AM |
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On Feb 1, 9:52 am, marc <initial.surn...@btinternet.com> wrote:
jcon wrote:
On Jan 31, 4:31 pm, "Stephen Rainsbury" <step...@rainsbury.net-
spamnet- -> wrote:
"Brian Westley" <west...@visi.com> wrote in message
news:13q4c3m12muvlbd@corp.supernews.com...
The Equality and Human Rights Commission, which was set up in October
and which is headed by Trevor Phillips, said it was committed to a
vision of fairness, but it was too early to comment on this case.
Oh sweet mother of mine another PC crusade, that's just what the world
wants.
I heard a really good interview on radio 4 last year where the speaker, Anne
Widdicome(?) made the point that people waving the PC flag don;t do it for
them selves but for others, who in most cases really don't give a rats arse
about it and wish they would shut up and stop embarrassing themselves.
I'm not arguing this for anyone else. I don't know what it's like in
the UK, but in the US, the emphasis on religion in scouting is
overt, and extremely annoying to someone who doesn't believe
in it.
It's nothing like the US, religion in the US seems to be embedded in the
national character, with public figures picked apart because they did
or didn't say "praise the lord" in the right place. I has a small
inkling of that in 2005 when I was visiting SD the family we were
staying with asked " what church do you want to go to tomorrow?" not if
we wanted to or point us to a synagoue or mosque, but an assumption that
we would be going to some church. That's not a question I would ever
expect to hear in the UK ( I didn't expect to hear it in the US either...)
Both my kids were in scouting, and I admit it wasn't so bad at
the Den/Troop level, but the minute you went to any larger
function, it was more like a revival meeting than anything I'd want
to be a part of.
Again not somethign you would see in the UK, apart from a few places (
some local to me) and there are a lot of leaders tryign to fight that
sort of presumption, (me included) not helped by muppets like merlyn and
the group whgich has just launched this attack.
I spend a lot of time trying to persaude parents , local authorities and
outside bodies that the SA is NOT white anglo saxon middle class and
christian. What I don't need is is what will happen now, headlines
saying things such as "SCOUTS BAN ATHEISTS" which will reinforce the
idea that you need to be "christian" or a "churchgoer" to attend and at
the same time gives encouragment to those that want to slip the lords
prayer into every Area Cub Funday.
The OP has misjudged the mood of URS, Scout leaders in the UK and the UK
population, if the aim of Scouting for all is to get rid of the 3G
questions in the BSA having a pop at the SA when they have already laid
two of the Gs to rest means that he nees his sights re- zeroing, badly
I sympathize, and in fact I accept that I'm in a minority in my
country
and I don't get bent out of shape when the "G-word" pops up, in
scouting
or elsewhere. On the other hand, *the official, legal position*
of BSA is as follows
"Because of its views concerning the duty to God, Boy Scouts of
America believes that an atheist or agnostic is not an
appropriate
role model of the Scout Oath and Law for adolescent boys.
Because of Scouting's methods and beliefs, Scouting does not
accept atheists and agnostics as members or adult volunteer
leaders." (http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp)
and I don't see how I can take that as anything but a personal
insult.
I don't know if the UK has the same policy, but if they do, you
can't have it both ways. You can't say "We don't really take this
policy seriously", and then at the same time say "but there's
no way we'll ever change it".
This was even more ironic because I live in a fairly small town,
and I knew a thing or two about some of the people involved
in Scouts that the organization *did* consider "appropriate
role models", simply because they said they believed in God.
-jc
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| User: "Fred Goodwin, CMA" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 02:03:40 PM |
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On Feb 1, 11:50=A0am, jcon <cirej...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't know if the UK has the same policy, but if they do, you
can't have it both ways. =A0You can't say "We don't really take this
policy seriously", and then at the same time say "but there's
no way we'll ever change it".
I can't speak for the SA because I live in the US, but how is BSA's
official position any different than the view of the Founder himself?
No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys
His laws. So every Scout should have a religion ...
Religion seems a very simple thing: First: Love and
serve God. Second: Love and serve your neighbour.
Baden-Powell, Scouting for Boys
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| User: "Stephen Rainsbury -" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
02 Feb 2008 06:07:52 AM |
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"Fred Goodwin, CMA" <fgoodwin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:97029dde-9c66-427c-964b-bc847c2892fb@v46g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 1, 11:50 am, jcon <cirej...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't know if the UK has the same policy, but if they do, you
can't have it both ways. You can't say "We don't really take this
policy seriously", and then at the same time say "but there's
no way we'll ever change it".
I can't speak for the SA because I live in the US, but how is BSA's
official position any different than the view of the Founder himself?
Its 100 years different, just like our position on as lamps and syphilis.
The situation has changed to stay relevant to the 21st century.
Its like I believe he would have been a very strong e-mailer as he believed
very strongly in world wide communication to bring about peace... can you
imagine his facebook page!!!
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
www.agathoid.org.uk(remove this bit)
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| User: "marc" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 02:24:56 PM |
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Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:
On Feb 1, 11:50 am, jcon <cirej...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't know if the UK has the same policy, but if they do, you
can't have it both ways. You can't say "We don't really take this
policy seriously", and then at the same time say "but there's
no way we'll ever change it".
I can't speak for the SA because I live in the US, but how is BSA's
official position any different than the view of the Founder himself?
No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys
His laws. So every Scout should have a religion ...
Religion seems a very simple thing: First: Love and
serve God. Second: Love and serve your neighbour.
Baden-Powell, Scouting for Boys
BP also said of the Japanese "The Japanese are talking of forming some
troops also, and I hope they will. But they already get some of the
Scout training in their own schools and homes. They learn that their
first duty is to be loyal to their Emperor and country, and to make
themselves strong, brave, and manly, so that they can serve their
Emperor all the better. And every boy and every man carries out this
idea. We know this from their wonderful bravery in their war with Russia."
Would you agree that his views were that of a European gentleman of the
time and not to be kept in aspic as an example forever?
Or how about ...
" The natives, Filipinos, as they are called, of whom there are eight
millions, are a dark but civilised race, nice, but inclined to be rather
lazy, so they don't make as much out of their country as the more
energetic white men do."
or do you only want to quote BP when it's convienient?
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| User: "Fred Goodwin, CMA" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 03:48:32 PM |
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You didn't answer the question.
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| User: "Stephen Rainsbury -" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
02 Feb 2008 06:15:49 AM |
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"Fred Goodwin, CMA" <fgoodwin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:69436121-8fe4-4947-baef-
Kill file
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
www.agathoid.org.uk(remove this bit)
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| User: "jcon" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 03:50:14 PM |
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On Feb 1, 2:03 pm, "Fred Goodwin, CMA" <fgood...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Feb 1, 11:50 am, jcon <cirej...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't know if the UK has the same policy, but if they do, you
can't have it both ways. You can't say "We don't really take this
policy seriously", and then at the same time say "but there's
no way we'll ever change it".
I can't speak for the SA because I live in the US, but how is BSA's
official position any different than the view of the Founder himself?
No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys
His laws. So every Scout should have a religion ...
Religion seems a very simple thing: First: Love and
serve God. Second: Love and serve your neighbour.
Baden-Powell, Scouting for Boys
No different, but if that's the case, then they should admit they're
a religiously biased organization, and stop whining when they
don't get federal funds and accommodations.
On the other hand, Scouts don't adhere to all of Baden-Powell's
views. He was an open admirer of fascist regimes, and highly
recommended "Mein Kampf". And then there was his acknowledged
fascination with naked young boys...(and have you seen pictures
of his wife before and after the marriage. Issues, maybe???)
TImes changes. Plenty of people can still admire Thomas
Jefferson, and still not advocate owning slaves.
-jc
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
02 Feb 2008 05:08:36 PM |
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On the other hand, Scouts don't adhere to all of Baden-Powell's
views. =A0He was an open admirer of fascist regimes, and highly
recommended "Mein Kampf".
Just on this point he read the sanitised english version in 1939 and
made an ironic statement in his diary praiseing the bits Hitler had
lifted from B.Ps own writings. In the same statement he made it clear
he thought Hitler was a hyprocrite. Also read my life as a spy and
remember that both Jack Wilson and Mockler Ferryman were using their
work with the Scouts as a cover for their covert activities.
Some bits of B.P.s life may be dodggy others may not be what the seem.
Regards Tony
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| User: "marc" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 12:33:15 PM |
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jcon wrote:
The OP has misjudged the mood of URS, Scout leaders in the UK and the UK
population, if the aim of Scouting for all is to get rid of the 3G
questions in the BSA having a pop at the SA when they have already laid
two of the Gs to rest means that he nees his sights re- zeroing, badly
I sympathize, and in fact I accept that I'm in a minority in my
country
and I don't get bent out of shape when the "G-word" pops up, in
scouting
or elsewhere. On the other hand, *the official, legal position*
of BSA is as follows
"Because of its views concerning the duty to God, Boy Scouts of
America believes that an atheist or agnostic is not an
appropriate
role model of the Scout Oath and Law for adolescent boys.
Because of Scouting's methods and beliefs, Scouting does not
accept atheists and agnostics as members or adult volunteer
leaders." (http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp)
and I don't see how I can take that as anything but a personal
insult.
I don't know if the UK has the same policy,
It doesn't
" All Members of the Movement are encouraged to:
make every effort to progress in the understanding and
observance of the Promise to do their best to do their duty to God;
Belong to some religious body;
carry into daily practice what they profess. "
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/por/2006/chapter_2.htm
That's it "encouraged"!
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| User: "jcon" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 07:23:59 PM |
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On Feb 1, 12:33 pm, marc <initial.surn...@btinternet.com> wrote:
jcon wrote:
The OP has misjudged the mood of URS, Scout leaders in the UK and the UK
population, if the aim of Scouting for all is to get rid of the 3G
questions in the BSA having a pop at the SA when they have already laid
two of the Gs to rest means that he nees his sights re- zeroing, badly
I sympathize, and in fact I accept that I'm in a minority in my
country
and I don't get bent out of shape when the "G-word" pops up, in
scouting
or elsewhere. On the other hand, *the official, legal position*
of BSA is as follows
"Because of its views concerning the duty to God, Boy Scouts of
America believes that an atheist or agnostic is not an
appropriate
role model of the Scout Oath and Law for adolescent boys.
Because of Scouting's methods and beliefs, Scouting does not
accept atheists and agnostics as members or adult volunteer
leaders." (http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp)
and I don't see how I can take that as anything but a personal
insult.
I don't know if the UK has the same policy,
It doesn't
" All Members of the Movement are encouraged to:
make every effort to progress in the understanding and
observance of the Promise to do their best to do their duty to God;
Belong to some religious body;
carry into daily practice what they profess. "
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/por/2006/chapter_2.htm
That's it "encouraged"!
For the record, I wouldn't have a problem with that version.
Well, I would have a problem with it, but I'd understand that
life is like that sometimes.
The spirit is very different from the American version.
-jc
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 01:14:54 PM |
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marc <initial.surname@btinternet.com> writes:
jcon wrote:
On Jan 31, 4:31 pm, "Stephen Rainsbury" <step...@rainsbury.net-
spamnet- -> wrote:
"Brian Westley" <west...@visi.com> wrote in message
news:13q4c3m12muvlbd@corp.supernews.com...
The Equality and Human Rights Commission, which was set up in October
and which is headed by Trevor Phillips, said it was committed to a
vision of fairness, but it was too early to comment on this case.
Oh sweet mother of mine another PC crusade, that's just what the world
wants.
I heard a really good interview on radio 4 last year where the speaker, Anne
Widdicome(?) made the point that people waving the PC flag don;t do it for
them selves but for others, who in most cases really don't give a rats arse
about it and wish they would shut up and stop embarrassing themselves.
I'm not arguing this for anyone else. I don't know what it's like in
the UK, but in the US, the emphasis on religion in scouting is
overt, and extremely annoying to someone who doesn't believe
in it.
It's nothing like the US, religion in the US seems to be embedded in the
national character, with public figures picked apart because they did
or didn't say "praise the lord" in the right place. I has a small
inkling of that in 2005 when I was visiting SD the family we were
staying with asked " what church do you want to go to tomorrow?" not if
we wanted to or point us to a synagoue or mosque, but an assumption that
we would be going to some church. That's not a question I would ever
expect to hear in the UK ( I didn't expect to hear it in the US either...)
Both my kids were in scouting, and I admit it wasn't so bad at
the Den/Troop level, but the minute you went to any larger
function, it was more like a revival meeting than anything I'd want
to be a part of.
Again not somethign you would see in the UK, apart from a few places (
some local to me) and there are a lot of leaders tryign to fight that
sort of presumption, (me included) not helped by muppets like merlyn and
the group whgich has just launched this attack.
Yes, we aren't helping people ignore problems with discrimination
against atheists. Boo-fucking-hoo.
I spend a lot of time trying to persaude parents , local authorities and
outside bodies that the SA is NOT white anglo saxon middle class and
christian. What I don't need is is what will happen now, headlines
saying things such as "SCOUTS BAN ATHEISTS" which will reinforce the
idea that you need to be "christian" or a "churchgoer" to attend and at
the same time gives encouragment to those that want to slip the lords
prayer into every Area Cub Funday.
So, think it's about time you figured out that ignoring problems
isn't always the best way to deal with them?
The OP has misjudged the mood of URS, Scout leaders in the UK and the UK
population, if the aim of Scouting for all is to get rid of the 3G
questions in the BSA having a pop at the SA when they have already laid
two of the Gs to rest means that he nees his sights re- zeroing, badly
Scouting For All has nothing to do with this. It's a couple of UK
atheist organisations that started it.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
.
|
|
|
| User: "marc" |
|
| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 02:03:22 PM |
|
|
Brian Westley wrote:
marc <initial.surname@btinternet.com> writes:
jcon wrote:
On Jan 31, 4:31 pm, "Stephen Rainsbury" <step...@rainsbury.net-
spamnet- -> wrote:
"Brian Westley" <west...@visi.com> wrote in message
news:13q4c3m12muvlbd@corp.supernews.com...
The Equality and Human Rights Commission, which was set up in October
and which is headed by Trevor Phillips, said it was committed to a
vision of fairness, but it was too early to comment on this case.
Oh sweet mother of mine another PC crusade, that's just what the world
wants.
I heard a really good interview on radio 4 last year where the speaker, Anne
Widdicome(?) made the point that people waving the PC flag don;t do it for
them selves but for others, who in most cases really don't give a rats arse
about it and wish they would shut up and stop embarrassing themselves.
I'm not arguing this for anyone else. I don't know what it's like in
the UK, but in the US, the emphasis on religion in scouting is
overt, and extremely annoying to someone who doesn't believe
in it.
It's nothing like the US, religion in the US seems to be embedded in the
national character, with public figures picked apart because they did
or didn't say "praise the lord" in the right place. I has a small
inkling of that in 2005 when I was visiting SD the family we were
staying with asked " what church do you want to go to tomorrow?" not if
we wanted to or point us to a synagoue or mosque, but an assumption that
we would be going to some church. That's not a question I would ever
expect to hear in the UK ( I didn't expect to hear it in the US either...)
Both my kids were in scouting, and I admit it wasn't so bad at
the Den/Troop level, but the minute you went to any larger
function, it was more like a revival meeting than anything I'd want
to be a part of.
Again not somethign you would see in the UK, apart from a few places (
some local to me) and there are a lot of leaders tryign to fight that
sort of presumption, (me included) not helped by muppets like merlyn and
the group whgich has just launched this attack.
Yes, we aren't helping people ignore problems with discrimination
against atheists. Boo-fucking-hoo.
You aren't helping those who are trying to further your own aims.
Sometimes you need to think holistically and strategically not something
that merkins have been noted for in the past.
I spend a lot of time trying to persaude parents , local authorities and
outside bodies that the SA is NOT white anglo saxon middle class and
christian. What I don't need is is what will happen now, headlines
saying things such as "SCOUTS BAN ATHEISTS" which will reinforce the
idea that you need to be "christian" or a "churchgoer" to attend and at
the same time gives encouragment to those that want to slip the lords
prayer into every Area Cub Funday.
So, think it's about time you figured out that ignoring problems
isn't always the best way to deal with them?
I'm not ignoring them, I'm fighting the fights that matter, that I can
win and that will , combined with others in the grassroots achieve an
aim far faster than the grandstanding of your sort.
The OP has misjudged the mood of URS, Scout leaders in the UK and the UK
population, if the aim of Scouting for all is to get rid of the 3G
questions in the BSA having a pop at the SA when they have already laid
two of the Gs to rest means that he nees his sights re- zeroing, badly
Scouting For All has nothing to do with this. It's a couple of UK
atheist organisations that started it.
In these forums , you started it.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Brian Westley" |
|
| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 02:10:32 PM |
|
|
marc <initial.surname@btinternet.com> writes:
Brian Westley wrote:
marc <initial.surname@btinternet.com> writes:
jcon wrote:
On Jan 31, 4:31 pm, "Stephen Rainsbury" <step...@rainsbury.net-
spamnet- -> wrote:
"Brian Westley" <west...@visi.com> wrote in message
news:13q4c3m12muvlbd@corp.supernews.com...
The Equality and Human Rights Commission, which was set up in October
and which is headed by Trevor Phillips, said it was committed to a
vision of fairness, but it was too early to comment on this case.
Oh sweet mother of mine another PC crusade, that's just what the world
wants.
I heard a really good interview on radio 4 last year where the speaker, Anne
Widdicome(?) made the point that people waving the PC flag don;t do it for
them selves but for others, who in most cases really don't give a rats arse
about it and wish they would shut up and stop embarrassing themselves.
I'm not arguing this for anyone else. I don't know what it's like in
the UK, but in the US, the emphasis on religion in scouting is
overt, and extremely annoying to someone who doesn't believe
in it.
It's nothing like the US, religion in the US seems to be embedded in the
national character, with public figures picked apart because they did
or didn't say "praise the lord" in the right place. I has a small
inkling of that in 2005 when I was visiting SD the family we were
staying with asked " what church do you want to go to tomorrow?" not if
we wanted to or point us to a synagoue or mosque, but an assumption that
we would be going to some church. That's not a question I would ever
expect to hear in the UK ( I didn't expect to hear it in the US either...)
Both my kids were in scouting, and I admit it wasn't so bad at
the Den/Troop level, but the minute you went to any larger
function, it was more like a revival meeting than anything I'd want
to be a part of.
Again not somethign you would see in the UK, apart from a few places (
some local to me) and there are a lot of leaders tryign to fight that
sort of presumption, (me included) not helped by muppets like merlyn and
the group whgich has just launched this attack.
Yes, we aren't helping people ignore problems with discrimination
against atheists. Boo-fucking-hoo.
You aren't helping those who are trying to further your own aims.
In your opinion. Not in mine.
Sometimes you need to think holistically and strategically not something
that merkins have been noted for in the past.
And your strategy is what, continue to ignore the problem?
I spend a lot of time trying to persaude parents , local authorities and
outside bodies that the SA is NOT white anglo saxon middle class and
christian. What I don't need is is what will happen now, headlines
saying things such as "SCOUTS BAN ATHEISTS" which will reinforce the
idea that you need to be "christian" or a "churchgoer" to attend and at
the same time gives encouragment to those that want to slip the lords
prayer into every Area Cub Funday.
So, think it's about time you figured out that ignoring problems
isn't always the best way to deal with them?
I'm not ignoring them, I'm fighting the fights that matter, that I can
win and that will , combined with others in the grassroots achieve an
aim far faster than the grandstanding of your sort.
Well, so far all I've seen is your repeated insistence that it
not be talked about.
The OP has misjudged the mood of URS, Scout leaders in the UK and the UK
population, if the aim of Scouting for all is to get rid of the 3G
questions in the BSA having a pop at the SA when they have already laid
two of the Gs to rest means that he nees his sights re- zeroing, badly
Scouting For All has nothing to do with this. It's a couple of UK
atheist organisations that started it.
In these forums , you started it.
So what?
---
Merlyn LeRoy
.
|
|
|
| User: "marc" |
|
| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 02:50:05 PM |
|
|
Brian Westley wrote:
Again not somethign you would see in the UK, apart from a few places (
some local to me) and there are a lot of leaders tryign to fight that
sort of presumption, (me included) not helped by muppets like merlyn and
the group whgich has just launched this attack.
Yes, we aren't helping people ignore problems with discrimination
against atheists. Boo-fucking-hoo.
You aren't helping those who are trying to further your own aims.
In your opinion. Not in mine.
Your opinion is irrelevant to my locale.
Sometimes you need to think holistically and strategically not something
that merkins have been noted for in the past.
And your strategy is what, continue to ignore the problem?
The big lie? Keep repeating that I'm ignoring the problem and hope that
someone will believe it?
What I'm doing is running a Cub pack and Scout troop that has no element
of prayers, does not attend religous ceremonies, complains when the
District or Area attempts to have a prayer in an event. As a leader
trainer I stop urban myths about religion from being perpetuated, last
month I had a trainee leader who presented me with a sample programme
that included at the end "prayers". When I asked about this section of
the programme she told me that :-
a)She thought that there had to be a prayer in the programme.
b) The Cub Leader had complained to the GSL that she hadn't been having
a prayer, so had started them.
I was able to show her that prayers were not needed, and she has decided
that in future she won't include them in her programmes.
Now who do you think is having more effect in furthering your aims,
me, stopping it where it is happening and making sure that new leaders
aren't fed the church line, or you and you UK cohorts , making a media
splash that is going to fail because of it's inbuilt inconsistancies?
I spend a lot of time trying to persaude parents , local authorities and
outside bodies that the SA is NOT white anglo saxon middle class and
christian. What I don't need is is what will happen now, headlines
saying things such as "SCOUTS BAN ATHEISTS" which will reinforce the
idea that you need to be "christian" or a "churchgoer" to attend and at
the same time gives encouragment to those that want to slip the lords
prayer into every Area Cub Funday.
So, think it's about time you figured out that ignoring problems
isn't always the best way to deal with them?
I'm not ignoring them, I'm fighting the fights that matter, that I can
win and that will , combined with others in the grassroots achieve an
aim far faster than the grandstanding of your sort.
Well, so far all I've seen is your repeated insistence that it
not be talked about.
Not be talked about by you, a prat that doesn't know what he's talking
about, not to be talked about in scouting.issues that will bring in all
the BSA slanted merkin muppets who have trouble understanding why anyone
would ever need a passport let alone have one themselves, not to be
talked about by people who will have no idea of what's happening , why,
how, and won't even care, as long as they get their way.
The OP has misjudged the mood of URS, Scout leaders in the UK and the UK
population, if the aim of Scouting for all is to get rid of the 3G
questions in the BSA having a pop at the SA when they have already laid
two of the Gs to rest means that he nees his sights re- zeroing, badly
Scouting For All has nothing to do with this. It's a couple of UK
atheist organisations that started it.
In these forums , you started it.
So what?
Is that really the best you can do? I have tried to talk my District out
of running a yearly public speaking/debating contest for Cubs, one of
their arguments is that it would help Cubs in later life. I can now
print out your arguments and use them to prove that adults can survive
in life with only the minimal debating skills of the playground.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Brian Westley" |
|
| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 03:35:33 PM |
|
|
marc <initial.surname@btinternet.com> writes:
Brian Westley wrote:
Again not somethign you would see in the UK, apart from a few places (
some local to me) and there are a lot of leaders tryign to fight that
sort of presumption, (me included) not helped by muppets like merlyn and
the group whgich has just launched this attack.
Yes, we aren't helping people ignore problems with discrimination
against atheists. Boo-fucking-hoo.
You aren't helping those who are trying to further your own aims.
In your opinion. Not in mine.
Your opinion is irrelevant to my locale.
Well, now you aren't even making sense. First, you say how I'm not
helping (which is obviously a matter of opinion), and now you've
got some lame non-comeback that my opinion doesn't matter to your
locale, as if opinions are tied to geography.
Sometimes you need to think holistically and strategically not something
that merkins have been noted for in the past.
And your strategy is what, continue to ignore the problem?
The big lie? Keep repeating that I'm ignoring the problem and hope that
someone will believe it?
You certainly seem to be ignoring it.
What I'm doing is running a Cub pack and Scout troop that has no element
of prayers, does not attend religous ceremonies, complains when the
District or Area attempts to have a prayer in an event.
There were plenty of BSA units before the Dale decision that
allowed gays and/or atheists, but that didn't do much to
affect the outcome.
As a leader
trainer I stop urban myths about religion from being perpetuated, last
month I had a trainee leader who presented me with a sample programme
that included at the end "prayers". When I asked about this section of
the programme she told me that :-
a)She thought that there had to be a prayer in the programme.
b) The Cub Leader had complained to the GSL that she hadn't been having
a prayer, so had started them.
I was able to show her that prayers were not needed, and she has decided
that in future she won't include them in her programmes.
Now who do you think is having more effect in furthering your aims,
me, stopping it where it is happening and making sure that new leaders
aren't fed the church line, or you and you UK cohorts , making a media
splash that is going to fail because of it's inbuilt inconsistancies?
Me and my "cohorts," of course. Your efforts aren't affecting
SA national policy at all.
I spend a lot of time trying to persaude parents , local authorities and
outside bodies that the SA is NOT white anglo saxon middle class and
christian. What I don't need is is what will happen now, headlines
saying things such as "SCOUTS BAN ATHEISTS" which will reinforce the
idea that you need to be "christian" or a "churchgoer" to attend and at
the same time gives encouragment to those that want to slip the lords
prayer into every Area Cub Funday.
So, think it's about time you figured out that ignoring problems
isn't always the best way to deal with them?
I'm not ignoring them, I'm fighting the fights that matter, that I can
win and that will , combined with others in the grassroots achieve an
aim far faster than the grandstanding of your sort.
Well, so far all I've seen is your repeated insistence that it
not be talked about.
Not be talked about by you, a prat that doesn't know what he's talking
about, not to be talked about in scouting.issues that will bring in all
the BSA slanted merkin muppets who have trouble understanding why anyone
would ever need a passport let alone have one themselves, not to be
talked about by people who will have no idea of what's happening , why,
how, and won't even care, as long as they get their way.
Make sure you run and hide when headlines read "SCOUTS BAN ATHEISTS."
And make sure you blame the atheists, and not the people who set the
policies.
The OP has misjudged the mood of URS, Scout leaders in the UK and the UK
population, if the aim of Scouting for all is to get rid of the 3G
questions in the BSA having a pop at the SA when they have already laid
two of the Gs to rest means that he nees his sights re- zeroing, badly
Scouting For All has nothing to do with this. It's a couple of UK
atheist organisations that started it.
In these forums , you started it.
So what?
Is that really the best you can do?
Do about what? You last remark was just "you started it." Yes, I
copied part of a newspaper article and added my opinion. What about it?
I have tried to talk my District out
of running a yearly public speaking/debating contest for Cubs, one of
their arguments is that it would help Cubs in later life. I can now
print out your arguments and use them to prove that adults can survive
in life with only the minimal debating skills of the playground.
"You started it!"
Yeah, that's never used on playgrounds.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
.
|
|
|
| User: "Stephen Rainsbury -" |
|
| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
02 Feb 2008 06:15:09 AM |
|
|
Bored now. Kill file.
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
www.agathoid.org.uk(remove this bit)
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "marc" |
|
| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 03:52:52 PM |
|
|
Brian Westley wrote:
marc <initial.surname@btinternet.com> writes:
Brian Westley wrote:
Again not somethign you would see in the UK, apart from a few places (
some local to me) and there are a lot of leaders tryign to fight that
sort of presumption, (me included) not helped by muppets like merlyn and
the group whgich has just launched this attack.
Yes, we aren't helping people ignore problems with discrimination
against atheists. Boo-fucking-hoo.
You aren't helping those who are trying to further your own aims.
In your opinion. Not in mine.
Your opinion is irrelevant to my locale.
Well, now you aren't even making sense. First, you say how I'm not
helping (which is obviously a matter of opinion), and now you've
got some lame non-comeback that my opinion doesn't matter to your
locale, as if opinions are tied to geography.
What's your opinion on whether Dunraven Place should have it's
flagstones replaced? Whatever it is I doubt that Bridgend County Borough
Council will care what it is, on the other hand they have just sent me a
card for me to return with my opinion. Of course opinions are tied to
geography, if you don't realise that you're dumber than I took you to be.
Sometimes you need to think holistically and strategically not something
that merkins have been noted for in the past.
And your strategy is what, continue to ignore the problem?
The big lie? Keep repeating that I'm ignoring the problem and hope that
someone will believe it?
You certainly seem to be ignoring it.
Your proof of that is? Just because everyone doesn't run around
panicking when you turn up with your chicken little speech doesn't mean
they are ignoring anything except you.
What I'm doing is running a Cub pack and Scout troop that has no element
of prayers, does not attend religous ceremonies, complains when the
District or Area attempts to have a prayer in an event.
There were plenty of BSA units before the Dale decision that
allowed gays and/or atheists, but that didn't do much to
affect the outcome.
Irrelevant, I don't belong to the BSA and wouldn't want to be.
As a leader
trainer I stop urban myths about religion from being perpetuated, last
month I had a trainee leader who presented me with a sample programme
that included at the end "prayers". When I asked about this section of
the programme she told me that :-
a)She thought that there had to be a prayer in the programme.
b) The Cub Leader had complained to the GSL that she hadn't been having
a prayer, so had started them.
I was able to show her that prayers were not needed, and she has decided
that in future she won't include them in her programmes.
Now who do you think is having more effect in furthering your aims,
me, stopping it where it is happening and making sure that new leaders
aren't fed the church line, or you and you UK cohorts , making a media
splash that is going to fail because of it's inbuilt inconsistancies?
Me and my "cohorts," of course.
Of course, that would be your opinion.
Your efforts aren't affecting
SA national policy at all.
One less leader thinking prayers are obligatory in Scouting, how many
have you convinced?
I spend a lot of time trying to persaude parents , local authorities and
outside bodies that the SA is NOT white anglo saxon middle class and
christian. What I don't need is is what will happen now, headlines
saying things such as "SCOUTS BAN ATHEISTS" which will reinforce the
idea that you need to be "christian" or a "churchgoer" to attend and at
the same time gives encouragment to those that want to slip the lords
prayer into every Area Cub Funday.
So, think it's about time you figured out that ignoring problems
isn't always the best way to deal with them?
I'm not ignoring them, I'm fighting the fights that matter, that I can
win and that will , combined with others in the grassroots achieve an
aim far faster than the grandstanding of your sort.
Well, so far all I've seen is your repeated insistence that it
not be talked about.
Not be talked about by you, a prat that doesn't know what he's talking
about, not to be talked about in scouting.issues that will bring in all
the BSA slanted merkin muppets who have trouble understanding why anyone
would ever need a passport let alone have one themselves, not to be
talked about by people who will have no idea of what's happening , why,
how, and won't even care, as long as they get their way.
Make sure you run and hide when headlines read "SCOUTS BAN ATHEISTS."
And make sure you blame the atheists, and not the people who set the
policies.
Next week if a parent turns up who now thinks that their child has to
have a faith because of reading the Torygraph , (or worse after hearing
someone elses version of what they thought they read) that will because
of the atheists not because of the policies, the policies won't have
changed, but the public perceptions will have.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Stephen Rainsbury -" |
|
| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
02 Feb 2008 06:16:41 AM |
|
|
"marc" <initial.surname@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:dMOdncwPTpEhCT7anZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com...
Not kill filed
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
www.agathoid.org.uk(remove this bit)
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Brian Westley" |
|
| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 04:06:12 PM |
|
|
marc <initial.surname@btinternet.com> writes:
Brian Westley wrote:
marc <initial.surname@btinternet.com> writes:
Brian Westley wrote:
Again not somethign you would see in the UK, apart from a few places (
some local to me) and there are a lot of leaders tryign to fight that
sort of presumption, (me included) not helped by muppets like merlyn and
the group whgich has just launched this attack.
Yes, we aren't helping people ignore problems with discrimination
against atheists. Boo-fucking-hoo.
You aren't helping those who are trying to further your own aims.
In your opinion. Not in mine.
Your opinion is irrelevant to my locale.
Well, now you aren't even making sense. First, you say how I'm not
helping (which is obviously a matter of opinion), and now you've
got some lame non-comeback that my opinion doesn't matter to your
locale, as if opinions are tied to geography.
What's your opinion on whether Dunraven Place should have it's
flagstones replaced? Whatever it is I doubt that Bridgend County Borough
Council will care what it is, on the other hand they have just sent me a
card for me to return with my opinion. Of course opinions are tied to
geography, if you don't realise that you're dumber than I took you to be.
Oh, no, moron. Geography doesn't matter in a usenet discussion.
Sometimes you need to think holistically and strategically not something
that merkins have been noted for in the past.
And your strategy is what, continue to ignore the problem?
The big lie? Keep repeating that I'm ignoring the problem and hope that
someone will believe it?
You certainly seem to be ignoring it.
Your proof of that is? Just because everyone doesn't run around
panicking when you turn up with your chicken little speech doesn't mean
they are ignoring anything except you.
Well, you certainly aren't ignoring ME, but I haven't seen
anything on your part that you're doing anything concerning
the SA's position on atheists.
What I'm doing is running a Cub pack and Scout troop that has no element
of prayers, does not attend religous ceremonies, complains when the
District or Area attempts to have a prayer in an event.
There were plenty of BSA units before the Dale decision that
allowed gays and/or atheists, but that didn't do much to
affect the outcome.
Irrelevant, I don't belong to the BSA and wouldn't want to be.
Well, I can see how you would miss the point and think my
example irrelevant.
As a leader
trainer I stop urban myths about religion from being perpetuated, last
month I had a trainee leader who presented me with a sample programme
that included at the end "prayers". When I asked about this section of
the programme she told me that :-
a)She thought that there had to be a prayer in the programme.
b) The Cub Leader had complained to the GSL that she hadn't been having
a prayer, so had started them.
I was able to show her that prayers were not needed, and she has decided
that in future she won't include them in her programmes.
Now who do you think is having more effect in furthering your aims,
me, stopping it where it is happening and making sure that new leaders
aren't fed the church line, or you and you UK cohorts , making a media
splash that is going to fail because of it's inbuilt inconsistancies?
Me and my "cohorts," of course.
Of course, that would be your opinion.
Yep, and since we are separated by geography, that somehow means
that I get to ignore your opinion. Or something.
Your efforts aren't affecting
SA national policy at all.
I never said MY efforts were. However, the two atheist organisations
in the UK (my "cohorts") are.
One less leader thinking prayers are obligatory in Scouting, how many
have you convinced?
None. How do your efforts change official national policy on atheists?
I spend a lot of time trying to persaude parents , local authorities and
outside bodies that the SA is NOT white anglo saxon middle class and
christian. What I don't need is is what will happen now, headlines
saying things such as "SCOUTS BAN ATHEISTS" which will reinforce the
idea that you need to be "christian" or a "churchgoer" to attend and at
the same time gives encouragment to those that want to slip the lords
prayer into every Area Cub Funday.
So, think it's about time you figured out that ignoring problems
isn't always the best way to deal with them?
I'm not ignoring them, I'm fighting the fights that matter, that I can
win and that will , combined with others in the grassroots achieve an
aim far faster than the grandstanding of your sort.
Well, so far all I've seen is your repeated insistence that it
not be talked about.
Not be talked about by you, a prat that doesn't know what he's talking
about, not to be talked about in scouting.issues that will bring in all
the BSA slanted merkin muppets who have trouble understanding why anyone
would ever need a passport let alone have one themselves, not to be
talked about by people who will have no idea of what's happening , why,
how, and won't even care, as long as they get their way.
Make sure you run and hide when headlines read "SCOUTS BAN ATHEISTS."
And make sure you blame the atheists, and not the people who set the
policies.
Next week if a parent turns up who now thinks that their child has to
have a faith because of reading the Torygraph , (or worse after hearing
someone elses version of what they thought they read) that will because
of the atheists not because of the policies, the policies won't have
changed, but the public perceptions will have.
so maybe you'd better get the word out there and stop whining.
And maybe get the SA to change their stance on atheists, unless
you prefer their current one.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "marc" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 04:12:50 PM |
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Brian Westley wrote: to be.
Oh, no, moron. Geography doesn't matter in a usenet discussion.
Well, you certainly aren't ignoring ME, but I haven't seen
anything on your part that you're doing anything concerning
the SA's position on atheists.
Yep, and since we are separated by geography, that somehow means
that I get to ignore your opinion. Or something.
so maybe you'd better get the word out there and stop whining.
You don't work in advertising or sales do you?
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| User: "Chris Atkinson" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 04:25:43 PM |
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In message <13q6rte4gp0vd1b@corp.supernews.com>, Brian Westley
<westley@visi.com> writes
[lots snipped here]
Yes, we aren't helping people ignore problems with discrimination
against atheists. Boo-fucking-hoo.
[and even more snipped]
Brian or Merlyn or whoever you are (it does seems strange that you can't
decide), have you not noticed that (i) you don't really understand what
makes us in the UK tick and (ii) you have more than outstayed your
welcome? I agree that we don't have to read your words, but surely good
manners suggests that you don't have to keep going on and on in our UK
Scouting space.
(Okay, whatever has 'good manners' got to do with usenet? Well to an
outsider it may seem an outdated concept, but in this ng we do try to
be civilised and friendly. Perhaps it's because we're mainly Scouts, and
subscribe to and do our best to live by the Scout Law ).
It's not clear if you are or were a Scout - of some sort or other - but,
whatever you are, you must have become aware that we conduct this ng in
a manner that is clearly alien to you. Yes, we get a wee bit heated at
times. But you have become increasingly objectionable in tone and now
your language is starting to slip. There's really no need; it
irredeemably lessens the thrust of any argument, and of course lowers
the standard of debate.
You came knocking on our door, we've listened reasonably politely to
you, and thank you for your views - some were interesting and thought
provoking (though your apparent need to continually refer to Jews was a
tad bizarre).
But now it's time to take your foot out of our door, move on, and take
your message elsewhere before its good points are completely submerged
by what has already become tiresome repetition.
Chris A.
--
Chris Atkinson
christopher.atkinson43@ntlworld.com
Things are more like they are now than they ever were before.
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 05:07:37 PM |
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Chris Atkinson <christopher.atkinson43@ntlworld.com> writes:
In message <13q6rte4gp0vd1b@corp.supernews.com>, Brian Westley
<westley@visi.com> writes
[lots snipped here]
Yes, we aren't helping people ignore problems with discrimination
against atheists. Boo-fucking-hoo.
[and even more snipped]
Brian or Merlyn or whoever you are (it does seems strange that you can't
decide), have you not noticed that (i) you don't really understand what
makes us in the UK tick
People keep saying that as if the actions of the British Humanist
Association and the National Secular Society somehow aren't made
up of people in the UK.
and (ii) you have more than outstayed your
welcome?
You're free to ***** anytime and leave this thread.
I agree that we don't have to read your words, but surely good
manners suggests that you don't have to keep going on and on in our UK
Scouting space.
You're still free to ***** anytime and leave this thread.
(Okay, whatever has 'good manners' got to do with usenet? Well to an
outsider it may seem an outdated concept, but in this ng we do try to
be civilised and friendly. Perhaps it's because we're mainly Scouts, and
subscribe to and do our best to live by the Scout Law ).
I wouldn't say you do.
It's not clear if you are or were a Scout - of some sort or other - but,
whatever you are, you must have become aware that we conduct this ng in
a manner that is clearly alien to you. Yes, we get a wee bit heated at
times. But you have become increasingly objectionable in tone and now
your language is starting to slip. There's really no need; it
irredeemably lessens the thrust of any argument, and of course lowers
the standard of debate.
You're STILL free to ***** anytime and leave this thread.
You came knocking on our door, we've listened reasonably politely to
you, and thank you for your views - some were interesting and thought
provoking (though your apparent need to continually refer to Jews was a
tad bizarre).
Only because most people on usenet don't seem to have the
faintest idea what analogies are or what they are for.
But now it's time to take your foot out of our door, move on, and take
your message elsewhere before its good points are completely submerged
by what has already become tiresome repetition.
Well, you can ***** too. You've been saying the same to me,
only with polite language, which (in my humble, humble opinion)
only makes it more annoying. I prefer a straight "*****."
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "marc" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 05:21:27 PM |
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Brian Westley wrote:
Well, you can ***** too. You've been saying the same to me,
only with polite language, which (in my humble, humble opinion)
only makes it more annoying. I prefer a straight "*****."
This work you do for Scouting for All, it's not in the PR dept is it?
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
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| Title: Re: scout oath is religious discrimination |
01 Feb 2008 06:19:57 PM |
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marc <initial.surname@btinternet.com> writes:
Brian Westley wrote:
Well, you can ***** too. You've been saying the same to me,
only with polite language, which (in my humble, humble opinion)
only makes it more annoying. I prefer a straight "*****."
This work you do for Scouting for All, it's not in the PR dept is it?
Can't get your web browser to work? Try pushing more buttons.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "marc" |
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| Title: Re: UK: scout oath is religious discrimination |
31 Jan 2008 02:44:33 PM |
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Brian Westley wrote:
I think it's pretty clear-cut that requiring a god-oath IS
religious discrimination, and (like in the US) the core issue is
whether the Scout Association can practice religious discrimination,
and that if it can, that it properly identify itself as a religious
organisation that requires members to believe in a god (or maybe
more):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/01/31/nscout131.xml
Scout's oath 'is religious discrimination'
Good try at rabble rousing but can you keep it in your own cesspit please?
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