Religions > Atheism > WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"The Artist currently known as cpt" |
| Date: |
17 Jul 2004 09:17:06 PM |
| Object: |
WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
Introduction
Darwin's many lifelong and serious illnesses have been the subject of much
speculation and study for over a century. Darwin stated that his health
problems began as early as 1825 when he was only six years old, and became
incapacitating around age 28 (Barloon and Noyes, 1997, p. 138). Horan (1979,
p. ix) concluded that Darwin was "ill and reclusively confined to his home
in Kent for forty years." Darwinian scholar Michael Ruse even concluded that
"Darwin himself was an invalid from the age of 30" (2003, p. 1523). And
medical doctor George Pickering, in an extensive study of Darwin's illness,
concluded that in his early thirties, Darwin became an "invalid recluse"
(1974, p. 34). UCLA School of Medicine Professor Dr. Robert Pasnau (1990, p.
123) noted that Darwin also "remained ill almost continually" for the entire
five years that he was on his HMS Beagle trip.
Dozens of scholarly articles and at least three books have been penned on
the question of Darwin's illness. The current conclusion is that Darwin
suffered from several serious and incapacitating psychiatric disorders,
including agoraphobia. Agoraphobia is characterized by fear of panic attacks
(or actual panic attacks) when not in a psychologically safe environment,
such as at home. Darwin, as is common among agoraphobiacs, also developed
many additional phobias-being in crowds, being alone, or leaving home unless
accompanied by his wife (Kaplan and Sadock, 1990, pp. 958-959).
Agoraphobia is also frequently associated with depersonalization (a feeling
of being detached from, and outside of, one's own body), a malady that
Darwin also suffered (Barloon and Noyes, 1997, p. 138). A study of Darwin's
mental condition by Barloon and Noyes concluded that Darwin suffered from
anxiety disorders that so severely impaired his functioning that it limited
his ability to leave his home, even just to meet with colleagues or other
friends. This diagnosis likely explains his very secluded, hermit-like
lifestyle (1997, p. 138). It also helps to explain the title of Desmond and
Moore's 1991 biography of Darwin: Darwin: The Life of a Tormented
Evolutionist.
Other Psychiatric and Medical Problems
Colp (1977, p. 97) concluded that "much of Darwin's daily life was lived on
a rack which consisted of fluctuating degrees of pain" that was sometimes so
severe that Darwin called it "distressingly great." Darwin's many
psychological or psychologically influenced physical health symptoms
included severe depression, insomnia, hysterical crying, dying sensations,
shaking, fainting spells, muscle twitches, shortness of breath, trembling,
nausea, vomiting, severe anxiety, depersonalization, seeing spots, treading
on air and vision, and other visual hallucinations (Barloon and Noyes, 1997,
p. 139; Picover, 1998, p. 290; Colp, 1977, p. 97; Bean, 1978,
p. 573). The physical symptoms included headaches, cardiac palpitations,
ringing in ears (possibly tinnitus), painful flatulence, and gastric
upsets-all of which commonly have a psychological origin (Pasnau, 1990).
Colp noted that "behind these symptoms there was always a core of anxiety
and depression" (1977, p. 97). Some speculate that part of Darwin's mental
problems were due to his nagging, gnawing fear that he had devoted his "life
to a fantasy"-and a "dangerous one" at that (Desmond and Moore, 1991, p.
477). This fear was that his theory was false and there was, in fact, a
divine Creator.
Darwin's behavior also indicates that he suffered from a mental disorder.
Although devoted to his wife and daughters, he "treated them as children"
even after his daughters were fully grown (Picover, 1998, p. 289). Some of
Darwin's statements to others also cast doubt on his mental stability. For
example, in 1875 he wrote the following words to fellow scientist Robert
Hooker:
You ask about my book, & all that I can say is that I am ready to commit
suicide: I thought it was decently written, but find so much wants
rewriting. . . . I begin to think that every one who publishes a book is a
fool (quoted in Colp, 1977, p. 228).
Colp noted that Darwin's son Leonard claimed that his father's illness even
interfered with his feelings for his children. For example, Leonard once
noted that
As a young lad I went up to my father when strolling about the lawn, and
he . . . turned away as if quite incapable of carrying on any conversation.
Then there suddenly shot through my mind the conviction that he wished he
was no longer alive (quoted in Colp, 1977, p. 100).
Darwin's mental problems were considered so severe that Picover (1998, p.
289) included Darwin in his collection of historical persons that he calls
"strange brains . . . eccentric scientists, and madmen." That Darwin
suffered from several severely disabling maladies is not debated; the only
debate is what caused them (Pasnau, 1990, p. 121).
Other Possible Causes of Darwin's Condition
Others, including Darwin's own wife, argued that his mental problem stemmed
from guilt over his life's goal to refute the argument for God from design
(Bean, 1978,
p. 574; p. 28; Pasnau, 1990, p. 126). Most of the psychoanalytic studies
have argued that his problems were a result of his repressed anger toward
his tyrannical father and "the slaying of his heavenly father" by his theory
(Pasnau, 1990, p. 122).
Diagnosis of the cause of Darwin's mental and physical disorders include
parasitic disease (Chaga's disease-caused by an insect common in South
America), arsenic poisoning, and possibly even an inner ear disorder
(Picover, 1998, p. 290; Pasnau, 1990). All of these causes have largely been
refuted. Many persons conclude he had a classic, essential mental
disturbance bordering on psychosis (a severe, incapacitating mental
disorder). Regardless of the diagnosis, Darwin's condition was clearly
incapacitating, often for months at a time, and rendered him an invalid for
much of his life, especially in the prime of his life.
Arnold Sorsby concluded that Darwin was also an obsessive-compulsive and
gives the following evidence:
If Chagas's disease did not cause Darwin's symptoms what did? My personal
diagnosis would be an anxiety state with obsessive features and
psychosomatic manifestations. Anxiety clearly precipitated much of his
physical trouble, and regarding the obsessive component there are several
important points. . . .
Darwin exhibited the obsessional's trait of having everything "just so"; he
kept meticulous records of his health and symptoms like many obsessional
hypochondriacs. Everything had to be in its place; he even had a special
drawer for the sponge which he used in bathing . . . Then there is the
health diary he kept. Days and nights were given a score according to how
good they were; the score was added up at the end of each week, and there is
evidence of frequent changing of mind in deciding whether a night was very
good or just good (1974, p. 228).
Darwin's Own Words about His Condition
In addition to the diary on his health problems and complaints (Colp, 1977,
p. 136), he frequently discussed his health problems in his letters and his
autobiography. Darwin's own description of his condition included the
following: "I am forced to live, . . . very quietly and am able to see
scarcely anybody and cannot even talk long with my nearest relations"
(quoted in Bowlby, 1990, p. 240). Darwin once complained that speaking for
only "a few minutes" to the Linnean Society "brought on 24 hours vomiting"
(Darwin, 1994, pp. 98-99). At another time, Darwin had a "house full of
guests" and after he visited the parish church for a christening, he was
"back to square one" and his good health "had vanished `like a flash of
lightning'" and sickness (including the vomiting) returned (Desmond and
Moore, 1991, p. 456). The suddenness of his illness, as illustrated by these
incidents, indicates that his incapacitating episodes were psychological in
origin.
Another side of Darwin revealed his sadistic impulses. His own words taken
from his autobiography give a vivid example:
In the latter part of my school life I became passionately fond of
shooting, and I do not believe that anyone could have shown more zeal for
the most holy cause than I did for shooting birds. How well I remember
killing my first snipe, and my excitement was so great that I had much
difficulty in reloading my gun from the trembling of my hands. This taste
long continued and I became a very good shot (1958, p. 44).
The fact that he loved killing so much that killing his first bird caused
him to tremble with excitement could certainly indicate a sadistic streak in
Darwin. His passion for killing birds is well known. One wonders if this
"passion" for killing may have, in part, motivated his ruthless "survival of
the fittest" tooth and claw theory of natural selection.
Conclusions
Darwin was clearly a very troubled man and suffered from severe emotional
problems for most of his adult life, especially when he was in the prime of
life. The exact cause of his mental and many physical problems has been much
debated and may never be known for certain. Since Darwin wrote extensively
about his mental and physical problems, we have much material on which to
base a reasonable conclusion about this area of his life. The diagnosis of
the cause of his mental and physical problems includes a variety of
debilitating conditions, but agoraphobia with the addition of psychoneurosis
is most probably correct.
Unfortunately, most writers have shied away from this topic, partly because
Darwin is now idolized by many scientists and others. Often listed as one of
the greatest scientists of the nineteenth century, if not the greatest
scientist that ever lived, Darwin is one of the few scientists known to most
Americans. To understand Darwin as a person and his motivations, one must
consider his mental condition and how it affected his work and conclusions.
References
Barloon, Thomas and Russell Noyes, Jr. 1997. "Charles Darwin and Panic
Disorder." JAMA 277(2):138-141.
Barlow, Nora, ed. 1958. The Autobiography of Charles Darwin 1809-1882. NY:
Norton.
Bean, W. B. 1978. "The Illness of Charles Darwin." The American Journal of
Medicine 65(4):572-574.
Bowlby, John. 1990. Charles Darwin: A New Life. NY: Norton.
Colp, Ralph Jr. 1977. To Be an Invalid: The Illness of Charles Darwin.
Chicago, IL: University of Chicago.
Darwin, Charles. 1994. The Correspondence of Charles Darwin. Cambridge,
England: Cambridge University. Vol. 9.
Desmond, Adrian and James Moore. 1991. Darwin: The Life of a Tormented
Evolutionist. NY: Warner Books.
Grigg, Russell. 1995. "Darwin's Mystery Illness." Creation Ex Nihilo
17(4):28-30.
Horan, Patricia G. 1979. Foreword to The Origin of Species. NY: Gramercy
Books.
Kaplan, Harold I. and Benjamin J. Sadock, ed. 1990. Comprehensive Textbook
of Psychiatry/V. Volume 1 Fifth Edition. NY: Williams and Wilkins.
Pasnau, R. O. 1990. "Darwin's Illness: A Biopsychosocial Perspective."
Psychosomatics 31(2):121-128.
Pickering, George. 1974. Creative Malady. NY: Oxford University Press.
Picover, Clifford A. 1998. Strange Brains and Genius: The Secret Lives of
Eccentric Scientists and Madmen. NY: Quill William Morrow.
Ruse, Michael. 2003. "Is Evolution a Secular Religion?" Science
299:1523-1524.
Sorsby, Arnold, ed. 1974. Tenements of Clay. NY: Charles Scribner's Sons.
*Dr. Bergman is on the Biology faculty at Northwest State College in Ohio.
--
Atheistfools.com
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| User: "Steven J." |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
18 Jul 2004 01:03:29 AM |
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"The Artist currently known as cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> plagiarized in message
news:G4lKc.47$BX5.24723@news.uswest.net...
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-367.htm
It strkes me as rather excessive for Bergman diagnose Darwin as deranged
because he treated women as, well, Victorian gentlemen tended to treat
women, or sadistic because he liked to hunt, but that's creation "science"
for you. As others have pointed out, "how Darwin's mental condition ...
affected his work and conclusions" doesn't matter much to the validity of
evolutionary theory. The theory never rested on Darwin's personal
authority, but on how his reasoning and evidence stood up to critical
scrutiny by other scientists, and by the evidence gathered by further
research. For that matter, evolutionary theory has moved beyond Darwin (and
Wallace).
-- Steven J.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
17 Jul 2004 10:28:17 PM |
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"The Artist currently known as cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:G4lKc.47$BX5.24723@news.uswest.net:
And that long argumentum ad hominem was supposed to prove what exactly?
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
A false witness is worse than no witness at all.
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| User: "The Artist currently known as cpt" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
18 Jul 2004 11:17:31 PM |
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"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns9529D08057815doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"The Artist currently known as cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:G4lKc.47$BX5.24723@news.uswest.net:
And that long argumentum ad hominem was supposed to prove what exactly?
The truth is a good start.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
19 Jul 2004 08:44:49 PM |
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"The Artist currently known as cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:tXHKc.535$2r4.99644@news.uswest.net:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns9529D08057815doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"The Artist currently known as cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:G4lKc.47$BX5.24723@news.uswest.net:
And that long argumentum ad hominem was supposed to prove what
exactly?
The truth is a good start.
It is. But argumentum ad hominem is a logical fallacy--an attempt at
deception. You are trying to tell us that something about Darwin's
character has some logical power over whether or not his ideas were
valid, thus avoiding testing them as science. Now I can understand why
you might fear to test your false claims against scientific data. They
will undoubtedly prove you to be a deceiver. Which brings us back to the
philosophical question of why you are defending a book which teaches that
lying is a sin by lying about science. Can you explain this to me?
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
A false witness is worse than no witness at all.
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| User: "The Artist currently known as cpt" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
22 Jul 2004 11:06:39 PM |
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"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns952BBEF533686doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"The Artist currently known as cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:tXHKc.535$2r4.99644@news.uswest.net:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns9529D08057815doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"The Artist currently known as cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:G4lKc.47$BX5.24723@news.uswest.net:
And that long argumentum ad hominem was supposed to prove what
exactly?
The truth is a good start.
It is. But argumentum ad hominem is a logical fallacy--an attempt at
deception. You are trying to tell us that something about Darwin's
character has some logical power over whether or not his ideas were
valid, thus avoiding testing them as science. Now I can understand why
you might fear to test your false claims against scientific data. They
will undoubtedly prove you to be a deceiver. Which brings us back to the
philosophical question of why you are defending a book which teaches that
lying is a sin by lying about science. Can you explain this to me?
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
A false witness is worse than no witness at all.
Now read properly Davey this states:
It is. But argumentum ad hominem is a logical fallacy--an attempt at
deception. You are trying to tell us that something about Darwin's
character has not had some logical power over whether or not his ideas
were
valid, thus avoiding testing them as science. Now I can understand why
you might fear to test your false claims against scientific data. They
will undoubtedly prove you to be a deceiver. Which brings us back to the
philosophical question of why you are defending a book which teaches that
teaches men evolved from monkeys. Can you explain this to me?
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
23 Jul 2004 10:35:22 AM |
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"The Artist currently known as cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:h90Mc.593$WY2.6273@news.uswest.net:
Which brings us
back to the philosophical question of why you are defending a book
which teaches that
teaches men evolved from monkeys. Can you explain this to me?
These are YOUR words. I defended no book that teaches that men evolved
from monkeys. Have you stopped beating your wife yet? You have CERTAINLY
not stopped trying to deceive people in God's name yet. Do you plan on
EVER doing so, or can we simply write you off as another one of God's many
enemies on this earth and a son of perdition?
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
A false witness is worse than no witness at all.
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| User: "H.D.S" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
03 Aug 2004 04:47:09 PM |
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"The Artist currently known as cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote in news:tXHKc.535
$2r4.99644@news.uswest.net:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns9529D08057815doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"The Artist currently known as cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:G4lKc.47$BX5.24723@news.uswest.net:
And that long argumentum ad hominem was supposed to prove what exactly?
The truth is a good start.
Scientists do not accept evolution on faith of Darwin's claims, as
christians accept jesus' teachings on faith.
Evolution is scrutinized by each biologist and evolutionary scientist.
You can slander Darwin all you want, but he has nothing to do with the
validty of evolution.
--
Read the Bible, because we need more atheists.
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| User: "Brian Busse" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
17 Jul 2004 11:50:48 PM |
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"The Artist currently known as cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:G4lKc.47$BX5.24723@news.uswest.net...
You do plan to post something of value sometime, don't you? "Darwin was crazy so everything he did
is suspect", and a few "silence fool/monkey" posts added to your previous total comes to... zero.
As someone who claims to have a "Ph.D in science" (from UC Berkley?), you should be cognizant of the
rigorous examination and analysis that has been applied to Darwin's observations and speculations.
They have withstood the test of time. Your vain attempts to call Darwin's work through reference to
medical/mental problems totally ignores the fact Darwin's work was only the first step on the road
to the TOE, not the last or only. Anyone with a Ph.D would know better..
<trash snip>
<still trash, but not snipped>
Conclusions
Darwin was clearly a very troubled man and suffered from severe emotional
problems for most of his adult life, especially when he was in the prime of
life. The exact cause of his mental and many physical problems has been much
debated and may never be known for certain. Since Darwin wrote extensively
about his mental and physical problems, we have much material on which to
base a reasonable conclusion about this area of his life. The diagnosis of
the cause of his mental and physical problems includes a variety of
debilitating conditions, but agoraphobia with the addition of psychoneurosis
is most probably correct.
Unfortunately, most writers have shied away from this topic, partly because
Darwin is now idolized by many scientists and others. Often listed as one of
the greatest scientists of the nineteenth century, if not the greatest
scientist that ever lived, Darwin is one of the few scientists known to most
Americans. To understand Darwin as a person and his motivations, one must
consider his mental condition and how it affected his work and conclusions.
.
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| User: "Ralph Page" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
17 Jul 2004 11:58:41 PM |
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"The Artist currently known as cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:G4lKc.47$BX5.24723@news.uswest.net...
Introduction
<snip>
John Nash bubbles to the surface of my memory.
-Ralph Page
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| User: "Billy Goat" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
18 Jul 2004 05:49:56 PM |
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"The Artist currently known as cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<G4lKc.47$BX5.24723@news.uswest.net>...
Introduction
Darwin's many lifelong and serious illnesses have been the subject of much
speculation and study for over a century. Darwin stated that his health
problems began as early as 1825 when he was only six years old, and became
incapacitating around age 28 (Barloon and Noyes, 1997, p. 138).
Are you a sinner? Were you born with a sinful nature?
If so, why should anyone trust anything you say?
--Billy
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| User: "Ian Braidwood" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
20 Jul 2004 03:59:13 AM |
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"The Artist currently known as cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<G4lKc.47$BX5.24723@news.uswest.net>...
Introduction...a person and his motivations, one must
consider his mental condition and how it affected his work and conclusions.
Cut and pasted from: www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-367.htm
Institute for Creation Research... says it all. :-)
(-: Ian :-)
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| User: "Levy Oates" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
18 Jul 2004 01:34:14 AM |
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Agoraphobia is also frequently associated with depersonalization (a feeling
of being detached from, and outside of, one's own body),
Sounds like a certain Jesus of Nazareth. Now there was a nut case.
---------
Archdeacom Levy Oates
On behalf of the Prophet Eric Peabody (pbuh)
Basingstoke, England
http://www.angelfire.com/alt/bumblism/
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| User: "Lars Eighner" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
17 Jul 2004 09:40:42 PM |
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In our last episode,
<G4lKc.47$BX5.24723@news.uswest.net>,
the lovely and talented The Artist currently known as cpt
broadcast on alt.atheism:
Conclusions Darwin was clearly a very troubled man and suffered
from severe emotional problems for most of his adult life,
especially when he was in the prime of life. The exact cause of his
mental and many physical problems has been much debated and may
never be known for certain. Since Darwin wrote extensively about
his mental and physical problems, we have much material on which to
base a reasonable conclusion about this area of his life. The
diagnosis of the cause of his mental and physical problems includes
a variety of debilitating conditions, but agoraphobia with the
addition of psychoneurosis is most probably correct.
What does it matter? Science doesn't depend on one person or one
person's personality. Plenty of "great names" in science have been
mean, zany, weird, and in a few cases diagnosed schizophrenics. What
counts is the goodness of the fit of the theory and the data. Since
Darwin's work has been thoroughly vetted, reproduced, and in many
particulars corrected, it doesn't matter whether it was Darwin - or
Wallace who would have done it if Darwin hadn't.
PS: Agoraphobia + psychoneurosis does not equal a psychotic disorder.
--
Rev. Lars Eighner, ULC, Atheist #1965 http://www.io.com/~eighner
"I hope I never get so old I get religious." --Ingmar Bergman
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| User: "Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
17 Jul 2004 11:02:24 PM |
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On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:40:42 -0500, Lars Eighner <eighner@io.com> wrote in alt.atheism:
In our last episode,
<G4lKc.47$BX5.24723@news.uswest.net>,
the lovely and talented The Artist currently known as cpt
broadcast on alt.atheism:
Conclusions Darwin was clearly a very troubled man and suffered
from severe emotional problems for most of his adult life,
especially when he was in the prime of life. The exact cause of his
mental and many physical problems has been much debated and may
never be known for certain. Since Darwin wrote extensively about
his mental and physical problems, we have much material on which to
base a reasonable conclusion about this area of his life. The
diagnosis of the cause of his mental and physical problems includes
a variety of debilitating conditions, but agoraphobia with the
addition of psychoneurosis is most probably correct.
What does it matter? Science doesn't depend on one person or one
person's personality. Plenty of "great names" in science have been
mean, zany, weird, and in a few cases diagnosed schizophrenics. What
counts is the goodness of the fit of the theory and the data. Since
Darwin's work has been thoroughly vetted, reproduced, and in many
particulars corrected, it doesn't matter whether it was Darwin - or
Wallace who would have done it if Darwin hadn't.
PS: Agoraphobia + psychoneurosis does not equal a psychotic disorder.
It's also a pretty big stretch to suggest that someone who went seafaring, (cooped up with
lots of other people, in an environment where he was never far from "outside") and
combed a tropical island studying its wild life (out in the open for hours a day) could possibly
have been agoraphobic, unless he had a strength of character we have no reason to suspect that
the likes of Jesus ever had. Most likely, the OP has no idea what the word means. Clearly not,
in fact, if his conclusion is that the "psychosis" likely consisted of those two diagnostic
entities.
--
/Apostate
atheist #(e^7.5657933) I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; billions served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
19 Jul 2004 12:08:27 AM |
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Le Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:17:06 -0700, The Artist currently known as cpt a
écrit :
Darwin was clearly a very troubled man and suffered from severe emotional
problems for most of his adult life, especially when he was in the prime
of life.
Have you seen the movie with Russell Crowe, "A Beautiful Mind"?
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
19 Jul 2004 04:38:14 PM |
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On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:17:06 -0700, "The Artist currently known as
cpt" <cpt@yahoo.com> wrote:
Raytard, could you possibly be any more stupid even if you tried?
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| User: "Graham Kennedy" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
18 Jul 2004 04:21:11 AM |
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So what?
--
Graham Kennedy
Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org
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| User: "Brian" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
18 Jul 2004 01:27:21 AM |
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You make the mistake that annoys me when some (not all) atheist make it.
The logic chain goes like this.
Christianity is wrong (insert proof).
The "perfect" Christian books is not really perfect (insert proof).
Therefore there was no creator.
This is absurd reasoning because maybe God is out there but just doesn't
think much of Christians.
(Please--atheist everywhere--not all of you make this mistake and I already
know you feel the burden of proof is on the god-believer.)
But you are worse.
You say "maybe Darwin was pycho".
So we should question his conclusions.
Like most who argue against evolution, you are ignorant enough to believe
that discrediting Darwin is an effective attack on it. In this way you
demonstrate you have no clue what evidence for evolution exist or where it
came from. Enroll in school--understand things a bit better, then engage the
enemy.
Evolution is a conclusion that thousands of men have contributed to.
Eliminate Darwin and 10 other great minds and the foundation will still be
intact. Eliminate all the great thinkers who contributed to our
understanding of evolution and another man will discover it tomorrow.
It is foolish for the Christian faith to continue efforts to discredit
evolution and (even more foolishly) Darwin. Read about Galileo.
In opposing evolution, Christianity shuts out many rational minds that might
otherwise contribute to the church. I heard many times in church that it
was wrong "to try to learn about evolution" and wrong to "question the
Genesis version of creation". Anyone who says it's wrong to consider what
the other side has to say is doing this because they fear the other side
makes a better case than they do. Whether evolution was true or no, the
church was discredited in my youthful eyes because it told me truth wasn't
strong enough to stand up to scrutiny.
Help your church and your faith. Learn about evolution--don't be afraid to
expose yourself to something you think is blatantly untrue. If the
arguments for evolution are so weak, you'll see through them--but hear them
first. Then maybe you can see Genesis as a book with meaning rather than a
poorly written science book.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
18 Jul 2004 04:18:37 AM |
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While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:27:21 -0500, "Brian"
<news@bamadefense.com> screamed out:
Like most who argue against evolution, you are ignorant enough to believe
that discrediting Darwin is an effective attack on it. In this way you
demonstrate you have no clue what evidence for evolution exist or where it
came from. Enroll in school--understand things a bit better, then engage the
enemy.
There is no support for evolution.
--
± Pastor Dave Raymond ±
"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right
before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
Theistic evolutionists are out to please men,
rather than God. They claim to believe in a
virgin birth, people rising from the dead, water
turned into wine and yet, they don't believe that
God created the heaven and the earth in six literal
days, thereby making hypocrites of themselves. Why?
Because man says it isn't so and they would rather
try to please men, instead of choosing to believe
God and stand up for Him. Preachers who claim
theistic evolution are the biggest hypocrites of all
and are in the most danger. Why? Read Isaiah 9:16;
Jeremiah 23:1, 50:6. What do YOU stand for?
"...choose this day whom you will serve. ...as for
me and my house, we will serve the Lord." - Jos 24:15
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
18 Jul 2004 04:33:09 AM |
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On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 05:18:37 -0400 in alt.atheism, Pastor Dave
(Pastor Dave <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com>) said, directing the
reply to alt.atheism
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:27:21 -0500, "Brian"
<news@bamadefense.com> screamed out:
Like most who argue against evolution, you are ignorant enough to believe
that discrediting Darwin is an effective attack on it. In this way you
demonstrate you have no clue what evidence for evolution exist or where it
came from. Enroll in school--understand things a bit better, then engage the
enemy.
There is no support for evolution.
Except in the civilised world, of course....
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
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| User: "Brian" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
18 Jul 2004 05:37:41 AM |
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"Pastor Dave" <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:g2gkf0ho6lo6gaimagmftk7c2lv66p4ir0@4ax.com...
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:27:21 -0500, "Brian"
<news@bamadefense.com> screamed out:
Like most who argue against evolution, you are ignorant enough to believe
that discrediting Darwin is an effective attack on it. In this way you
demonstrate you have no clue what evidence for evolution exist or where
it
came from. Enroll in school--understand things a bit better, then engage
the
enemy.
There is no support for evolution.
--
± Pastor Dave Raymond ±
"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right
before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
Theistic evolutionists are out to please men,
rather than God. They claim to believe in a
virgin birth, people rising from the dead, water
turned into wine and yet, they don't believe that
God created the heaven and the earth in six literal
days, thereby making hypocrites of themselves. Why?
Because man says it isn't so and they would rather
try to please men, instead of choosing to believe
God and stand up for Him. Preachers who claim
theistic evolution are the biggest hypocrites of all
and are in the most danger. Why? Read Isaiah 9:16;
Jeremiah 23:1, 50:6. What do YOU stand for?
"...choose this day whom you will serve. ...as for
me and my house, we will serve the Lord." - Jos 24:15
Noone is claiming (or no one I know of) to be turning water into wine,
raising the dead or having virgin births. The claims for these things all
happened in a time and place I won't get to visit. But evoloution is taking
place all around you, right now. Changing the appearance of a species by
selective breeding (something a man can accomplish in one lifetime) proves
that animals have the ability to change and adapt (although obviously in a
more trial and error way where nature is concerned). If I can produce dogs
the size of dachsunds by selectively breeding Golden Retrivers for fifty
years--what changes are possible in thousands (I won't try to push you to
millions) of years. If most of the food is in small holes underground--and
gradually that becomes the only place a dog could get food--woudn't nature
end up with nothing but dachsunds--or else no dogs at all? Or if most of
the food is small and can run super fast--won't only the fastest dogs make
it and keep breeding until dogs are generally faster than they are now?
These things are evolution. Given enough time, the changes would of course
be a great deal more drastic.
Have you really considered the available facts? Studied fossils or read
books that showed pictures of fossils? Seen bones of extinct animals in a
museum and thought about what the earth was like when they were alive? Ever
wondered why avoiding big, mean dinosaurs isn't a significant part of life
in the old testament? Considered how natural selection might work? Thought
about the drastic changes in climate the earth has experienced and how
creatures adapted? Ever thought about how hydro-electric dams change a
river's ecosystem making some species more dominant than before and almost
wiping out others? I'm not saying "I'm right and you're wrong" I'm just
wondering if you thought these things through.
Or are you guilty of believing that you can be wise without reading many
different books on different subjects with different viewpoints--regarding
subject matter outside of your field of expertise.
Brian
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
18 Jul 2004 05:58:56 AM |
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While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sun, 18 Jul 2004 05:37:41 -0500, "Brian"
<news@bamadefense.com> screamed out:
Noone is claiming (or no one I know of) to be turning water into wine,
raising the dead or having virgin births. The claims for these things all
happened in a time and place I won't get to visit. But evoloution is taking
place all around you, right now.
Microevolution is. If you can't tell the difference
between microevolution and what you believe happened,
then you shouldn't be mentioning water into wine.
--
± Pastor Dave Raymond ±
"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right
before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
Evolution has never been proven and there
is no such thing as a clear progression of fossils,
showing that man came from anything else.
- Pastor Dave Raymond
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.
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| User: "Brian" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
18 Jul 2004 12:37:30 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ntlkf0d5vcs10dik2dqal0vrctga5o222n@4ax.com...
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sun, 18 Jul 2004 05:37:41 -0500, "Brian"
<news@bamadefense.com> screamed out:
Noone is claiming (or no one I know of) to be turning water into wine,
raising the dead or having virgin births. The claims for these things
all
happened in a time and place I won't get to visit. But evoloution is
taking
place all around you, right now.
Microevolution is. If you can't tell the difference
between microevolution and what you believe happened,
then you shouldn't be mentioning water into wine.
If you believe microevolution, but only acknowledge it after "There is no
support for evolution" fails your are guiltyof on the one had, saying the
other guy has no case, then acknowledging he does have a case--but it
doesn't prove exactly what he says it does. Which is a different thing
altogether.
Your changing tactics indicate you don't look at things with an open mind.
You start with a conclusion and can only see support for that conclusion.
When one line of support fails--you make up another. This lack of
intellectual integrity does not prove you are wrong but it makes it nearly
impossible for YOU to know if you are right or not. And it makes you a poor
representative for your cause.
--
± Pastor Dave Raymond ±
"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right
before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
Evolution has never been proven and there
is no such thing as a clear progression of fossils,
showing that man came from anything else.
- Pastor Dave Raymond
Once again you lead with ignorance. For you it's all about "man from ape"
yet most research and evidence regarding evolution is not related to human
life at all. Consider plant life and micro-organisms.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
18 Jul 2004 01:47:24 PM |
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While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:37:30 -0500, "Brian"
<news@bamadefense.com> screamed out:
"Pastor Dave" <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ntlkf0d5vcs10dik2dqal0vrctga5o222n@4ax.com...
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sun, 18 Jul 2004 05:37:41 -0500, "Brian"
<news@bamadefense.com> screamed out:
Noone is claiming (or no one I know of) to be turning water into wine,
raising the dead or having virgin births. The claims for these things
all
happened in a time and place I won't get to visit. But evoloution is
taking
place all around you, right now.
Microevolution is. If you can't tell the difference
between microevolution and what you believe happened,
then you shouldn't be mentioning water into wine.
If you believe microevolution, but only acknowledge it after "There is no
support for evolution" fails your are guiltyof on the one had, saying the
other guy has no case, then acknowledging he does have a case--but it
doesn't prove exactly what he says it does. Which is a different thing
altogether.
Don't play stupid.
--
± Pastor Dave Raymond ±
"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right
before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"The word 'believe' comes from an Old English word,
'bylive'. What we believe, is what we live by.
Don't tell me you believe, if you don't live by it."
- Adrian Rogers
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.
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| User: "Joe Blow" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
18 Jul 2004 04:08:32 PM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:37:30 -0500, "Brian"
<news@bamadefense.com> screamed out:
"Pastor Dave" <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ntlkf0d5vcs10dik2dqal0vrctga5o222n@4ax.com...
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sun, 18 Jul 2004 05:37:41 -0500, "Brian"
<news@bamadefense.com> screamed out:
Noone is claiming (or no one I know of) to be turning water into wine,
raising the dead or having virgin births. The claims for these things
all
happened in a time and place I won't get to visit. But evoloution is
taking
place all around you, right now.
Microevolution is. If you can't tell the difference
between microevolution and what you believe happened,
then you shouldn't be mentioning water into wine.
If you believe microevolution, but only acknowledge it after "There is no
support for evolution" fails your are guiltyof on the one had, saying the
other guy has no case, then acknowledging he does have a case--but it
doesn't prove exactly what he says it does. Which is a different thing
altogether.
Don't play stupid.
Actually he was suggesting that you stop being dishonest.
Joe
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| User: "Joe Blow" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
18 Jul 2004 12:00:57 PM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sun, 18 Jul 2004 05:37:41 -0500, "Brian"
<news@bamadefense.com> screamed out:
Noone is claiming (or no one I know of) to be turning water into wine,
raising the dead or having virgin births. The claims for these things all
happened in a time and place I won't get to visit. But evoloution is taking
place all around you, right now.
Microevolution is. If you can't tell the difference
between microevolution and what you believe happened,
then you shouldn't be mentioning water into wine.
And the difference between micro and macroevolution is ...?
Joe
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| User: "Harry F. Leopold" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
19 Jul 2004 08:17:16 AM |
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On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:00:57 -0500, Joe Blow wrote
(in article <-72dndfpnZVUMWfdRVn-uA@comcast.com>):
Subject: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL
HEALTH
From: Joe Blow <joeblow@volcanomail.com>
Date: Yesterday 12:00
Newsgroups: alt.atheism, alt.talk.creationism
Pastor Dave wrote:
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sun, 18 Jul 2004 05:37:41 -0500, "Brian"
<news@bamadefense.com> screamed out:
Noone is claiming (or no one I know of) to be turning water into wine,
raising the dead or having virgin births. The claims for these things all
happened in a time and place I won't get to visit. But evoloution is
taking
place all around you, right now.
Microevolution is. If you can't tell the difference
between microevolution and what you believe happened,
then you shouldn't be mentioning water into wine.
And the difference between micro and macroevolution is ...?
The same as measuring the circumference of the earth by millimeters vs. by
furlongs. What is measured is exactly the same, only the numbers are
different.
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
³(B)iological evolution is a team sport.³-Louis Friend
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
19 Jul 2004 09:41:30 AM |
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While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:17:16 -0500, Harry F. Leopold
<hleopold@coxyx.net> screamed out:
Microevolution is. If you can't tell the difference
between microevolution and what you believe happened,
then you shouldn't be mentioning water into wine.
And the difference between micro and macroevolution is ...?
The same as measuring the circumference of the earth by millimeters vs. by
furlongs. What is measured is exactly the same, only the numbers are
different.
And yet it is still the same Earth and is the same
size.
--
± Pastor Dave Raymond ±
"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right
before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
If your bible is falling apart, chances are your
life is staying together.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
19 Jul 2004 04:50:09 PM |
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On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:41:30 -0400, Pastor Dave
<nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote:
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:17:16 -0500, Harry F. Leopold
<hleopold@coxyx.net> screamed out:
Microevolution is. If you can't tell the difference
between microevolution and what you believe happened,
then you shouldn't be mentioning water into wine.
And the difference between micro and macroevolution is ...?
The same as measuring the circumference of the earth by millimeters vs. by
furlongs. What is measured is exactly the same, only the numbers are
different.
And yet it is still the same Earth and is the same
size.
And "microevolution" and "macroevolution" are the same thing too,
Dave. Macro is just accumulated micro. If and when the day ever comes
when you can show real scientific evidence (as opposed to unsupported
personal opinion) that there's some "magic line" beyond which futher
change cannot occur, then we'll discuss it. Until then, you're just
blowing smoke. And most of it's going up your own *****.
.
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| User: "Brian L" |
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| Title: Re: WAS CHARLES DARWIN PSYCHOTIC? A STUDY OF HIS MENTAL HEALTH |
19 Jul 2004 02:20:28 PM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:17:16 -0500, Harry F. Leopold
<hleopold@coxyx.net> screamed out:
Microevolution is. If you can't tell the difference
between microevolution and what you believe happened,
then you shouldn't be mentioning water into wine.
And the difference between micro and macroevolution is ...?
The same as measuring the circumference of the earth by millimeters vs. by
furlongs. What is measured is exactly the same, only the numbers are
different.
And yet it is still the same Earth and is the same
size.
P Dave this is embarrassing. Earlier in this topic you said there was
no support for evolution. Then later you say there is "microevolution"
but not evolution--acknowledging the support but not acknowledging the
conclusion. Now I'm starting to believe you are an atheist posing as a
creationist to make poor creationist look bad. This last argument has
to be one of the worst I've ever seen.
You are obviously making this stuff up as you go along. Working hard to
refute the good logic lined up against you. Seriously--this doesn't
make you question your original conclusion?
If you can't be consistent with yourself--how can YOU believe what you say?
.
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