Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"El Kabong poki_pongo at yahoo dot com"
Date:	21 Mar 2005 04:36:15 PM
Object:	Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope

Video showing the dark-haired woman appearing to interact with her
family has been televised nationally. But a court-appointed doctor has
said the noises and facial expressions are merely reflexes.
But in Schiavo's condition, described as a persistent vegetative
state, family members can be deceived by things like eye movements and
reflexes, experts say.
"It creates this ironic combination of wakefulness without awareness,"
said Dr. James Bernat, a neurology professor at Dartmouth Medical
School.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=534&e=5&u=/ap/20050321/ap_on_he_me/brain_damaged_woman_condition
Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope

By MALCOLM RITTER, AP Science Writer
NEW YORK - In the family video played over and over on TV, Terri
Schiavo seems to gaze fondly at her mother, with the hint of a smile.
On Sunday night, as Congress took up debate on her case, her father
told reporters that she responded to his teasing by making a face at
him. "It tells us she's still with us," he said.

But in Schiavo's condition, described as a persistent vegetative
state, family members can be deceived by things like eye movements and
reflexes, experts say.
"It creates this ironic combination of wakefulness without awareness,"
said Dr. James Bernat, a neurology professor at Dartmouth Medical
School.
That's because in a persistent vegetative state, the brain centers
that control wakefulness are functioning, but those that permit
conscious awareness of oneself or the environment are damaged or
destroyed.
As a result, patients close their eyes to sleep and open them when
they wake up. If a doctor brushes the eyeball with a wisp of cotton,
they may blink. If something gets caught in the throat, they will
cough. There may be limited eye movements, though patients can't
follow a person walking from one side of the room to another, for
example.
That's in contrast to a coma, in which the eyes remain closed and a
person is neither aware nor awake, or brain death, in which there is
no sign at all that the brain is functioning.
Bernat, past chairman of the American Academy of Neurology (news - web
sites)'s Ethics, Law and Humanities Committee, declined to comment
specifically on the Schiavo case. He said outward signs of persistent
vegetative state can give family members false hope.
"There's a normal tendency of family members to interpret (random)
movements as evidence of awareness," said Bernat, who recalled seeing
that happen with his own patients.
He said that when family members claim that a loved one in a
persistent vegetative state is purposefully looking at them, he asks
to accompany them to the bedside and see for himself. Sometimes, in
fact, family members really have noticed genuine signs of
consciousness and investigation shows the diagnosis was incorrect, he
said. But in his experience, Bernat said, most of the time the family
has been wrong.
Nobody can enter a patient's mind and discover what that person is
experiencing, he noted. Doctors can only say that despite what family
members might believe, "to the best of our ability we cannot convince
ourselves there is any evidence of awareness," Bernat said. Doctors
try to help the family understand how it's possible to be awake but
not aware, he said.
Patients can recover after even a year or two in a persistent
vegetative state caused by head trauma, Bernat said, although they
generally continue to be disabled. However, he said a vegetative state
that was caused by lack of blood or oxygen delivery to the brain and
has gone on more than five years is considered permanent.
Schiavo, 41, has been at the center of a long and bitter court battle
between her parents and her husband, who wants to remove her feeding
tube so she can die.
Court-appointed doctors say Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative
state, after her heart stopped beating temporarily 15 years ago,
cutting off oxygen to her brain. She did not leave any written
instructions about care, but her husband, Michael Schiavo, contends
she told him that she would not want to be kept alive artificially.
Her parents dispute that, and deny their daughter is in a vegetative
state.
Video showing the dark-haired woman appearing to interact with her
family has been televised nationally. But a court-appointed doctor has
said the noises and facial expressions are merely reflexes.
In caring for a person in a this condition, doctors are guided by what
the patient would have wanted, Bernat said. Some have indicated they
want to be treated while others have said they want to be left to die,
he said.
Usually patients can breathe without a ventilator. As in the Schiavo
case, long-term care involves a feeding tube to deliver fluids and
food to the stomach. If family members ask to stop treatment, the tube
is removed or medical teams are instructed not to treat infections,
Bernat said.
+
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw

Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html
The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html
NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
.

User: "Paul Duca"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	23 Mar 2005 06:41:35 AM

in article q3r141h09i4ngrore41cl31ei53bnssgj3@4ax.com, CB at
country2000@hotmail.com wrote on 3/22/05 11:12 PM:

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 02:29:44 GMT, Don <- - - - - --- somebody@worldwide.net>
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:55:36 -0500, "Doc: The
absent-minded-professor!" <Doc@Watson.yup> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:36:15 -0500, El Kabong <poki_pongo at yahoo dot
com> sez the following funny stuff:

But a court-appointed doctor has
said the noises and facial expressions are merely reflexes.

Where did that so-called 'kjudge' get his medical degree to make such
a diagnostic reference?

ONE: It is the DOCTOR who has the medical degree.

TWO: Who is going to pay for her medical expenses for the next twenty
to thirty years? Who is gonna pay for it?

Her parents

THREE: Who is gonna change her urine bags every day? Who is gonna
change her diaper for the next twenty to thirty years?

Her parents.

And what happens after THEY die?
Paul
.

User: "CB"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	22 Mar 2005 01:03:06 PM

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:55:36 -0500, "Doc: The absent-minded-professor!"
<Doc@Watson.yup> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:36:15 -0500, El Kabong <poki_pongo at yahoo dot
com> sez the following funny stuff:

But a court-appointed doctor has
said the noises and facial expressions are merely reflexes.

Where did that so-called 'kjudge' get his medical degree to make such
a diagnostic reference?

I think it's called "insurance money".
I believe greer was paid off.
"Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance."
Author Unknown
.

User: "Cary Kittrell"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	23 Mar 2005 10:33:24 AM

In article<auq041lg92jvv3lq08n0pn1gkgc93bb1c2@4ax.com> <country2000@hotmail.com> writes:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:55:36 -0500, "Doc: The absent-minded-professor!"
<Doc@Watson.yup> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:36:15 -0500, El Kabong <poki_pongo at yahoo dot
com> sez the following funny stuff:

But a court-appointed doctor has
said the noises and facial expressions are merely reflexes.

Where did that so-called 'kjudge' get his medical degree to make such
a diagnostic reference?

I think it's called "insurance money".
I believe greer was paid off.

This case has been heard by 19 judges in six courts. The
Supreme Court has refused to hear it three times.
That's an awful lot of payoffs, CB.
-- cary
.

User: "CB"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	23 Mar 2005 11:32:36 AM

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:33:24 +0000 (UTC),

(Cary
Kittrell) wrote:

In article<auq041lg92jvv3lq08n0pn1gkgc93bb1c2@4ax.com> <country2000@hotmail.com> writes:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:55:36 -0500, "Doc: The absent-minded-professor!"
<Doc@Watson.yup> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:36:15 -0500, El Kabong <poki_pongo at yahoo dot
com> sez the following funny stuff:

But a court-appointed doctor has
said the noises and facial expressions are merely reflexes.

Where did that so-called 'kjudge' get his medical degree to make such
a diagnostic reference?

I think it's called "insurance money".
I believe greer was paid off.

This case has been heard by 19 judges in six courts. The
Supreme Court has refused to hear it three times.

That's an awful lot of payoffs, CB.

I said "greer".
Nevertheless, Terri has never been represented in court.
Only her scumbag husband has been represented.

-- cary

"Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance."
Author Unknown
.

User: "Cary Kittrell"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	23 Mar 2005 11:54:27 AM

In article <ev9341dkvr7fpftapjtmq0jcrc5ol369cj@4ax.com> CB <country2000@hotmail.com> writes:

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:33:24 +0000 (UTC),

(Cary
Kittrell) wrote:

In article<auq041lg92jvv3lq08n0pn1gkgc93bb1c2@4ax.com> <country2000@hotmail.com> writes:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:55:36 -0500, "Doc: The absent-minded-professor!"
<Doc@Watson.yup> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:36:15 -0500, El Kabong <poki_pongo at yahoo dot
com> sez the following funny stuff:

But a court-appointed doctor has
said the noises and facial expressions are merely reflexes.

Where did that so-called 'kjudge' get his medical degree to make such
a diagnostic reference?

I think it's called "insurance money".
I believe greer was paid off.

This case has been heard by 19 judges in six courts. The
Supreme Court has refused to hear it three times.

That's an awful lot of payoffs, CB.

I said "greer".

You did indeed. Which hardly explains the consistent rulings
against the parents' case involving the 18 other judges
and five other courts. You think Greer had to be paid
to agree with what one and one half dozen other judges
had held?

Nevertheless, Terri has never been represented in court.
Only her scumbag husband has been represented.

I beg your pardon? Terri has not been represented?
By my informal count, the Schindlers have either
taken part in trial or have filed motions on
fifteen completely sepearate and individual occasions;
these motions have resulted in over twenty-five
rulings by various courts.
How is this "not represented"?
And that's ignoring, of course, legislative and/or
judicial attempts at intervention by the Florida
Department of Children and Family, the Florida
State Legislature, the Governor of Florida, and the
United States Congress. Every one of these attempted
interventions on Terri's behalf was brought before
a judge. How is all this a failure of judicial representation?
-- cary
.

User: "CB"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	23 Mar 2005 12:32:07 PM

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:54:27 +0000 (UTC),

(Cary
Kittrell) wrote:

In article <ev9341dkvr7fpftapjtmq0jcrc5ol369cj@4ax.com> CB <country2000@hotmail.com> writes:

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:33:24 +0000 (UTC),

(Cary
Kittrell) wrote:

In article<auq041lg92jvv3lq08n0pn1gkgc93bb1c2@4ax.com> <country2000@hotmail.com> writes:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:55:36 -0500, "Doc: The absent-minded-professor!"
<Doc@Watson.yup> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:36:15 -0500, El Kabong <poki_pongo at yahoo dot
com> sez the following funny stuff:

But a court-appointed doctor has
said the noises and facial expressions are merely reflexes.

Where did that so-called 'kjudge' get his medical degree to make such
a diagnostic reference?

I think it's called "insurance money".
I believe greer was paid off.

This case has been heard by 19 judges in six courts. The
Supreme Court has refused to hear it three times.

That's an awful lot of payoffs, CB.

I said "greer".

In actuality, no.
I do think he is no better than a murderer.

Nevertheless, Terri has never been represented in court.
Only her scumbag husband has been represented.

I see you have not been keeping up.
Or are you just another of those who want her dead?
Question: Why doesn't scumbag just give custody to her parents?

And that's ignoring, of course, legislative and/or
judicial attempts at intervention by the Florida
Department of Children and Family, the Florida
State Legislature, the Governor of Florida, and the
United States Congress. Every one of these attempted
interventions on Terri's behalf was brought before
a judge. How is all this a failure of judicial representation?

The judicial system is out of control.
They think they are some kind of gods.
They try to make law like some kind of super legislature instead of
interpreting law.
I hope you never find yourself in the Schlinders position.
But you would probabaly want to kill your kid rather than treat her.
Can you tell me when was the last time Terri had any rehabilitation?
Why not? Many doctors have sworn that she could improve with rehabilitation.
Let me see: a baby cannot feed himself unless someone sticks a bottle in his
mouth. You think the mother should just let the baby die?
I'm glad I don't know you!
Try to keep up with what's going on in the world and turn off your dan blather
news.

-- cary

"Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance."
Author Unknown
.

User: "Cary Kittrell"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	23 Mar 2005 12:46:47 PM

In article <s1d341l5oj5u3ko3kiia5ie4t911ac7j8l@4ax.com> CB <country2000@hotmail.com> writes:

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:54:27 +0000 (UTC),

(Cary
Kittrell) wrote:

In article <ev9341dkvr7fpftapjtmq0jcrc5ol369cj@4ax.com> CB <country2000@hotmail.com> writes:

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:33:24 +0000 (UTC),

(Cary
Kittrell) wrote:

In article<auq041lg92jvv3lq08n0pn1gkgc93bb1c2@4ax.com> <country2000@hotmail.com> writes:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:55:36 -0500, "Doc: The absent-minded-professor!"
<Doc@Watson.yup> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:36:15 -0500, El Kabong <poki_pongo at yahoo dot
com> sez the following funny stuff:

But a court-appointed doctor has
said the noises and facial expressions are merely reflexes.

Where did that so-called 'kjudge' get his medical degree to make such
a diagnostic reference?

I think it's called "insurance money".
I believe greer was paid off.

This case has been heard by 19 judges in six courts. The
Supreme Court has refused to hear it three times.

That's an awful lot of payoffs, CB.

I said "greer".

In actuality, no.
I do think he is no better than a murderer.

Nevertheless, Terri has never been represented in court.
Only her scumbag husband has been represented.

I see you have not been keeping up.

I give you in informal count of the entire history of this
case, and I'm the one "not keeping up"?
Then I suggest you tell me how fifteen court trials and
motions brought before the courts by the parents is
a failure of representation.

Or are you just another of those who want her dead?
Question: Why doesn't scumbag just give custody to her parents?

Part of me agrees with that. And I recently suggested just that to a
very close friend: assuming that Terri is long gone, and thus
is in no pain, why not let the parents keep her "alive"
indefinitely?
My close friend replied that if it were her in that bed, she would
regard this as the most horrifyingly disrespectful act
that anyone could commit on her body, a complete violation
of what was left of her own self. It would appall
her than anyone would even consider thus desecrating her memory.
Not everyone feels about this as you do. Many good people
regard it as an act of mercy. Consider my friend's reaction.

The judicial system is out of control.
They think they are some kind of gods.
They try to make law like some kind of super legislature instead of
interpreting law.

Some specifics, please, of how any judge overstepped his bounds
in any of these rulings. Note that "I don't like the ruling"
is not a valid piece of legal scholarship.

I hope you never find yourself in the Schlinders position.

No one related to me will ever find themselves in the Schindler's
position -- if it was me in that bed, my loved ones would have pulled
the plug long long ago. Because I have made it quite clear to them
that I will haunt them forever if they fail to pull that plug on me.
Again: not everyone sees this in the same terms you do.

But you would probabaly want to kill your kid rather than treat her.
Can you tell me when was the last time Terri had any rehabilitation?
Why not? Many doctors have sworn that she could improve with rehabilitation.

Terri received "aggressive physical therapy" as far back as 1991. It didn't
help.
The above-mentioned friend has worked in radiology. She took one look
at the CT scan of Terri's brain, available on an internet near you,
and immediately commented: "there's nothing left there".
We're not talking about murdering a living individual. We're tallking about meat.
-- cary
.

User: "Doc: The absent-minded-professor!"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	24 Mar 2005 09:30:12 AM

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:46:47 +0000 (UTC),

(Cary Kittrell) sez the following funny stuff:

Not everyone feels about this as you do. Many good people
regard it as an act of mercy. Consider my friend's reaction.

There is NO MERCY in forcing a person to STARVE TO DEATH.
Even a young lad who tried to give Terri some water yesterday
afternoon was hauled out IN HANDCUFFS.
What the HELL is this world coming to?
What CRIME did that boy commit in trying to aid a woman desperately in
need of a sip of water?
.

User: "Douglas Berry"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	24 Mar 2005 03:57:01 PM

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:30:12 -0500, "Doc: The
absent-minded-professor!" <Doc@Watson.yup> drained his beer, leaned
back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following

What CRIME did that boy commit in trying to aid a woman desperately in
need of a sip of water?

Pouring water in the mouth of someone lacking a swallowing reflex will
drown that person.
That kid would have killed Terri, you ignorant *****.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
.

User: "CB"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	24 Mar 2005 05:33:50 PM

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:57:01 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:30:12 -0500, "Doc: The
absent-minded-professor!" <Doc@Watson.yup> drained his beer, leaned
back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following

What CRIME did that boy commit in trying to aid a woman desperately in
need of a sip of water?

Pouring water in the mouth of someone lacking a swallowing reflex will
drown that person.

That kid would have killed Terri, you ignorant *****.

That's a lie.
Why don't you study the situation before making a staement like that?
And why would you be worried that she would die?
She has taken drinks of water before.
But you wouldn't know that because you listen to dan blather & his cohorts.
"Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance."
Author Unknown
.

User: "CB"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	23 Mar 2005 04:11:59 PM

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:46:47 +0000 (UTC),

(Cary
Kittrell) wrote:

I see you have not been keeping up.

I give you in informal count of the entire history of this
case, and I'm the one "not keeping up"?

yes.

Then I suggest you tell me how fifteen court trials and
motions brought before the courts by the parents is
a failure of representation.

Again, michael schiavo was represented, not Terri.

Or are you just another of those who want her dead?
Question: Why doesn't scumbag just give custody to her parents?

It's not.

she would
regard this as the most horrifyingly disrespectful act
that anyone could commit on her body, a complete violation
of what was left of her own self. It would appall
her than anyone would even consider thus desecrating her memory.

Not everyone feels about this as you do. Many good people
regard it as an act of mercy. Consider my friend's reaction.

I did.
I think it's murder.
Would you sacrifice one of your children?

The judicial system is out of control.
They think they are some kind of gods.
They try to make law like some kind of super legislature instead of
interpreting law.

Some specifics, please, of how any judge overstepped his bounds
in any of these rulings. Note that "I don't like the ruling"
is not a valid piece of legal scholarship.

They ignored the law.
They did not allow Terri to be represented.

I hope you never find yourself in the Schlinders position.

No one related to me will ever find themselves in the Schindler's
position -- if it was me in that bed, my loved ones would have pulled
the plug long long ago.

Why am I not surprised?

Because I have made it quite clear to them
that I will haunt them forever if they fail to pull that plug on me.

Hint: a feeding tune is not life support.
I guess you think that any mother who does not want her child can just keep
the baby's bottle away and let it starve to death.
After all, the baby cannot verbalize, just like Terri.

Again: not everyone sees this in the same terms you do.

Most do.

Terri received "aggressive physical therapy" as far back as 1991. It didn't
help.

sure.

The above-mentioned friend has worked in radiology. She took one look
at the CT scan of Terri's brain, available on an internet near you,
and immediately commented: "there's nothing left there".

Is she a doctor?
Why are the doctors that say she has a sense of awareness being ignored?

We're not talking about murdering a living individual. We're tallking about meat.

It's murder.
You can justify it anyway you want.
BTW, why did it take michael schiavo 7 years to remember that Terri said she
did not want to live that way.
It's a case of "he said she said". ,
And I don't believe the scumbag.

-- cary

"Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance."
Author Unknown
.

User: "Cary Kittrell"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	23 Mar 2005 06:55:29 PM

In article <vtp341lb5cgi53o3fr54ej8840o8m7vl29@4ax.com> CB <country2000@hotmail.com> writes:

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:46:47 +0000 (UTC),

(Cary
Kittrell) wrote:

I see you have not been keeping up.

I give you in informal count of the entire history of this
case, and I'm the one "not keeping up"?

yes.

Then I suggest you tell me how fifteen court trials and
motions brought before the courts by the parents is
a failure of representation.

Again, michael schiavo was represented, not Terri.

Ah, perhaps I have mis-read you.
So you think that having Terri's parents going to court for her --
not to mention the legislative and executive branches of the
state of Florida intervening with the courts on her behalf
-- doesn't count, because Terri herself did not bop into some
lawyer's office and hire the lawyer herself?
Hint: she can't do that -- which is rather the point here, isn't it?
Or do you feel that once a person has become brain dead, no legal
decisions may be made regarding that person, as that person is
incapable of hiring a lawyer?
And if that is not what you are saying, I can only ask: how would you have
had Terri obtain represention then?
{...}

Not everyone feels about this as you do. Many good people
regard it as an act of mercy. Consider my friend's reaction.

I did.
I think it's murder.
Would you sacrifice one of your children?

If I had a child in Terri's condition, I earnestly hope that for
that child's sake I could arrange for her dignified end. Why
should I do less for my child than I do for my pets, when there
is no hope left for them?
{...}

The judicial system is out of control.
They think they are some kind of gods.
They try to make law like some kind of super legislature instead of
interpreting law.

Some specifics, please, of how any judge overstepped his bounds
in any of these rulings. Note that "I don't like the ruling"
is not a valid piece of legal scholarship.

They ignored the law.
They did not allow Terri to be represented.

Very interesting. Perhaps you are aware of something I am not.
How did Terri attempt to have herself representated, and how
was her effort rebuffed?

I hope you never find yourself in the Schlinders position.

No one related to me will ever find themselves in the Schindler's
position -- if it was me in that bed, my loved ones would have pulled
the plug long long ago.

Why am I not surprised?

Because I have made it quite clear to them
that I will haunt them forever if they fail to pull that plug on me.

Hint: a feeding tune is not life support.

So you'd have no objections to its removal, since it's not
life support?
In any event, we need a better way to do this thing than starvation
and deyhdration. A friend of mine died just last year in this very
manner -- food and water being withheld. This was done in exact
accordance with her wishes. She had terminal cancer. Her express
wishes were followed to the letter... but if our society had the balls to
face up to situations such as my friend's dilemma, there
would have been a more dignified way, a merciful overdose.

I guess you think that any mother who does not want her child can just keep
the baby's bottle away and let it starve to death.

I guess you you're out of logical and considered argument if you have
to resort to putting such words in my mouth.
Of course I do not advocate euthenasia for someone with life left
to live. Terri has none.
{...}

Terri received "aggressive physical therapy" as far back as 1991. It didn't
help.

sure.

Oh? Do you also know something about the results of this attempted
therapy that I do not? If so, I would like to learn about it.
Please point me to the source of your information.
-- cary
.

User: "CB"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	23 Mar 2005 07:53:13 PM

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 00:55:29 +0000 (UTC),

(Cary
Kittrell) wrote:

In article <vtp341lb5cgi53o3fr54ej8840o8m7vl29@4ax.com> CB <country2000@hotmail.com> writes:

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:46:47 +0000 (UTC),

(Cary
Kittrell) wrote:

I see you have not been keeping up.

I give you in informal count of the entire history of this
case, and I'm the one "not keeping up"?

yes.

Then I suggest you tell me how fifteen court trials and
motions brought before the courts by the parents is
a failure of representation.

Again, michael schiavo was represented, not Terri.

You haven't been keeping up have you?
Please listen to some objective news instead of dan blather.

Hint: she can't do that -- which is rather the point here, isn't it?
Or do you feel that once a person has become brain dead, no legal
decisions may be made regarding that person, as that person is
incapable of hiring a lawyer?

And if that is not what you are saying, I can only ask: how would you have
had Terri obtain represention then?

{...}

Not everyone feels about this as you do. Many good people
regard it as an act of mercy. Consider my friend's reaction.

I did.
I think it's murder.
Would you sacrifice one of your children?

If I had a child in Terri's condition, I earnestly hope that for
that child's sake I could arrange for her dignified end.

Why not use "the needle"
..That's a humane way the murderers die, right?
What crime did Terri commit?

Why
should I do less for my child than I do for my pets, when there
is no hope left for them?

You could go to prison for starving your pets but I guess it's ok to starve a
baby because it can't feed itself, right?

{...}

The judicial system is out of control.
They think they are some kind of gods.
They try to make law like some kind of super legislature instead of
interpreting law.

Some specifics, please, of how any judge overstepped his bounds
in any of these rulings. Note that "I don't like the ruling"
is not a valid piece of legal scholarship.

They ignored the law.
They did not allow Terri to be represented.

Very interesting. Perhaps you are aware of something I am not.

I would not be surprised.
You evidently get your news from dan blather on cnn (clinton news network)

How did Terri attempt to have herself representated, and how
was her effort rebuffed?

\She has never been represented.
What do you think this is all about?

I hope you never find yourself in the Schlinders position.

No one related to me will ever find themselves in the Schindler's
position -- if it was me in that bed, my loved ones would have pulled
the plug long long ago.

Why am I not surprised?

Because I have made it quite clear to them
that I will haunt them forever if they fail to pull that plug on me.

Hint: a feeding tune is not life support.

So you'd have no objections to its removal, since it's not
life support?

A baby has the right to be fed.
So does Terri.

In any event, we need a better way to do this thing than starvation
and deyhdration.

ah, we agree.

A friend of mine died just last year in this very
manner -- food and water being withheld. This was done in exact
accordance with her wishes. She had terminal cancer. Her express
wishes were followed to the letter... but if our society had the balls to
face up to situations such as my friend's dilemma, there
would have been a more dignified way, a merciful overdose.

Your friend evidently had a living will.
Terri did not and I don't believe her scumbag husband.
Are you aware that he wants to have her cremated immediately?
Why would that be since it is against her religion?
What do you think michael scumbag is trying to hide?
Why has she never had an MRI?
a CT scan?
Why did she have to have 4 teeth pulled?
Why did only "court appointed doctors" have the right to examine her?
One for only 45 minutes out of 15 years?

I guess you think that any mother who does not want her child can just keep
the baby's bottle away and let it starve to death.

I guess you you're out of logical and considered argument if you have
to resort to putting such words in my mouth.

Of course I do not advocate euthenasia for someone with life left
to live. Terri has none.

Again, study the facts.

{...}

Terri received "aggressive physical therapy" as far back as 1991. It didn't
help.

sure.

Oh? Do you also know something about the results of this attempted
therapy that I do not? If so, I would like to learn about it.
Please point me to the source of your information.

Why did it take michael scumbag 7 years to decide Terri wanted to die?
from http://www.terrisfight.org
MYTH: Terri is PVS (Persistent vegetative state)
FACT: The definition of PVS in Florida Statue 765.101:
Persistent vegetative state means a permanent and irreversible condition of
unconsciousness in which there is:
(a) The absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of ANY kind.
(b) An inability to communicate or interact purposefully with the environment.
Terri's behavior does not meet the medical or statutory definition of
persistent vegetative state. Terri responds to stimuli, tries to communicate
verbally, follows limited commands, laughs or cries in interaction with loved
ones, physically distances herself from irritating or painful stimulation and
watches loved ones as they move around her. None of these behaviors are simple
reflexes and are, instead, voluntary and cognitive. Though Terri has
limitations, she does interact purposefully with her environment.
Time line:
Feb - Terri Collapses in her home
May - Terri discharged from Humana Hospital in St Petersburg, Florida.
Dec - Terri taken to California for experimental implant

1991
Feb - Terri moved to home with husband.
Jan - Terri moved to Bradenton Mediplex Rehabilitation Center.
Apr - Terri's condition is assessed as improving.
Apr - Terri's husband advised to move her to Gainesville Rehabilitation Center
to receive advanced therapy to continue Terri's recovery.
Jul - Terri moved to Sable Palms Nursing Home.

1992
Aug - Terri awarded $250,000 in malpractice settlement.
Nov - Terri awarded $1.4 million in malpractice trial.
Nov - Michael Schiavo awarded $600,000 in malpractice trial.

1993
Feb - Michael Schiavo denies recommended rehabilitation treatment.
Feb - Schiavo and Terri's parents have falling out regarding lack of therapy
for Terri.
Feb - Schiavo withholds medical information from Terri's parents.
Feb - Schiavo posts Do not Resuscitate order in Terri's medical chart.
Jun - Schiavo threatens Schindler family with lawsuit.
Aug - Schiavo orders medical staff not to treat Terri for potentially fatal
infection.
Sep - Bob and Mary Schindler petition courts to remove Schiavo as Terri's
guardian.
Nov - Schiavo admits in deposition that he knew withholding treatment of
infection could result in Terri's death.

-- cary

Spend a few hours like I did instead of just deciding she is a vegetable.
"Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance."
Author Unknown
.

User: "Paul Duca"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	23 Mar 2005 11:04:22 PM

CB's only interest in this is his wet dream that it will lead to an
abortion ban, and once again Protestants will outbreed Catholics.
Paul
.

User: "Eric Brze"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	24 Mar 2005 01:50:08 AM

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:53:13 -0600, CB <country2000@hotmail.com>
wrote:
snip

Spend a few hours like I did instead of just deciding she is a vegetable.

Regardless what you think of Terri's husband, Terri is gone.
Prolonging her death will only make her suffer even more.

"Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance."
Author Unknown

Not like you, the sad thing about Terri is she will never be able to
dance, and you still insist her to stay. Put yourself in her
situation, what would you choose?
.

User: "CB"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	24 Mar 2005 10:10:45 AM

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 02:50:08 -0500, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:53:13 -0600, CB <country2000@hotmail.com>
wrote:

snip

Spend a few hours like I did instead of just deciding she is a vegetable.

Regardless what you think of Terri's husband, Terri is gone.
Prolonging her death will only make her suffer even more.

If she "is not there", what harm would it do to let her family have her?

Not like you, the sad thing about Terri is she will never be able to
dance, and you still insist her to stay. Put yourself in her
situation, what would you choose?

I would have compassion on my family.
"Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance."
Author Unknown
.

User: "Eric Brze"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	24 Mar 2005 03:00:23 PM

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:10:45 -0600, CB <country2000@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 02:50:08 -0500, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:53:13 -0600, CB <country2000@hotmail.com>
wrote:

snip

Spend a few hours like I did instead of just deciding she is a vegetable.

Regardless what you think of Terri's husband, Terri is gone.
Prolonging her death will only make her suffer even more.

If she "is not there", what harm would it do to let her family have her?

By prolonging her death, you delay her journey to meet Jesus. It shows
your senseless disrespect to her living soul. Her soul can't leave her
body, yet her soul can't have a real life either. I suppose, in the
judgment day, you wouldn't mind for Jesus to treat your soul as you
have done to Terri's soul, would you?

Not like you, the sad thing about Terri is she will never be able to
dance, and you still insist her to stay. Put yourself in her
situation, what would you choose?

I would have compassion on my family.

If you were in Terri's situation, you would have compassion on her
family? What kind of logic is that? I'm afraid Terri is the one who is
suffering the most in this situation.

"Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance."
Author Unknown

So you don't really care about the situation of Terri who can not
really dance as long as you can dance. You wouldn't mind for Terri to
suffer in bed for the next 20~30 years. Is that right?
.

User: "CB"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	24 Mar 2005 05:31:41 PM

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:00:23 -0500, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:10:45 -0600, CB <country2000@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 02:50:08 -0500, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:53:13 -0600, CB <country2000@hotmail.com>
wrote:

snip

Spend a few hours like I did instead of just deciding she is a vegetable.

Regardless what you think of Terri's husband, Terri is gone.
Prolonging her death will only make her suffer even more.

If she "is not there", what harm would it do to let her family have her?

Not like you, the sad thing about Terri is she will never be able to
dance, and you still insist her to stay. Put yourself in her
situation, what would you choose?

I would have compassion on my family.

If you were in Terri's situation, you would have compassion on her
family? What kind of logic is that? I'm afraid Terri is the one who is
suffering the most in this situation.

Your hypocrisy is showing again.
According to the murderers, Terri can feel no pain.

So you don't really care about the situation of Terri who can not
really dance as long as you can dance. You wouldn't mind for Terri to
suffer in bed for the next 20~30 years. Is that right?

See above, hypocrite.
"Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance."
Author Unknown
.

User: "Eric Brze"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	24 Mar 2005 05:57:02 PM

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:31:41 -0600, CB <country2000@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:00:23 -0500, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:10:45 -0600, CB <country2000@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 02:50:08 -0500, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote:

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:53:13 -0600, CB <country2000@hotmail.com>
wrote:

snip

Spend a few hours like I did instead of just deciding she is a vegetable.

Regardless what you think of Terri's husband, Terri is gone.
Prolonging her death will only make her suffer even more.

If she "is not there", what harm would it do to let her family have her?

Interesting you didn't respond my above comment.

Not like you, the sad thing about Terri is she will never be able to
dance, and you still insist her to stay. Put yourself in her
situation, what would you choose?

I would have compassion on my family.

If you were in Terri's situation, you would have compassion on her
family? What kind of logic is that? I'm afraid Terri is the one who is
suffering the most in this situation.

Your hypocrisy is showing again.
According to the murderers, Terri can feel no pain.

You are mistaking me with somebody else. I'm not talking about
sympathetic about Terri's pain. She does not feel pain. I'm talking
about your disrespect to her living soul. I fear her soul will ask
Jesus for justice and revenge for being put under such humiliating
situation by you and the others.

So you don't really care about the situation of Terri who can not
really dance as long as you can dance. You wouldn't mind for Terri to
suffer in bed for the next 20~30 years. Is that right?

See above, hypocrite.

"Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance."
Author Unknown

User: "Robibnikoff"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	24 Mar 2005 07:14:31 PM

"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:5jk641dundtj22b5u5rht59ccpv104iq50@4ax.com...
snip

Oh brother.
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.

User: "Eric Brze"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	25 Mar 2005 04:03:54 AM

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:14:31 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:5jk641dundtj22b5u5rht59ccpv104iq50@4ax.com...

snip

Oh brother.

Huh? Was I too harsh on him?
:-)
.

User: "Robibnikoff"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	25 Mar 2005 07:21:18 AM

"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:hdl7419n0a0s9lmfh7jd6t7rv4ej15pqf4@4ax.com...

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:14:31 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:5jk641dundtj22b5u5rht59ccpv104iq50@4ax.com...

snip

Oh brother.

Huh? Was I too harsh on him?

Harsh on who?
No, I was just commenting on that whole, "I fear her soul will ask Jesus for
justice" nonsense. What a crock. Not to mention, that's none of your
business anyway.
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.

User: "Eric Brze"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	25 Mar 2005 03:04:29 PM

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:21:18 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:hdl7419n0a0s9lmfh7jd6t7rv4ej15pqf4@4ax.com...

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:14:31 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:5jk641dundtj22b5u5rht59ccpv104iq50@4ax.com...

snip

Oh brother.

Huh? Was I too harsh on him?

Harsh on who?

No, I was just commenting on that whole, "I fear her soul will ask Jesus for
justice" nonsense. What a crock.

You are right. Maybe I shouldn't have said that. I should learn better
ways to express myself.
Not to mention, that's none of your

business anyway.

Correct again. Thank you.
:-)
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	27 Mar 2005 03:17:50 PM

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:14:31 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:5jk641dundtj22b5u5rht59ccpv104iq50@4ax.com...

snip

Oh brother.

Yeah, flatulent brze still sputters.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.

User: "CB"
Title: Re: Vegetative State Can Give Kin False Hope	24 Mar 2005 09:23:08 PM

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:57:02 -0500, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote: