| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"James" |
| Date: |
15 Nov 2005 02:14:16 PM |
| Object: |
Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
Bear wrote:
"Without any conceivable doubt, I firmly believe that the Hebrew god is the
most evil character of all time. Starting with the book of Genesis, we learn
that he's an insanely angry deity. Of the many atrocities committed in the
Old Testament, God is usually the sole participator. The Genesis authors
record the first such instance in chapters 6-8 as the account of Noah's
flood.
"The reason that God decides to drown the entire world, killing nearly every
living person and animal on earth, is his belief that people are evil and
unworthy of existence (Genesis 6:5). So what if they were evil? As Lenny
Bruce once exclaimed, "The fault lies with the manufacturer!" God allegedly
created humans, yet he faults us for being guided by our desires, instincts,
and natural tendencies. Since he's supposedly omniscient, God realized how
we were destined to turn from the beginning. He must also have realized that
his lament would fuel the urge to destroy his precious creations, only to
leave himself back where he started. Even so, he creates Adam, yet hundreds
of years later, he drowns nearly all the men, women, and children on the
face of the earth because he deliberately chose not to make us to his liking
the first time.
Hello,
Let's apply that analogy in another place. You could have said,
'Without any conceivable doubt, I firmly believe that the USA is the
most evil country of all time.'. They lock up people who steal and who
rape etc. They execute those who take other lives etc.
Yes, when they punish the wicked ones, they certainly must themselves
be wicked. That in essence is what you are accusing God.
God created humans, and has the right to set the moral standards by
which they should live. (Ge 1:1)
As far as God knowing how "we were destined to turn from the
beginning", the Bible does not support that view. Since God is all
powerful, He has the CHOICE of not knowing things. In other words, He
doesn't have to always know the outcome of everything. And the Bible
shows that to be the case.
For example take Ge 18:20,21,
"20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so
great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what
they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I
will know."" (NIV)
Clearly, God did not know the full scope of the goings on in Sodom and
Gomorrah at that time, except what He had heard. So He was going to
"go down" and find out the facts, then, He said, "I will know".
So to make the blanket statement that God ALWAYS knows everything, is
not correct and in harmony with the Scriptures.
Sincerely, James
***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
"Even if we suppose the adults deserved to die slow and torturous deaths,
what association could we conceivably make between their decisions and the
adolescent victims of the flood? Couldn't God have just placed the innocent
children and animals aside for a while so that they wouldn't drown? If not,
how about a humane death at the very least? Drowning is a horrible way for
people to die. As a result of hopelessly treading water for hours, their
muscles burned due to large amounts of lactic acid production. Once they
finally gave up, went under, and held their breaths, acidic carbon dioxide
eroded their lungs until the unbearable pain forced them to inhale where
there was no air for them to breathe. The water brought into their lungs
robbed their bodies of oxygen, causing them to go numb. As water violently
rushed in and out of their chests, the currents eventually laid their
heavily breathing, slowly dying bodies at the bottom of the ocean. The
inhaled water caused their lungs to tear and bleed profusely. As their blood
supply dwindled, their hearts slowly came to a halt. Even so, their brains
continued to process information for another couple of minutes. They were
patently aware that death was imminent, yet they could do nothing to speed
it or prevent it. I imagine that their final reflections would have been on
what they did to deserve such treatment.
"As you see, drowning is not a quick and painless death. Regardless, this is
what God did to every man, woman, child, baby, and animal on earth because
he made a mistake! To make matters disgustingly worse, the flood
accomplished nothing! The omniscient God realizes after the flood that a man's
imagination is evil from youth (Genesis 8:21). He seemingly allows us to be
evil to this day, just like those he purportedly drowned in the flood. Even
if this was the sole befuddled and immoral act carried out by God, I'm
positive that I couldn't bring myself to worship him. However, this is only
the beginning of his mass-murdering spree." (Dr. Jason Long; Biblical
Nonsense)
.
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| User: "Bear" |
|
| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
15 Nov 2005 11:20:03 AM |
|
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"James" wrote
: God created humans, and has the right to set the moral standards by
: which they should live. (Ge 1:1)
Who said that a god created humans?
: So to make the blanket statement that God ALWAYS knows everything, is
: not correct and in harmony with the Scriptures.
So you don't think your god is omniscient? Hmm?
--
Bear
There but for circumstances go I.
Being an atheist isn't a choice or act of will - like theism; it's a
consequence of what one knows and how one reasons.
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
15 Nov 2005 03:30:23 PM |
|
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In <nkfkn1tfjuhsmjpj4hr72mf8ketta1nbbf@4ax.com>, James <arox@surfbest.net>
wrote:
God created humans, and has the right to set the moral standards by which
they should live. (Ge 1:1)
Funny thing this idea that there are no moral standards outside of your
god to which he could be held. It means, you see, that none of you
believers actually have any assurance of your "salvation."
Why? Because "god" could change the rules arbitrarily and capriciously at
any time and, since "god" defines what is "moral," the act of tossing you
all into hell because he happens to feel like it *is a moral act.
There is no standard to which you can hold this god to. And this "god"
tormented Job just to settle a bet. Maybe he'll throw you into hell
because it's funny...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
Forgotten Already
http://makeashorterlink.com/?H1233272C
Feds are treating Louisiana like enemy
"...it may be that they may have written us off."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?O21E51C1C
http://www.nola.com
.
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| User: "Andrew W" |
|
| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
16 Nov 2005 01:29:46 AM |
|
|
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:WvOdnfDhoP3xzufenZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@megapath.net...
In <nkfkn1tfjuhsmjpj4hr72mf8ketta1nbbf@4ax.com>, James <arox@surfbest.net>
wrote:
God created humans, and has the right to set the moral standards by which
they should live. (Ge 1:1)
Funny thing this idea that there are no moral standards outside of your
god to which he could be held. It means, you see, that none of you
believers actually have any assurance of your "salvation."
Why? Because "god" could change the rules arbitrarily and capriciously at
any time and, since "god" defines what is "moral," the act of tossing you
all into hell because he happens to feel like it *is a moral act.
Exactly. Believers have to basically just take it on faith that their bible
god is good just because *he/it* says so, but we know that demons can quote
scripture too so much of the bible could have been inspired by them.
But believers somehow just know that all of the bible was inspired and
preserved infallibly by the good creator.
But think of this. God gave free will, well guess what, he gave free will to
the devil too to mess with us. It cuts both ways, so nothing in this world
is safe.
There is no standard to which you can hold this god to. And this "god"
tormented Job just to settle a bet. Maybe he'll throw you into hell
because it's funny...
The story of Job is almost undeniable proof that the bible god is evil.
Job proved his worthiness to the bible god, but afterwards did God show his
grace and gratitude by patting Job on the back and restoring everything he
so violently took from him? Nah. He just left Job with a broken life. Pure
evil.
--
Andrew W.
Beware of invisible entities that coerce you into a life of worship and
sacrifice.
Beware of any being who offers you a gift in the form of death and
suffering.
Beware of any religion that makes free-mindedness a crime.
Free-mindedness is foolishness to those whose brains are perishing.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.
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| User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?cantc=FF?=" |
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| Title: Re: Job's restored life |
16 Nov 2005 04:47:53 AM |
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Andrew W wrote:
Job proved his worthiness to the bible God, but afterwards did God show his
grace and gratitude by patting Job on the back and restoring everything he
so violently took from him? Nah. He just left Job with a broken life.
Where did you hear this?
"The LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before."
Job (KJV) 42:
11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters,
and all they that had been of his acquaintance before,
and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him,
and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him:
every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning:
for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels,
and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
13 He had also seven sons and three daughters. ...
15 And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job:
and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.
16 After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons,
and his sons' sons, [even] four generations.
17 So Job died old and full of days.
.
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| User: "Andrew W" |
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| Title: Re: Job's restored life |
16 Nov 2005 02:25:03 PM |
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"cantc’" <noratz99@ao|.com> wrote in message
news:11nm3j0is6umqf7@corp.supernews.com...
Where did you hear this?
"The LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before."
Job (KJV) 42:
11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters,
and all they that had been of his acquaintance before,
and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him,
and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him:
every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of
gold.
12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning:
for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels,
and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
13 He had also seven sons and three daughters. ...
15 And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of
Job:
and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.
16 After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons,
and his sons' sons, [even] four generations.
17 So Job died old and full of days.
What did the Lord give him? It was his friends, sisters and sympathetic
strangers who gave him everything, not the Lord.
"and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD
had brought upon him"
The line that says "So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his
beginning" was an assumption by the people that the blessings came from the
Lord, as is typical of believers. It is also a common religious expression.
What he received was purely out of sympathy by the people.
Did the Lord apologise to him and talk to him afterwards to make him feel
better? Not a chance. He just took off like he always does, just like demons
do.
--
Andrew W.
Beware of invisible entities that coerce you into a life of worship and
sacrifice.
Beware of any being who offers you a gift in the form of death and
suffering.
Beware of any religion that makes free-mindedness a crime.
Free-mindedness is foolishness to those whose brains are perishing.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Job's restored life |
16 Nov 2005 08:20:35 AM |
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In <11nm3j0is6umqf7@corp.supernews.com>, cantc’ <noratz99@ao|.com> wrote:
Andrew W wrote:
Job proved his worthiness to the bible God, but afterwards did God show
his grace and gratitude by patting Job on the back and restoring
everything he so violently took from him? Nah. He just left Job with a
broken life.
Where did you hear this?
"The LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before."
Because the "lord" had to or he just happened to feel like it this time?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
Forgotten Already
http://makeashorterlink.com/?H1233272C
Feds are treating Louisiana like enemy
"...it may be that they may have written us off."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?O21E51C1C
http://www.nola.com
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Job's restored life |
16 Nov 2005 09:50:30 AM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
In <11nm3j0is6umqf7@corp.supernews.com>, cantc’ <noratz99@ao|.com> wrote:
Andrew W wrote:
Job proved his worthiness to the bible God, but afterwards did God show
his grace and gratitude by patting Job on the back and restoring
everything he so violently took from him? Nah. He just left Job with a
broken life.
Where did you hear this?
"The LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before."
Because the "lord" had to or he just happened to feel like it this time?
===>Once again, he was probably sorry for what he had done,
as he was in Genesis 6. ;-)
It is strange how seriously people take such fables! -- L.
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Job's restored life |
17 Nov 2005 10:10:51 AM |
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In <11nm3j0is6umqf7@corp.supernews.com>, cantc’ <noratz99@ao|.com> wrote:
Andrew W wrote:
Job proved his worthiness to the bible God, but afterwards did God show
his grace and gratitude by patting Job on the back and restoring
everything he so violently took from him? Nah. He just left Job with a
broken life.
Where did you hear this?
"The LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before."
So, god bribed Job to tell the story to make god look good?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
Forgotten Already
http://makeashorterlink.com/?H1233272C
Feds are treating Louisiana like enemy
"...it may be that they may have written us off."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?O21E51C1C
http://www.nola.com
.
|
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| User: "Santolina chamaecyparissus" |
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| Title: Re: Job's restored life |
18 Nov 2005 09:48:58 PM |
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cantc=FF wrote:
Andrew W wrote:
Job proved his worthiness to the bible God, but afterwards did God show=
his
grace and gratitude by patting Job on the back and restoring everything=
he
so violently took from him? Nah. He just left Job with a broken life.
Where did you hear this?
"The LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before."
Job made out okay in the end. His children and servants and livestock,
on the other hand, pretty much all got assfucked.
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Job's restored life |
16 Nov 2005 09:48:51 AM |
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cantcŃ wrote:
Andrew W wrote:
Job proved his worthiness to the bible God, but afterwards did God show his
grace and gratitude by patting Job on the back and restoring everything he
so violently took from him? Nah. He just left Job with a broken life.
Where did you hear this?
"The LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before."
===>The "all-knowing" and "all mighty" deity had to make
a wager with Satan, destroy innocent people and animals,
plague the poor righteous man with disease, just to "prove his
worthiness"? Of what? -- L.
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
17 Nov 2005 10:09:43 AM |
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In <437adfeb$0$25857$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Andrew W"
<removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:WvOdnfDhoP3xzufenZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@megapath.net...
In <nkfkn1tfjuhsmjpj4hr72mf8ketta1nbbf@4ax.com>, James
<arox@surfbest.net> wrote:
God created humans, and has the right to set the moral standards by
which they should live. (Ge 1:1)
Funny thing this idea that there are no moral standards outside of your
god to which he could be held. It means, you see, that none of you
believers actually have any assurance of your "salvation."
Why? Because "god" could change the rules arbitrarily and capriciously
at any time and, since "god" defines what is "moral," the act of tossing
you all into hell because he happens to feel like it *is a moral act.
Exactly. Believers have to basically just take it on faith that their
bible god is good just because *he/it* says so, but we know that demons
can quote scripture too so much of the bible could have been inspired by
them. But believers somehow just know that all of the bible was inspired
and preserved infallibly by the good creator. But think of this. God gave
free will, well guess what, he gave free will to the devil too to mess
with us. It cuts both ways, so nothing in this world is safe.
One of the things that gets to me is the bible itself identifies the Jews
as "god's chosen." So, for the sake of argument, let's say Yahweh is real
and the Jews are his "chosen" and there really is an "adversary" (aka
Lucifer, Satan, etc.).
If you wanted to obscure the "one true faith," what better way than to
send a "messiah" to co-opt it, take over, and deceive billions?
Sure, it'd *sound good with "love your neighbor" and "turn the other
cheek" but it would result in, oh, inquisitions, wars, genocide, things
like that.
(Hm)
There is no standard to which you can hold this god to. And this "god"
tormented Job just to settle a bet. Maybe he'll throw you into hell
because it's funny...
The story of Job is almost undeniable proof that the bible god is evil.
Job proved his worthiness to the bible god, but afterwards did God show
his grace and gratitude by patting Job on the back and restoring
everything he so violently took from him? Nah. He just left Job with a
broken life. Pure evil.
Interesting thing about that, "god" gave Job back a big batch of material
wealth.
Out of court settlement? Bribery maybe?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
Forgotten Already
http://makeashorterlink.com/?H1233272C
Feds are treating Louisiana like enemy
"...it may be that they may have written us off."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?O21E51C1C
http://www.nola.com
.
|
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| User: "Andrew W" |
|
| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
17 Nov 2005 02:05:35 PM |
|
|
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:d5WdncU2DYLENuHeRVn-sg@megapath.net...
In <437adfeb$0$25857$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Andrew W"
<removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:
Exactly. Believers have to basically just take it on faith that their
bible god is good just because *he/it* says so, but we know that demons
can quote scripture too so much of the bible could have been inspired by
them. But believers somehow just know that all of the bible was inspired
and preserved infallibly by the good creator. But think of this. God gave
free will, well guess what, he gave free will to the devil too to mess
with us. It cuts both ways, so nothing in this world is safe.
One of the things that gets to me is the bible itself identifies the Jews
as "god's chosen." So, for the sake of argument, let's say Yahweh is real
and the Jews are his "chosen" and there really is an "adversary" (aka
Lucifer, Satan, etc.).
If you wanted to obscure the "one true faith," what better way than to
send a "messiah" to co-opt it, take over, and deceive billions?
Sure, it'd *sound good with "love your neighbor" and "turn the other
cheek" but it would result in, oh, inquisitions, wars, genocide, things
like that.
(Hm)
Not to mention Jesus is a good way of disempowering the people.
I think that's why the dark secretly loves Jesus - because he disempowers
the people so much that the dark can take over the world virtually without
lifting a finger.
There is no standard to which you can hold this god to. And this "god"
tormented Job just to settle a bet. Maybe he'll throw you into hell
because it's funny...
The story of Job is almost undeniable proof that the bible god is evil.
Job proved his worthiness to the bible god, but afterwards did God show
his grace and gratitude by patting Job on the back and restoring
everything he so violently took from him? Nah. He just left Job with a
broken life. Pure evil.
Interesting thing about that, "god" gave Job back a big batch of material
wealth.
Out of court settlement? Bribery maybe?
Where's the evidence that God gave him anything back?
Go back and read the verse again.
You will find that it was the people around him who gave him everything
afterwards.
--
Andrew W.
Beware of invisible entities that coerce you into a life of worship and
sacrifice.
Beware of any being who offers you a gift in the form of death and
suffering.
Beware of any religion that makes free-mindedness a crime.
Free-mindedness is foolishness to those whose brains are perishing.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.
|
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
17 Nov 2005 03:14:22 PM |
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In <437ce290$0$6703$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Andrew W"
<removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:d5WdncU2DYLENuHeRVn-sg@megapath.net...
In <437adfeb$0$25857$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Andrew W"
<removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:
Exactly. Believers have to basically just take it on faith that their
bible god is good just because *he/it* says so, but we know that demons
can quote scripture too so much of the bible could have been inspired
by them. But believers somehow just know that all of the bible was
inspired and preserved infallibly by the good creator. But think of
this. God gave free will, well guess what, he gave free will to the
devil too to mess with us. It cuts both ways, so nothing in this world
is safe.
One of the things that gets to me is the bible itself identifies the
Jews as "god's chosen." So, for the sake of argument, let's say Yahweh
is real and the Jews are his "chosen" and there really is an "adversary"
(aka Lucifer, Satan, etc.).
If you wanted to obscure the "one true faith," what better way than to
send a "messiah" to co-opt it, take over, and deceive billions?
Sure, it'd *sound good with "love your neighbor" and "turn the other
cheek" but it would result in, oh, inquisitions, wars, genocide, things
like that.
(Hm)
Not to mention Jesus is a good way of disempowering the people. I think
that's why the dark secretly loves Jesus - because he disempowers the
people so much that the dark can take over the world virtually without
lifting a finger.
There is no standard to which you can hold this god to. And this "god"
tormented Job just to settle a bet. Maybe he'll throw you into hell
because it's funny...
The story of Job is almost undeniable proof that the bible god is evil.
Job proved his worthiness to the bible god, but afterwards did God show
his grace and gratitude by patting Job on the back and restoring
everything he so violently took from him? Nah. He just left Job with a
broken life. Pure evil.
Interesting thing about that, "god" gave Job back a big batch of
material wealth.
Out of court settlement? Bribery maybe?
Where's the evidence that God gave him anything back? Go back and read the
verse again.
You will find that it was the people around him who gave him everything
afterwards.
Well, for sake of argument, I was granting that "god" gave him the
material wealth. That's what the babble toting set wants us to believe. I
just find it funny "god" felt the need to buy Job off...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
Forgotten Already
http://makeashorterlink.com/?H1233272C
Feds are treating Louisiana like enemy
"...it may be that they may have written us off."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?O21E51C1C
http://www.nola.com
.
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| User: "Andrew W" |
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| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
17 Nov 2005 03:39:19 PM |
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|
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:5vWdnQwrVdJdb-HeRVn-hA@megapath.net...
In <437ce290$0$6703$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Andrew W"
<removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:
Where's the evidence that God gave him anything back? Go back and read
the
verse again.
You will find that it was the people around him who gave him everything
afterwards.
Well, for sake of argument, I was granting that "god" gave him the
material wealth. That's what the babble toting set wants us to believe. I
just find it funny "god" felt the need to buy Job off...
I agree to a point that the bible god character sometimes does do that (buy
people off).
The evil bible god sometimes has to actually do some good things to promote
itself.
Evil has to have some way of promoting itself.
--
Andrew W.
Beware of invisible entities that coerce you into a life of worship and
sacrifice.
Beware of any being who offers you a gift in the form of death and
suffering.
Beware of any religion that makes free-mindedness a crime.
Free-mindedness is foolishness to those whose brains are perishing.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
18 Nov 2005 09:54:44 PM |
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Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
In <437adfeb$0$25857$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Andrew W"
<removethis_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:WvOdnfDhoP3xzufenZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@megapath.net...
In <nkfkn1tfjuhsmjpj4hr72mf8ketta1nbbf@4ax.com>, James
<arox@surfbest.net> wrote:
God created humans, and has the right to set the moral standards by
which they should live. (Ge 1:1)
Funny thing this idea that there are no moral standards outside of your
god to which he could be held. It means, you see, that none of you
believers actually have any assurance of your "salvation."
Why? Because "god" could change the rules arbitrarily and capriciously
at any time and, since "god" defines what is "moral," the act of tossing
you all into hell because he happens to feel like it *is a moral act.
Exactly. Believers have to basically just take it on faith that their
bible god is good just because *he/it* says so, but we know that demons
can quote scripture too so much of the bible could have been inspired by
them. But believers somehow just know that all of the bible was inspired
and preserved infallibly by the good creator. But think of this. God gave
free will, well guess what, he gave free will to the devil too to mess
with us. It cuts both ways, so nothing in this world is safe.
One of the things that gets to me is the bible itself identifies the Jews
as "god's chosen." So, for the sake of argument, let's say Yahweh is real
and the Jews are his "chosen" and there really is an "adversary" (aka
Lucifer, Satan, etc.).
If you wanted to obscure the "one true faith," what better way than to
send a "messiah" to co-opt it, take over, and deceive billions?
Sure, it'd *sound good with "love your neighbor" and "turn the other
cheek" but it would result in, oh, inquisitions, wars, genocide, things
like that.
How would those doctrines lead to "inquisitions, wars, genocide, things
like that?"
This ought to be an interesting logical development. I am truly hoping
you will answer.
TCross
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| User: "Bear" |
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| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
18 Nov 2005 10:05:14 PM |
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"Terry Cross" wrote
: Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
: > Sure, it'd *sound good with "love your neighbor" and "turn the other
: > cheek" but it would result in, oh, inquisitions, wars, genocide, things
: > like that.
:
: How would those doctrines lead to "inquisitions, wars, genocide, things
: like that?"
Paradoxical isn't it?
: This ought to be an interesting logical development. I am truly hoping
: you will answer.
You won't be able to follow if it's logical.
--
Bear
There but for circumstances go I.
Being an atheist isn't a choice or act of will - like theism; it's a
consequence of what one knows and how one reasons.
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
18 Nov 2005 10:10:01 PM |
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Bear wrote:
"Terry Cross" wrote
: Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
: > Sure, it'd *sound good with "love your neighbor" and "turn the other
: > cheek" but it would result in, oh, inquisitions, wars, genocide, things
: > like that.
:
: How would those doctrines lead to "inquisitions, wars, genocide, things
: like that?"
Paradoxical isn't it?
: This ought to be an interesting logical development. I am truly hoping
: you will answer.
You won't be able to follow if it's logical.
Still waiting for Mark Biblo's answer.
TCross
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| User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?cantc=FF?=" |
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| Title: Re: God's Genocidal Wrath |
15 Nov 2005 11:56:07 AM |
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James wrote:
As far as God knowing how "we were destined to turn from the
beginning", the Bible does not support that view.
It certainly does.
Does God make come to pass whatever He declares?
Did He declare the end from the beginning?
Since God is all powerful,
He has the CHOICE of not knowing things.
That is a ridiculous statement.
That is like saying that God has the choice to lie or to make a rock so big that He cannot lift it.
In other words, He doesn't have to always know the outcome of everything.
All you are claiming is that God is willfully ignorant so that He can be excused from the consequences of what He created.
And the Bible shows that to be the case.
For example take Ge 18:20,21,
"20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so
great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what
they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I
will know."" (NIV)
Clearly, God did not know the full scope of the goings on in Sodom and
Gomorrah at that time, except what He had heard.
Pretty amazing, huh?
God knows where every sparrow is.
God knows how many hairs are on your head and what color they are.
God knows about every sin that would ever be committed and laid them all on Jesus.
God knows what you need before you even ask.
God calls all the stars by name.
But God needed to visit S&G to see firsthand whether the reports of their debauchery were well-founded.
So He was going to
"go down" and find out the facts, then, He said, "I will know".
And did He ever go?
So to make the blanket statement that God ALWAYS knows everything, is
not correct and in harmony with the Scriptures.
The question remains as to whether any innocent or unaccountable children suffered in the Flood.
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| User: "Martin Edwards" |
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| Title: Re: God's Genocidal Wrath |
15 Nov 2005 12:14:51 PM |
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cantc’ wrote:
Since God is all powerful,
He has the CHOICE of not knowing things.
That is a ridiculous statement.
That is like saying that God has the choice to lie or to make a rock so
big that He cannot lift it.
It is no more ridiculous than any other part of the mythos. Please go
through Genesis and find something that is not ridiculous.
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx
www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
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| User: "VtSkier" |
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| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
15 Nov 2005 12:02:44 PM |
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James wrote:
Bear wrote:
"Without any conceivable doubt, I firmly believe that the Hebrew god is the
most evil character of all time. Starting with the book of Genesis, we learn
that he's an insanely angry deity. Of the many atrocities committed in the
Old Testament, God is usually the sole participator. The Genesis authors
record the first such instance in chapters 6-8 as the account of Noah's
flood.
"The reason that God decides to drown the entire world, killing nearly every
living person and animal on earth, is his belief that people are evil and
unworthy of existence (Genesis 6:5). So what if they were evil? As Lenny
Bruce once exclaimed, "The fault lies with the manufacturer!" God allegedly
created humans, yet he faults us for being guided by our desires, instincts,
and natural tendencies. Since he's supposedly omniscient, God realized how
we were destined to turn from the beginning. He must also have realized that
his lament would fuel the urge to destroy his precious creations, only to
leave himself back where he started. Even so, he creates Adam, yet hundreds
of years later, he drowns nearly all the men, women, and children on the
face of the earth because he deliberately chose not to make us to his liking
the first time.
Hello,
Let's apply that analogy in another place. You could have said,
'Without any conceivable doubt, I firmly believe that the USA is the
most evil country of all time.'. They lock up people who steal and who
rape etc. They execute those who take other lives etc.
No, he is not saying that at all. What he is saying is that
God chose to execute all of the innocent humans an animals along
with the guilty, because some were guilty. Even the US doesn't
do that, at least knowingly and certainly God did what he did
knowingly.
Yes, when they punish the wicked ones, they certainly must themselves
be wicked. That in essence is what you are accusing God.
God is CERTAINLY a murderer of innocents in this story.
God created humans, and has the right to set the moral standards by
which they should live. (Ge 1:1)
Fair enough. Why should he kill all but a few of the people
for the sins of a few.
As far as God knowing how "we were destined to turn from the
beginning", the Bible does not support that view. Since God is all
powerful, He has the CHOICE of not knowing things. In other words, He
doesn't have to always know the outcome of everything. And the Bible
shows that to be the case.
He has the CHOICE of not knowing things? What kind of
argument is this? If he is God, as defined by our Judeo/
Christian tradition, he MUST know the outcome of everything.
For example take Ge 18:20,21,
"20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so
great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what
they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I
will know."" (NIV)
Clearly, God did not know the full scope of the goings on in Sodom and
Gomorrah at that time, except what He had heard. So He was going to
"go down" and find out the facts, then, He said, "I will know".
So to make the blanket statement that God ALWAYS knows everything, is
not correct and in harmony with the Scriptures.
Clearly the scriptures had not yet caught up the the theory
of God as almighty. Or maybe for the sake of a story to
illustrate a point, the story, written by a PERSON or PEOPLE,
not by God as is the common belief, has portrayed God as
a muddled, meddling fool.
Sincerely, James
***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
JW's, eh? You've been to my house. You don't come much any
more, since I told you that I approve of door to door religion.
"Even if we suppose the adults deserved to die slow and torturous deaths,
what association could we conceivably make between their decisions and the
adolescent victims of the flood? Couldn't God have just placed the innocent
children and animals aside for a while so that they wouldn't drown? If not,
how about a humane death at the very least? Drowning is a horrible way for
people to die. As a result of hopelessly treading water for hours, their
muscles burned due to large amounts of lactic acid production. Once they
finally gave up, went under, and held their breaths, acidic carbon dioxide
eroded their lungs until the unbearable pain forced them to inhale where
there was no air for them to breathe. The water brought into their lungs
robbed their bodies of oxygen, causing them to go numb. As water violently
rushed in and out of their chests, the currents eventually laid their
heavily breathing, slowly dying bodies at the bottom of the ocean. The
inhaled water caused their lungs to tear and bleed profusely. As their blood
supply dwindled, their hearts slowly came to a halt. Even so, their brains
continued to process information for another couple of minutes. They were
patently aware that death was imminent, yet they could do nothing to speed
it or prevent it. I imagine that their final reflections would have been on
what they did to deserve such treatment.
"As you see, drowning is not a quick and painless death. Regardless, this is
what God did to every man, woman, child, baby, and animal on earth because
he made a mistake! To make matters disgustingly worse, the flood
accomplished nothing! The omniscient God realizes after the flood that a man's
imagination is evil from youth (Genesis 8:21). He seemingly allows us to be
evil to this day, just like those he purportedly drowned in the flood. Even
if this was the sole befuddled and immoral act carried out by God, I'm
positive that I couldn't bring myself to worship him. However, this is only
the beginning of his mass-murdering spree." (Dr. Jason Long; Biblical
Nonsense)
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| User: "655321" |
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| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
18 Nov 2005 09:09:13 PM |
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On 2005-11-15 10:02:44 -0800, VtSkier <VtSkier@nospam.net> said:
God is CERTAINLY a murderer of innocents in this story.
Not by James's logic... or by law. First, God® likely just didn't know
who was innocent and who wasn't, by James's logic.
And, murder is a legal term. If God® is a lawgiver, then he can deem
the killing of innocents by HIM® not murder.
--
GlennGlenn (655321) -- aa#825 --
"Genocide is used sparingly by God in only extreme circumstances." -Jim Spaza
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| User: "655321" |
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| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
18 Nov 2005 09:05:56 PM |
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On 2005-11-15 12:14:16 -0800, James <arox@surfbest.net> said:
Clearly, God did not know
What kind of all-powerful god does not know something?
--
GlennGlenn (655321) -- aa#825 --
"Genocide is used sparingly by God in only extreme circumstances." -Jim Spaza
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| User: "655321" |
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| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
18 Nov 2005 09:10:15 PM |
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On 2005-11-15 12:14:16 -0800, James <arox@surfbest.net> said:
God created humans, and has the right to set the moral standards by
which they should live. (Ge 1:1)
....and, presumably, the moral standards by which *He®* should live as
well, right?
--
GlennGlenn (655321) -- aa#825 --
"Genocide is used sparingly by God in only extreme circumstances." -Jim Spaza
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
18 Nov 2005 09:14:34 PM |
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655321 wrote:
On 2005-11-15 12:14:16 -0800, James <arox@surfbest.net> said:
God created humans, and has the right to set the moral standards by
which they should live. (Ge 1:1)
...and, presumably, the moral standards by which *He=AE* should live as
well, right?
No.
TCross
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| User: "Andrew W" |
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| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
19 Nov 2005 01:08:11 AM |
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"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132370074.834671.11780@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
655321 wrote:
On 2005-11-15 12:14:16 -0800, James <arox@surfbest.net> said:
God created humans, and has the right to set the moral standards by
which they should live. (Ge 1:1)
...and, presumably, the moral standards by which *He®* should live as
well, right?
No.
Yes.
He should be setting good examples for us.
--
Andrew W.
Beware of invisible entities that coerce you into a life of worship and
sacrifice.
Beware of any being who offers you a gift in the form of death and
suffering.
Beware of any religion that makes free-mindedness a crime.
Free-mindedness is foolishness to those whose brains are perishing.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
19 Nov 2005 01:19:48 AM |
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Andrew W wrote:
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132370074.834671.11780@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
655321 wrote:
On 2005-11-15 12:14:16 -0800, James <arox@surfbest.net> said:
God created humans, and has the right to set the moral standards by
which they should live. (Ge 1:1)
...and, presumably, the moral standards by which *He=AE* should live as
well, right?
No.
Yes.
He should be setting good examples for us.
If God is the Creator, we find too many things in Creation to assert
the God is using the same definitions of Good and Bad that you or I
would use. God put fangs in snakes, thorns on roses, claws on Eagles,
astroids, fungus on athletes' feet, death in free-fall, and crap in
baby diapers - and many other things we need not mention.
We might, as callow students, therefore conclude there can be no God
who rules the universe. But that conclusion would be premature and
illogical.
We can only conclude that our drawing-room definitions of Good and Evil
do not rule the universe.
TCross
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| User: "Andrew W" |
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| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
19 Nov 2005 02:02:06 AM |
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"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132384788.762113.134980@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Andrew W wrote:
Yes.
He should be setting good examples for us.
If God is the Creator, we find too many things in Creation to assert
the God is using the same definitions of Good and Bad that you or I
would use. God put fangs in snakes, thorns on roses, claws on Eagles,
astroids, fungus on athletes' feet, death in free-fall, and crap in
baby diapers - and many other things we need not mention.
The Christian god sounds a lot like nature.
We might, as callow students, therefore conclude there can be no God
who rules the universe. But that conclusion would be premature and
illogical.
The Christian explanation of God is not much more logical than the
alternative.
It is also not much more thorough in its explanation of purposes, which
indicates that religion doesn't know what its talking about any more than
the materialist theorists.
We can only conclude that our drawing-room definitions of Good and Evil
do not rule the universe.
Then the honest answer is that we just don't know yet.
Religion is not very honest.
--
Andrew W.
Beware of invisible entities that coerce you into a life of worship and
sacrifice.
Beware of any being who offers you a gift in the form of death and
suffering.
Beware of any religion that makes free-mindedness a crime.
Free-mindedness is foolishness to those whose brains are perishing.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
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| User: "Terry Cross" |
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| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
19 Nov 2005 02:18:33 AM |
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Andrew W wrote:
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132384788.762113.134980@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Andrew W wrote:
Yes.
He should be setting good examples for us.
If God is the Creator, we find too many things in Creation to assert
the God is using the same definitions of Good and Bad that you or I
would use. God put fangs in snakes, thorns on roses, claws on Eagles,
astroids, fungus on athletes' feet, death in free-fall, and crap in
baby diapers - and many other things we need not mention.
The Christian god sounds a lot like nature.
The Crator of all things is the author of nature. I gave you some
examples from "nature." You are comparing George Washington with
George Washington and finding identity.
We might, as callow students, therefore conclude there can be no God
who rules the universe. But that conclusion would be premature and
illogical.
The Christian explanation of God is not much more logical than the
alternative.
What alternative?
It is also not much more thorough in its explanation of purposes, which
indicates that religion doesn't know what its talking about any more than
the materialist theorists.
You have leapt so quickly from your midget concept of Christianity to a
generalization of all religion. When 7,000 years of human thought is
just fligh-over country to you, it is no wonder your conclusions are so
callow.
We can only conclude that our drawing-room definitions of Good and Evil
do not rule the universe.
Then the honest answer is that we just don't know yet.
Is that your answer? Again, the flash conclusion. Were you to apply
that depth of thought to physics, you would still be admiring Xeno's
paradox.
Religion is not very honest.
You generalize from my few answers to conclude that religion has not
stretched its neck to answer your insincere questions.
There may be a couple more things in the history of human thought than
has ever entered your head - or ever will, if you proceed with your
current methods.
TCross
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| User: "Andrew W" |
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| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
19 Nov 2005 03:38:18 AM |
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"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132388313.065565.188100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Andrew W wrote:
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132384788.762113.134980@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The Christian god sounds a lot like nature.
The Crator of all things is the author of nature.
You misspelt crater.
A crater (hole) such as the Christian god cannot author anything.
--
Andrew W.
Beware of invisible entities that coerce you into a life of worship and
sacrifice.
Beware of any being who offers you a gift in the form of death and
suffering.
Beware of any religion that makes free-mindedness a crime.
Free-mindedness is foolishness to those whose brains are perishing.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
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| User: "Lars Eighner" |
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| Title: Re: Was "God's Genocidal Wrath" |
18 Nov 2005 09:37:42 PM |
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In our last episode,
<1132370074.834671.11780@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented Terry Cross
broadcast on alt.atheism:
655321 wrote:
On 2005-11-15 12:14:16 -0800, James <arox@surfbest.net> said:
God created humans, and has the right to set the moral standards by
which they should live. (Ge 1:1)
...and, presumably, the moral standards by which *He®* should live as
well, right?
No.
So how do you know whether you are worshipping a good god or a
bad demon? You don't know unless you have a moral sense that
comes before god(s). Human moral sense obviously isn't
infallible, but it certainly beats an arbitrary deity's.
--
Rev. Lars Eighner, ULC http://www.larseighner.com/
The Mint Jelly of God® -- The World's Best Atheist -- Unholier Than Thou
First Church of Electro-Baptism ***Atheist #1965*** One Short Circuit to Jesus
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --Jefferson
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