| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"maff" |
| Date: |
13 Oct 2004 03:59:22 PM |
| Object: |
'Value in Diversity' |
'Value in Diversity'
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28384-2004Oct12.html
Page A20
ON ITS WEB SITE, the Board of Education of Charles County, in Southern
Maryland, affirms its belief that "there is value in diversity." That
credo is in danger of being distorted by several members of the board.
Among the ideas they are advancing: to have science classes offer
instructional materials that teach creationism and cast doubt on
evolution; to require books that stress America's history as "a
Christian nation"; and to revamp sex education so it is informed by
"theological perspectives of the Founders." Board members would also
invite Gideons International to provide Bibles to students, and cull
school reading lists to ban books offering "a neutral or positive view
of immorality or foul language."
Maryland evolution
http://news.google.com/news?q=Maryland%20evolution&num=100&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?q=Maryland+evolution&num=100&hl=en&lr=&tab=nw&ie=UTF-8&sa=N
http://www.google.com/search?q=Maryland+evolution&num=100&hl=en&lr=&output=search&cat=gwd/Top
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=Maryland%20evolution&safe=images&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
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| User: "Susan S" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
19 Oct 2004 01:55:28 AM |
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In talk.origins I read this message from "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com>:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
Depends on what you mean by right. Is separate but equal equal? Is it
my right to eat at on lunch counter or the proprietor's right to
decide who can eat there.
The proprietors. Which has nothing to do with race, religion,
or creed, and everything to do with rights one has over property. Which
is my primary objection to the notion of "affirmative" action on the
part of the state.
This all implies that the situation pre-AA (and it is not just AA that
Elf objects to, let's remember that) was equitable and benign.
Not at all. I would simply point out that there are a large
number of "inequalities" that, when their legal supports were pulled
from underneath them, declined over time without additional
redress-by-law having to be imposed. There are more women in college
now than men, despite there being little in the way of "affirmative
action" on their behalf.
Clearly you have absolutely no idea about the previous admission
policies of colleges and universities in the U.S. Let me just
say that as a Jewish woman, there are many places I could have
been legally barred from.
Susan Silberstein
[snip]
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| User: "rich hammett" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
19 Oct 2004 11:58:02 AM |
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In talk.origins Susan S <otoeremovethis@ix.netcom.com> sanoi, hitaasti kuin hämähäkki:
In talk.origins I read this message from "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com>:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
Depends on what you mean by right. Is separate but equal equal? Is it
my right to eat at on lunch counter or the proprietor's right to
decide who can eat there.
The proprietors. Which has nothing to do with race, religion,
or creed, and everything to do with rights one has over property. Which
is my primary objection to the notion of "affirmative" action on the
part of the state.
This all implies that the situation pre-AA (and it is not just AA that
Elf objects to, let's remember that) was equitable and benign.
Not at all. I would simply point out that there are a large
number of "inequalities" that, when their legal supports were pulled
from underneath them, declined over time without additional
redress-by-law having to be imposed. There are more women in college
now than men, despite there being little in the way of "affirmative
action" on their behalf.
Clearly you have absolutely no idea about the previous admission
policies of colleges and universities in the U.S. Let me just
say that as a Jewish woman, there are many places I could have
been legally barred from.
I mentioned Isaac Asimov not getting into Columbia
earlier, but he dodged that one.
rich
--
-to reply, it's hot not warm
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world;
\ than the pride that divides
/ when a colorful rag is unfurled."
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 01:44:55 PM |
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 15:07:43 +0000 (UTC), "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
Depends on what you mean by right. Is separate but equal equal? Is it
my right to eat at on lunch counter or the proprietor's right to
decide who can eat there.
The proprietors. Which has nothing to do with race, religion,
or creed, and everything to do with rights one has over property. Which
is my primary objection to the notion of "affirmative" action on the
part of the state.
This all implies that the situation pre-AA (and it is not just AA that
Elf objects to, let's remember that) was equitable and benign.
Not at all. I would simply point out that there are a large
number of "inequalities" that, when their legal supports were pulled
from underneath them, declined over time without additional
redress-by-law having to be imposed.
Yes, when after there was a major effort, including significant
government actions (including the use of troops) things changed over
decades. Did you have an actual point?
There are more women in college
now than men, despite there being little in the way of "affirmative
action" on their behalf.
That you don't know of the affirmative action efforts to get women in
college is your problem.
The law simply has no business telling people what to think.
Telling them who they can serve is not telling them what to think.
I
dislike all discriminatory practices, but I'm especially unfond of those
backed up with the threat of police action.
While the threat of offending the rich people who control the area
(learn something about segregation era southern culture) is benign.
Don't wring your hands and say that discrimination is so bad that you
just can't accept engaging in it via AA.
AA *is* discriminatory, if by "discriminate" you mean to
distinguish between differences. AA is a form of institutionalized
racism; it makes distinctions between people based upon arbitrary
qualities that have nothing to do with their capabilities.
AA is an attempt to fix massive enforced decades long discrimination.
If you need to blame something blame that. But don't tell us that
wishful thinking and the "invisible hand" would have made things
right. There is not the slightest bit of evidence for that at all. The
invisible hand has seemed to allowed discriminated against minorities
to remain poor and powerless around the world.
--
Matt Silberstein
Stones taught me to fly
Love taught me to lie
Life taught me to die
So it's not hard to fall
When you float like a cannonball
Damien Rice
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 12:40:33 PM |
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 15:07:43 +0000 (UTC), "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
Depends on what you mean by right. Is separate but equal equal? Is it
my right to eat at on lunch counter or the proprietor's right to
decide who can eat there.
The proprietors. Which has nothing to do with race, religion,
or creed, and everything to do with rights one has over property. Which
is my primary objection to the notion of "affirmative" action on the
part of the state.
This all implies that the situation pre-AA (and it is not just AA that
Elf objects to, let's remember that) was equitable and benign.
Not at all. I would simply point out that there are a large
number of "inequalities" that, when their legal supports were pulled
from underneath them, declined over time without additional
redress-by-law having to be imposed. There are more women in college
now than men, despite there being little in the way of "affirmative
action" on their behalf.
The law simply has no business telling people what to think. I
dislike all discriminatory practices, but I'm especially unfond of those
backed up with the threat of police action.
Don't wring your hands and say that discrimination is so bad that you
just can't accept engaging in it via AA.
AA *is* discriminatory, if by "discriminate" you mean to
distinguish between differences. AA is a form of institutionalized
racism; it makes distinctions between people based upon arbitrary
qualities that have nothing to do with their capabilities.
Pragmatism says this can help society reduce problems which is what
Government is for.
If you have a greater percentage of black policemen, then the
perception that black have of the law being white people out to get us
can be greatly reduced.
If banks are forced to give small businesses in poor non white areas
loans, then those areas clean up themselves as the businesses have a
stock in having their neighborhood not be a slum. (this is well
proven)
If public positions of power are mixed, then society becomes less
divided and more focused on resolving problems.
It would be nice to have all these problems just fade away naturally
as people come to see that discrimination is wrong, but it's a major
pain while that happens, perhaps for centuries.
Personally as a white man, you may find yourself legally discriminated
against and you think this is wrong, but in your solution, in other
circumstances you could be even more strongly discriminated against.
In your ideology, in that case you think you should just live with it.
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| User: "Bob Casanova" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 03:52:15 PM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 23:35:12 +0000 (UTC), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by
(John Wilkins):
Elf M. Sternberg <elf@drizzle.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
It is not often you see someone longing for the days when the darkies
knew their place.
That's rude, insulting, and blatantly false. All I want is
equality before the law. Is that too much to ask?
Elf
I'm with Elf, here. Matt, that was wrong.
The argument over equal opportunity versus affirmative action is not
between those who are racists and those who are enlightened...
No, it isn't. Thanks.
--
Bob C.
Reply to Bob-Casanova @ worldnet.att.net
(without the spaces, of course)
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 01:28:07 PM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:15:33 +0000 (UTC),
Elf M. Sternberg <elf@drizzle.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
It is not often you see someone longing for the days when the darkies
knew their place.
That's rude, insulting, and blatantly false. All I want is
equality before the law. Is that too much to ask?
That's what minorities want as well. If society and governments deny them
those equal rights, then what?
--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
"My illness is due to my doctor's insistence that I drink milk, a
whitish fluid they force down helpless babies." - WC Fields
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
14 Oct 2004 10:24:51 PM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:15:33 +0000 (UTC), "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
It is not often you see someone longing for the days when the darkies
knew their place.
That's rude, insulting, and blatantly false. All I want is
equality before the law. Is that too much to ask?
No, it is too little. There is much more to equity in society than
equality before the law. In fact, if you don't have reasonable
equality in society you don't get equality before the law. You are
either grossly ignorant of the conditions leading to the civil rights
laws or you don't care what would have happened and what was happening
to millions of people lacking de facto equality.
--
Matt Silberstein
Stones taught me to fly
Love taught me to lie
Life taught me to die
So it's not hard to fall
When you float like a cannonball
Damien Rice
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| User: "Elf M. Sternberg" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 10:16:12 AM |
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Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:15:33 +0000 (UTC), "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com> wrote:
That's rude, insulting, and blatantly false. All I want is
equality before the law. Is that too much to ask?
No, it is too little.
Then you and I are not going to see eye-to-eye at all. Because
once you start using the force of law to redistribute power and wealth
based on arbitrary criteria, you are using the force of law for
discriminatory ("recognizing or perceiving a difference") purposes that
have nothing to do with the capabilities of individuals, and you have no
criteria whatsoever for turning off that bureaucratic monstrosity other
than "now it makes me uncomfortable."
Elf
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 01:53:03 PM |
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 15:16:12 +0000 (UTC), "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:15:33 +0000 (UTC), "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com> wrote:
That's rude, insulting, and blatantly false. All I want is
equality before the law. Is that too much to ask?
No, it is too little.
Then you and I are not going to see eye-to-eye at all.
Particularly if you snip out arguments rather than dealing with them.
Because
once you start using the force of law to redistribute power and wealth
based on arbitrary criteria, you are using the force of law for
discriminatory ("recognizing or perceiving a difference") purposes that
have nothing to do with the capabilities of individuals, and you have no
criteria whatsoever for turning off that bureaucratic monstrosity other
than "now it makes me uncomfortable."
Life's a *****, isn't it. This country has a whole bunch of middle
class and up white boys who think that they had some level playing
field. Equality under the law is only one part of equality in society.
Here is what you snipped, respond or not as you see fit:
In fact, if you don't have reasonable
equality in society you don't get equality before the law. You are
either grossly ignorant of the conditions leading to the civil rights
laws or you don't care what would have happened and what was happening
to millions of people lacking de facto equality.
--
Matt Silberstein
Stones taught me to fly
Love taught me to lie
Life taught me to die
So it's not hard to fall
When you float like a cannonball
Damien Rice
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| User: "Bob Casanova" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 03:52:14 PM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:15:33 +0000 (UTC), the following
appeared in talk.origins, posted by "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com>:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
It is not often you see someone longing for the days when the darkies
knew their place.
That's rude, insulting, and blatantly false. All I want is
equality before the law. Is that too much to ask?
I agree. But that sort of knee-jerk reaction when certain
subjects come up is to be expected, and it isn't a liberal
monopoly. Being somewhat familiar with Matt's postings, I
doubt he even thought about it before blasting away. If he
had, his post undoubtedly would have been more rational (as
they usually are).
--
Bob C.
Reply to Bob-Casanova @ worldnet.att.net
(without the spaces, of course)
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov
.
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
14 Oct 2004 10:07:27 PM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:58:09 +0000 (UTC), "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
I'm generally opposed to civil rights legislation on the grounds
that it enforces something as straightforward as basic manners with
goverment action and its legitimate monopoly on violence.
All civil right legislation?
Yes. I'm generally a liberatarian minarchist; the government's
sole reaon for existing is to be the singular institution in society
with a monopoly on legitimate violence. This is such an awesome
responsibility that it must be used with the utmost care, and dictating
manners is far beyond any reasonable scope. If an employer wants to
forgo the most competent person for a given job because of sex, race,
whatever... let 'em. Their loss.
That's an awful easy statement to make when you are a white male.
Try working for years and find later that every man in the place was
making twice what you were making hidden by a confidential salary
rule. Or try to make a living when you are a member of a
discriminated group, such as black/mixed in vietnam or female in
Afghanistan.
As a group, we become more effective, more secure and a better society
to live in if there is a set of ground rules that level the playing
field. That strong fast people are not allowed to grab the food out
of other people's hands is no different than a strong company not
being allowed to abuse it's workers. Businesses should not have
advantages over citizens.
.
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| User: "Elf M. Sternberg" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 10:28:31 AM |
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(Kate ) writes:
That's an awful easy statement to make when you are a white male.
Yes, it is. I admit that.
Elf
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| User: "Rich Mathers" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 03:47:38 PM |
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Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
cobalt@newscene.com (Kate ) writes:
That's an awful easy statement to make when you are a white male.
Yes, it is. I admit that.
Elf
I for one appreciate your honesty here.
RAM
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| User: "Elf M. Sternberg" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 04:48:41 PM |
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Rich Mathers <R-Mathers@wiu.edu> writes:
Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
cobalt@newscene.com (Kate ) writes:
That's an awful easy statement to make when you are a white male.
Yes, it is. I admit that.
I for one appreciate your honesty here.
*Shrug* It's true. I don't have a stake in this argument and my
position is quite effectively the minority one, so I'm not about to
wander down to the library and do massive research and defend my
position with facts and figures. I may be "wrong" in some people's
eyes; they come from axiomatically different positions than I do about
the role of government in addressing current inequities based on past
actions. The government is the only agency that can *force* redress,
and I don't think that's government's role. This discussion is merely a
consequence of that principle.
Elf
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 11:37:09 PM |
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 21:48:41 +0000 (UTC),
Elf M. Sternberg <elf@drizzle.com> wrote:
Rich Mathers <R-Mathers@wiu.edu> writes:
Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
cobalt@newscene.com (Kate ) writes:
That's an awful easy statement to make when you are a white male.
Yes, it is. I admit that.
I for one appreciate your honesty here.
*Shrug* It's true. I don't have a stake in this argument and my
position is quite effectively the minority one, so I'm not about to
wander down to the library and do massive research and defend my
position with facts and figures. I may be "wrong" in some people's
eyes; they come from axiomatically different positions than I do about
the role of government in addressing current inequities based on past
actions. The government is the only agency that can *force* redress,
and I don't think that's government's role. This discussion is merely a
consequence of that principle.
Surely it is the government's business to enforce the Constitution, is it
not?
--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
"My illness is due to my doctor's insistence that I drink milk, a
whitish fluid they force down helpless babies." - WC Fields
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
19 Oct 2004 03:20:49 PM |
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On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 04:37:09 +0000 (UTC), AC
<mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 21:48:41 +0000 (UTC),
Elf M. Sternberg <elf@drizzle.com> wrote:
Rich Mathers <R-Mathers@wiu.edu> writes:
Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
cobalt@newscene.com (Kate ) writes:
That's an awful easy statement to make when you are a white male.
Yes, it is. I admit that.
I for one appreciate your honesty here.
*Shrug* It's true. I don't have a stake in this argument and my
position is quite effectively the minority one, so I'm not about to
wander down to the library and do massive research and defend my
position with facts and figures. I may be "wrong" in some people's
eyes; they come from axiomatically different positions than I do about
the role of government in addressing current inequities based on past
actions. The government is the only agency that can *force* redress,
and I don't think that's government's role. This discussion is merely a
consequence of that principle.
Surely it is the government's business to enforce the Constitution, is it
not?
It would be nice, instead of wiping their arses with it.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Vote for Bush. Why vote for the lesser of two evils?
No matter the candidates the superstition industry wins.
'Jesus' is a sock-puppet Christians utilize to add 'authority' to
whatever action they intend on taking. -Stoney
And Duty Imp and Rapscallion
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| User: "Gary Bohn" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 10:56:27 AM |
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(Kate ) wrote in
news:417a3c12.565315375@news-west.newscene.com:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:58:09 +0000 (UTC), "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
I'm generally opposed to civil rights legislation on the
grounds
that it enforces something as straightforward as basic manners with
goverment action and its legitimate monopoly on violence.
All civil right legislation?
Yes. I'm generally a liberatarian minarchist; the
government's
sole reaon for existing is to be the singular institution in society
with a monopoly on legitimate violence. This is such an awesome
responsibility that it must be used with the utmost care, and
dictating manners is far beyond any reasonable scope. If an employer
wants to forgo the most competent person for a given job because of
sex, race, whatever... let 'em. Their loss.
That's an awful easy statement to make when you are a white male.
Try working for years and find later that every man in the place was
making twice what you were making hidden by a confidential salary
rule. Or try to make a living when you are a member of a
discriminated group, such as black/mixed in vietnam or female in
Afghanistan.
As a group, we become more effective, more secure and a better society
to live in if there is a set of ground rules that level the playing
field. That strong fast people are not allowed to grab the food out
of other people's hands is no different than a strong company not
being allowed to abuse it's workers. Businesses should not have
advantages over citizens.
Well said Kate.
--
apatriot #23, aa #1779, Grand Poobah (Pubbah)(Hell! head honcho), EAC
Department of Oxygen Deprivation Responsible for brain damage
everywhere!
Gary Bohn
Conservatism is the political philosophy that it ain't broke so don't
try to fix it. Therefore, if that is indeed how it is, that is what
ought to be.
The Wilkins
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| User: "Dick C" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 11:48:06 AM |
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Kate wrote in talk.origins
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:58:09 +0000 (UTC), "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
I'm generally opposed to civil rights legislation on the
grounds
that it enforces something as straightforward as basic manners with
goverment action and its legitimate monopoly on violence.
All civil right legislation?
Yes. I'm generally a liberatarian minarchist; the government's
sole reaon for existing is to be the singular institution in society
with a monopoly on legitimate violence. This is such an awesome
responsibility that it must be used with the utmost care, and dictating
manners is far beyond any reasonable scope. If an employer wants to
forgo the most competent person for a given job because of sex, race,
whatever... let 'em. Their loss.
That's an awful easy statement to make when you are a white male.
Try working for years and find later that every man in the place was
making twice what you were making hidden by a confidential salary
rule. Or try to make a living when you are a member of a
discriminated group, such as black/mixed in vietnam or female in
Afghanistan.
It should be apparent that the laws are needed because human nature
is not very kind. While there are many people who will not discriminate,
there are always a very large percentage of people who will. Not just
in Afghanistan, but right here in America. We can see it historically,
and we can see it in our everyday lifes.
As a group, we become more effective, more secure and a better society
to live in if there is a set of ground rules that level the playing
field. That strong fast people are not allowed to grab the food out
of other people's hands is no different than a strong company not
being allowed to abuse it's workers. Businesses should not have
advantages over citizens.
Careful, you might scare our current administration.
--
***** #1349
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
~Benjamin Franklin
Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com
email:
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| User: "Elf M. Sternberg" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 01:46:17 PM |
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***** C <foo.dickcr@comcast.net> writes:
Careful, you might scare our current administration.
The current administration *should* be scared. I can't wait to
see Rummy, Connie, *****, and Colin all publish their memoirs in their
desperate attempts to point the finger somewhere-- anywhere-- else.
Elf (Yeah, I'm shrill.)
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 01:16:23 PM |
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 03:07:27 +0000 (UTC), (Kate )
thought hard and said:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:58:09 +0000 (UTC), "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
I'm generally opposed to civil rights legislation on the grounds
that it enforces something as straightforward as basic manners with
goverment action and its legitimate monopoly on violence.
All civil right legislation?
Yes. I'm generally a liberatarian minarchist; the government's
sole reaon for existing is to be the singular institution in society
with a monopoly on legitimate violence. This is such an awesome
responsibility that it must be used with the utmost care, and dictating
manners is far beyond any reasonable scope. If an employer wants to
forgo the most competent person for a given job because of sex, race,
whatever... let 'em. Their loss.
That's an awful easy statement to make when you are a white male.
Try working for years and find later that every man in the place was
making twice what you were making hidden by a confidential salary
rule. Or try to make a living when you are a member of a
discriminated group, such as black/mixed in vietnam or female in
Afghanistan.
As a group, we become more effective, more secure and a better society
to live in if there is a set of ground rules that level the playing
field.
And lowering standards makes everyone equal, no?
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
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| User: "Robert Grumbine" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 01:49:38 PM |
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In article <5b50n0peo35c68hjuvilb3j5vqv8sgjoh3@4ax.com>,
Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 03:07:27 +0000 (UTC), (Kate )
thought hard and said:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:58:09 +0000 (UTC), "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
I'm generally opposed to civil rights legislation on the grounds
that it enforces something as straightforward as basic manners with
goverment action and its legitimate monopoly on violence.
All civil right legislation?
Yes. I'm generally a liberatarian minarchist; the government's
sole reaon for existing is to be the singular institution in society
with a monopoly on legitimate violence. This is such an awesome
responsibility that it must be used with the utmost care, and dictating
manners is far beyond any reasonable scope. If an employer wants to
forgo the most competent person for a given job because of sex, race,
whatever... let 'em. Their loss.
That's an awful easy statement to make when you are a white male.
Try working for years and find later that every man in the place was
making twice what you were making hidden by a confidential salary
rule. Or try to make a living when you are a member of a
discriminated group, such as black/mixed in vietnam or female in
Afghanistan.
As a group, we become more effective, more secure and a better society
to live in if there is a set of ground rules that level the playing
field.
And lowering standards makes everyone equal, no?
Crap. Standard line of racists that not discriminating against
people by race is 'lowering standards'.
The 'standard' you're defending is simply one of deciding how
closely an applicant matches "wealthy, white, male, middle-aged,
anglo-saxon, protestant".
Dumping that 'standard' in favor of things actually relevant to
job performance is a wonderful _raising_ of standards.
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 03:40:36 PM |
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 18:16:23 +0000 (UTC), Daniel Kolle
<DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 03:07:27 +0000 (UTC), (Kate )
thought hard and said:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:58:09 +0000 (UTC), "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
I'm generally opposed to civil rights legislation on the grounds
that it enforces something as straightforward as basic manners with
goverment action and its legitimate monopoly on violence.
All civil right legislation?
Yes. I'm generally a liberatarian minarchist; the government's
sole reaon for existing is to be the singular institution in society
with a monopoly on legitimate violence. This is such an awesome
responsibility that it must be used with the utmost care, and dictating
manners is far beyond any reasonable scope. If an employer wants to
forgo the most competent person for a given job because of sex, race,
whatever... let 'em. Their loss.
That's an awful easy statement to make when you are a white male.
Try working for years and find later that every man in the place was
making twice what you were making hidden by a confidential salary
rule. Or try to make a living when you are a member of a
discriminated group, such as black/mixed in vietnam or female in
Afghanistan.
As a group, we become more effective, more secure and a better society
to live in if there is a set of ground rules that level the playing
field.
And lowering standards makes everyone equal, no?
How is lowering the standards to make a law that says you must hire
the most qualified person no matter what their race or sex is?
Please keep up Daniel. You are mixing up the threads.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
19 Oct 2004 04:12:05 PM |
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 18:16:23 +0000 (UTC), Daniel Kolle
<DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 03:07:27 +0000 (UTC), (Kate )
thought hard and said:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:58:09 +0000 (UTC), "Elf M. Sternberg"
<elf@drizzle.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writes:
I'm generally opposed to civil rights legislation on the grounds
that it enforces something as straightforward as basic manners with
goverment action and its legitimate monopoly on violence.
All civil right legislation?
Yes. I'm generally a liberatarian minarchist; the government's
sole reaon for existing is to be the singular institution in society
with a monopoly on legitimate violence. This is such an awesome
responsibility that it must be used with the utmost care, and dictating
manners is far beyond any reasonable scope. If an employer wants to
forgo the most competent person for a given job because of sex, race,
whatever... let 'em. Their loss.
That's an awful easy statement to make when you are a white male.
Try working for years and find later that every man in the place was
making twice what you were making hidden by a confidential salary
rule. Or try to make a living when you are a member of a
discriminated group, such as black/mixed in vietnam or female in
Afghanistan.
As a group, we become more effective, more secure and a better society
to live in if there is a set of ground rules that level the playing
field.
And lowering standards makes everyone equal, no?
Outcome Based Education did that quite a few years ago. (shrug)
I'm not aware of any state which hasn't installed the failed "Mastery
Learning" (Chicago, Ill. 1968) with a new name.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Vote for Bush. Why vote for the lesser of two evils?
No matter the candidates the superstition industry wins.
'Jesus' is a sock-puppet Christians utilize to add 'authority' to
whatever action they intend on taking. -Stoney
And Duty Imp and Rapscallion
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
15 Oct 2004 01:54:24 PM |
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 18:16:23 +0000 (UTC), Daniel Kolle
<DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
And lowering standards makes everyone equal, no?
The goal is to try to fix problems caused by years and years of de
facto and de jure discrimination. If you have a problem, blame the
previous discrimination. If you can think of a better solution to the
problem, suggest it. But don't think that wishing makes the problem go
away.
--
Matt Silberstein
Stones taught me to fly
Love taught me to lie
Life taught me to die
So it's not hard to fall
When you float like a cannonball
Damien Rice
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| User: "Mark Atwood" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
19 Oct 2004 12:13:07 PM |
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Susan S <otoeremovethis@ix.netcom.com> writes:
number of "inequalities" that, when their legal supports were pulled
from underneath them, declined over time without additional
redress-by-law having to be imposed. There are more women in college
now than men, despite there being little in the way of "affirmative
action" on their behalf.
Clearly you have absolutely no idea about the previous admission
policies of colleges and universities in the U.S. Let me just
say that as a Jewish woman, there are many places I could have
been legally barred from.
And now that publicly funded colleges and universities have had the
legal means of legally barring you removed, do you need Affirmative
Action to be admitted?
Yes? No?
--
Mark Atwood | When you do things right, people won't be sure
mra@pobox.com | you've done anything at all.
http://www.pobox.com/~mra | http://www.livejournal.com/users/fallenpegasus
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
14 Oct 2004 11:55:25 AM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:04:39 +0000 (UTC), (maff)
thought hard and said:
Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<94orm0pbph75f2c7rpup23q3hl715sndi4@4ax.com>...
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 01:37:26 +0000 (UTC), "Alan Jeffery"
<observa_no_spam@xtra.co.nz> thought hard and said:
"Daniel Kolle" <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:audrm0tt307f5b053mn29l1piak2viv0vm@4ax.com...
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:59:22 +0000 (UTC), (maff)
thought hard and said:
'Value in Diversity'
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28384-2004Oct12.html
Page A20
ON ITS WEB SITE, the Board of Education of Charles County, in Southern
Maryland, affirms its belief that "there is value in diversity." That
credo is in danger of being distorted by several members of the board.
Among the ideas they are advancing: to have science classes offer
instructional materials that teach creationism
<snip>
Oh! I thought you talking about that other type of diversity. You
know, the ***** one all the universities and colleges love to talk
about.
Just to make sure there is no confusion. Please explain what that is.
Alan Jeffery
My omment is about affirmative action. Its proponents claim it
increases diversity. Diversity is overrated.
Maybe, maybe not. You certainly can do business with fellow fascists
Wow. What a fucking moron.
*plonk*
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
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| User: "Gary Bohn" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
14 Oct 2004 07:03:47 PM |
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Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:v5ctm0lhtqd9l4fpthap8r9770jft12omo@4ax.com:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:04:39 +0000 (UTC), (maff)
thought hard and said:
Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<94orm0pbph75f2c7rpup23q3hl715sndi4@4ax.com>...
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 01:37:26 +0000 (UTC), "Alan Jeffery"
<observa_no_spam@xtra.co.nz> thought hard and said:
"Daniel Kolle" <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:audrm0tt307f5b053mn29l1piak2viv0vm@4ax.com...
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:59:22 +0000 (UTC), (maff)
thought hard and said:
'Value in Diversity'
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28384-2004Oct12.ht
ml
Page A20
ON ITS WEB SITE, the Board of Education of Charles County, in
Southern Maryland, affirms its belief that "there is value in
diversity." That credo is in danger of being distorted by
several members of the board. Among the ideas they are
advancing: to have science classes offer instructional materials
that teach creationism
<snip>
Oh! I thought you talking about that other type of diversity. You
know, the ***** one all the universities and colleges love to
talk about.
Just to make sure there is no confusion. Please explain what that
is.
Alan Jeffery
My omment is about affirmative action. Its proponents claim it
increases diversity. Diversity is overrated.
Maybe, maybe not. You certainly can do business with fellow fascists
Wow. What a fucking moron.
*plonk*
Instead of plonking people, try defending your statement.
What is it about AA that you dispise?
--
apatriot #23, aa #1779, Grand Poobah (Pubbah)(Hell! head honcho), EAC
Department of Oxygen Deprivation Responsible for brain damage
everywhere!
Gary Bohn
Conservatism is the political philosophy that it ain't broke so don't
try to fix it. Therefore, if that is indeed how it is, that is what
ought to be.
The Wilkins
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
19 Oct 2004 04:22:31 PM |
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 00:03:47 +0000 (UTC), Gary Bohn
<garybohn@REMOVETHISaccesscomm.ca> wrote:
Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:v5ctm0lhtqd9l4fpthap8r9770jft12omo@4ax.com:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:04:39 +0000 (UTC), (maff)
thought hard and said:
Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<94orm0pbph75f2c7rpup23q3hl715sndi4@4ax.com>...
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 01:37:26 +0000 (UTC), "Alan Jeffery"
<observa_no_spam@xtra.co.nz> thought hard and said:
"Daniel Kolle" <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:audrm0tt307f5b053mn29l1piak2viv0vm@4ax.com...
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:59:22 +0000 (UTC), (maff)
thought hard and said:
'Value in Diversity'
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28384-2004Oct12.ht
ml
Page A20
ON ITS WEB SITE, the Board of Education of Charles County, in
Southern Maryland, affirms its belief that "there is value in
diversity." That credo is in danger of being distorted by
several members of the board. Among the ideas they are
advancing: to have science classes offer instructional materials
that teach creationism
<snip>
Oh! I thought you talking about that other type of diversity. You
know, the ***** one all the universities and colleges love to
talk about.
Just to make sure there is no confusion. Please explain what that
is.
Alan Jeffery
My omment is about affirmative action. Its proponents claim it
increases diversity. Diversity is overrated.
Maybe, maybe not. You certainly can do business with fellow fascists
Wow. What a fucking moron.
*plonk*
Instead of plonking people, try defending your statement.
Defending or explaining his statement?
What is it about AA that you dispise?
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Vote for Bush. Why vote for the lesser of two evils?
No matter the candidates the superstition industry wins.
'Jesus' is a sock-puppet Christians utilize to add 'authority' to
whatever action they intend on taking. -Stoney
And Duty Imp and Rapscallion
.
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| User: "rich hammett" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
14 Oct 2004 12:57:46 PM |
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In talk.origins Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com> sanoi, hitaasti kuin hämähäkki:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 01:37:26 +0000 (UTC), "Alan Jeffery"
<observa_no_spam@xtra.co.nz> thought hard and said:
"Daniel Kolle" <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:audrm0tt307f5b053mn29l1piak2viv0vm@4ax.com...
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:59:22 +0000 (UTC), (maff)
thought hard and said:
'Value in Diversity'
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28384-2004Oct12.html
Page A20
ON ITS WEB SITE, the Board of Education of Charles County, in Southern
Maryland, affirms its belief that "there is value in diversity." That
credo is in danger of being distorted by several members of the board.
Among the ideas they are advancing: to have science classes offer
instructional materials that teach creationism
<snip>
Oh! I thought you talking about that other type of diversity. You
know, the ***** one all the universities and colleges love to talk
about.
Just to make sure there is no confusion. Please explain what that is.
My omment is about affirmative action. Its proponents claim it
increases diversity. Diversity is overrated.
Yep, we should go back to the days when Isaac Asimov couldn't get
into Columbia because he was too "diverse" for them.
rich
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
--
-to reply, it's hot not warm
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world;
\ than the pride that divides
/ when a colorful rag is unfurled."
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| User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass" |
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| Title: Re: 'Value in Diversity' |
14 Oct 2004 01:51:37 AM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 02:08:58 +0000 (UTC), Daniel Kolle
<DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 01:37:26 +0000 (UTC), "Alan Jeffery"
<observa_no_spam@xtra.co.nz> thought hard and said:
"Daniel Kolle" <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:audrm0tt307f5b053mn29l1piak2viv0vm@4ax.com...
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:59:22 +0000 (UTC), (maff)
thought hard and said:
'Value in Diversity'
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28384-2004Oct12.html
Page A20
ON ITS WEB SITE, the Board of Education of Charles County, in Southern
Maryland, affirms its belief that "there is value in diversity." That
credo is in danger of being distorted by several members of the board.
Among the ideas they are advancing: to have science classes offer
instructional materials that teach creationism
<snip>
Oh! I thought you talking about that other type of diversity. You
know, the ***** one all the universities and colleges love to talk
about.
Just to make sure there is no confusion. Please explain what that is.
Alan Jeffery
My omment is about affirmative action. Its proponents claim it
increases diversity. Diversity is overrated.
Since you need the university more than the university needs you
(unless you play football really well, in which case disregard
everything below). The correct question is not what the university can
do for you but what you can do for the university.
In that light, the minority white student enrolling at Grambling
University probably generate more interest to the administration than
the all the other African American students, because that white kid
will bring with him something farily unique/different to the Grambling
college experience.
So the question you should ask youself it, what can you bring to the
college that you want to go to? A distinct cultual background? A
particular talent that no one else has? A particulat story of personal
triumph that reflects well on the univerity? Of all the other
applicants a university can pick why should they pick you over them?
These aren't hypothetical questions. At UC Irvine there was a female
student of Vietnamese descent. She was abndoned by her parents, went
through 3 or 4 foster homes as a kid, the courts had to intervene
because her biologica father tried to kill her. And through all this
she somehow made to school. If it were only one spot left between you
and her and you have a slightly higher GPA than she does, I can
guarantee you 10 time out of 10 she gets in before you. Why? Because
she'll contribute more to the university's mission/culture/image/brand
than you can. Which brings back to my point- you need to figure out
what you can bring to the table.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -3 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1075 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.
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