Vatican not impressed with threat to sue over access to archives

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Auric Hellman"
Date:	30 Jan 2005 07:03:22 PM
Object:	Vatican not impressed with threat to sue over access to archives

The Jews should learn to mind their own damn business and leave the
Catholic Church alone. Jews should be grateful for all the lives the
Holy See saved, not ***** about the ones who couldn't be saved.
VATICAN-ARCHIVES Jan-28-2005 (830 words) Backgrounder. xxxi
Vatican not impressed with threat to sue over access to archives
By John Thavis
Catholic News Service
VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- A Jewish group's recent threat to sue for access
to church archives left Vatican officials unimpressed.
"It doesn't make much sense, if you know how archives function. We
certainly aren't going to be intimidated," said one church expert.
Rabbi Shmuel Herzfeld, vice president of the Coalition for Jewish
Concerns, said in Washington Jan. 27 that his group would take legal
action unless the Vatican Secret Archives were opened within a week.
The group believes the material could identify Jewish children baptized
as Catholics during World War II.
There are a couple of reasons why such demands for documents are not
taken very seriously at the Vatican.
For one thing, delayed opening of archival materials -- typically from
50 to 100 years -- is a practice adopted by states all over the world,
for technical reasons and to protect archives from contemporary
political pressures.
Second, the Vatican has made extraordinary efforts to open some
document sections in advance in recent years -- only to find that very
few scholars bother to examine the material.
"It's strange. It seems that if they can't find confirmation of their
predetermined but undocumented theories, the archives can be
forgotten," said Father Sergio Pagano, prefect of the Vatican Secret
Archives.
Father Pagano told the Italian newspaper Avvenire in January that only
a trickle of experts is examining the documents regarding Vatican
relations with Germany from 1922 to 1939; those documents were made
available last fall, ahead of schedule.
The Vatican archives also had seven employees work for three years
collating more than 3 million documents on the Holy See's quiet efforts
to help prisoners of war during World War II. The material was opened
last May; so far, only 10 European scholars have come to do research,
Father Pagano said.
"Sometimes you get the impression that some scholars, whose voices are
perhaps amplified too much by the media, demand the opening of the
Vatican archives as if they wanted to battle their way into a secret
fortress," Father Pagano said.
"But when the doors open and the documents can be consulted, those who
seemed interested don't show up, or come for what is basically a
tourist visit," he said.
In the Vatican's view, the recent controversy over a document
discovered in France illustrates the dangers of amateur archival
research.
The letter, discovered in French church archives, purportedly was
approved by Pope Pius XII. It said Jewish children who had been
baptized to save them from the Nazis were to be entrusted only to
families or institutions that would guarantee their continuing
education in the faith.
Jewish groups pounced on the text, saying it proved that the Vatican
under Pope Pius XII did not want baptized Jewish children returned to
their parents.
But Vatican experts quickly pointed out that the letter was an unsigned
summary of church policies, with no clear indication of source. It was
written in French and was not found in the archives of the papal
nunciature in France.
Then a more complete version of the letter emerged, clarifying that
church leaders were speaking of abandoned Jewish children who were in
the care of church institutions, not children whose parents wanted them
back.
"It would be another thing if the children were requested back by the
parents," said the letter.
At the Vatican, Father Pagano oversees more than 50 miles of shelved
archival documents, and the material just keeps growing. For example,
he said, over the last six years, more than 5 million pieces of paper
have been added to the collection.
The material is opened by pontificate, and next year the Vatican Secret
Archives will make available documents from the papacy of Pope Pius XI,
1922-1939.
One reason for the delay is the monumental task of collecting,
numbering and organizing the documents for consultation. At the
Vatican, each document is double-checked for details like protocol
numbers, handwritten notations and envelope information, so that its
precise context can be established.
"It's a long, painstaking and difficult work," Father Pagano said.
For those who see something sinister in keeping all this information
under lock and key, Father Pagano cites the opinions of other
professional archivists, who say that letting historical documents sit
untouched for several decades reduces the chance of their destruction
or exploitation by people who lived too close to the period.
There are a few exceptions to the closed-door rule, however.
Postulators working on sainthood causes may gain admission to the
unopened archives if they need to research the life of the would-be
saint.
The reason, said one church official in Rome, is that the Vatican
doesn't want information springing up in the future that could call
into question the holiness of someone already canonized.
Postulators cannot publish or divulge information gathered during these
advance viewings of archival material, and for each visit they need
permission from the Vatican secretary of state. For the church's saint
makers, it's the ultimate background check.
END
.

User: "Enkidu"
Title: Re: Vatican not impressed with threat to sue over access to archives	30 Jan 2005 09:27:59 PM

"Auric Hellman" <adhellman@volcanomail.com> wrote in
news:1107111802.683463.274040@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

How many? A few dozen? A hundred? A few thousand? That's nothing
compared to the 750,000 Serbs, 60,000 Jews and 26,000 Roma killed in
Yugoslavia alone. The Catholic church was very much complicit in their
deaths.
--
Enkidu AA# 2165
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
Attributed to Epicurus 341-270 B.C.E.
.

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Vatican not impressed with threat to sue over access to archives	30 Jan 2005 10:57:09 PM

"Enkidu" <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote in message
news:Xns95EE88FD3443enkiduleaddogsorg@68.6.19.6...

"Auric Hellman" <adhellman@volcanomail.com> wrote in
news:1107111802.683463.274040@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

And, as usual, Hellman gets it wrong - on all acounts.
The documents being asked for are about the Jewish children stolen by the
Vatican and not only raised as Xians, but converted to Xianity, without the
consent of the parents.
Susan

--
Enkidu AA# 2165
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
Attributed to Epicurus 341-270 B.C.E.

User: "Uncle Buck"
Title: Re: Vatican not impressed with threat to sue over access to archives	30 Jan 2005 07:07:19 PM

Auric Hellman wrote:

The Jews should learn to mind their own damn business and leave the
Catholic Church alone.

The last time they didn't concern themselves with the Catholic church
was in the 1930's-1940's. Hmmnn... I wonder why they don't still think
that's such a good idea? :-?
.

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Vatican not impressed with threat to sue over access to archives	30 Jan 2005 10:55:45 PM

"Uncle Buck" <UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:HeaLd.7718$gS5.6784@bignews3.bellsouth.net...

Auric Hellman wrote:

The Jews should learn to mind their own damn business and leave the
Catholic Church alone.

The last time they didn't concern themselves with the Catholic church was
in the 1930's-1940's. Hmmnn... I wonder why they don't still think
that's such a good idea? :-?

Because of people like "Auric Hellman" who pretend that Jewish business
w/the Vatican isn't Jewish because he hates Jews.
Susan
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: Vatican not impressed with threat to sue over access to archives	02 Feb 2005 03:41:47 AM

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:55:45 GMT, "Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net>
wrote:

"Uncle Buck" <UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:HeaLd.7718$gS5.6784@bignews3.bellsouth.net...

Auric Hellman wrote:

The Jews should learn to mind their own damn business and leave the
Catholic Church alone.

The last time they didn't concern themselves with the Catholic church was
in the 1930's-1940's. Hmmnn... I wonder why they don't still think
that's such a good idea? :-?

Because of people like "Auric Hellman" who pretend that Jewish business
w/the Vatican isn't Jewish because he hates Jews.

Susan, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but "Auric Hellman and his
*kind*" don't hate Jews. That's Christian brand 'LOVE(tm).' :\

Susan

--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Vatican not impressed with threat to sue over access to archives	02 Feb 2005 03:55:21 AM

"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:0ti001dfl5g2d59h5su7qksgljo6ibml1a@4ax.com...

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:55:45 GMT, "Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net>
wrote:

Because of people like "Auric Hellman" who pretend that Jewish business
w/the Vatican isn't Jewish because he hates Jews.

Susan, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but "Auric Hellman and his
*kind*" don't hate Jews. That's Christian brand 'LOVE(tm).' :\

Rather, it's their perversion of it, & it *is* the same as hating Jews.
Susan
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: Vatican not impressed with threat to sue over access to archives	03 Feb 2005 12:38:37 AM

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 03:55:21 GMT, "Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net>
wrote:

"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:0ti001dfl5g2d59h5su7qksgljo6ibml1a@4ax.com...

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:55:45 GMT, "Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net>
wrote:

Because of people like "Auric Hellman" who pretend that Jewish business
w/the Vatican isn't Jewish because he hates Jews.

Susan, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but "Auric Hellman and his
*kind*" don't hate Jews. That's Christian brand 'LOVE(tm).' :\

Rather, it's their perversion of it, & it *is* the same as hating Jews.

That was partially tongue in cheek and I was mocking Hellman and his
braindead kind.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Vatican not impressed with threat to sue over access to archives	03 Feb 2005 01:58:17 AM

"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:4js20197q1vi1g6nej46vq2og5a9l011jf@4ax.com...

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 03:55:21 GMT, "Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net>
wrote:

"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:0ti001dfl5g2d59h5su7qksgljo6ibml1a@4ax.com...

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:55:45 GMT, "Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net>
wrote:

Because of people like "Auric Hellman" who pretend that Jewish business
w/the Vatican isn't Jewish because he hates Jews.

Susan, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but "Auric Hellman and his
*kind*" don't hate Jews. That's Christian brand 'LOVE(tm).' :\

Rather, it's their perversion of it, & it *is* the same as hating Jews.

That was partially tongue in cheek and I was mocking Hellman and his
braindead kind.

I figured, but just wanted to throw out myusual caveat :-)
Susan

--

Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.

Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.

America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: Vatican not impressed with threat to sue over access to archives	04 Feb 2005 09:23:41 PM

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 01:58:17 GMT, "Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net>
wrote: