| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
29 Jul 2005 06:08:35 PM |
| Object: |
What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
Letter from France: In Europe, Islam fills Marxism's old shoes
Craig S.Smith
When Azzedine Belthoub was growing up in the shantytowns outside of
Nanterre, France, 40 years ago, the people who came to take the young
North African kids to swim in the community pool, to register them for
school and give them candy and comic books, were Marxists. The French
Communist Party offered a political voice for the working classes,
including the growing number of North African immigrants imported to
fill labor shortages after World War II.
Today, Islam plays that role, especially in France, where men like
Belthoub, wearing long beards and short djellabas, reach out to the
poor and disillusioned in the country's working-class neighborhoods.
Young Arabs and Africans here have turned to Islam with the same fervor
that the idealistic youth of the 1960s turned toward Marxism. ."Now,
religion has become our identity," Belthoub said last week, sitting in
a friend's apartment in a largely Muslim suburb north of Paris.
The question is whether Islam in Europe will follow the same path that
communism did here, shedding its revolutionary extremism, electing
mayors and legislators and assimilating itself into normal democratic
political life.
As with Marxism in the 1960s, Islam in Europe has its radical fringe
and its pragmatic mainstream. The latter is much the broader, intent on
expanding Muslims' political power in French society. It has
consciously mimicked many of the tactics of the left, including
organizing summer camps where urban young people learn the tenets of
the movement.
The narrower stream, but in many ways the more potent one, draws its
inspiration from the fundamentalist clerics of Saudi Arabia and seeks
to isolate its adherents from the surrounding society. Although
predominantly pacifist, it contains a militant fringe analogous to the
violent Marxist groups that operated in Europe decades ago.
That militant fringe makes headlines, though, and colors the whole
movement, both in the way young Muslims understand their faith and in
the way the larger society sees and deals with Islam, just as the
bombers and kidnappers of the Red Brigades and the Baader-Meinhof Gang
did to European communism in the 1960s.
But the eventual evaporation of hard-line Marxism in Europe may offer
clues to how the Islamist trend could play out. Disowned by the
pragmatic left, Europe's militant Marxist fringe was isolated and
repressed, while governments pursued social policies that to some
measure addressed the grievances of the poor and dispossessed, which
had animated the radicals.
Islam's growth in Europe as the most vibrant ideology of the
downtrodden is part of a wave of religiosity that has swept the Arab
world in the past 30 years, propelled by frustration over feeble
economies, uneven distribution of wealth and the absence of political
freedom.
Like communism, it represents for many of its devoted adherents a
transnational ideology tilting toward an eventual utopian vision, in
this case of a vast, if not global, caliphate governed according to
sharia, the legal code based on the Koran.
But the religion's appeal reaches beyond the communities of Arab and
African immigrants born to the faith. There are an estimated 50,000
Muslim converts in France alone today. Many of these people have taken
up the religion as a way to define themselves against traditional
European culture, whose values they reject for economic or spiritual
reasons. ."Islam has replaced Marxism as the ideology of contestation,"
says Olivier Roy, a French scholar of European Islam. "When the left
collapsed, the Islamists stepped in."
Islam's role is not entirely accidental. The political left reached out
to Muslims in the 1970s as other groups moved up and out of Europe's
working-class neighborhoods. In France, Socialists and Communists alike
established associations in the housing projects, attracting many
young, politically active Arab men.
But those alliances withered, as frustrated Arab youths turned away
from politics. In France, the rupture followed several defining events,
including the 1981 bulldozing of an immigrant shelter in a suburb of
Paris by the local mayor, a Communist. That betrayal was followed by
the disillusionment of a 1985 civil rights march that brought little
concrete action.
Communist cadres, meanwhile, resisted the rise of young Arabs within
their party. By the end of the decade, when a young Arab was killed
during a demonstration in Paris, the left's credibility in that group
was dead.
Islamic organizations soon began channeling the frustrated youth toward
religion.
The map of France's Islamists today largely matches that of the
country's Marxists from decades ago. Many predominantly Muslim
municipalities are still under Communist-led administrations, but
Islamic organizations are now the active ones.
Islam's institutional presence has since blossomed. Europe's first
generation of Muslim immigrants made do without mosques, halal butchers
or easy access to the pilgrimage to Mecca; the current generation has
all those things, along with a plethora of educational texts, video and
audio cassettes and conferences to expand the knowledge of Islam.
The Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks only increased interest in the
religion, and the growing institutions have met surging demand. ."We're
rejected everywhere, and so the only place we feel at peace is in our
religion," said Issam el-Zryouly, 19, whose family moved to France from
Morocco when he was 6. Like many of his peers, Zryouly has redefined
himself as a Muslim after a few years of drug use and petty crime.
But Islam's role as a beacon for the downtrodden may wane, in part
because of its very success: The necessary compromises with the
surrounding community that are inherent in economic and political
participation could dull its edge and sap its momentum, as they did for
Marxism.
Beyond the militant minority, the inward-looking fundamentalists are by
definition politically insignificant. Once the more mainstream,
upwardly mobile Arab or African young people move out of their
working-class neighborhoods, "they aren't perceived as Muslim any more,
and the vast majority aren't interested in using their religion as a
social and political marker," says Gilles Kepel, author of "The War for
Muslim Minds."
Islam as an ideology of the repressed may hold its allure only so long
as immigrants' economic and political dislocation lasts.
"International Herald Tribune", December 30, 2004
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| User: "The DCLXVIth Earl of Helpus." |
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| Title: Re: What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
30 Jul 2005 02:32:47 AM |
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Next up: What if Kropotkin was a Seventh Day Adventist?
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| User: "DK" |
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| Title: Re: What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
30 Jul 2005 02:40:02 AM |
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In article <1122708766.922999.198260@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, "The DCLXVIth Earl of Helpus." <user13@heathens.org.uk> wrote:
Next up: What if Kropotkin was a Seventh Day Adventist?
Cute reply but it ignores the obvious: that "Islam vs Western values"
upcoming long struggle is only version 2.0 of the "Communism
vs Western values" [Cold] War. Anyone refusing to see countless
analogies is simply in denial.
DK
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| User: "Captain!" |
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| Title: Re: What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
31 Jul 2005 03:58:13 AM |
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"DK" <dk@no.email.thankstospam.net> wrote in message
news:dcfash$lih$1@news.doit.wisc.edu...
In article <1122708766.922999.198260@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, "The
DCLXVIth Earl of Helpus." <user13@heathens.org.uk> wrote:
Next up: What if Kropotkin was a Seventh Day Adventist?
Cute reply but it ignores the obvious: that "Islam vs Western values"
upcoming long struggle is only version 2.0 of the "Communism
vs Western values" [Cold] War. Anyone refusing to see countless
analogies is simply in denial.
DK
said former communists are an equal oportunity target as far as the muslims
are concerned.
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| User: "MTRP" |
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| Title: What are the Western Values ? |
31 Jul 2005 04:21:40 AM |
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Captain! wrote:
"DK" wrote:
"The DCLXVIth Earl of Helpus." wrote:
Next up: What if Kropotkin was a Seventh Day Adventist?
Cute reply but it ignores the obvious: that "Islam vs Western values"
upcoming long struggle is only version 2.0 of the "Communism
vs Western values" [Cold] War. Anyone refusing to see countless
analogies is simply in denial.
said former communists are an equal oportunity target as far as the muslims
are concerned.
Hmm ... BTW what are those Western values?
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| User: "Musashi Miyamoto" |
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| Title: Re: What are the Western Values ? |
31 Jul 2005 05:42:10 AM |
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"MTRP" <Mir.Topolski@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:1122801700.903820.210160@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
: Captain! wrote:
: > "DK" wrote:
: > > "The DCLXVIth Earl of Helpus." wrote:
: > > >Next up: What if Kropotkin was a Seventh Day Adventist?
: > > Cute reply but it ignores the obvious: that "Islam vs Western values"
: > > upcoming long struggle is only version 2.0 of the "Communism
: > > vs Western values" [Cold] War. Anyone refusing to see countless
: > > analogies is simply in denial.
: > said former communists are an equal oportunity target as far as the
muslims
: > are concerned.
:
: Hmm ... BTW what are those Western values?
:
Franco-German values are to sit around and wait for welfare check.
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| User: "Hugo S. Cunningham" |
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| Title: Re: What are the Western Values ? |
02 Aug 2005 09:06:40 PM |
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On 31 Jul 2005 02:21:40 -0700, "MTRP" <Mir.Topolski@gmx.de> wrote:
Captain! wrote:
"DK" wrote:
"The DCLXVIth Earl of Helpus." wrote:
Next up: What if Kropotkin was a Seventh Day Adventist?
Cute reply but it ignores the obvious: that "Islam vs Western values"
upcoming long struggle is only version 2.0 of the "Communism
vs Western values" [Cold] War. Anyone refusing to see countless
analogies is simply in denial.
said former communists are an equal oportunity target as far as the muslims
are concerned.
Hmm ... BTW what are those Western values?
As they have emerged in the last two centuries, a fusion of humanism
with the better elements of Christianity.
The concept has to be broad enough to include both the social
democracies of Westerm Europe and the more individualist liberal
democracy of the USA. Japan and Israel also fit, even though they are
non-Christian.
Some elements:
Separation of church and state
"Render that which is Caesar's unto Caesar, and that which is God's
unto God."
freedom of conscience
Distinction of peace from war.
All societies (those that survive anyways) are repressive in wartime,
but Western societies reject imposition of wartime totalitarianism in
time of peace.
Respect for truth as an abstract value.
Free scientific and scholarly inquiry.
Artistic freedom.
the freedom of speech and of the press (mass media).
Rule of law. Respect for honestly-acquired property
Equality before the law, notably for women.
--Hugo S. Cunningham
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| User: "MTRP" |
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| Title: Re: What are the Western Values ? |
03 Aug 2005 12:38:03 PM |
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Hugo S. Cunningham wrote:
"MTRP" wrote:
Captain! wrote:
"DK" wrote:
"The DCLXVIth Earl of Helpus." wrote:
Next up: What if Kropotkin was a Seventh Day Adventist?
Cute reply but it ignores the obvious: that "Islam vs Western values"
upcoming long struggle is only version 2.0 of the "Communism
vs Western values" [Cold] War. Anyone refusing to see countless
analogies is simply in denial.
said former communists are an equal oportunity target as far as the
muslimsare concerned.
Hmm ... BTW what are those Western values?
As they have emerged in the last two centuries, a fusion of humanism
with the better elements of Christianity.
The concept has to be broad enough to include both the social
democracies of Westerm Europe and the more individualist liberal
democracy of the USA. Japan and Israel also fit, even though they are
non-Christian.
Some elements:
Separation of church and state
"Render that which is Caesar's unto Caesar, and that which is God's
unto God."
freedom of conscience
Distinction of peace from war.
All societies (those that survive anyways) are repressive in wartime,
but Western societies reject imposition of wartime totalitarianism in
time of peace.
Respect for truth as an abstract value.
Free scientific and scholarly inquiry.
Artistic freedom.
the freedom of speech and of the press (mass media).
Rule of law. Respect for honestly-acquired property
Equality before the law, notably for women.
Cool. Those Western values are dead horses, then, ... well, excecpt for
"Artisctic freedom" (that, in turn, could be easily confused with
pornography and blasphemy by faithful Islamic customers :-D ). Granted,
Internet is still free ... but I would say the only real & sacred
Western value is MONEY!
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| User: "Sydney Webb" |
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| Title: Re: What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
30 Jul 2005 07:37:47 AM |
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DK wrote:
In article <1122708766.922999.198260@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, "The DCLXVIth Earl of Helpus." <user13@heathens.org.uk> wrote:
Next up: What if Kropotkin was a Seventh Day Adventist?
Cute reply but it ignores the obvious: that "Islam vs Western values"
upcoming long struggle is only version 2.0 of the "Communism
vs Western values" [Cold] War. Anyone refusing to see countless
analogies is simply in denial.
Is that what they teach in the so-called 'British' North America? Here
in the Caliphate of Kamberra we know that Mulroney and his BNA forces'
'defensive' attack on Persia is merely version 2.0 of the "Mongols vs
Islam" War, where 1.0 was narrowly won by al-Mustasim's Abbasids against
Hulagu's horde.
[Follow-ups set]
- 'Abba' Syd Webb
--
"If allohistorians expect to accurately project the thinking of
political strategists, we must learn to avoid the briar patches of
thoughtful analyses."
- Bucky Rea on Disco Era political advisors
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| User: "The DCLXVIth Earl of Helpus." |
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| Title: Re: What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
30 Jul 2005 03:03:03 AM |
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DK wrote:
In article <1122708766.922999.198260@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, "The =
DCLXVIth Earl of Helpus." <user13@heathens.org.uk> wrote:
Next up: What if Kropotkin was a Seventh Day Adventist?
Cute reply but it ignores the obvious: that "Islam vs Western values"
upcoming long struggle is only version 2.0 of the "Communism
vs Western values" [Cold] War. Anyone refusing to see countless
analogies is simply in denial.
DK
Islam is irrelevant. The problem is religion per s=E9, and if you want
to be more specific than that, have a look at the Death Cult as a
whole, rather than just version 3.0 of it.
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| User: "Neil_Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri" |
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| Title: Re: What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
13 Aug 2005 12:01:34 AM |
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Don't worry you will have a lot on your hands will be very full then all
your theories will come to an end. The west is culpable in the crimes
against humanity especially against those who do not believe in Christ or
Mohammad. Now you are getting a dose of your own medicine and you deserve
it.
The DCLXVIth Earl of Helpus. <user13@heathens.org.uk> wrote in message
news:1122710583.675684.314410@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Islam is irrelevant. The problem is religion per sé, and if you want
to be more specific than that, have a look at the Death Cult as a
whole, rather than just version 3.0 of it.
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| User: "Captain!" |
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| Title: Re: What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
13 Aug 2005 06:16:55 PM |
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what a frikken stupid question.
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| User: "SCR Insurgency" |
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| Title: Re: What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
15 Aug 2005 02:25:36 PM |
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"Captain!" <SpammersMustDie@now.net> wrote in message
news:HbvLe.175969$9A2.97743@edtnps89...
what a frikken stupid question.
In that case, why didn't you ask it first?
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| User: "Captain!" |
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| Title: Re: What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
16 Aug 2005 03:34:34 AM |
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"SCR Insurgency" <FranceskiSux@MTRPsux2.de> wrote in message
news:Q_5Me.4289$Gx1.937@fe11.lga...
"Captain!" <SpammersMustDie@now.net> wrote in message
news:HbvLe.175969$9A2.97743@edtnps89...
what a frikken stupid question.
In that case, why didn't you ask it first?
another frikken stupid question.
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| User: "Ordog" |
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| Title: Re: What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
30 Jul 2005 05:57:40 AM |
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The DCLXVIth Earl of Helpus. wrote:
Cute reply but it ignores the obvious: that "Islam vs Western values"
upcoming long struggle is only version 2.0 of the "Communism
vs Western values" [Cold] War. Anyone refusing to see countless
analogies is simply in denial.
DK
Islam is irrelevant. The problem is religion per s=E9, and if you want
to be more specific than that, have a look at the Death Cult as a
whole, rather than just version 3.0 of it.
Anyone who equates an atheistic political ideology with a religious one
ought to have their head examined.
The fact that Islam appeals to certain people says a lot about the
state of modern society and its members disillusionment with the harsh
realities of the economic rationalist political system. As inequalities
become widespread in our society the readiness to accept simplistic
escapist solutions provided by religious groups increases among the
disadvantaged.
It is a very sad fact that many religious organisations actually pray
on such vulnerable people.
Ordog
"Beware of the man whose God is in the skies." Bernard Shaw
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| User: "Neil_Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri" |
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| Title: Re: What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
13 Aug 2005 12:05:48 AM |
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I guess those conditions have existed for 1,000 years ... is that the reason
why Islam/Muslims have been butchering people for that long? You need your
head examined.
Ordog <odbok001@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
Anyone who equates an atheistic political ideology with a religious one
ought to have their head examined.
The fact that Islam appeals to certain people says a lot about the
state of modern society and its members disillusionment with the harsh
realities of the economic rationalist political system. As inequalities
become widespread in our society the readiness to accept simplistic
escapist solutions provided by religious groups increases among the
disadvantaged.
.
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| User: "Robert Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
13 Aug 2005 03:36:52 AM |
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Neil_Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri wrote:
Anyone who equates an atheistic political ideology with a religious one
ought to have their head examined.
The fact that Islam appeals to certain people says a lot about the
state of modern society and its members disillusionment with the harsh
realities of the economic rationalist political system. As inequalities
become widespread in our society the readiness to accept simplistic
escapist solutions provided by religious groups increases among the
disadvantaged.
Inequalties have existed for at least 50,000 years, but Islam has
existed only 1400 (give or take). Explain that.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Uncle Buck" |
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| Title: Re: What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
13 Aug 2005 01:32:45 PM |
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On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 04:36:52 -0400, Robert Kolker
<nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
Neil_Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri wrote:
Anyone who equates an atheistic political ideology with a religious one
ought to have their head examined.
The fact that Islam appeals to certain people says a lot about the
state of modern society and its members disillusionment with the harsh
realities of the economic rationalist political system. As inequalities
become widespread in our society the readiness to accept simplistic
escapist solutions provided by religious groups increases among the
disadvantaged.
Inequalties have existed for at least 50,000 years, but Islam has
existed only 1400 (give or take). Explain that.
Islam is but one simplistic escapist solutions among many that have
existed for 50,000+ years. It's only one of the more recent ones, but
it is, just the same, a simplistic escapist solution. Just like
Christianity.
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=
http://surrenderingtothefall.blogspot.com
~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o
"I absolutely detest it when people quote
themselves." - Me
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| User: "Ben Cramer" |
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| Title: Re: What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
13 Aug 2005 05:13:19 PM |
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"Uncle Buck" <UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message >
Islam is but one simplistic escapist solutions among many that have
existed for 50,000+ years. It's only one of the more recent ones, but
it is, just the same, a simplistic escapist solution. Just like
Christianity.
True. True. ALL religions serve no other purpose than to act as a crutch for
the weak.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
13 Aug 2005 06:57:00 PM |
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On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 08:13:19 +1000 in alt.atheism, Ben Cramer ("Ben
Cramer" <bencramer7@hotmail.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
"Uncle Buck" <UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message >
Islam is but one simplistic escapist solutions among many that have
existed for 50,000+ years. It's only one of the more recent ones, but
it is, just the same, a simplistic escapist solution. Just like
Christianity.
True. True. ALL religions serve no other purpose than to act as a crutch for
the weak.
not to mention as an opportunity for the unscrupulous.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
#442. Want food NOW? Then try http://www.rtios.com/
- Yep, currently under test... Your opinion welcome.
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| User: "Ben Cramer" |
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| Title: Re: What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
15 Aug 2005 04:32:29 AM |
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"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:u42tf1p6f40em6b92cfaa9guglk7d6l9sn@4ax.com...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 08:13:19 +1000 in alt.atheism, Ben Cramer ("Ben
Cramer" <bencramer7@hotmail.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
"Uncle Buck" <UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message >
Islam is but one simplistic escapist solutions among many that have
existed for 50,000+ years. It's only one of the more recent ones, but
it is, just the same, a simplistic escapist solution. Just like
Christianity.
True. True. ALL religions serve no other purpose than to act as a crutch
for
the weak.
not to mention as an opportunity for the unscrupulous.
And that!
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
#442. Want food NOW? Then try http://www.rtios.com/
- Yep, currently under test... Your opinion welcome.
.
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| User: "Neil_Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri" |
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| Title: Re: What if Karl Marx was a Muslim ? |
16 Aug 2005 04:29:02 AM |
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Ben Cramer <bencramer7@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42fe707e$0$847$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com
..au...
True. True. ALL religions serve no other purpose than to act as a crutch
for
the weak.
I guess thats why racism, hatered, etc... are also religions too!
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