Religions > Atheism > Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....?
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Rod" |
| Date: |
09 May 2006 07:58:28 PM |
| Object: |
Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
Questions I have about GOD:
Why, if God is all powerfull and all mercifull, does He allow suffering,
violence
and murder to ocurr on earth ?
How is it that God demands love and belief in Him while allowing His
creation
to decay and His children to be killed ?
What kind of father sits idlely by and watches His children be murdered or
tortured ?
Why is it that if we are all born equal, and God is a perfect creator, do we
have
children and adults that are deformed ?
Why, if God loves us so deeply, does He not intervene in our affairs ?
How can God expect His followers to love Him when He gives them an
ultimatum'
of love Me of I will destroy you eventually ?
What man is such a fool that he "loves" someone that threatens his life,
even when
he knows he doesn't have a choice ?
Is it truly love, or a fake born of extortion ?
Rod
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| User: "pacifico" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
14 May 2006 01:33:26 PM |
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"Rod" <freelance74601@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1147222385_3017@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
Questions I have about GOD:
Why, if God is all powerfull and all mercifull, does He allow suffering,
violence
and murder to ocurr on earth ?
How is it that God demands love and belief in Him while allowing His
creation
to decay and His children to be killed ?
You are right, Rod. There is suffering on earth. And God allows it, though
He could
stop it. Your question is not easy to answer. But there will be an answer:
This life
is not the end. There will be a better life in a better world. So God sent
His son
to lead us from this world into a better world. Our 'low-level live' lasts
maybe
80 years. The real life that God will give us will last eternally.
What kind of father sits idlely by and watches His children be murdered or
tortured ?
Why is it that if we are all born equal, and God is a perfect creator, do
we
have
children and adults that are deformed ?
I'm sure: God doesn't want us to suffer. And I feel He suffers with us. God
let men
torture and murder His own son Jesus Christ. That's cruel, but it was'nt in
vain:
Many people have been saved. Saved because Jesus takes away the sin of the
world.
And saved because people who watch Jesus and other people suffering feel
compassion
and try to change their way of life from selfish to loving.
Jesus became one of us to make us able to become like Him. In order to
become
similar to Him we have to learn to love each other like He loves us. That's
our
job in this life. Poverty, disease, crime and disaster give us the
opportunity to
learn to love more: We feel compassion with the victims and we want to help
them.
We can pray for them. We can give them aid. So we can step forward on our
way to overcome our selfishness and our conflicts that separate us from God
and from our neighbour.
Why, if God loves us so deeply, does He not intervene in our affairs ?
He has already intervened: He sent His son Jesus Christ to save us. And He
will
intervene again: By His grace He will help us to come to a better live. God
will
bring people who are willing to overcome this 'low-level world' into a
better world
that you can call heaven or real life.
However, why does God not intervene more often. I wish He would. But I also
know
that: If god did everything for us, what would be our job? We were useless
in this world. But we mustn't be useless. Only people who live this
low-level
life in a fruitful way will be able to rise to the higher level. God gives
us
the possibility to make this world a better place. And I try to do so. So I
give
aid to the poor and I pray for the sick. I try to convince other people that
war
is not the answer. I try to help those who need me. And so should you. But I
know
I should do more for suffering people. I could give more and do more. And
many
people could do much more. So we shouldn't blame God for not doing more.
How can God expect His followers to love Him when He gives them an
ultimatum'
of love Me of I will destroy you eventually ?
What man is such a fool that he "loves" someone that threatens his life,
even when
he knows he doesn't have a choice ?
I love God. But I don't think I'm a fool. If God threatened my life, I could
hardly
love Him. But he doesn't do that. He does the opposite: He sent his son to
prevent
us from going down to destruction. Jesus came from Paradise into our hell.
He lived
with us and suffered with us. He was killed by us. He died for us. He came
to us in
order to make us able to come to Him.
Our present life is threatened by many dangers. And sooner or later it will
come to
an end. By His grace God gives us hope to pass from what we call life to
what is
real life. That real life will never end.
Is it truly love, or a fake born of extortion ?
If God didn't love us, He wouldn't have sent His son to us. He wouldn't have
allowed
us to kill his son Jesus Christ. He would have destroyed us. Nobody of us is
perfect.
God's good creation has been spoilt. If God didn't love us, He would
probably create
a better world without us. But he loves us. So He creates a better world
together
with us. He wants us to share his real life. That's real love.
God bless you!
pacifico
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| User: "Rod" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
14 May 2006 05:34:07 PM |
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On 14-May-2006, "pacifico" <pacifico@freenet.de> wrote while in a state of
lame stupor:
If God didn't love us, He wouldn't have sent His son to us. He wouldn't
have
allowed
us to kill his son Jesus Christ. He would have destroyed us. Nobody of us
is
perfect.
God's good creation has been spoilt. If God didn't love us, He would
probably create
a better world without us. But he loves us. So He creates a better world
together
with us. He wants us to share his real life. That's real love.
God bless you!
pacifico
Thanks for the response.
Rod
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
16 May 2006 10:34:02 PM |
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On Sun, 14 May 2006 20:33:26 +0200, "pacifico" <pacifico@freenet.de> wrote:
"Rod" <freelance74601@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1147222385_3017@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
Questions I have about GOD:
Why, if God is all powerfull and all mercifull, does He allow suffering,
violence and murder to ocurr on earth ?
How is it that God demands love and belief in Him while allowing His
creation to decay and His children to be killed ?
You are right, Rod. There is suffering on earth. And God allows it, though
He could stop it.
Bad God!
Your question is not easy to answer.
It is if you accept the fact of no God.
But there will be an answer: This life is not the end. There will be a better
life in a better world.
So the God that happily allows suffering on a huge scale will suddenly change
his attitude after we die?
So God sent His son to lead us from this world into a better world.
Wouldn't it have been so much better if God had done the right thing from
the start?
Our 'low-level live' lasts maybe 80 years. The real life that God will give us will
last eternally.
God certainly does move in ridiculous ways.
What kind of father sits idlely by and watches His children be murdered or
tortured ?
Why is it that if we are all born equal, and God is a perfect creator, do
we have children and adults that are deformed ?
I'm sure: God doesn't want us to suffer.
What makes you so sure? Is God incompetent?
If God can't prevent suffering now how can he do so after death?
And I feel He suffers with us.
Now you are saying God is stupid.
God let men torture and murder His own son Jesus Christ. That's cruel,
but it was'nt in vain:
It didn't help us.
Many people have been saved. Saved because Jesus takes away the sin of the
world.
Why doesn't Jesus save us all from God?
And saved because people who watch Jesus and other people suffering feel
compassion and try to change their way of life from selfish to loving.
They try to avoid being like God?
Jesus became one of us to make us able to become like Him. In order to
become similar to Him we have to learn to love each other like He loves us.
We need to love unlike Jesus.
That's our job in this life. Poverty, disease, crime and disaster give us the
opportunity to learn to love more: We feel compassion with the victims and
we want to help them.
And defy God.
We can pray for them. We can give them aid. So we can step forward on our
way to overcome our selfishness and our conflicts that separate us from God
and from our neighbour.
Why bother, if God is going to amend his ways after we die?
Why, if God loves us so deeply, does He not intervene in our affairs ?
He has already intervened: He sent His son Jesus Christ to save us. And He
will intervene again: By His grace He will help us to come to a better live. God
will bring people who are willing to overcome this 'low-level world' into a
better world that you can call heaven or real life.
So that's why God plays cruel games with us.
However, why does God not intervene more often. I wish He would. But I also
know that: If god did everything for us, what would be our job?
There would still be plenty of challenges for us.
We were useless in this world.
Why did God make us that way?
But we mustn't be useless. Only people who live this low-level
life in a fruitful way will be able to rise to the higher level. God gives
us the possibility to make this world a better place. And I try to do so. So I
give aid to the poor and I pray for the sick. I try to convince other people that
war is not the answer. I try to help those who need me. And so should you. But I
know I should do more for suffering people. I could give more and do more. And
many people could do much more.
Its good to see you defying God's will.
So we shouldn't blame God for not doing more.
God could remove all suffering with a wave of his magic wand and you say we
should not blame him?
How can God expect His followers to love Him when He gives them an
ultimatum' of love Me of I will destroy you eventually ?
What man is such a fool that he "loves" someone that threatens his life,
even when he knows he doesn't have a choice ?
People can't be commanded to love but God does not know how to be lovable.
I love God. But I don't think I'm a fool.
Brainwashed perhaps.
If God threatened my life, I could hardly love Him. But he doesn't do that.
He does the opposite: He sent his son to prevent us from going down to
destruction. Jesus came from Paradise into our hell.
He lived with us and suffered with us. He was killed by us. He died for us.
He came to us in order to make us able to come to Him.
Do you think God knew before he created that he would be unable to care
for us?
Our present life is threatened by many dangers. And sooner or later it will
come to an end. By His grace God gives us hope to pass from what we call
life to what is real life. That real life will never end.
If God was good there would be no use for grace.
Is it truly love, or a fake born of extortion ?
Nobody truly loves God but some are so brainwashed they think they do.
If God didn't love us, He wouldn't have sent His son to us. He wouldn't have
allowed us to kill his son Jesus Christ. He would have destroyed us. Nobody
of us is perfect.
Blame God for that.
God's good creation has been spoilt. If God didn't love us, He would
probably create a better world without us. But he loves us. So He creates a
better world together with us. He wants us to share his real life. That's real love.
If God didn't love us there would be hate, injustice, wars, and suffering on a huge
scale. Oh, wait......................
God bless you!
Surely we don't need God's blessing since he loves us.
pacifico
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
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| User: "Scott Richter" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
15 May 2006 10:26:12 AM |
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pacifico <pacifico@freenet.de> wrote:
So I give aid to the poor and I pray for the sick.
You do realize that prayer has no effect on healing, don't you? All it
does is make you feel better about yourself. Solving problems and saying
prayers are not the same thing.
I love God. But I don't think I'm a fool. If God threatened my life, I
could hardly love Him.
Ah, the imaginary father figure as abusive parent. Apparently, like most
Christians, you only define God in a familially anthropomorphic context.
This is an important clue that God exists solely in your imagination.
That doesn't make you a fool, but it is a dangerous way to live your
life because it is too easy to shift personal responsibility to your
fictional friends.
Our present life is threatened by many dangers. And sooner or later it
will come to an end. By His grace God gives us hope to pass from what we
call life to what is real life. That real life will never end.
And when you refer to "real life", you're really talking about "real
death"...
If God didn't love us, He wouldn't have sent His son to us. He wouldn't
have allowed us to kill his son Jesus Christ. He would have destroyed us.
Nobody of us is perfect. God's good creation has been spoilt. If God
didn't love us, He would probably create a better world without us. But he
loves us. So He creates a better world together with us. He wants us to
share his real life. That's real love.
No, that's real fantasy. Your entire post is nothing by self centered
fantasies about being so important that an imaginary father figure has
taken a deep, abiding interest in your welfare. Your stories are nothing
more than primitive superstitions and ancient fables, told and retold
over the centuries.
God bless you!
Who sneezed?
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| User: "pacifico" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
16 May 2006 12:20:40 AM |
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"Scott Richter" <scottrichter422@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1hfdc8k.a7cgne15z18xsN%scottrichter422@yahoo.com...
Solving problems and saying prayers are not the same thing.
That's true. There are problems, we can solve ourselves. And we should solve
them. So please help to fight against poverty, disease, war, crime,
pollution... But tell me: What do you do for people suffering from diseases
like cancer? :-( There are problems we can't solve. But God can do. :-)
That doesn't make you a fool, but it is a dangerous way to live your
life because it is too easy to shift personal responsibility to your
fictional friends.
God is not fictional, He is real, probably more real than we are.
Nevertheless I don't shift personal responsibility to Him. I feel
responsible for what I do. That's why I write these messages... ;-)
And when you refer to "real life", you're really talking about "real
death"...
No, I don't. When our present low-level life ends with our death, a new life
begins, a high-level life that never ends.
Are you worried about your upcoming death? ;-) I'm not, as I know about real
life. :-)
Your stories are nothing
more than primitive superstitions and ancient fables, told and retold
over the centuries.
We will see... :-)
Best regards
pacifico
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| User: "Scott Richter" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
16 May 2006 09:57:52 AM |
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pacifico <pacifico@freenet.de> wrote:
God is not fictional, He is real, probably more real than we are.
God is a product of human imagination, for which there is voluminous
evidence. If that satisfies your definition of "real", then knock
yourself out. If not, please don't try to explain yourself, I've heard
more nonsense about how "real" God is than I care to remember.
And when you refer to "real life", you're really talking about "real
death"...
No, I don't. When our present low-level life ends with our death, a new
life begins, a high-level life that never ends. Are you worried about your
upcoming death? ;-) I'm not, as I know about real life. :-)
As was clear above, your use of the word "real" doesn't quite match the
dictionary. You seem the type who prefers words to mean whatever you
want them to mean. That was fun when reading Alice in Wonderland, but it
grows very tiresome when trying to have an intelligent, rational
conversation about the nature of our universe (and frankly, smiley faces
are not intelligent conversation either.)
Your stories are nothing more than primitive superstitions and
ancient fables, told and retold over the centuries.
We will see... :-)
We *are* seeing...
For centuries we have seen primitive religious superstitions pushed
further into the dark shadows of human ignorance (though not without a
fierce fight). Belief in some glorious afterlife, superstitions
regarding ensoulment, praying to an imaginary father figure in the
sky--someday these too shall pass into the history books of ancient
human mythology, just as geocentrism and polytheism did before.
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| User: "pacifico" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
16 May 2006 11:30:07 PM |
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As you haven't answered my questions yet, I ask them again (this time
without smilies, as you regard them as 'not intelligent').
What do you do for people suffering from diseases
like cancer?
Are you worried about your upcoming death?
pacifico
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
15 May 2006 01:07:02 AM |
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pacifico wrote:
"Rod" <freelance74601@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1147222385_3017@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
Questions I have about GOD:
Why, if God is all powerfull and all mercifull, does He allow suffering,
violence
and murder to ocurr on earth ?
How is it that God demands love and belief in Him while allowing His
creation
to decay and His children to be killed ?
You are right, Rod. There is suffering on earth. And God allows it, though
He could
stop it.
ROFL
Oh Dear, Oh Dear.....ROFL
Your question is not easy to answer. But there will be an answer:
This life
is not the end. There will be a better life in a better world. So God sent
His son
to lead us from this world into a better world. Our 'low-level live' lasts
maybe
80 years. The real life that God will give us will last eternally.
What kind of father sits idlely by and watches His children be murdered or
tortured ?
Why is it that if we are all born equal, and God is a perfect creator, do
we
have
children and adults that are deformed ?
I'm sure: God doesn't want us to suffer. And I feel He suffers with us. God
let men
torture and murder His own son Jesus Christ. That's cruel, but it was'nt in
vain:
Many people have been saved. Saved because Jesus takes away the sin of the
world.
And saved because people who watch Jesus and other people suffering feel
compassion
and try to change their way of life from selfish to loving.
Jesus became one of us to make us able to become like Him. In order to
become
similar to Him we have to learn to love each other like He loves us. That's
our
job in this life. Poverty, disease, crime and disaster give us the
opportunity to
learn to love more: We feel compassion with the victims and we want to help
them.
We can pray for them. We can give them aid. So we can step forward on our
way to overcome our selfishness and our conflicts that separate us from God
and from our neighbour.
Why, if God loves us so deeply, does He not intervene in our affairs ?
He has already intervened: He sent His son Jesus Christ to save us. And He
will
intervene again: By His grace He will help us to come to a better live. God
will
bring people who are willing to overcome this 'low-level world' into a
better world
that you can call heaven or real life.
However, why does God not intervene more often. I wish He would. But I also
know
that: If god did everything for us, what would be our job? We were useless
in this world. But we mustn't be useless. Only people who live this
low-level
life in a fruitful way will be able to rise to the higher level. God gives
us
the possibility to make this world a better place. And I try to do so. So I
give
aid to the poor and I pray for the sick. I try to convince other people that
war
is not the answer. I try to help those who need me. And so should you. But I
know
I should do more for suffering people. I could give more and do more. And
many
people could do much more. So we shouldn't blame God for not doing more.
How can God expect His followers to love Him when He gives them an
ultimatum'
of love Me of I will destroy you eventually ?
What man is such a fool that he "loves" someone that threatens his life,
even when
he knows he doesn't have a choice ?
I love God. But I don't think I'm a fool. If God threatened my life, I could
hardly
love Him. But he doesn't do that. He does the opposite: He sent his son to
prevent
us from going down to destruction. Jesus came from Paradise into our hell.
He lived
with us and suffered with us. He was killed by us. He died for us. He came
to us in
order to make us able to come to Him.
Our present life is threatened by many dangers. And sooner or later it will
come to
an end. By His grace God gives us hope to pass from what we call life to
what is
real life. That real life will never end.
Is it truly love, or a fake born of extortion ?
If God didn't love us, He wouldn't have sent His son to us. He wouldn't have
allowed
us to kill his son Jesus Christ. He would have destroyed us. Nobody of us is
perfect.
God's good creation has been spoilt. If God didn't love us, He would
probably create
a better world without us. But he loves us. So He creates a better world
together
with us. He wants us to share his real life. That's real love.
God bless you!
pacifico
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| User: "HOST" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
09 May 2006 10:16:22 PM |
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"Rod" <freelance74601@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1147222385_3017@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
Questions I have about GOD:
Why, if God is all powerfull and all mercifull, does He allow suffering,
violence
and murder to ocurr on earth ?
Because on Earth some folks make decisions which go against the will of the
Holy Spirit.
How is it that God demands love and belief in Him while allowing His
creation
to decay and His children to be killed ?
Dead in the flesh is one death.
Dead in the spirit is another.
What kind of father sits idlely by and watches His children be murdered or
tortured ?
And are you a faithful child? Or a stubborn one?
Why is it that if we are all born equal, and God is a perfect creator, do
we
have
children and adults that are deformed ?
Why, if God loves us so deeply, does He not intervene in our affairs ?
How can God expect His followers to love Him when He gives them an
ultimatum'
of love Me of I will destroy you eventually ?
To draw a parallel, If one sees his house burning down, yet refuses to
acknowledge it, does one expect to live through the fire?
So it is with the father and the truth.
Neither can be denied.
Denial kills.
What man is such a fool that he "loves" someone that threatens his life,
even when
he knows he doesn't have a choice ?
You do have a choice. His way, or the highway.
Is it truly love, or a fake born of extortion ?
Do you have children?
Do you not have rules in your house?
The Holy Spirit has rules too.
Hope I helped,
Host.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
09 May 2006 11:28:33 PM |
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"HOST" <HOST@everywhere.net> wrote in message
news:3edc9$44615b00$4088ca67$29714@EVERESTKC.NET...
"Rod" <freelance74601@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1147222385_3017@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
Questions I have about GOD:
Why, if God is all powerfull and all mercifull, does He allow suffering,
violence
and murder to ocurr on earth ?
Because on Earth some folks make decisions which go against the will of
the
Holy Spirit.
What about the ones who don't, why are they suffering too?
(snip)
What kind of father sits idlely by and watches His children be murdered
or
tortured ?
And are you a faithful child? Or a stubborn one?
Not an answer, but even if we pretend it is, why do the faithful ones suffer
just like the stubborn ones?
Why is it that if we are all born equal, and God is a perfect creator, do
we
have
children and adults that are deformed ?
Why, if God loves us so deeply, does He not intervene in our affairs ?
How can God expect His followers to love Him when He gives them an
ultimatum'
of love Me of I will destroy you eventually ?
To draw a parallel, If one sees his house burning down, yet refuses to
acknowledge it, does one expect to live through the fire?
I expect the rescue workers to do their job, especially if they're
omnipotent. In enlightened societies, we care for the delusional and look
out for them. If atheists are delusional, why does the god not look after
them? Why does the god not care for them?
So it is with the father and the truth.
Neither can be denied.
Denial kills.
But since the faithful suffer just as much as the unfaithful, you could also
say that acceptance kills.
If the innocent suffer along with the guilty, then there's no justice.
What man is such a fool that he "loves" someone that threatens his life,
even when
he knows he doesn't have a choice ?
You do have a choice. His way, or the highway.
But there's no perceptable difference.
Is it truly love, or a fake born of extortion ?
Do you have children?
Do you not have rules in your house?
The Holy Spirit has rules too.
So why does this Holy Spirit punish the ones that follow the rules as much
as the ones who don't?
Hope I helped,
Not in the slightest.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
10 May 2006 05:35:02 AM |
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HOST wrote:
"Rod" <freelance74601@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1147222385_3017@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
Questions I have about GOD:
Why, if God is all powerfull and all mercifull, does He allow suffering,
violence
and murder to ocurr on earth ?
Because on Earth some folks make decisions which go against the will of the
Holy Spirit.
banal nonsense
How is it that God demands love and belief in Him while allowing His
creation
to decay and His children to be killed ?
Dead in the flesh is one death.
Dead in the spirit is another.
banal nonsense
What kind of father sits idlely by and watches His children be murdered or
tortured ?
And are you a faithful child? Or a stubborn one?
Deviation
Why is it that if we are all born equal, and God is a perfect creator, do
we
have
children and adults that are deformed ?
Why, if God loves us so deeply, does He not intervene in our affairs ?
How can God expect His followers to love Him when He gives them an
ultimatum'
of love Me of I will destroy you eventually ?
To draw a parallel, If one sees his house burning down, yet refuses to
acknowledge it, does one expect to live through the fire?
banal nonsense
So it is with the father and the truth.
Neither can be denied.
Denial kills.
What man is such a fool that he "loves" someone that threatens his life,
even when
he knows he doesn't have a choice ?
You do have a choice. His way, or the highway.
His way is nothing but a 'way' as prescribed by early humans.
No god involved at all. grow up
Is it truly love, or a fake born of extortion ?
Do you have children?
Yes and only children on this planet are free and innnocent, free from
indoctrination into mythology and gods
Do you not have rules in your house?
Yes, but what is your point?
The Holy Spirit has rules too.
Then kindly clearly define what the holy spirit is
Hope I helped,
Well sorry you did not, you only confused things, as anyone would be confused
trying to injest religious dogma.
Host.
.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
10 May 2006 01:29:27 PM |
|
|
bob young wrote:
HOST wrote:
"Rod" <freelance74601@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1147222385_3017@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
Questions I have about GOD:
Why, if God is all powerfull and all mercifull, does He allow
suffering, violence
and murder to ocurr on earth ?
Because on Earth some folks make decisions which go against the will of
the Holy Spirit.
banal nonsense
Not a thinking man.....
*****************************************************
OMNISCIENCE VERSUS CREATORHOOD OF GOD
God is defined as creator of all in most religions.
And god is claimed to be omniscient, all knowing.
A. God is said by theologians to have created the Universe
and all in that Universe.
B. God is omniscient, all knowing, he knows all that is in
the Universe and he knows the future state of the Universe
and the state of all its contents as he contemplates creating
the Universe.
C. If god creates a Universe, he will know that in 13 billion
years this Universe will have a man named John Smith in it
because he is omniscient, all knowing.
D. If John Smith is good and saved, or evil and damned, in
the distant future, God will know whether John Smith is
to be good or evil.
E. God knows that the Universe created in its present state will
have a John Smith, god must then contemplate the future state
of Smith and decide if he will tolerate an evil Smith or if
god will create the Universe in another manner that will have
a good Smith who is saved in preference to a Smith who is evil
and damned.
F. Thus, Smith will be good or evil only because of a specific
personal and will choice made solely by god who must make
a choice faced with the knowledge of the future and implement
his choice of what the future smith will be, good or evil.
G. Since this all happens as god contemplates creation of the
Universe, Smith has no say in whether he is to be good or evil
as he does not exist yet and cannot influence god's choice.
H. If Smith is evil, then evil exists solely because of a choice
made by god. In fact all moral evil done by creations of god
will be evil and do evil only because of personal and willful
creations of god allowing evil acts to be done, by direct
decision of god.
I. If evil exists in a world with an omniscient creator god,
it is solely and only because god allows evil.
J. If evil exists solely because of personal choices of god,
god then is not as defined, omnibenevolent.
K. Man and any other sentient being in such a Universe cannot
have any free will, not even in principle. A Universe with
a god that creates all and knows all precludes free will for
all beings god creates in the strongest possible manner.
L. This is precisely because knowing all and faced with
what will be, god at all times must make a personal choice
to actually create what he is contemplating creating with
full knowldege and acceptance of what his creation will
entail, or he must change his creation to conform to his
wishes for the type of world he wants. Thus free will is
impossible, only god's will can be exporessed in a
Universe where god is creator of all and omniscient.
********************************************************
--
"Just because you don't take an interest in politics
doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you."
- Pericles
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
11 May 2006 01:05:06 AM |
|
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wbarwell wrote:
bob young wrote:
HOST wrote:
"Rod" <freelance74601@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1147222385_3017@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
Questions I have about GOD:
Why, if God is all powerfull and all mercifull, does He allow
suffering, violence
and murder to ocurr on earth ?
Because on Earth some folks make decisions which go against the will of
the Holy Spirit.
banal nonsense
Not a thinking man.....
Give you something to think about then.
Let us say that unfortunately both your parents were killed in a car accident
when you were two years old and let us assume then that you were put up for
adoption, and had you been adopted by a Hindu family, you would now be
praying to a god with the head of an elephant and a human body.
Take it slowly.
bob
*****************************************************
OMNISCIENCE VERSUS CREATORHOOD OF GOD
God is defined as creator of all in most religions.
And god is claimed to be omniscient, all knowing.
A. God is said by theologians to have created the Universe
and all in that Universe.
B. God is omniscient, all knowing, he knows all that is in
the Universe and he knows the future state of the Universe
and the state of all its contents as he contemplates creating
the Universe.
C. If god creates a Universe, he will know that in 13 billion
years this Universe will have a man named John Smith in it
because he is omniscient, all knowing.
D. If John Smith is good and saved, or evil and damned, in
the distant future, God will know whether John Smith is
to be good or evil.
E. God knows that the Universe created in its present state will
have a John Smith, god must then contemplate the future state
of Smith and decide if he will tolerate an evil Smith or if
god will create the Universe in another manner that will have
a good Smith who is saved in preference to a Smith who is evil
and damned.
F. Thus, Smith will be good or evil only because of a specific
personal and will choice made solely by god who must make
a choice faced with the knowledge of the future and implement
his choice of what the future smith will be, good or evil.
G. Since this all happens as god contemplates creation of the
Universe, Smith has no say in whether he is to be good or evil
as he does not exist yet and cannot influence god's choice.
H. If Smith is evil, then evil exists solely because of a choice
made by god. In fact all moral evil done by creations of god
will be evil and do evil only because of personal and willful
creations of god allowing evil acts to be done, by direct
decision of god.
I. If evil exists in a world with an omniscient creator god,
it is solely and only because god allows evil.
J. If evil exists solely because of personal choices of god,
god then is not as defined, omnibenevolent.
K. Man and any other sentient being in such a Universe cannot
have any free will, not even in principle. A Universe with
a god that creates all and knows all precludes free will for
all beings god creates in the strongest possible manner.
L. This is precisely because knowing all and faced with
what will be, god at all times must make a personal choice
to actually create what he is contemplating creating with
full knowldege and acceptance of what his creation will
entail, or he must change his creation to conform to his
wishes for the type of world he wants. Thus free will is
impossible, only god's will can be exporessed in a
Universe where god is creator of all and omniscient.
********************************************************
--
"Just because you don't take an interest in politics
doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you."
- Pericles
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
11 May 2006 06:02:17 PM |
|
|
bob young wrote:
Let us say that unfortunately both your parents were killed in a car
accident when you were two years old and let us assume then that you
were put up for adoption, and had you been adopted by a Hindu family,
you would now be praying to a god with the head of an elephant and a
human body.
Take it slowly.
I've asked similar questions, even asked what would happen if they were born
into a culture that had never heard of Christianity.
The answer has always been that *they* would still have been a Christian.
.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
12 May 2006 06:17:02 AM |
|
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Mike Painter wrote:
bob young wrote:
Let us say that unfortunately both your parents were killed in a car
accident when you were two years old and let us assume then that you
were put up for adoption, and had you been adopted by a Hindu family,
you would now be praying to a god with the head of an elephant and a
human body.
Take it slowly.
I've asked similar questions, even asked what would happen if they were born
into a culture that had never heard of Christianity.
The answer has always been that *they* would still have been a Christian.
Mind boggling isn't it.
Cheers
bob
.
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| User: "Rod" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
10 May 2006 01:54:04 PM |
|
|
On 9-May-2006, "HOST" <HOST@everywhere.net> wrote while scratching his
heads:
"Rod" <freelance74601@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1147222385_3017@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
Questions I have about GOD:
Why, if God is all powerfull and all mercifull, does He allow suffering,
violence
and murder to ocurr on earth ?
Because on Earth some folks make decisions which go against the will of
the
Holy Spirit.
I believe that if a GOD actually "cares" for His creation he will look
after it
and care for it. Even we as humans take care for our children, but this
"Father"
allows the murder of His, evn to the point of doing it Himself.
How is it that God demands love and belief in Him while allowing His
creation
to decay and His children to be killed ?
Dead in the flesh is one death.
Dead in the spirit is another.
Absentee landlord is another....
What kind of father sits idlely by and watches His children be murdered
or
tortured ?
And are you a faithful child? Or a stubborn one?
If you are told to throw your youngest child from a high cliff
to prove that you love God, are you going to do so ?
Why is it that if we are all born equal, and God is a perfect creator,
do
we
have
children and adults that are deformed ?
Why, if God loves us so deeply, does He not intervene in our affairs ?
How can God expect His followers to love Him when He gives them an
ultimatum'
of love Me of I will destroy you eventually ?
To draw a parallel, If one sees his house burning down, yet refuses to
acknowledge it, does one expect to live through the fire?
So it is with the father and the truth.
Neither can be denied.
Denial kills.
So does God, so does this mean that He actually believes He is
loved by those He threatens with destruction ? Is He stupid ?
What man is such a fool that he "loves" someone that threatens his life,
even when
he knows he doesn't have a choice ?
You do have a choice. His way, or the highway.
His way or death, don't you mean ?
Is it truly love, or a fake born of extortion ?
Do you have children?
Do you not have rules in your house?
The Holy Spirit has rules too.
I do have rules, but I don't threaten to murder my children
in one breath and claim to be righteous and Holy in the
next breath !
Hope I helped,
Not very much...
Host.
Rod
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
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http://www.usenet.com
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| User: "John Baker" |
|
| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
10 May 2006 03:41:39 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 9 May 2006 22:16:22 -0500, "HOST" <HOST@everywhere.net> wrote:
"Rod" <freelance74601@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1147222385_3017@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
Questions I have about GOD:
Why, if God is all powerfull and all mercifull, does He allow suffering,
violence
and murder to ocurr on earth ?
Because on Earth some folks make decisions which go against the will of the
Holy Spirit.
How is it that God demands love and belief in Him while allowing His
creation
to decay and His children to be killed ?
Dead in the flesh is one death.
Dead in the spirit is another.
What kind of father sits idlely by and watches His children be murdered or
tortured ?
And are you a faithful child? Or a stubborn one?
Why is it that if we are all born equal, and God is a perfect creator, do
we
have
children and adults that are deformed ?
Why, if God loves us so deeply, does He not intervene in our affairs ?
How can God expect His followers to love Him when He gives them an
ultimatum'
of love Me of I will destroy you eventually ?
To draw a parallel, If one sees his house burning down, yet refuses to
acknowledge it, does one expect to live through the fire?
So it is with the father and the truth.
Neither can be denied.
Denial kills.
What man is such a fool that he "loves" someone that threatens his life,
even when
he knows he doesn't have a choice ?
You do have a choice. His way, or the highway.
Is it truly love, or a fake born of extortion ?
Do you have children?
Do you not have rules in your house?
The Holy Spirit has rules too.
Hope I helped,
Host.
Ah. *Now* I remember you....
<re-PLONK!>
.
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
09 May 2006 11:01:33 PM |
|
|
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet HOST (HOST@everywhere.net)
made the light shine upon us with this:
Why, if God is all powerfull and all mercifull, does He allow
suffering, violence
and murder to ocurr on earth ?
Because on Earth some folks make decisions which go against the will
of the Holy Spirit.
***** the Holy Spirit. ***** him in the ***** with a big rubber *****.
There, now eternal life in heaven is not an option for me, no matter how
hard you ***** and pretend I'm accepting Jeebus.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
The laws that require me to NOT kill people I don't like REALLY bug
me, or there would be many less of YOUR kind.
-John Weatherly
.
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| User: "Rod" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
10 May 2006 04:09:10 PM |
|
|
On 9-May-2006, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com> wrote while scratching his
heads:
Why, if God is all powerfull and all mercifull, does He allow
suffering, violence
and murder to ocurr on earth ?
Because on Earth some folks make decisions which go against the will
of the Holy Spirit.
***** the Holy Spirit. ***** him in the ***** with a big rubber *****.
There, now eternal life in heaven is not an option for me, no matter how
hard you ***** and pretend I'm accepting Jeebus.
--
Uncle Vic
Even if one chooses to remain an atheist, the principles that Christ
proposed for people to live by are sound, and would benefit all peoples,
and thats hard to find fault with at all UNLESS that particular person
finding the fault has a liking for evil. Evil doesn't need a GOD of the
Bible to exist, it is found everyday in the hearts of men, as your words
above reflect, Vic.
Rod
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
10 May 2006 07:35:10 PM |
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|
In <1147295025_5111@sp6iad.superfeed.net>, on 05/10/06
at 09:09 PM, "Rod" <freelance74601@yahoo.com> said:
On 9-May-2006, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com> wrote while scratching
his heads:
Why, if God is all powerfull and all mercifull, does He allow
suffering, violence
and murder to ocurr on earth ?
Because on Earth some folks make decisions which go against the will
of the Holy Spirit.
***** the Holy Spirit. ***** him in the ***** with a big rubber *****.
There, now eternal life in heaven is not an option for me, no matter how
hard you ***** and pretend I'm accepting Jeebus.
--
Uncle Vic
Even if one chooses to remain an atheist, the principles that Christ
If you can, can you post one principle positied by the missing messiah that was not already in place in either his society, or surrounding societies, or in prior societies. I fess, I am unaware of any such novelty, yet supposedly, he was a god. & supposedly, gods know more than humans IAW the xian myth.
proposed for people to live by are sound, and would benefit all peoples,
and thats hard to find fault with at all UNLESS that particular person
Yet, they are not his principles nor, historically speaking, did he espouse them. You have to exist to be able to influence others yourself, or you can be the figment of the imagination of others basing their wishes on a popular myth [gods, heroes, etc]
finding the fault has a liking for evil. Evil doesn't need a GOD of the
Finding fault in a flawed product has a liking for evil. Now there is a novel thought. Perchance you meant to say that evil people [by our mutual definition] will always find fault?
Bible to exist, it is found everyday in the hearts of men, as your words
Without people, there can be no evil as we use the term.
above reflect, Vic.
& where is that? Mind you, I can see nothing evil in what he wrote, nor can I see where he espoused doing evil. He appears to be playing the xian mind game, & verifying that for him, he is neither afraid of their threatened hell, nor their incompetent gods.
Rod
walksalone who agrees with Uncle Vic, but believes the message could have been worded differently. Still, xians are not famous for paying attention to what people say, so maybe he had the right of it.
--
I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part
of me will continue. But as much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide
cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful
thinking.
Carl Sagan, The Demon Haunted World
.
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
|
| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
10 May 2006 07:47:28 PM |
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|
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Rod
(freelance74601@yahoo.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
On 9-May-2006, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com> wrote while
scratching his heads:
Why, if God is all powerfull and all mercifull, does He allow
suffering, violence
and murder to ocurr on earth ?
Because on Earth some folks make decisions which go against the
will of the Holy Spirit.
***** the Holy Spirit. ***** him in the ***** with a big rubber
*****. There, now eternal life in heaven is not an option for me, no
matter how hard you ***** and pretend I'm accepting Jeebus.
--
Uncle Vic
Even if one chooses to remain an atheist, the principles that Christ
proposed for people to live by are sound, and would benefit all
peoples, and thats hard to find fault with at all UNLESS that
particular person finding the fault has a liking for evil. Evil
doesn't need a GOD of the Bible to exist, it is found everyday in
the hearts of men, as your words above reflect, Vic.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse
you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully
use you, and persecute you;
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never
forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
How do you reconcile the two verses above? Jesus wants you to love your
enemies. But he wants to punish his forever. No, the principles of Christ
are the essense of hypocrisy. The bible is a bad place to look for
morality lessons.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
The laws that require me to NOT kill people I don't like REALLY bug
me, or there would be many less of YOUR kind.
-John Weatherly
.
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| User: "Rod" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
11 May 2006 02:03:35 PM |
|
|
On 10-May-2006, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com> wrote while scratching his
heads:
Even if one chooses to remain an atheist, the principles that Christ
proposed for people to live by are sound, and would benefit all
peoples, and thats hard to find fault with at all UNLESS that
particular person finding the fault has a liking for evil. Evil
doesn't need a GOD of the Bible to exist, it is found everyday in
the hearts of men, as your words above reflect, Vic.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse
you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully
use you, and persecute you;
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never
forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
How do you reconcile the two verses above?
Why do you have to reconcile the two ? We're talking about seperate things
here, the imperfect man versus the perfect Spirit. No one stuck a gun to
your head
and made you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, you did it willingly to deprive
yourself
of the chance to be in Heaven. Even if my faith is weak to non existent I
don't
feel any pity for you, it WAS an act of your choosing. You couldn't be
worse off according
to scripture if you had put a round thru your skull..... So, if disbelief
makes life
bearable for you than go for it, because should the scriptures prove to be
accurate,
well lets just say that Vic is going to be one very unhappy camper.....and
hence
the reason for my search...to find and verify the truth. If it's garbage
I'll want free of
of it, if it's truth...well....I value my ***** much more than you seem to
value
yours !
Jesus wants you to love your
enemies. But he wants to punish his forever. No, the principles of
Christ
are the essense of hypocrisy. The bible is a bad place to look for
morality lessons.
--
Uncle Vic
Rod
.
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
|
| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
11 May 2006 02:28:15 PM |
|
|
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Rod
(freelance74601@yahoo.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
On 10-May-2006, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com> wrote while
scratching his heads:
Even if one chooses to remain an atheist, the principles that
Christ proposed for people to live by are sound, and would
benefit all peoples, and thats hard to find fault with at all
UNLESS that particular person finding the fault has a liking for
evil. Evil doesn't need a GOD of the Bible to exist, it is found
everyday in the hearts of men, as your words above reflect, Vic.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that
curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which
despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath
never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
How do you reconcile the two verses above?
Why do you have to reconcile the two ?
Because they are contradictory, which negates the perfectness of "god's
word".
We're talking about seperate
things here, the imperfect man versus the perfect Spirit. No one
stuck a gun to your head
and made you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, you did it willingly to
deprive yourself
of the chance to be in Heaven. Even if my faith is weak to non
existent I don't
feel any pity for you, it WAS an act of your choosing. You couldn't
be worse off according
to scripture if you had put a round thru your skull..... So, if
disbelief makes life
bearable for you than go for it, because should the scriptures prove
to be accurate,
well lets just say that Vic is going to be one very unhappy
camper.....and hence
the reason for my search...to find and verify the truth. If it's
garbage I'll want free of
of it, if it's truth...well....I value my ***** much more than you
seem to value
yours !
I posted that to illustrate the extent of my atheism and to prove that I
do not fear the Christian bogeyman. You actually believe I have
consigned myself to hell for all eternity. In my mind, I have merely
written some words and insulted your imaginary friends. I already know
where I am going when I die. Nowhere, just like everyone else.
Good luck in your search for the truth. A little advice... read the
bible. You will find the truth therein. Depending on where your head is
at, you'll either find the faux truth of jesusland, or recognize it for
the stone age crap it is.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
The laws that require me to NOT kill people I don't like REALLY bug
me, or there would be many less of YOUR kind.
-John Weatherly
.
|
|
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| User: "Rod" |
|
| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
11 May 2006 09:14:25 PM |
|
|
On 11-May-2006, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com> wrote while scratching his
heads:
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that
curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which
despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath
never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
How do you reconcile the two verses above?
Why do you have to reconcile the two ?
Because they are contradictory, which negates the perfectness of "god's
word".
And with all my questions and doubts about God, you believe I am
inclined to defend Him ? I defend what I know to be of benefit to
myself or others. Raping my neighbors daughter is of no benefit to
him, her or myself. Beating my neighbor senseless is of no immediate value
unless threatened by him. Robbing the neighborhood grocery is of no
value, but what IS of value is civilization and carefull thought.
We're talking about seperate
things here, the imperfect man versus the perfect Spirit. No one
stuck a gun to your head
and made you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, you did it willingly to
deprive yourself
of the chance to be in Heaven. Even if my faith is weak to non
existent I don't
feel any pity for you, it WAS an act of your choosing. You couldn't
be worse off according
to scripture if you had put a round thru your skull..... So, if
disbelief makes life
bearable for you than go for it, because should the scriptures prove
to be accurate,
well lets just say that Vic is going to be one very unhappy
camper.....and hence
the reason for my search...to find and verify the truth. If it's
garbage I'll want free of
of it, if it's truth...well....I value my ***** much more than you
seem to value
yours !
I posted that to illustrate the extent of my atheism and to prove that I
do not fear the Christian bogeyman. You actually believe I have
consigned myself to hell for all eternity.
What I believe is that without supporting evidence to the contrary
it is a distinct possibility. As I told you before, I do not like even
odds,
they always comeback to bite you on the ***** in the end. If you must
error, error to caution with the unknown. An example, sveral years ago
I had no supporting evidence that Fred Phelps was a living entity, but
my doubts about his existence didn't preclude him being real, did they ?
In my mind, I have merely
written some words and insulted your imaginary friends. I already know
where I am going when I die. Nowhere, just like everyone else.
Good luck in your search for the truth.
Thank you Vic. If I am fortunate enough to learn something of value I
will share it.
A little advice... read the
bible. You will find the truth therein. Depending on where your head is
at, you'll either find the faux truth of jesusland, or recognize it for
the stone age crap it is.
Some of it is the latter, but some of it is of value to maintain a
civilized society. We cannot progress as a coherent species
if were busy murdering one another and lack the ability to
communicate.
Vic, you've opened my eyes to several possibilities, and though
I am not 100 percent persuaded to your beliefs I do express
my thanks to you for the insights.
It's been a rare priviledge.....thanks .
Rod
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
11 May 2006 10:30:27 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Rod
(freelance74601@yahoo.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
On 11-May-2006, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com> wrote while
scratching his heads:
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them
that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them
which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath
never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
How do you reconcile the two verses above?
Why do you have to reconcile the two ?
Because they are contradictory, which negates the perfectness of
"god's word".
And with all my questions and doubts about God, you believe I am
inclined to defend Him ?
You've been doing just that. You're sitting on the fence, as we put it.
Some people sit there their entire lives. Others have the balls to think
for themselves. Questioning your god and your beliefs is a "sin".
That's why many fence-sitters are content to remain up there. I climbed
the fence when I was seven and stopped going to church. I climbed down
the other side on 9/11/2001, when I witnessed the horrorshow of fanatical
religion in action. I was 45. I got my AA number three months later.
I defend what I know to be of benefit to
myself or others. Raping my neighbors daughter is of no benefit to
him, her or myself. Beating my neighbor senseless is of no immediate
value unless threatened by him. Robbing the neighborhood grocery is
of no value, but what IS of value is civilization and carefull
thought.
That's good thinking. The Bible doesn't allow you to weigh the value of
morality vs immorality. It only makes commandments, apparently on a
need-to-know basis. You've demonstrated that your source of morality
comes from the needs of society and your human instinct to blend with
society, not just blind obedience.
We're talking about seperate
things here, the imperfect man versus the perfect Spirit. No one
stuck a gun to your head
and made you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, you did it willingly to
deprive yourself
of the chance to be in Heaven. Even if my faith is weak to non
existent I don't
feel any pity for you, it WAS an act of your choosing. You
couldn't be worse off according
to scripture if you had put a round thru your skull..... So, if
disbelief makes life
bearable for you than go for it, because should the scriptures
prove to be accurate,
well lets just say that Vic is going to be one very unhappy
camper.....and hence
the reason for my search...to find and verify the truth. If it's
garbage I'll want free of
of it, if it's truth...well....I value my ***** much more than you
seem to value
yours !
I posted that to illustrate the extent of my atheism and to prove
that I do not fear the Christian bogeyman. You actually believe I
have consigned myself to hell for all eternity.
What I believe is that without supporting evidence to the contrary
it is a distinct possibility. As I told you before, I do not like
even odds,
they always comeback to bite you on the ***** in the end. If you must
error, error to caution with the unknown.
Don't be influenced by Pascal's Wager, which claims it is safer to put
your money on God. Which god? OK, the Muslim god seems to be pretty
popular. So which strain of Islam do I put my money on? There are as
many conflicting versions of Islam as there are of Christianity, and most
people's reason for believing their version is the One True Religion is
geographical in nature. I was born into a family of Scandinavian
immigrants, so I fell from the Lutheran church. Had I been born in Saudi
Arabia, I'd have fallen from their version of Islam.
Heh... "fallen". I prefer "climbed out".
An example, sveral years
ago I had no supporting evidence that Fred Phelps was a living
entity, but my doubts about his existence didn't preclude him being
real, did they ?
Nobody claimed Fred Phelps was a miracle-performing god, though.
In my mind, I have merely
written some words and insulted your imaginary friends. I already
know where I am going when I die. Nowhere, just like everyone else.
Good luck in your search for the truth.
Thank you Vic. If I am fortunate enough to learn something of value
I will share it.
A little advice... read the
bible. You will find the truth therein. Depending on where your
head is at, you'll either find the faux truth of jesusland, or
recognize it for the stone age crap it is.
Some of it is the latter, but some of it is of value to maintain a
civilized society. We cannot progress as a coherent species
if were busy murdering one another and lack the ability to
communicate.
Vic, you've opened my eyes to several possibilities, and though
I am not 100 percent persuaded to your beliefs I do express
my thanks to you for the insights.
It's been a rare priviledge.....thanks .
You're quite welcome.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
The laws that require me to NOT kill people I don't like REALLY bug
me, or there would be many less of YOUR kind.
-John Weatherly
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
11 May 2006 11:07:07 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Rod
(freelance74601@yahoo.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
I should have responded to this on my previous post, so here it is.
A little advice... read the
bible. You will find the truth therein. Depending on where your
head is at, you'll either find the faux truth of jesusland, or
recognize it for the stone age crap it is.
Some of it is the latter, but some of it is of value to maintain a
civilized society. We cannot progress as a coherent species
if were busy murdering one another and lack the ability to
communicate.
Take a look at society today under a microscope. Secular societies like
Norway and Czechoslovakia do not get involved in political scuffles and
war. As a result, they are clean, safe, happy places to reside. Now look
at America, or the Middle East, where religion is a strong influence. When
asked why someone does not murder, the answer is invariably "because God
commands me not to". Not "because it is not conductive to a growing
society", which is the real reason.
The bible does teach "thou shalt not kill". But it is a commandment,
therefore it does not supply a reason why. The bible does, however, supply
us with some examples. Guys like Lot, to whom incest meant "date night".
Guys like David, who glorified adultery, or Joshua, who glorified murder,
rape and theft in spite of the commandments against these acts. And guys
like "God" himself, who murdered an entire global population because they
acted in the way he created them to act.
The more civilized a society is, the less it involves itself with religion.
The more a religion has a stronghold on a society, the more rampantly
inflicted with racial bigotry, poverty and war is this society. There is
no value offered by any religion that a secular society cannot figure out
for itself, and when a society relies on religion for the good it offers,
like subliminal advertising, it gets a strong dose of the immoral stuff to
boot.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
The laws that require me to NOT kill people I don't like REALLY bug
me, or there would be many less of YOUR kind.
-John Weatherly
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
12 May 2006 05:58:51 PM |
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Uncle Vic wrote:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Rod
(freelance74601@yahoo.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
I should have responded to this on my previous post, so here it is.
A little advice... read the
bible. You will find the truth therein. Depending on where your
head is at, you'll either find the faux truth of jesusland, or
recognize it for the stone age crap it is.
Some of it is the latter, but some of it is of value to maintain a
civilized society. We cannot progress as a coherent species
if were busy murdering one another and lack the ability to
communicate.
Take a look at society today under a microscope. Secular societies like
Norway and Czechoslovakia do not get involved in political scuffles and
war. As a result, they are clean, safe, happy places to reside. Now look
at America, or the Middle East, where religion is a strong influence.
When asked why someone does not murder, the answer is invariably "because
God
commands me not to". Not "because it is not conductive to a growing
society", which is the real reason.
The bible does teach "thou shalt not kill". But it is a commandment,
therefore it does not supply a reason why. The bible does, however,
supply
us with some examples. Guys like Lot, to whom incest meant "date night".
Guys like David, who glorified adultery, or Joshua, who glorified murder,
rape and theft in spite of the commandments against these acts.
Deuteronomy 20
12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee,
then thou shalt besiege it:
13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt
smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in
the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and
thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath
given thee. (take: Heb. spoil)
15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee,
which are not of the cities of these nations.
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee
for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely , the Hittites, and the
Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the
Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
And guys
like "God" himself, who murdered an entire global population because they
acted in the way he created them to act.
The more civilized a society is, the less it involves itself with
religion. The more a religion has a stronghold on a society, the more
rampantly
inflicted with racial bigotry, poverty and war is this society. There is
no value offered by any religion that a secular society cannot figure out
for itself, and when a society relies on religion for the good it offers,
like subliminal advertising, it gets a strong dose of the immoral stuff to
boot.
--
"We won't have destroyed anything unless
we destroy the ruins too,"
- Alfred Jarry
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
10 May 2006 03:00:15 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Tue, 9 May 2006 22:16:22 -0500, "HOST" <HOST@everywhere.net> wrote:
copyright 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of
this article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of
the author
"Rod" <freelance74601@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1147222385_3017@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
Questions I have about GOD:
Why, if God is all powerfull and all mercifull, does He allow suffering,
violence
and murder to ocurr on earth ?
For the same reason He doesn't FORCE you to believe!
Because on Earth some folks make decisions which go against the will of the
Holy Spirit.
How is it that God demands love and belief in Him while allowing His
creation
to decay and His children to be killed ?
Dead in the flesh is one death.
Dead in the spirit is another.
What kind of father sits idlely by and watches His children be murdered or
tortured ?
And are you a faithful child? Or a stubborn one?
Why is it that if we are all born equal, and God is a perfect creator, do
we
have
children and adults that are deformed ?
Why, if God loves us so deeply, does He not intervene in our affairs ?
How can God expect His followers to love Him when He gives them an
ultimatum'
of love Me of I will destroy you eventually ?
To draw a parallel, If one sees his house burning down, yet refuses to
acknowledge it, does one expect to live through the fire?
So it is with the father and the truth.
Neither can be denied.
Denial kills.
What man is such a fool that he "loves" someone that threatens his life,
even when
he knows he doesn't have a choice ?
You do have a choice. His way, or the highway.
Is it truly love, or a fake born of extortion ?
Do you have children?
Do you not have rules in your house?
The Holy Spirit has rules too.
Hope I helped,
Host.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Unanswered questions concerning God; faith ? Or stupidity....? |
10 May 2006 05:37:02 AM |
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"john w
x-no-archive: yes
On Tue, 9 May 2006 22:16: | | | |
