Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Armageddon Watch"
Date:	12 Jan 2004 12:16:31 AM
Object:	Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop

The Catholic Church is getting serious. If you will not vote as the
Pope says, no more crispy and yummy body of Jesus, and no more sweet
blood of Jesus for you - ever!
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/7677205.htm
Posted on Sat, Jan. 10, 2004

Bishop: No Communion for Abortion Backers
JULIET WILLIAMS
Associated Press
MILWAUKEE - A Roman Catholic bishop who waded into politics with a
decree that lawmakers who support abortion rights can no longer receive
Holy Communion has ignited a debate over the separation of church and
state.
Bishop Raymond Burke of La Crosse cited Vatican doctrine, canon law and
teachings by the U.S. bishops in an announcement telling diocesan
priests to withhold communion from such lawmakers until they "publicly
renounce" their support of abortion rights.
"This is about as stark a decree to come down against Catholic
politicians as we've seen in recent history," said Barry W. Lynn,
executive director of the Washington, D.C.-based Americans United for
the Separation of Church and State.
"The problem with it is that elected officials have to represent people
of all faiths and none, and not adhere to one religious demand like the
bishop's," he said.
Pope John Paul II appointed Burke, 55, archbishop of St. Louis in
December. Burke signed the decree in November, when he still had the
authority to do so, but it was not made public until Thursday.
Burke is to be installed in St. Louis on Jan. 26 - raising concerns
among some of his opponents that he may issue the same decree there.
The Vatican and U.S. Bishops have for years urged Catholic legislators
to consider their faith when they vote, and a task force of bishops is
weighing whether to recommend sanctions for Catholic politicians who
support policies contrary to church teachings.
In November, Burke wrote letters to at least three Catholic lawmakers,
telling them they risked being forbidden from taking the Sacrament by
continuing to vote for measures he termed anti-life, including abortion
and euthanasia.
Democratic U.S. Rep. David Obey, who received a letter from Burke, said
Friday that he respects the sacred oath he took to uphold the U.S.
Constitution.
Obey said Burke can instruct him on faith and morals in his private
life, but should use "persuasion, not dictation" to affect his
political votes. He said Burke had "crossed the line into unacceptable
territory."
State Senate Minority Leader Jon Erpenbach, a Democrat who was raised
Catholic but is no longer practicing, expressed a similar view.
"Dictating public policy for people of all faiths by holding sacraments
hostage from those who believe does not sound right," Erpenbach said.
Burke has also come under criticism from some Catholic scholars.
Dan Maguire, a professor of theology at the Jesuit Marquette University
in Milwaukee, called Burke a "fanatic" who has embarrassed the Catholic
Church by using bullying tactics.
"He is not a theologian and he is making terrible mistakes that have
been addressed in theology in the past," Maguire said. "He's making a
fool of himself. And the politicians are absolutely within their
Catholic rights to ignore him."
Sister Mary Ann Walsh of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops said
she had not seen the decree and could not comment on it, but "those
generally are matters to be decided between a bishop and a person he's
dealing with."
In his notification, Burke said his duty as bishop is "to explain,
persuade, correct and admonish those in leadership positions who
contradict the Gospel of life through their action and policies."
Other Wisconsin dioceses say they are not likely to follow suit.
"There's been no indication in the five months Bishop (Robert)
Morlino's been here that he's ever done something like that or plans to
do that," said Bill Brophy, spokesman for the Diocese of Madison.
Pro-Life Wisconsin hailed Burke's decree as a moral victory against
abortion, saying it would help the group hold all Christian politicians
and voters responsible for upholding "natural and moral law."
Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin spokeswoman Lisa Boyce said politicians
are the servants of the public, not religious groups.
"This is a much more coercive tactic than any special interest group
could get away with," she said.

--
Sent by abba from aah in area net
This is a spam protected message. Please answer with reference header.
Posted via http://www.usenet-replayer.com
.

User: "Mark D."
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 03:23:33 AM

"Armageddon Watch" <u358673095@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net> wrote in message
news:l.1073888191.1043975830@66.49.9.108.nw.

So let's get this straight: 'abortion' and 'euthanasia' are a problem
because they're 'anti-life' - whereas bombing two fucking countries and
killing tens of thousands of people in the process somehow *isn't*
'anti-life'...
Sheesh!!
M.
.

User: "Mens sana"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 11:25:53 AM

"Mark D." <Mark.Dxwhc.@not.chom> wrote in message
news:rItMb.1490$JL4.10373@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...

"Armageddon Watch" <u358673095@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net> wrote in

message

news:l.1073888191.1043975830@66.49.9.108.nw.

Mr. D,
You have shone a light into a corner of philosophy that Christians would
prefer to keep in perpetual darkness. The professed opposition to killing is
either absolute or absent as whim or pragmatism decide.
Abortion is prohibited because it involves man usurping Gods right to take
life. Euthanasia is similarly banned. The death penalty seems to have found
some sort of loophole and gets to continue without official sanction. But
It's war that makes the hypocrisy most stark.
Of the hundreds of Christian sects only a handful oppose war on principle.
The rest will mutter the usual platitudes about trying to prevent it while
at the same time providing chaplains to their sect members in each army.
It's not even as that insane general said "my God is bigger than yours" it's
'Our god listens to me not you'.
Although I'm an Atheist I was raised under the Roman Catholic system so I
know a little about the rules. What this Bishop said is pretty pointless
theologically. The only real impact is political. You see if a Catholic
knowingly commits a 'mortal sin' (a real doozer) he is deemed to have
excommunicated himself, even if no-one else ever discovers it.
Thus a Catholic who facilitates abortion (just to keep the thread
consistent) is excommunicated from the church by his own act even if his
Bishop doesn't do the paper work. Not being a member of the church he is no
longer entitled to the sacraments.
If an excommunicated person attempts to receive a sacrament, it should be
denied him if the celebrant is aware of his status. In a case where a priest
unknowingly gives a sacrament to an excomunicant, the sacrament is void.
It follows therefore that even if these politicians are given say communion
by a priest, all they really get is bread. There's a sort of reverse hocus
pokus program running in the background. They don't get the sacrament.
So there you have it. While our friend the Bishop has made his little speech
and fired up his Deiphragic devotees; he hasn't placed an ounce of moral
pressure that didn't already exist on anyone.
Regards,
Mens sana.
.

User: "Stranger"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 03:29:38 PM

"Mark D." <Mark.Dxwhc.@not.chom> wrote in message
news:rItMb.1490$JL4.10373@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...

"Armageddon Watch" <u358673095@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net> wrote in

message

news:l.1073888191.1043975830@66.49.9.108.nw.

If religion believes all sin's will be judged by there god at the gates of
heaven then why do they need to make abortion a capital crime?
Isnt it up to the people/believers induvidual to decide if they want to
commit a so called sin for themselfs? and if that means eternal hell for
them shouldnt that be there choice?
Or does government law make religion what it is?
.

User: "billu"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 12:18:21 PM

"Mens sana" <Spambush@area51.cia> wrote in message
news:2lBMb.4897$HR.9632@news.indigo.ie...

"Mark D." <Mark.Dxwhc.@not.chom> wrote in message
news:rItMb.1490$JL4.10373@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...

"Armageddon Watch" <u358673095@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net> wrote in

message

news:l.1073888191.1043975830@66.49.9.108.nw.

abortion

and euthanasia.

Mr. D,

You have shone a light into a corner of philosophy that Christians would
prefer to keep in perpetual darkness. The professed opposition to killing

either absolute or absent as whim or pragmatism decide.

No there is just vs unjust killing.

Abortion is prohibited because it involves man usurping Gods right to take
life. Euthanasia is similarly banned. The death penalty seems to have

found

some sort of loophole and gets to continue without official sanction. But
It's war that makes the hypocrisy most stark.

It is also unjust to kill an innocent.

Of the hundreds of Christian sects only a handful oppose war on principle.
The rest will mutter the usual platitudes about trying to prevent it while
at the same time providing chaplains to their sect members in each army.
It's not even as that insane general said "my God is bigger than yours"

it's

'Our god listens to me not you'.

In a war the goal is to only injure/kill combatants and to minimize non
combatant
injuries.

Although I'm an Atheist I was raised under the Roman Catholic system so I
know a little about the rules. What this Bishop said is pretty pointless
theologically. The only real impact is political. You see if a Catholic
knowingly commits a 'mortal sin' (a real doozer) he is deemed to have
excommunicated himself, even if no-one else ever discovers it.

No excommunication is a penalty under canon law where a mortal
sin is a sin that severs you from grace. While some sins may incur
an excommunication it is not a global.

longer entitled to the sacraments.

That is only because of canon law. And the guidline is material support.
You
help facillitate it.

If an excommunicated person attempts to receive a sacrament, it should be
denied him if the celebrant is aware of his status. In a case where a

priest

unknowingly gives a sacrament to an excomunicant, the sacrament is void.

It follows therefore that even if these politicians are given say

communion

by a priest, all they really get is bread. There's a sort of reverse hocus
pokus program running in the background. They don't get the sacrament.

No not at all. If a person under an excommunication partakes in a sacramant
without being reconcilled to the Church they are committing sacralige (sp) I
believe.
I am also sure they are violating canons.

So there you have it. While our friend the Bishop has made his little

speech

and fired up his Deiphragic devotees; he hasn't placed an ounce of moral
pressure that didn't already exist on anyone.

You got the last statement correct as if those politician affected cared
about
Church teachings they would follow them before a bishop made an
announcement.
.

User: "Alberich"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 12:32:57 PM

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:25:53 -0000, "Mens sana" <Spambush@area51.cia>
wrote:

"Mark D." <Mark.Dxwhc.@not.chom> wrote in message
news:rItMb.1490$JL4.10373@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...

"Armageddon Watch" <u358673095@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net> wrote in

message

news:l.1073888191.1043975830@66.49.9.108.nw.

Right conclusion, but wrong reason. It's not all mortal sins that
invoke excommunication latae sententiae. From
http://www.natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives/011703/011703d.htm , please
find:
"That the penalty is latae sententiae means it is automatic, and hence
there is no need for an official decree. Most excommunications, by way
of contrast, have to be proclaimed by church authorities in order to
take effect; these are called ferendae sententiae. There are seven
acts in canon law that trigger latae sententiae excommunication. Aside
from abortion, they are: violence against the pope; sacrilege such as
throwing away a consecrated host; absolving a person with whom one has
sinned against the sixth commandment; consecrating a bishop without
authorization; violating the seal of confession; and apostasy, heresy
or schism."

Thus a Catholic who facilitates abortion (just to keep the thread
consistent) is excommunicated from the church by his own act even if his
Bishop doesn't do the paper work. Not being a member of the church he is no
longer entitled to the sacraments.

If an excommunicated person attempts to receive a sacrament, it should be
denied him if the celebrant is aware of his status. In a case where a priest
unknowingly gives a sacrament to an excomunicant, the sacrament is void.

It follows therefore that even if these politicians are given say communion
by a priest, all they really get is bread. There's a sort of reverse hocus
pokus program running in the background. They don't get the sacrament.

I think that's not quite right. They do actually receive the actual
sacrament, but as they take it in a state of mortal sin (for all
excommunicated people are considered thus), then they commit yet
another mortal sin: Sacrilege.

So there you have it. While our friend the Bishop has made his little speech
and fired up his Deiphragic devotees; he hasn't placed an ounce of moral
pressure that didn't already exist on anyone.

Peace,
Alberich
.

User: "Mens sana"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 05:16:20 PM

"Alberich" <Alberich@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:9op50098p7o52bq7ad0n1bdih24odlhvgr@4ax.com...

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:25:53 -0000, "Mens sana" <Spambush@area51.cia>
wrote:

"Mark D." <Mark.Dxwhc.@not.chom> wrote in message
news:rItMb.1490$JL4.10373@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...

"Armageddon Watch" <u358673095@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net> wrote in

message

news:l.1073888191.1043975830@66.49.9.108.nw.

In November, Burke wrote letters to at least three Catholic

lawmakers,

telling them they risked being forbidden from taking the Sacrament by
continuing to vote for measures he termed anti-life, including

abortion

and euthanasia.

Mr. D,

You have shone a light into a corner of philosophy that Christians would
prefer to keep in perpetual darkness. The professed opposition to killing

either absolute or absent as whim or pragmatism decide.

Abortion is prohibited because it involves man usurping Gods right to

take

life. Euthanasia is similarly banned. The death penalty seems to have

found

some sort of loophole and gets to continue without official sanction. But
It's war that makes the hypocrisy most stark.

Of the hundreds of Christian sects only a handful oppose war on

principle.

The rest will mutter the usual platitudes about trying to prevent it

while

at the same time providing chaplains to their sect members in each army.
It's not even as that insane general said "my God is bigger than yours"

it's

'Our god listens to me not you'.

Although I'm an Atheist I was raised under the Roman Catholic system so I
know a little about the rules. What this Bishop said is pretty pointless
theologically. The only real impact is political. You see if a Catholic
knowingly commits a 'mortal sin' (a real doozer) he is deemed to have
excommunicated himself, even if no-one else ever discovers it.

Right conclusion, but wrong reason. It's not all mortal sins that
invoke excommunication latae sententiae. From
http://www.natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives/011703/011703d.htm , please
find:

"That the penalty is latae sententiae means it is automatic, and hence
there is no need for an official decree. Most excommunications, by way
of contrast, have to be proclaimed by church authorities in order to
take effect; these are called ferendae sententiae. There are seven
acts in canon law that trigger latae sententiae excommunication. Aside
from abortion, they are: violence against the pope; sacrilege such as
throwing away a consecrated host; absolving a person with whom one has
sinned against the sixth commandment; consecrating a bishop without
authorization; violating the seal of confession; and apostasy, heresy
or schism."

longer entitled to the sacraments.

If an excommunicated person attempts to receive a sacrament, it should be
denied him if the celebrant is aware of his status. In a case where a

priest

unknowingly gives a sacrament to an excomunicant, the sacrament is void.

It follows therefore that even if these politicians are given say

communion

by a priest, all they really get is bread. There's a sort of reverse

hocus

pokus program running in the background. They don't get the sacrament.

So there you have it. While our friend the Bishop has made his little

speech

and fired up his Deiphragic devotees; he hasn't placed an ounce of moral
pressure that didn't already exist on anyone.

Peace,
Alberich

Brother Alberich,
Thank you for the corrections; I'm working from memories of what the
Franciscans told me when I could expect my future would be longer than my
past.
About what happens when non-Catholics attempt to receive the sacraments I
recall we were told that they just had the outward symbols and not the Holy
sacrament. The examples we got all involved Protestants; a terrible breed
altogether in the Ireland of those days. I ranked an excommunicated person
as akin to a protestant for sacramental purposes. However it was a long time
ago and I may very well have things askew.
Happily Protestants are no longer such rogues in modern Ireland. We atheists
have taken over. Funny story. Where I live is a small place with only 2
cemeteries, both Christian. When I die the Christians won't accommodate my
carcass as I'm not one of theirs but the local authority won't permit burial
anywhere else. My family all hope I'll have a very long life.
Regards,
Mens sana.
.

User: "Trish"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 02:53:29 PM

"Mark D." <Mark.Dxwhc.@not.chom> wrote in message news:<rItMb.1490

Relax. They're only bombing the fetuses.
Trish
.

User: "mariachi"
Title: Bishop Burke shall rather collect teddy bears	21 Jan 2004 12:06:05 PM

"Mark D." <Mark.Dxwhc.@not.chom> wrote in message news:<rItMb.1490$JL4.10373@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net>...

"Armageddon Watch" <u358673095@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net> wrote in message
news:l.1073888191.1043975830@66.49.9.108.nw.

Indeed. If Bishop Burke has too much free time on his hands, why isn't
he collecting teddy bears ? It would be much more productive thing to
to :-)))
Just like this priest...
http://www.seattlearch.org/FormationAndEducation/Progress/Progress+Home+01-15.htm
A heady collection of teddies
By Terry McGuire
SEATTLE -- Like a long journey, a hobby or a collection starts with a
first step.
Take Father Steven Sallis, pastor of St. Benedict Parish, for example.
His collection of approximately 400 teddy bears, 150 teddy bear
ornaments and some 50 teddy bear stamps, along with 30 teddy bear
books and other bear memorabilia, didn't just float down from the
clouds one day like the Snuggle bear.
The collection has evolved.
When the priest arrived in Washington state back in 1987, he possessed
but a single stuffed bear, and that one had been presented to him not
when he was a youngster but as a college student working on the
school's production of "Winnie the Pooh."
"The director gave each one of us a little teddy bear, as a gift,"
Father Sallis recalled. "I kept it in my room in the monastery."
Upon moving to Western Washington and into an apartment, he saw the
need for a shower curtain, so he got one decorated with teddy bears.
He added teddy bear towels to complement it.
Soon, family and friends knew exactly what to get the priest for his
birthday and Christmas, or at least they thought they knew: Anything
cuddly-looking with rounded ears and a button nose.
Father Sallis estimates that about a third of his collection has come
as gifts, and he has purchased another third at garage sales.
"I don't spend a lot of money on teddy bears," he notes, while
marveling at the story of a Japanese businessman who recently spent
hundreds of thousands of dollars on a teddy.
My collection is "not worth a lot of money as far as net value."
Their den is an unused upstairs bedroom in the St. Benedict rectory,
where Father Sallis resides.
Toy bears big and small -- made of fabric, wood, straw, glass, ceramic
and other materials -- occupy the room, soliciting hugs while lounging
on the bed, sitting on desks, and staring out from shelves.
Parishioners and others got to meet them last month when the
collection was part of a home tour designed to raise funds for a
parish young adult group's upcoming mission trip to Tijuana, Mexico,
where they'll help poor residents build homes.
Father Sallis and four parishioners opened up their homes for the
tour. "I thought it'd be a great thing for the kids," he said of his
teddy collection. "We raised over $1,000."
Approximately 75 people -- and one visiting teddy bear -- toured his
home, the latter in the arms of the woman who owned him.
Some of the bears bear memories of past pastorates.
The teddy sporting the blue St. Brendan's Parish soccer shirt was a
welcome-to-the-parish gift when he arrived at the Bothell parish. A
parishioner made it for him.
While at St. Brendan's, Father Sallis hosted an annual "Teddy Bear
Day" for the school's kindergarteners, usually bringing two carloads
of his collection to the event. The youngsters would bring their own
teddy bears and learn about the letter "t" while munching on teddy
bear cookies.
A popular school auction item was Father Sallis' "Teddy Bear Picnics"
for a small group of children. Each would receive one of his bears.
The worn teddy with the Band-Aids covering his "owies" was given to
him by a Bellingham woman when he was pastor of Assumption Parish
there. It had belonged to her kids.
A priest friend wrote an "icon" of the martyred "Bearus in Mindus,"
who was done in by "Emperor Growlus Maximus III." It hangs on a wall.
Some of the teddies reflect the priest's travels or those of others: a
Statue of Liberty bear from New York City; a bear draped with beads
from a New Orleans' Mardi Gras; bears from Russia, Ireland and other
lands.
Some of the stuffed bears have names, some of them provided by the
manufacturer or the giver, or by people whom Father Sallis thinks they
resemble. Eight sets of twins are among the den's denizens.
In addition to "Shakesbear," and an American Gothic bear pair,
occupations represented include bears dressed in pilot goggles, cowboy
hats, surgeons' masks, and the like.
Bears that talk back at the push of a button include Scripture Bear,
who recites biblical passages, a joyful angel bear, who sings
Christmas carols, and a Kung Fu Bear, who responds with an
"ayyyyy-yah!"
Sleepy Bear, ready for bed in his nightgown and drowsy eyes, is the
priest's favorite, "probably because I've had him so long, at least 16
years."
But someday, he may give his collection away, he says. Perhaps some
place like the Doll Museum in Bellevue would be interested. He doesn't
know.
Why the attraction to these stuffed animals?
"They're a lot cheaper than therapy," Father Sallis jokes, and unlike
pets, "you don't have to feed them" or make arrangements for their
care when you go on a trip.
But he turns Smoky Bear serious when he says he'd never own one of
those teddy bear creche scenes. "I don't want to see Baby Jesus as a
teddy bear."
He serious, too, in his plea to readers of this article: Please, don't
send me any teddy bears.
He has plenty already, thank you.
.

User: "Shan"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 02:21:16 PM

"Mark D." <Mark.Dxwhc.@not.chom> wrote in message news:<rItMb.1490$JL4.10373@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net>...

"Armageddon Watch" <u358673095@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net> wrote in message
news:l.1073888191.1043975830@66.49.9.108.nw.

The hypocrisy is they pick and choose when killing is a crime and when
it is not.
Not only bombing and "justified" war is immoral but the possession of
arms is immoral. By buying an assault weapon the buyer is saying "I
may, I will kill human life."
Where is the worth of human life there, hypocrites?
Shan
.

User: "JamesL"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 04:09:37 PM

"Shan" <shankarees@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:71bd538c.0401121221.3f4ee86e@posting.google.com...

The hypocrisy is they pick and choose when killing is a crime and when
it is not.

Not only bombing and "justified" war is immoral but the possession of
arms is immoral. By buying an assault weapon the buyer is saying "I
may, I will kill human life."

Where is the worth of human life there, hypocrites?

Shan

That's right! It's murder to poke holes in that paper target, and that
empty soda can! Right to bear arms be damned! And no one needs a gun to
defend themselves because if we ban all guns every bad guy will be too
afraid to use a weapon while committing some other crime because they might
get in trouble for it!
James L.
.

User: "Alan Ferris"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	14 Jan 2004 01:04:03 PM

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:09:37 GMT, "JamesL"
<forgeddaboudit@spamblock.duh> wrote:

"Shan" <shankarees@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:71bd538c.0401121221.3f4ee86e@posting.google.com...

The hypocrisy is they pick and choose when killing is a crime and when
it is not.

Not only bombing and "justified" war is immoral but the possession of
arms is immoral. By buying an assault weapon the buyer is saying "I
may, I will kill human life."

Where is the worth of human life there, hypocrites?

Shan

The hole in your target is that countries do manage this.
--
Alan "Ferrit" Ferris
()'.'.'()
( (T) )
( ) . ( )
(")_(")
.

User: "JamesL"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	14 Jan 2004 04:09:51 PM

"Alan Ferris" <alan@spamddandd.com> wrote in message
news:jk4b00lh7db847n21chfrqnqql9kvsa0o0@4ax.com...

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:09:37 GMT, "JamesL"
<forgeddaboudit@spamblock.duh> wrote:

"Shan" <shankarees@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:71bd538c.0401121221.3f4ee86e@posting.google.com...

The hypocrisy is they pick and choose when killing is a crime and when
it is not.

Not only bombing and "justified" war is immoral but the possession of
arms is immoral. By buying an assault weapon the buyer is saying "I
may, I will kill human life."

Where is the worth of human life there, hypocrites?

Shan

might

get in trouble for it!

The hole in your target is that countries do manage this.

And those countries all have a higher per-capita rate of crime than the U.S.
.

User: "Alan Ferris"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	15 Jan 2004 01:03:20 PM

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:09:51 GMT, "JamesL"
<forgeddaboudit@spamblock.duh> wrote:

"Alan Ferris" <alan@spamddandd.com> wrote in message
news:jk4b00lh7db847n21chfrqnqql9kvsa0o0@4ax.com...

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:09:37 GMT, "JamesL"
<forgeddaboudit@spamblock.duh> wrote:

"Shan" <shankarees@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:71bd538c.0401121221.3f4ee86e@posting.google.com...

The hypocrisy is they pick and choose when killing is a crime and when
it is not.

Not only bombing and "justified" war is immoral but the possession of
arms is immoral. By buying an assault weapon the buyer is saying "I
may, I will kill human life."

Where is the worth of human life there, hypocrites?

Shan

might

get in trouble for it!

The hole in your target is that countries do manage this.

And those countries all have a higher per-capita rate of crime than the U.S.

Not all.
--
Alan "Ferrit" Ferris
()'.'.'()
( (T) )
( ) . ( )
(")_(")
.

User: "Brian"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says CatholicBishop	12 Jan 2004 02:53:36 PM

Mark D.<Mark.Dxwhc.@not.chom> 01/12/04 04:23AM >>>

"Armageddon Watch" <u358673095@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net> wrote in message
news:l.1073888191.1043975830@66.49.9.108.nw.

At this point, I'm having a hard time following. You're now going to have to be more
specific about which denominations you are referring to, please. After all, the
Vatican and loyal Catholics have received nothing but bad press (including from other
Catholics) for oppossing the war in Iraq and JP II was virtually ignored in his pleas
for help and peace for the people of Afghanistan before 911.
Yours in JMJ,
Brian
.

User: "raven1"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 03:50:50 PM

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:23:33 -0000, "Mark D." <Mark.Dxwhc.@not.chom>
wrote:

"Armageddon Watch" <u358673095@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net> wrote in message
news:l.1073888191.1043975830@66.49.9.108.nw.

Excuse me, but in all fairness, the RCC vehemently opposed the US war
on Iraq.
.

User: "Mark D."
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 04:22:24 PM

"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:ij56009clhpivavm6t44tu37m19fs5p3o2

Excuse me, but in all fairness, the RCC vehemently opposed the US war
on Iraq.

So how come they did ******-all* about it? And *excuse me*, but 'in all
fairness', the ***** who is provocatively and controversially trying to
deny the 'sacrament' to pro-choice legislators *doesn't give a fucking
god-damn* about what those legislators felt or said or did in connection
with *the bombing of Iraqi women and children*. In words of one syllable,
*he don't give a ******.
So stop trying to blur the issue, and *go ***** yourself*. And when you've
finished, get an *adult* to tell you what the common element is between (i)
the Roman Catholic Church's refusal to do anything significant about the
bombing of women and children in Iraq; (ii) the Roman Catholic Church's
refusal to do anything significant about the sexual exploitation of women
and children by its own priests, and (iii) the Roman Catholic Church's
refusal to consider the reproductive rights of women and children who find
themselves pregnant without wanting to be.
Need a hint, missy?
M.
.

User: "raven1"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 05:15:55 PM

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:22:24 -0000, "Mark D." <M@rk.Dxwhc.@not.chom>
wrote:

"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:ij56009clhpivavm6t44tu37m19fs5p3o2

Excuse me, but in all fairness, the RCC vehemently opposed the US war
on Iraq.

So how come they did ******-all* about it?

Such as...? (Feel free to be specific, and particularly to state why
you think the threat of excommunication from the RCC might have any
particular influence over our non-RC President).
<snip ranting and insults>

Need a hint, missy?

I'm male, thank you very much. I'm also an atheist, BTW, and have no
great love for the RCC, as someone who was raised in it. Now would you
care to calm down and discuss the issue rationally, instead of
throwing a tantrum like a four-year old?
.

User: "George Tirebiter"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 04:23:13 PM

In article <ij56009clhpivavm6t44tu37m19fs5p3o2@4ax.com>,
raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:23:33 -0000, "Mark D." <Mark.Dxwhc.@not.chom>
wrote:

"Armageddon Watch" <u358673095@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net> wrote in message
news:l.1073888191.1043975830@66.49.9.108.nw.

Excuse me, but in all fairness, the RCC vehemently opposed the US war
on Iraq.

So why aren't the bishops excommunicating all the catholic politicians who
voted to kill iraqis?
.

User: "raven1"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 05:22:15 PM

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 16:23:13 -0600, George Tirebiter
<Tirebiter7@netscape.net> wrote:

In article <ij56009clhpivavm6t44tu37m19fs5p3o2@4ax.com>,
raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:23:33 -0000, "Mark D." <Mark.Dxwhc.@not.chom>
wrote:

"Armageddon Watch" <u358673095@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net> wrote in message
news:l.1073888191.1043975830@66.49.9.108.nw.

Excuse me, but in all fairness, the RCC vehemently opposed the US war
on Iraq.

So why aren't the bishops excommunicating all the catholic politicians who
voted to kill iraqis?

That's a good question, albeit an equally silly one to this
pro-choice, anti-war atheist, but again, in fairness, people seem to
be confusing the individual action of one Bishop on the abortion issue
with the Church itself.
As regards the Iraq war, also bear in mind that had Pope John Paul
ordered US Bishops to issue just such a threat, it would have
confirmed every conservative US Protestant's fear that Catholics are
not to be trusted in public office because their first allegiance is
to "a foreign prince".
.

User: "George Tirebiter"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 06:41:35 PM

In article <qla600d47g97j75aeo5cqpv6rvm0nt2u8s@4ax.com>,
raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 16:23:13 -0600, George Tirebiter
<Tirebiter7@netscape.net> wrote:

In article <ij56009clhpivavm6t44tu37m19fs5p3o2@4ax.com>,
raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:23:33 -0000, "Mark D." <Mark.Dxwhc.@not.chom>
wrote:

"Armageddon Watch" <u358673095@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net> wrote in
message
news:l.1073888191.1043975830@66.49.9.108.nw.

Excuse me, but in all fairness, the RCC vehemently opposed the US war
on Iraq.

So why aren't the bishops excommunicating all the catholic politicians who
voted to kill iraqis?

That's a good question, albeit an equally silly one to this
pro-choice, anti-war atheist, but again, in fairness, people seem to
be confusing the individual action of one Bishop on the abortion issue
with the Church itself.

As regards the Iraq war, also bear in mind that had Pope John Paul
ordered US Bishops to issue just such a threat, it would have
confirmed every conservative US Protestant's fear that Catholics are
not to be trusted in public office because their first allegiance is
to "a foreign prince".

It would have also exposed the hypocrisy of all those right wing catholics
who jump up and down screaming at liberal catholics for dissenting from
church teachings.
.

User: "Cleopatra"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 06:25:43 PM

(Armageddon Watch) wrote in message news:<l.1073888191.1043975830@66.49.9.108.nw.nuvox.net>...

The Catholic Church is getting serious. If you will not vote as the
Pope says, no more crispy and yummy body of Jesus, and no more sweet
blood of Jesus for you - ever!

Similarly, we presume if one doesn't support the democrat party, the
Dispenser of Others Wealth, The Fount of All Welfare and Entitlements,
The One and Only True Church of Abortion Forever, then all these
wonderful perks will be denied them as well?
Sir, secular humanism is every bit as much a religion as any ever to
grace this planet. You folks preach there is no God with more fervor
and faith than any preacher who ever thumped a bible claiming the
opposite. And since you can offer no better proof for your position
than religious people can for theirs, your own message is itself
faith-based and as such deserving of no more consideration than any
other point of view.
What it really amounts to, pure and simple, is that your crowd is now
openly attempting to deny religious people a seat at the table, to
deny them any access to the political process, thus effectively
disenfranchising them. Let's at least be honest here, you fraud.

*Cleopatra*
.

User: "Jez"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 06:58:13 PM

"Cleopatra" <LiberalsLieLikeCrazy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a90fe3db.0401121625.7ba63495@posting.google.com...

u358673095@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net (Armageddon Watch) wrote in

message news:<l.1073888191.1043975830@66.49.9.108.nw.nuvox.net>...

The Catholic Church is getting serious. If you will not vote as the
Pope says, no more crispy and yummy body of Jesus, and no more sweet
blood of Jesus for you - ever!

Is that how you see the Democrats?
Mmmm....... very strange.

Sir, secular humanism is every bit as much a religion as any ever to
grace this planet. You folks preach there is no God with more fervor
and faith than any preacher who ever thumped a bible claiming the
opposite.

No, we just can't stand the arrogance and
ignorance of so-called religious people.

And since you can offer no better proof for your position
than religious people can for theirs, your own message is itself
faith-based and as such deserving of no more consideration than any
other point of view.

How so, I don't need any faith to prove there's no 'God',
just look around and see the vile and shitty little planet we're living
on...
What a fucking dump, I have to kill and eat animals and plants, just to
survive ! What fucking moron came up with that idea?
If it was a 'God', he must be one sadistic *****.

What it really amounts to, pure and simple, is that your crowd is now
openly attempting to deny religious people a seat at the table, to
deny them any access to the political process, thus effectively
disenfranchising them.

Considering the trouble so called 'religions' have caused mankind,
damn right keep the deluded morons away from ANY POWER !!!
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.

User: "Dan Clore"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says CatholicBishop	12 Jan 2004 06:12:58 AM

Armageddon Watch wrote:

The Catholic Church is getting serious. If you will not vote as the
Pope says, no more crispy and yummy body of Jesus, and no more sweet
blood of Jesus for you - ever!

Very cruel of them to retract the privilege of turning God
into *****.
--
Dan Clore
Now available: _The Unspeakable and Others_
http://www.wildsidepress.com/index2.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587154838/thedanclorenecro
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
"It's a political statement -- or, rather, an
*anti*-political statement. The symbol for *anarchy*!"
-- Batman, explaining the circle-A graffiti, in
_Detective Comics_ #608
.

User: "Joseph Geloso"
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 02:20:57 AM

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 06:16:31 GMT,
u358673095@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net (Armageddon Watch) wrote:
<snip>

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/7677205.htm

Posted on Sat, Jan. 10, 2004

Bishop: No Communion for Abortion Backers

JULIET WILLIAMS

Associated Press

MILWAUKEE - A Roman Catholic bishop who waded into politics with a
decree that lawmakers who support abortion rights can no longer receive
Holy Communion has ignited a debate over the separation of church and
state.

Do tell! How exactly is this issue related to the debate over
"separation of church and state?"
The concept of "separation of church and state," to begin with, is not
found in the United States Constitution. And even if it were, it could
only affect the state, ever, and never the Church. And the actions of
His Excellency are entirely within the Church. The only reason they
might affect the State at all is because these particular Catholics
also happen to be legislators. But that particular influence of the
Church upon the State is exactly what is to be hoped for, if these
"Catholic" politicians are at all worthy of the name "Catholic."

Bishop Raymond Burke of La Crosse cited Vatican doctrine, canon law and
teachings by the U.S. bishops in an announcement telling diocesan
priests to withhold communion from such lawmakers until they "publicly
renounce" their support of abortion rights.

"This is about as stark a decree to come down against Catholic
politicians as we've seen in recent history," said Barry W. Lynn,
executive director of the Washington, D.C.-based Americans United for
the Separation of Church and State.

"The problem with it is that elected officials have to represent people
of all faiths and none, and not adhere to one religious demand like the
bishop's," he said.

Balderdash! Representatives and Senators are elected to make decisions
when decisions are called for. The particular style of decision-making
that each one expresses ought to be what determines whether or not he
gets elected. Those who voted for these men or women presumably knew
they were Catholics when they elected them. They should not be
disappointed in the least if a few of them actually start taking their
religion seriously. If that costs one of them re-election, let him be
happy that he had to give up so little for the sake of his immortal
soul. And if one of them ignores the bishop just to get re-elected, he
should know by the same token that he has sold his soul.

Pope John Paul II appointed Burke, 55, archbishop of St. Louis in
December. Burke signed the decree in November, when he still had the
authority to do so, but it was not made public until Thursday.

Burke is to be installed in St. Louis on Jan. 26 - raising concerns
among some of his opponents that he may issue the same decree there.

Yahoo!

The Vatican and U.S. Bishops have for years urged Catholic legislators
to consider their faith when they vote, and a task force of bishops is
weighing whether to recommend sanctions for Catholic politicians who
support policies contrary to church teachings.

What is the debate?

In November, Burke wrote letters to at least three Catholic lawmakers,
telling them they risked being forbidden from taking the Sacrament by
continuing to vote for measures he termed anti-life, including abortion
and euthanasia.

Democratic U.S. Rep. David Obey, who received a letter from Burke, said
Friday that he respects the sacred oath he took to uphold the U.S.
Constitution.

Obey said Burke can instruct him on faith and morals in his private
life, but should use "persuasion, not dictation" to affect his
political votes. He said Burke had "crossed the line into unacceptable
territory."

A politician who votes to legalize abortion actually sins by
complicity, and incurs the automatic penalty of excommunication
anyway. The good bishop is merely giving teeth to an already existing
decree.

State Senate Minority Leader Jon Erpenbach, a Democrat who was raised
Catholic but is no longer practicing, expressed a similar view.

"Dictating public policy for people of all faiths by holding sacraments
hostage from those who believe does not sound right," Erpenbach said.

The first concern of the bishop actually ought to be the salvation of
those erring politicians. The punishment of excommunication is meant
to give a definitive message to the one who incurs it. God is not
*****-footing around with pro-abortionists who claim to be Catholic.
And it's about time -- finally -- that the Catholic Hierarchy in the
United Sates (and elsewhere) began to enforce God's Law by the
legitimate means at their disposal. The alternative is to take the
attitude that the politician's soul does not matter that much -- let
him receive Communion sacriligeously, and scandalize the whole Church,
all in the interest of "separation of Church and State" -- a concept
which is A) not in the United States Constitution and B) not the
responsibility of any Catholic to uphold.

Burke has also come under criticism from some Catholic scholars.

Dan Maguire, a professor of theology at the Jesuit Marquette University
in Milwaukee, called Burke a "fanatic" who has embarrassed the Catholic
Church by using bullying tactics.

"He is not a theologian

No, Mr. Theologian, he's a Bishop. A theologian as a theologian has
zero authority. A bishop as a bishop has exactly the authority the
Bishop exercised.

and he is making terrible mistakes that have
been addressed in theology in the past,"

Like -- latae sententiae excommunication for anyone who participates
in an abortion? Or was he talking about the separation of Church and
State?

Maguire said. "He's making a
fool of himself. And the politicians are absolutely within their
Catholic rights to ignore him."

How kind of Maguire to give the politicians permission to ignore their
bishop. Woe to the one who believes him!
I wonder if the case could be made to excommuicate Mr. Maguire?

Sister Mary Ann Walsh of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops

Come again? When did the episcopate begin to include sisters?

said
she had not seen the decree and could not comment on it, but "those
generally are matters to be decided between a bishop and a person he's
dealing with."

O.K....

In his notification, Burke said his duty as bishop is "to explain,
persuade, correct and admonish those in leadership positions who
contradict the Gospel of life through their action and policies."

Other Wisconsin dioceses say they are not likely to follow suit.

Chicken *****.

"There's been no indication in the five months Bishop (Robert)
Morlino's been here that he's ever done something like that or plans to
do that," said Bill Brophy, spokesman for the Diocese of Madison.

Pro-Life Wisconsin hailed Burke's decree as a moral victory against
abortion, saying it would help the group hold all Christian politicians
and voters responsible for upholding "natural and moral law."

Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin spokeswoman Lisa Boyce said politicians
are the servants of the public, not religious groups.

A Catholic is first the servant of God, no matter what else he may be.

"This is a much more coercive tactic than any special interest group
could get away with," she said.

Yeah -- scares ya, doesn't it?
You go, Bishop Burke! Carry on the good fight!
.

User: "Mark D."
Title: Re: Vote As Pope Says, Or No Body Of Jesus For You: Says Catholic Bishop	12 Jan 2004 03:38:46 AM

"Joseph Geloso" <josephfg@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:57m400pbl0v5u5b569qsps6g1gcmp4518u

The only reason they
might affect the State at all is because these particular Catholics
also happen to be legislators. But that particular influence of the
Church upon the State is exactly what is to be hoped for, if these
"Catholic" politicians are at all worthy of the name "Catholic."

Er, 'hoped for' by *whom*, exactly? *I* certainly don't want my legislators
to have their limited grasp of the real world further eroded by reliance
upon a bunch of *ludicrous antique myths* - and unless you are some kind of
loony, *you won't*, either.