On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 15:57:24 -0700, johac wrote:

In article <vZCdnVHHjagZ-RfbnZ2dnUVZ_rXinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:

On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 22:06:41 -0700, johac wrote:

In article <3NudnRn8XoDbfBrbnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:

On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 00:17:02 -0700, johac wrote:

In article <MxDhi.7434$nE2.6208@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
"Pt. Lurk" <Pt. Lurk@renvcom.net> wrote:

...and the neo-con mindset share the fundamental features of
projection, paranoia, and hostility towards empirical evidence...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC6L0WFo1Go&mode=related&search=

That's remarkable! The clip was showing events from the late '70s
and '80s and it sounds just like the run up to the Iraq invasion.
Even the same people! When will we ever learn.

The speech by Rummy is pretty amazing. He was saying almost exactly
the same things about Iraq as he said about the USSR.

Exactly. He looked a hell of a lot younger, but the goofy hand
gestures were almost the same.

They did the same thing then as now, ignored the CIA, set up their
own "intelligence" unit, "found" weapons nobody else could see.

Exactly. So why was Congress fooled by it? People just don't learn,
even from the recent past.

Unfortunately, the neoconartists were able to exploit 9/11 (something
they had been waiting for according to their PNAC statements).

Yeah, Coincidence?

Yeah. They're not that competent.

Despite the reality that the attack was not that deadly (we lose as
many people every month in auto accidents), it was big, dramatic, and
had the psychological impact bin Laden and his ilk were aiming for.

And all over TV. The media had a field day. It's not that it wasn't
important, but the newsbots were drooling over it and the 24/7 went on
and on and on.

I was in LA at the time and contracting with a bank that was based out
there (and lost a number of people in the attack). But they had a TV set
up in the lobby, running the whole time (nobody was getting any work done
anyway and the corporation shut down all but essential operations not
long after we got to the office).

But a guy there made the comment it was like watching a movie.

He had a point. It was like bin Laden and his bunch had pulled off a big
budget disaster flick. There are, actually, far more damaging ways to
attack the US but few more dramatic. I have to give them this, they got
the psychology right.

(Long aside: Years and years ago, G. Gordon Liddy wrote a fictional
piece--for Omni I believe--about a terrorist attack that was far, far
more insidious. Being the scum that he was and is, I believe he knew what
he was talking about. And he only posited one new thing that does not
exist, the rest could be achieved by a small group of dedicated loons and
mostly operating in areas nobody is paying attention to not even *now.
For one thing--I'm loathe to get too specific in the current climate--I
did not realize how easy it would be to bring down the *entire national
electric grid. Not parts. Not big parts. The whole thing. And the items
he was talking about the hypothetical terrorists would attack are
expensive and manufactured as needed, not stocked somewhere. Much--even
most--of the nation would be without power for months. Maybe more. But
we're busy making people take off their shoes at airports.)

And though I believe the Democrats in the run up to the war were total,
freaking cowards, Bush and the GOP did have the public whipped up to
such a point that any opposition was going to mean devistating losses
at the polls.

I think some were fooled too, but later too cowardly to admit it.

I don't even grant them that. I know Hillary is trying to claim that one
but it's their *duty to question and investigate. They were too cowardly
to even try at the time.

I *still believe they should have had the guts to stand up to him.
We'll never know if they would have gained any traction because they
didn't even *try.

I know.

Even had they gone down in flames in the '04 election, it was a *stupid
move politically over the long term. I don't care *how much dancing
around Hillary does, she voted for the war. In fact, she voted for a
very, very, VERY bad resolution. The Democrats participated in Congress
shirking its Constitution duty to declare war. They had no business
handing the executive a blank check.

Basically they did go down in flames. Part because of their own
ineptitude, part because of the questionable tactics used against them
by Rove, et al.

Myself, I don't find Rove to be the "genius" others make him out to be.
Frankly, I think part of that is they don't want to admit they were taken
down by a not very bright political operative.

It's like the classic bar fight scenario. *Nobody was beaten up by the
short geeky guy. It was six body builder size guys jumped me! <g>

Rove doesn't even have that many tactics. Yelling "treason" at everybody
is a brilliant political move?

And he pulled out *all the stops against a rather weak candidate
(Kerry... I mean, come on, the man was as exciting as a block of wood)
and achieved the lowest re-election margin in history.

I'm not impressed. Reagan, for example, was re-elected in a landslide.
That was impressive. 2004 wasn't.

Still, it is true that had they stood up to Bush, they probably would
have suffered major losses in Congress.

Then again, it's not like they won eh?

Hillary still hasn't explained her vote to my satisfaction. If she made
a mistake, she should own up.

They were the minority party at the time, things would have probably
played out the same. Then in '04, they would have been decimated. More
so than we saw. Thing is, it's not like they *won in '04.

They'd be in a *much better position now if they'd opposed Bush from
the beginning. Cowardly bunch.

Exactly. They were so afraid of being labeled 'unpatriotic' that they
caved in to Bush at every turn.

But politicians are. The *public swallowed it hook, line, and sinker
and Congress critters were running in fear. For all the yammering the
public can do about how powerless they are, they're full of *****.
Congress is *terrified of us. When we do (on those rare occasions) rear
up on our hind legs and roar at them, they scurry like roaches.

I know. the public was not quiet. I think the people had a better idea
of what was going on than Congress. But the problem is that between the
corporate owned media, and the neocon spin machine, our voices were
drowned out. I remember the Peace rallies before the war. They were
hardly covered by the MSM.

That was amazing stuff. And quite stunning the way our news just ignored
it. It was, in itself, a hell of a story. I don't believe there has *ever
been a literally worldwide protest before.

Again, I think the Democrats could have forced the issue with the media.
If they'd had the guts.

My friend Bob (the one who passed after Katrina), was a progressive
Democrat (and was in those protests by the way). Used to get so worked up
at the DLC bunch pontificating on "how to win elections". Many was the
time I heard him yell at the TV, "Get back to us when you win one!"

I'd lay the blame at the feet of the "New Democrats" who thought the
message of the Clinton presidency was: be Republicans. It wasn't. And if
the public has a choice between Republicans and Republicans-lite, why not
buy the real thing?

We are, unfortunately, not a bright people.

We're fools led by bigger fools.

I remember clearly during the run up that solely from *public sources,
I found the idea that Hussein was a threat to us to be laughable.
That's the saddest part to me, that it wasn't some Dark Secret, the
information was *all *over the place.

Exactly. I remember some of the discussions I had with my friends. No
one took the Saddam threat seriously. Most of the foreign press, the
progressive media, the internet agreed. I even recall some of the
discussions we had in this newsgroup. Everyone (except one or two) was
asking "Where's the evidence?

Yup. I remember. A silly little newsgroup and we were *right. No WMDs, no
"cake walk", no greeting as liberators, and the country's bogged down in
somebody else's civil war.

And we're just regular folks, not experts, without all that access to the
intelligence machinery of the government. Really, we shouldn't be *able
to be right. We don't have access to the CIA and spy sattelites and all
that.

Sheesh.

I remember, talking to my mom about it (sigh... Ms. RNC card carryer
herownself) and on the subject of Hussein's "hidden weapons" retorted
with a comment about how we can almont read a paper over your shoulder
from orbit now, don't tell me somebody could hide whole weapons complexes
in a desert.

That was just *ludicrous.

And far as Bush's claim of double secret intelligence, we--the public--
had the right and *duty to demand to see it before we attacked another
country. Unfortunately, we were blindly angry and Bush, Cheney, the
right wing media, et all could have probably talked us into attacking
Canada even.

Of course. If I were a soldier and my government wanted to send me
somewhere to die, I would at least want to know the reasons why. And no
BS about 'national security.

I am of the firm conviction that a big part of Bush's legacy is going to
be a severely broken military. Worse than the Vietnam aftermath.

It is interesting that pretty much everybody who comes back and runs for
office does so as a Democrat.

This is going to severely backfire on the GOP. And this time will last
longer. Or medical capabilities have reduced the deaths dramatically but
that means thousands upon thousands who lost limbs or suffered other
debilitating effects who are--if not already--going to feel seriously
betrayed.

Now we're having "buyer's remorse". But we, as a nation, have a *really
hard time admitting we were wrong. So this mess has drug on far longer
than it should have and people are *dying because we've taken so long
to admit we fucked up.

I know. I opposed the war along. So did many others. Unfortunately not
enough of us.

Well, it's not like the anti-war crowd sat around quietly. Those protests
were nothing short of history making. The corporate media may have
shrugged them off but history won't.

I confess I'm such a cynic I wasn't there myself. I was convinced the
public was determined to poke its eyes out, cover its ears, and yell
"PATRIOTISM" as they blindly followed a pack of moronic ideologues into
disaster.

But I respect the people who marched. And I firmly believe history will
too...