| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"quibbler" |
| Date: |
12 Nov 2006 10:43:20 AM |
| Object: |
What If Tongues Come From the Debil? |
In Jesus Camp they try to get the kids to start incoherently babbling in
tongues. But hey, I've seen the exorcist. How do they know that the
nonsense syllables they are babbling are from the Lard, as opposed to the
Debil? I mean for all they know, their indecipherable banter could be
saying "Jesus Christ can suck my fat, hairy, luciferian *****" in demon
dialect. Naturally, I don't really believe in any of that *****.
Tongues are just like scat singing or any other kind of stream of
consciousness word play. They aren't from any supernatural source. But
for believers out there, how do they know where their inspiration is
coming from? After all, if the Devil could fool pastor Faggard, he could
certainly fool ordinary mortals.
--
"I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort
to take away the power of rational decision, to
drain people of their free will--and a hell of a
lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in
their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all.
For most people, religion is nothing more than a
substitute for a malfunctioning brain." --Gene Roddenberry
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: What If Tongues Come From the Debil? |
12 Nov 2006 01:56:31 PM |
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"quibbler" <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1fc0fd10a1ce9c0f989745@news.readfreenews.net...
In Jesus Camp they try to get the kids to start incoherently babbling in
tongues. But hey, I've seen the exorcist. How do they know that the
nonsense syllables they are babbling are from the Lard, as opposed to the
Debil?
They know to check the badge number on the ID card that the holy spirit
flashes when he arrives.
Or something.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
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| User: "Cgiorgio" |
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| Title: Re: What If Tongues Come From the Debil? |
12 Nov 2006 10:53:26 AM |
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It is almost certain that these "tongues" are caused by "Debilis" (latin
debilis=weak, including those weak in their brains, including mentally ill)
who run those Jesus camps victimizing little children.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: What If Tongues Come From the Debil? |
12 Nov 2006 09:34:50 PM |
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On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 09:43:20 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:
In Jesus Camp they try to get the kids to start incoherently babbling in
tongues. But hey, I've seen the exorcist. How do they know that the
nonsense syllables they are babbling are from the Lard, as opposed to the
Debil? I mean for all they know, their indecipherable banter could be
saying "Jesus Christ can suck my fat, hairy, luciferian *****" in demon
dialect. Naturally, I don't really believe in any of that *****.
Tongues are just like scat singing or any other kind of stream of
consciousness word play. They aren't from any supernatural source. But
for believers out there, how do they know where their inspiration is
coming from? After all, if the Devil could fool pastor Faggard, he could
certainly fool ordinary mortals.
Why do you think they call it "blind" faith? It doesn't see anything
even as simple as what you point out.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but
not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."
-A. Einstein (1929 -- Einstein Archive 33-272)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: What If Tongues Come From the Debil? |
12 Nov 2006 09:58:12 PM |
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quibbler wrote:
In Jesus Camp they try to get the kids to start incoherently babbling in
tongues. But hey, I've seen the exorcist. How do they know that the
nonsense syllables they are babbling are from the Lard, as opposed to the
Debil? I mean for all they know, their indecipherable banter could be
saying "Jesus Christ can suck my fat, hairy, luciferian *****" in demon
dialect. Naturally, I don't really believe in any of that *****.
Tongues are just like scat singing or any other kind of stream of
consciousness word play. They aren't from any supernatural source. But
for believers out there, how do they know where their inspiration is
coming from? After all, if the Devil could fool pastor Faggard, he could
certainly fool ordinary mortals.
I meant to mention: I agree with you about these "tongues" not being
supernatural in origin. It's obvious to anybody with more than a few
neurons firing that the phenomenon is the result of overactive
imaginations and wishful thinking.
Sorry for leaving that out of the first post.
.
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| User: "Valerie" |
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| Title: Re: What If Tongues Come From the Debil? |
12 Nov 2006 10:28:10 PM |
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wrote:
quibbler wrote:
In Jesus Camp they try to get the kids to start incoherently babbling in
tongues. But hey, I've seen the exorcist. How do they know that the
nonsense syllables they are babbling are from the Lard, as opposed to the
Debil? I mean for all they know, their indecipherable banter could be
saying "Jesus Christ can suck my fat, hairy, luciferian *****" in demon
dialect. Naturally, I don't really believe in any of that *****.
Tongues are just like scat singing or any other kind of stream of
consciousness word play. They aren't from any supernatural source. But
for believers out there, how do they know where their inspiration is
coming from? After all, if the Devil could fool pastor Faggard, he could
certainly fool ordinary mortals.
I meant to mention: I agree with you about these "tongues" not being
supernatural in origin. It's obvious to anybody with more than a few
neurons firing that the phenomenon is the result of overactive
imaginations and wishful thinking.
Sorry for leaving that out of the first post.
I don't know about that. When I was at Sappho Camp, some of the girls clearly
had supernatural tongues....
--
"I remember how the meaning of words began to change. I remember how
"different" became dangerous. I still don't understand it, why they hate us so
much. ...the first time we kissed I knew I never wanted to kiss any other lips
but hers again... She grew Scarlet Carsons for me in our window box and our
place always smelt of roses. Those were the best years of my life...for three
years I had roses, and apologized to no one"
Valerie, in "V for Vendetta"
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: What If Tongues Come From the Debil? |
12 Nov 2006 09:22:11 PM |
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quibbler wrote:
In Jesus Camp they try to get the kids to start incoherently babbling in
tongues. But hey, I've seen the exorcist. How do they know that the
nonsense syllables they are babbling are from the Lard, as opposed to the
Debil? I mean for all they know, their indecipherable banter could be
saying "Jesus Christ can suck my fat, hairy, luciferian *****" in demon
dialect. Naturally, I don't really believe in any of that *****.
Tongues are just like scat singing or any other kind of stream of
consciousness word play. They aren't from any supernatural source. But
for believers out there, how do they know where their inspiration is
coming from? After all, if the Devil could fool pastor Faggard, he could
certainly fool ordinary mortals.
Since you've directed this to "believers out there", I'll take a stab
at it.
Forgive me if this seems patronizing, but you've made a great point.
It's one that actually gets made in the Bible, too.
A great many unbelievers are more biblically literate than most
Christians, so you probably already know this... It seems that at some
point in the history of a Corinthian congregation, "tongues" became an
issue of contention. According to the text, some Christians were
claiming that anyone who didn't "speak in tongues" didn't belong in the
church. The author of 1st Corinthians attempted to settle the debate
using an argument which was rather similar to your own question.
1 Corinthians 14:20-22 says, "Brothers, stop thinking like children. In
regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. In the Law
it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers;"
Apparently, some folks just couldn't imagine that something as
surprising and seemingly extraordinary as "tongues" might be a bad
thing.
But the author of 1st Corinthians knew otherwise. The bit "in the Law"
he quoted comes from Isaiah 28:11. The deal there is that God is
cheesed off at the people of Ephraim because they won't listen to him.
They prefer to get trashed on beer and wine, and end up barfing all
over the place and speaking gibberish. It's a pretty colorful bit of
writing...very entertaining.
Anyway, God decides that if these folks enjoy gibberish, then He's
going to go ahead and use gibberish to get their attention. Only the
gibberish God intends to use is the speech of an invading army, whose
language Ephraim can't understand. Maybe THEN they'll listen to God.
So, Paul's point in the 1st Corinthians passage is, "In the past, God
used strange 'tongues' to warn His people that they've earned His
wrath. If you think that your 'tongues' are any different, then you're
in for a rude surprise?"
Okay, so it's not *exactly* like your question. Sorry about that. But
the truth is that even today --even with that passage in 1st
Corinthians being available to Christians for so long-- some folks just
can't imagine that their "tongues" could be a bad thing.
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: What If Tongues Come From the Debil? |
14 Nov 2006 06:09:45 PM |
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In article <1163388131.723350.297210@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
mwphelps@gmail.com says...
quibbler wrote:
In Jesus Camp they try to get the kids to start incoherently babbling in
tongues. But hey, I've seen the exorcist. How do they know that the
nonsense syllables they are babbling are from the Lard, as opposed to the
Debil? I mean for all they know, their indecipherable banter could be
saying "Jesus Christ can suck my fat, hairy, luciferian *****" in demon
dialect. Naturally, I don't really believe in any of that *****.
Tongues are just like scat singing or any other kind of stream of
consciousness word play. They aren't from any supernatural source. But
for believers out there, how do they know where their inspiration is
coming from? After all, if the Devil could fool pastor Faggard, he could
certainly fool ordinary mortals.
Since you've directed this to "believers out there", I'll take a stab
at it.
Forgive me if this seems patronizing, but you've made a great point.
It's one that actually gets made in the Bible, too.
Sorry I didn't respond sooner. Yes, the bible contains a of smattering
of instances in which that god allegedly inspires speech, confuses it,
etc. Likewise, unclean spirits and demons are likewise able to produce
or inspire speech in the hebrew and xian testaments.
1 Corinthians 14:20-22 says, "Brothers, stop thinking like children. In
regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.
I guess I'd have to agree that many theists do try to maintain a rather
naive view of morality. I'm not sure that's really an advantage though.
In the Law
it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.
One sort of wonders why he bothers, in such a case.
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers;"
I don't find them a particularly convincing one, however. I know you
said that you don't believe that the babbling of many of these self-
professed speakers in tongues is supernatural either. So, given that
these folks are phonies, I'm curious who should be regarded as
authentically speaking in tongues as the above allusion to torah
mentions. Are they referring to soothsayers, or just speaking in some
overly broad way so that it's effectively impossible to disprove their
"prediction"?
But the author of 1st Corinthians knew otherwise.
I'm curious, based upon the way that you phrased this, if you mean to say
that there is some question that Pauline authorship for 1 Cor. I knew
there are some minor disputes, but I thought his authorship here was
pretty widely accepted. Or do you mean the person who inspired 1 Cor
(i.e. the guy upstairs)?
The bit "in the Law"
he quoted comes from Isaiah 28:11. The deal there is that God is
cheesed off at the people of Ephraim because they won't listen to him.
They prefer to get trashed on beer and wine, and end up barfing all
over the place and speaking gibberish. It's a pretty colorful bit of
writing...very entertaining.
Hummmm....the people of Ephraim sound pretty kewl, albeit in an
adolescent sort of way. I guess god, being an old guy, just can't resist
yelling at the kids to get off his lawn.
Anyway, God decides that if these folks enjoy gibberish, then He's
going to go ahead and use gibberish to get their attention. Only the
gibberish God intends to use is the speech of an invading army, whose
language Ephraim can't understand. Maybe THEN they'll listen to God.
Except it was already asserted that they wouldn't. And it's hardly clear
that the invading army was really sent by god. It sounds like it was
sent by human agency. Anyway, getting sloshed might not be the wisest
way to live, but it's not necessarily something that should be punished
by force of arms.
So, Paul's point in the 1st Corinthians passage is, "In the past, God
used strange 'tongues' to warn His people that they've earned His
wrath. If you think that your 'tongues' are any different, then you're
in for a rude surprise?"
Okay, so it's not *exactly* like your question. Sorry about that. But
the truth is that even today --even with that passage in 1st
Corinthians being available to Christians for so long-- some folks just
can't imagine that their "tongues" could be a bad thing.
If you don't mind me asking, what is it about the bible that you find
most reliable or compelling? As a student of the old and new testament
myself, I realize that could be a somewhat expansive and open-ended
question. But, in my view, the more I've studied, the more I learn about
it, the more unreliable and misinterpreted I find it. I was a former
believer too for a considerable period of time, but in thinking back on
my experience, I'm not sure what I ever saw in the bible. So maybe you
can refresh my memory. BTW, I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to
proselytize for the atheist cause or perhaps "convert" you. I'm really
not aiming for that.
--
"I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort
to take away the power of rational decision, to
drain people of their free will--and a hell of a
lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in
their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all.
For most people, religion is nothing more than a
substitute for a malfunctioning brain." --Gene Roddenberry
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: What If Tongues Come From the Debil? |
19 Nov 2006 11:36:02 AM |
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On 12 Nov 2006 19:22:11 -0800, wrote in alt.atheism
quibbler wrote:
In Jesus Camp they try to get the kids to start incoherently babbling in
tongues. But hey, I've seen the exorcist. How do they know that the
nonsense syllables they are babbling are from the Lard, as opposed to the
Debil? I mean for all they know, their indecipherable banter could be
saying "Jesus Christ can suck my fat, hairy, luciferian *****" in demon
dialect. Naturally, I don't really believe in any of that *****.
Tongues are just like scat singing or any other kind of stream of
consciousness word play. They aren't from any supernatural source. But
for believers out there, how do they know where their inspiration is
coming from? After all, if the Devil could fool pastor Faggard, he could
certainly fool ordinary mortals.
Since you've directed this to "believers out there", I'll take a stab
at it.
Forgive me if this seems patronizing, but you've made a great point.
It's one that actually gets made in the Bible, too.
A great many unbelievers are more biblically literate than most
Christians, so you probably already know this... It seems that at some
point in the history of a Corinthian congregation, "tongues" became an
issue of contention. According to the text, some Christians were
claiming that anyone who didn't "speak in tongues" didn't belong in the
church. The author of 1st Corinthians attempted to settle the debate
using an argument which was rather similar to your own question.
1 Corinthians 14:20-22 says, "Brothers, stop thinking like children. In
regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.
I find this interesting. I would suggest that believing in a universe
spanning being as well as eternal life isn't the height of adult
thinking.
Another part of the Bible indicates it must be approached with the mind
of a child. This would definately not be adult thinking.
[]
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
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| User: "Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian" |
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| Title: Re: What If Tongues Come From the Debil? |
12 Nov 2006 11:15:52 PM |
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quibbler:
In Jesus Camp they try to get the kids to start incoherently babbling in
tongues. But hey, I've seen the exorcist. How do they know that the
nonsense syllables they are babbling are from the Lard, as opposed to the
Debil?
Better yet, how about the whole babble coming from... well... the dark side?
*eg*
You know, the jews honored their deity on Saturday (and still do so)...
Saturday, as far as I know, was the day of Loki the trickster in the time
of my ancestors... what if the whole book was just his greatest prank ever
to be played on mankind? *chuckle*
--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...
My personal judgment of monotheism:
http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: What If Tongues Come From the Debil? |
13 Nov 2006 06:52:15 AM |
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Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian wrote:
quibbler:
In Jesus Camp they try to get the kids to start incoherently babbling in
tongues. But hey, I've seen the exorcist. How do they know that the
nonsense syllables they are babbling are from the Lard, as opposed to the
Debil?
Better yet, how about the whole babble coming from... well... the dark side?
*eg*
You know, the jews honored their deity on Saturday (and still do so)...
Saturday, as far as I know, was the day of Loki the trickster in the time
of my ancestors... what if the whole book was just his greatest prank ever
to be played on mankind? *chuckle*
Then, it's a pretty clever prank. Would Loki get ticked off if people
don't fall for it? I don't know anything about that deity.
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| User: "Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian" |
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| Title: Re: What If Tongues Come From the Debil? |
13 Nov 2006 02:07:07 PM |
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mwphelps@gmail.com:
You know, the jews honored their deity on Saturday (and still do so)...
Saturday, as far as I know, was the day of Loki the trickster in the time
of my ancestors... what if the whole book was just his greatest prank
ever to be played on mankind? *chuckle*
Then, it's a pretty clever prank. Would Loki get ticked off if people
don't fall for it? I don't know anything about that deity.
Good question. Loki's a really mysterious fella among them Gods according to
the sagas. Tales about him range from helping his archenemy Thor reclaiming
his stolen hammer Mjolnir (by suggesting that Thor fools the thief
disguised as a bride... imagine that!... the strongest and, I guess, most
macho of all the High Gods of the North in a veiled wedding gown! 8) ) to
his part in helping the forces of Chaos destroy the nine worlds - along
with almost all of the deities - during Ragnarok, the infamous doom of the
Gods.
I guess one could say with some justification that Loki's actually a
pantheon of many different aspects of himself ;)
--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...
My personal judgment of monotheism:
http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: What If Tongues Come From the Debil? |
13 Nov 2006 06:37:29 PM |
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Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian wrote:
mwphelps@gmail.com:
You know, the jews honored their deity on Saturday (and still do so)...
Saturday, as far as I know, was the day of Loki the trickster in the time
of my ancestors... what if the whole book was just his greatest prank
ever to be played on mankind? *chuckle*
Then, it's a pretty clever prank. Would Loki get ticked off if people
don't fall for it? I don't know anything about that deity.
Good question. Loki's a really mysterious fella among them Gods according to
the sagas. Tales about him range from helping his archenemy Thor reclaiming
his stolen hammer Mjolnir (by suggesting that Thor fools the thief
disguised as a bride... imagine that!... the strongest and, I guess, most
macho of all the High Gods of the North in a veiled wedding gown! 8) ) to
his part in helping the forces of Chaos destroy the nine worlds - along
with almost all of the deities - during Ragnarok, the infamous doom of the
Gods.
Funny! Stallone in a tu-tu.
So, Loki doesn't get destroyed with the other gods?
Where does the Loki of Catholic legend come from?
I guess one could say with some justification that Loki's actually a
pantheon of many different aspects of himself ;)
--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...
My personal judgment of monotheism:
http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
.
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| User: "Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian" |
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| Title: Re: What If Tongues Come From the Debil? |
13 Nov 2006 11:01:15 PM |
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mwphelps@gmail.com:
So, Loki doesn't get destroyed with the other gods?
Oh yes, he dies too. I'd have to look it up though if you ask me by whom.
Should be Heimdal if memory serves, but no guarantees on that one.
--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...
My personal judgment of monotheism:
http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
.
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| User: "Lucifer" |
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| Title: Re: What If Tongues Come From the Debil? |
13 Nov 2006 02:32:53 PM |
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Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian wrote:
mwphelps@gmail.com:
You know, the jews honored their deity on Saturday (and still do so)...
Saturday, as far as I know, was the day of Loki the trickster in the time
of my ancestors... what if the whole book was just his greatest prank
ever to be played on mankind? *chuckle*
Then, it's a pretty clever prank. Would Loki get ticked off if people
don't fall for it? I don't know anything about that deity.
Good question. Loki's a really mysterious fella among them Gods according to
the sagas. Tales about him range from helping his archenemy Thor reclaiming
his stolen hammer Mjolnir (by suggesting that Thor fools the thief
disguised as a bride... imagine that!... the strongest and, I guess, most
macho of all the High Gods of the North in a veiled wedding gown! 8) ) to
his part in helping the forces of Chaos destroy the nine worlds - along
with almost all of the deities - during Ragnarok, the infamous doom of the
Gods.
I guess one could say with some justification that Loki's actually a
pantheon of many different aspects of himself ;)
Fits with being a trickster, really.
--
Lucifer the Unsubtle, EAC Librarian of Dark Tomes of Excessive Evil and
General Purpose Igor
The Anti-Theist
"Don't worry, I won't bite.......hard"
--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...
My personal judgment of monotheism:
http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
.
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