| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"David W. Barnes" |
| Date: |
01 Mar 2005 09:32:42 AM |
| Object: |
USSC Goes Left |
Just out today:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/01/scotus.death.penalty.ap/index.html
What surprises me is how 19 states could have allowed this sort of
thing. The cruelty of conservatives never ceases to amaze me.
"It was the second major defeat at the high court in three years for
supporters of the death penalty. Justices in 2002 banned the execution
of the mentally retarded, also citing the Constitution's Eighth
Amendment ban on cruel and unusual punishments."
Still, four justices voted to continue killing those who were children
when they committed their crimes. A haven' read who the four
dissenting opinions were, the story is just breaking, but I'd bet it is
the conservatives."
"Pro-life" my *****.
And on a not so related story,
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/28/bodies.found/index.html
The Right continues their attempts to terrorize "liberal" judges.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
08 Mar 2005 10:54:09 PM |
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Attila <Attila> wrote:
On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:11:06 -0800, "David W. Barnes"
<dbarnes@aol.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<080320050811063388%dbarnes@aol.com> wrote:
In article <8idr215bvpl8v56c3jg5hmskc30mtnjlj7@4ax.com>, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
It is murderous insanity to want to see innocent people executed.
I never said that. I do not support ending executions on the chance
one of the convicted may have been convicted in error.
Unless that person were you?
I take my chances with life the same as everyone else.
The only way to be sure no innocent person is executed is not to
execute anyone, and I will not support that.
So you'd rather run the risk of being executed yourself than abolish
the death penalty.
Murderous insanity.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
09 Mar 2005 05:22:15 AM |
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On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 04:54:09 GMT, (Ray
Fischer) in alt.abortion with message-id <d0lvhh$q1b$1@bolt.sonic.net>
wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:11:06 -0800, "David W. Barnes"
<dbarnes@aol.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<080320050811063388%dbarnes@aol.com> wrote:
In article <8idr215bvpl8v56c3jg5hmskc30mtnjlj7@4ax.com>, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
It is murderous insanity to want to see innocent people executed.
I never said that. I do not support ending executions on the chance
one of the convicted may have been convicted in error.
Unless that person were you?
I take my chances with life the same as everyone else.
The only way to be sure no innocent person is executed is not to
execute anyone, and I will not support that.
So you'd rather run the risk of being executed yourself than abolish
the death penalty.
I will never support abolishing the death penalty under any
circumstances for any reason. That point is not negotiable as far as
I am concerned.
Murderous insanity.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
09 Mar 2005 10:27:25 PM |
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Attila <Attila> wrote:
On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 04:54:09 GMT, (Ray
Fischer) in alt.abortion with message-id <d0lvhh$q1b$1@bolt.sonic.net>
wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:11:06 -0800, "David W. Barnes"
<dbarnes@aol.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<080320050811063388%dbarnes@aol.com> wrote:
In article <8idr215bvpl8v56c3jg5hmskc30mtnjlj7@4ax.com>, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
It is murderous insanity to want to see innocent people executed.
I never said that. I do not support ending executions on the chance
one of the convicted may have been convicted in error.
Unless that person were you?
I take my chances with life the same as everyone else.
The only way to be sure no innocent person is executed is not to
execute anyone, and I will not support that.
So you'd rather run the risk of being executed yourself than abolish
the death penalty.
I will never support abolishing the death penalty under any
circumstances for any reason.
Because you're a murderoues lunatic who would rather die than allow
innocent people to live.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
10 Mar 2005 09:12:01 AM |
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On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:27:25 GMT, (Ray
Fischer) in alt.abortion with message-id <d0oibc$18h$1@bolt.sonic.net>
wrote:
I will never support abolishing the death penalty under any
circumstances for any reason.
Because you're a murderoues lunatic who would rather die than allow
innocent people to live.
Ray, why do you ruin discussions with personal attacks as if you can
do no better?
If they are found guilty in court they are not innocent.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
10 Mar 2005 09:15:51 PM |
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Attila <Attila> wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer)
I will never support abolishing the death penalty under any
circumstances for any reason.
Because you're a murderoues lunatic who would rather die than allow
innocent people to live.
Ray, why do you ruin discussions with personal attacks as if you can
do no better?
It's a statement of fact.
If they are found guilty in court they are not innocent.
That's where the "lunatic" part comes in. You've already admitted
that some people found gulty were, in fact, innocent. Now you're
trying to pretend that everybody convicted of a crime did actually
commit the crime.
You want to have executed people who did not commit any crime.
People who are innocent. That's commonly known as murder.
And you support killing people knowing that YOU could be one
of those innocent people executed.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
11 Mar 2005 05:26:23 AM |
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On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 03:15:51 GMT, (Ray
Fischer) in alt.abortion with message-id <d0r2h6$nn8$1@bolt.sonic.net>
wrote:
Attila <Attila> wrote:
(Ray Fischer)
I will never support abolishing the death penalty under any
circumstances for any reason.
Because you're a murderoues lunatic who would rather die than allow
innocent people to live.
Ray, why do you ruin discussions with personal attacks as if you can
do no better?
It's a statement of fact.
Prove it. Not your opinion but actual factual proof.
If they are found guilty in court they are not innocent.
That's where the "lunatic" part comes in. You've already admitted
that some people found gulty were, in fact, innocent. Now you're
trying to pretend that everybody convicted of a crime did actually
commit the crime.
I am pretending nothing. For the system to work the results of a
court trial must be accepted as correct.
You want to have executed people who did not commit any crime.
People who are innocent. That's commonly known as murder.
No it is not, and you know it. Executions of those found guilty are
legal, and murder is an illegal act. You are guilty of using the word
incorrectly simply for dramatic effect.
Shame on you.
And you support killing people knowing that YOU could be one
of those innocent people executed.
I support the death penalty, and the only fair basis for it's
application is the results reached in a court of law. Do you prefer
the alternatives of the whelm of a king or mob lynchings?
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| User: "David W. Barnes" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
10 Mar 2005 09:15:24 AM |
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In article <aqo0311h9tqjecnnuhbsvdd70724vck9ci@4ax.com>, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:27:25 GMT, (Ray
Fischer) in alt.abortion with message-id <d0oibc$18h$1@bolt.sonic.net>
wrote:
I will never support abolishing the death penalty under any
circumstances for any reason.
Because you're a murderoues lunatic who would rather die than allow
innocent people to live.
Ray, why do you ruin discussions with personal attacks as if you can
do no better?
If they are found guilty in court they are not innocent.
That is the craziest statement I have ever heard you make. Innocence
is based in fact, not some legal determination.
I take it you feel Clinton was "innocent" since he was found Not Guilty
after being impeached?
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
10 Mar 2005 02:57:22 PM |
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On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:15:24 -0800, "David W. Barnes"
<dbarnes@aol.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<100320050715248742%dbarnes@aol.com> wrote:
In article <aqo0311h9tqjecnnuhbsvdd70724vck9ci@4ax.com>, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:27:25 GMT, (Ray
Fischer) in alt.abortion with message-id <d0oibc$18h$1@bolt.sonic.net>
wrote:
I will never support abolishing the death penalty under any
circumstances for any reason.
Because you're a murderoues lunatic who would rather die than allow
innocent people to live.
Ray, why do you ruin discussions with personal attacks as if you can
do no better?
If they are found guilty in court they are not innocent.
That is the craziest statement I have ever heard you make. Innocence
is based in fact, not some legal determination.
I take it you feel Clinton was "innocent" since he was found Not Guilty
after being impeached?
I think he did it but he was found not guilty so not guilty he is.
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| User: "David W. Barnes" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
10 Mar 2005 08:38:27 PM |
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In article <n4d131hq7neimm3fne2tfmkh88494cceqn@4ax.com>, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:15:24 -0800, "David W. Barnes"
<dbarnes@aol.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<100320050715248742%dbarnes@aol.com> wrote:
In article <aqo0311h9tqjecnnuhbsvdd70724vck9ci@4ax.com>, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:27:25 GMT, (Ray
Fischer) in alt.abortion with message-id <d0oibc$18h$1@bolt.sonic.net>
wrote:
I will never support abolishing the death penalty under any
circumstances for any reason.
Because you're a murderoues lunatic who would rather die than allow
innocent people to live.
Ray, why do you ruin discussions with personal attacks as if you can
do no better?
If they are found guilty in court they are not innocent.
That is the craziest statement I have ever heard you make. Innocence
is based in fact, not some legal determination.
I take it you feel Clinton was "innocent" since he was found Not Guilty
after being impeached?
I think he did it but he was found not guilty so not guilty he is.
Agreed. But is he innocent?
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
10 Mar 2005 09:09:24 PM |
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On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:38:27 -0800, "David W. Barnes"
<dbarnes@aol.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<100320051838271898%dbarnes@aol.com> wrote:
In article <n4d131hq7neimm3fne2tfmkh88494cceqn@4ax.com>, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:15:24 -0800, "David W. Barnes"
<dbarnes@aol.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<100320050715248742%dbarnes@aol.com> wrote:
In article <aqo0311h9tqjecnnuhbsvdd70724vck9ci@4ax.com>, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:27:25 GMT, (Ray
Fischer) in alt.abortion with message-id <d0oibc$18h$1@bolt.sonic.net>
wrote:
I will never support abolishing the death penalty under any
circumstances for any reason.
Because you're a murderoues lunatic who would rather die than allow
innocent people to live.
Ray, why do you ruin discussions with personal attacks as if you can
do no better?
If they are found guilty in court they are not innocent.
That is the craziest statement I have ever heard you make. Innocence
is based in fact, not some legal determination.
I take it you feel Clinton was "innocent" since he was found Not Guilty
after being impeached?
I think he did it but he was found not guilty so not guilty he is.
Agreed. But is he innocent?
The only thing to go on it the finding of the court. Anything else is
speculation.
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| User: "David W. Barnes" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
08 Mar 2005 09:35:09 PM |
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In article <p5qr21pkqgrqi10vnksmpb3evtmoird4q5@4ax.com>, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:11:06 -0800, "David W. Barnes"
<dbarnes@aol.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<080320050811063388%dbarnes@aol.com> wrote:
In article <8idr215bvpl8v56c3jg5hmskc30mtnjlj7@4ax.com>, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
It is murderous insanity to want to see innocent people executed.
I never said that. I do not support ending executions on the chance
one of the convicted may have been convicted in error.
Unless that person were you?
I take my chances with life the same as everyone else.
The only way to be sure no innocent person is executed is not to
execute anyone, and I will not support that.
That is like saying, "I don't support abortion" without justification.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
09 Mar 2005 05:20:48 AM |
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On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 19:35:09 -0800, "David W. Barnes"
<dbarnes@aol.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<080320051935096064%dbarnes@aol.com> wrote:
In article <p5qr21pkqgrqi10vnksmpb3evtmoird4q5@4ax.com>, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:11:06 -0800, "David W. Barnes"
<dbarnes@aol.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<080320050811063388%dbarnes@aol.com> wrote:
In article <8idr215bvpl8v56c3jg5hmskc30mtnjlj7@4ax.com>, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
It is murderous insanity to want to see innocent people executed.
I never said that. I do not support ending executions on the chance
one of the convicted may have been convicted in error.
Unless that person were you?
I take my chances with life the same as everyone else.
The only way to be sure no innocent person is executed is not to
execute anyone, and I will not support that.
That is like saying, "I don't support abortion" without justification.
I have justified my position on execution to all the extent I need.
If it isn't enough for you that is your problem.
I support a continued death penalty with reduced costs, primarily by
speeding up both the appeals process and executions.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
07 Mar 2005 06:45:11 PM |
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On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 23:41:11 GMT, BOB <sd@sd.net> in alt.abortion with
message-id <Xns96129F93157EASD@68.6.19.6> wrote:
Yes. That is no reason to dump the entire system.
I don't think I suggested dumping the entire system but I do think we
should be as absolutely and positively sure as we possibly can be that the
people we execute by law are guilty and deserve that ultimate punishment.
That's all I'm saying.
I recognize a problem exists here but I am not willing to eliminate
executions and the current system of taking ten years or more is
insane. And entirely too expensive.
I have no perfect solution. I have outlined my solution.
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| User: "BOB" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
07 Mar 2005 07:44:38 PM |
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Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
news:p9tp21hf0gac0hm9dnr61ids8kk8grcaq7@4ax.com:
On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 23:41:11 GMT, BOB <sd@sd.net> in alt.abortion with
message-id <Xns96129F93157EASD@68.6.19.6> wrote:
Yes. That is no reason to dump the entire system.
I don't think I suggested dumping the entire system but I do think we
should be as absolutely and positively sure as we possibly can be that
the people we execute by law are guilty and deserve that ultimate
punishment. That's all I'm saying.
I recognize a problem exists here but I am not willing to eliminate
executions and the current system of taking ten years or more is
insane. And entirely too expensive.
I have no perfect solution. I have outlined my solution.
I don't have a perfect solution either. Cheers & Regards
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| User: "David W. Barnes" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
06 Mar 2005 12:46:25 AM |
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In article <19pk21phb1o1dgs8mrgfhfjt8edle2edcn@4ax.com>, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
But does it? Isn't it justice to execute a convicted prisoner?
Not at all.
It unquestionably is.
Maybe in your world.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
06 Mar 2005 05:36:31 AM |
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On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 22:46:25 -0800, "David W. Barnes"
<dbarnes@aol.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<050320052246258632%dbarnes@aol.com> wrote:
In article <19pk21phb1o1dgs8mrgfhfjt8edle2edcn@4ax.com>, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
But does it? Isn't it justice to execute a convicted prisoner?
Not at all.
It unquestionably is.
Maybe in your world.
Which is the real world.
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| User: "Ash" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
02 Mar 2005 03:25:42 PM |
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Attila wrote:
On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 06:25:36 -0800, "David W. Barnes"
<dbarnes@aol.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<020320050625361276%dbarnes@aol.com> wrote:
To some extent punishment deters actions.
Some punishments deter crime. But studies demonstrate that the death
penalty doesn't deter murder. (In fact, there are some indications it
encourages it.) Also, the death penalty is far more expensive than
life in prison.
I know of no executed person who has ever killed again.
No, but often the guilty person has
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| User: "David W. Barnes" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
03 Mar 2005 10:50:25 PM |
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In article <20sb219cbe0trqj4is7l5qf4eb2aor5nhp@4ax.com>, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 06:25:36 -0800, "David W. Barnes"
<dbarnes@aol.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<020320050625361276%dbarnes@aol.com> wrote:
To some extent punishment deters actions.
Some punishments deter crime. But studies demonstrate that the death
penalty doesn't deter murder. (In fact, there are some indications it
encourages it.) Also, the death penalty is far more expensive than
life in prison.
I know of no executed person who has ever killed again.
I know of no executed person who parked illegally again, either. Death
to all parking violators!
As far as expense is concerned I find execution being more expensive
than life in prison mind boggling. If appeals were restricted to a
sane level and executions were carried out faster that would not be
the case.
Better yet. No appeals! What the hell - lets do away with trials.
Too costly.
Six months maximum between sentencing and execution should
be ample opportunity for any appeal.
Except it isn't. Many people have been discovered to be innocent years
after they are found guilty and sentenced to death. You seem rather
cavalier with the lives of others.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
04 Mar 2005 04:07:32 AM |
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On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 20:50:25 -0800, "David W. Barnes"
<dbarnes@aol.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<030320052050250266%dbarnes@aol.com> wrote:
In article <20sb219cbe0trqj4is7l5qf4eb2aor5nhp@4ax.com>, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 06:25:36 -0800, "David W. Barnes"
<dbarnes@aol.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<020320050625361276%dbarnes@aol.com> wrote:
To some extent punishment deters actions.
Some punishments deter crime. But studies demonstrate that the death
penalty doesn't deter murder. (In fact, there are some indications it
encourages it.) Also, the death penalty is far more expensive than
life in prison.
I know of no executed person who has ever killed again.
I know of no executed person who parked illegally again, either. Death
to all parking violators!
I have advocated that for years.
Shall we discuss illegal aliens? Send them back the first time you
catch them and the second time shoot them and throw the bodies over
the fence as a warning to the others.
Border guard would be a part of basic training for the military.
As far as expense is concerned I find execution being more expensive
than life in prison mind boggling. If appeals were restricted to a
sane level and executions were carried out faster that would not be
the case.
Better yet. No appeals! What the hell - lets do away with trials.
Too costly.
No, just limit the appeals and the time to make them.
Six months maximum between sentencing and execution should
be ample opportunity for any appeal.
Except it isn't. Many people have been discovered to be innocent years
after they are found guilty and sentenced to death. You seem rather
cavalier with the lives of others.
Some people. No system is perfect.
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| User: "Nivlem" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
01 Mar 2005 05:47:11 PM |
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On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:27:15 -0500, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 15:16:54 -0500, Adam H. <adam@mailinator.com> in
alt.abortion with message-id
<4dj9211co873ljkuiqhvpclqplu8bcjrlk@4ax.com> wrote:
If they are old enough to kill they are old enough to execute.
Precisely
If they're old enough to execute aren't they old enough to drink a
beer, vote, etc?
There is no correlation between killing and voting or killing and
drinking beer. There is a correlation between killing and punishment.
If they are old enough to kill they are old enough to execute.
I'm not sure about this one. The teenage brain isn't fully
developed. Teenagers often have problems with judgement and
impulse control that may resolve themselves over time. Yeah,
sure. Many of these kids are purely and simply irredeemable
sociopaths, and no great loss should they get jabbed by the
Magic Needle, but how do we know for certain when they're
16?
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| User: "Frank Dwyer" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
01 Mar 2005 06:32:02 PM |
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Nivlem wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:27:15 -0500, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 15:16:54 -0500, Adam H. <adam@mailinator.com> in
alt.abortion with message-id
<4dj9211co873ljkuiqhvpclqplu8bcjrlk@4ax.com> wrote:
If they are old enough to kill they are old enough to execute.
Precisely
If they're old enough to execute aren't they old enough to drink a
beer, vote, etc?
There is no correlation between killing and voting or killing and
drinking beer. There is a correlation between killing and punishment.
If they are old enough to kill they are old enough to execute.
I'm not sure about this one. The teenage brain isn't fully
developed. Teenagers often have problems with judgement and
impulse control that may resolve themselves over time. Yeah,
sure. Many of these kids are purely and simply irredeemable
sociopaths, and no great loss should they get jabbed by the
Magic Needle, but how do we know for certain when they're
16?
That's what aggravating circumstances are for. The punishment would
(should) be wholly dependent upon how heinous an act they commit, no
matter what their mental development.
Mind you, this is referencing teens, not children.
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| User: "Nivlem" |
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| Title: Re: USSC Goes Left |
01 Mar 2005 09:10:49 PM |
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On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 00:32:02 GMT, Frank Dwyer
<fdwyer@XcitlinkX.net> wrote:
Nivlem wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:27:15 -0500, Attila
<prochoice@here.now> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 15:16:54 -0500, Adam H. <adam@mailinator.com> in
alt.abortion with message-id
<4dj9211co873ljkuiqhvpclqplu8bcjrlk@4ax.com> wrote:
If they are old enough to kill they are old enough to execute.
Precisely
If they're old enough to execute aren't they old enough to drink a
beer, vote, etc?
There is no correlation between killing and voting or killing and
drinking beer. There is a correlation between killing and punishment.
If they are old enough to kill they are old enough to execute.
I'm not sure about this one. The teenage brain isn't fully
developed. Teenagers often have problems with judgement and
impulse control that may resolve themselves over time. Yeah,
sure. Many of these kids are purely and simply irredeemable
sociopaths, and no great loss should they get jabbed by the
Magic Needle, but how do we know for certain when they're
16?
That's what aggravating circumstances are for. The punishment would
(should) be wholly dependent upon how heinous an act they commit, no
matter what their mental development.
Mind you, this is referencing teens, not children.
I'm well aware of that. There's increasing scientific
evidence that teenager's brains are much less fully-formed
than many adults would like to assume. Hey, I think we
should be pulling all 16-year-old's driver's licenses.
.
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