What irritates me about _some_ xians.

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Dragonblaze"
Date:	10 Nov 2003 05:52:25 AM
Object:	What irritates me about _some_ xians.

I've never seen myself as a bigot as I'm happy to let anyone believe
in whatever they want, provided they do not harm others, but after a
long stint as a MSN debate chat room host I have noticed I'm more
suspicious of anyone identifying themselves as a Christian. Sigh.
Most, though not all, Christians who frequented the chat rooms I used
to host (EvolutionVCreationism, Ask An Atheist and Atheists'
Haven)were incredibly intolerant, ignorant, had a major attitude
problem and to put it simply, plain jerks with a chip of the size of
the Himalayas on their shoulders.
I don't get it. If Christianity is supposed to be a religion that
expects its adherents to love others like themselves, how come the
vast majority of Christians I have met online do NOT adhere to that
rule?
Hmm... Was there something about the Bible about knowing the tree by
its fruit? Then what can we say about Christianity based on its fruit,
the Christians who ignore one of its basic tenets?
Cheers,
Dragonblaze
.

User: "Dr. DuFonet"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	11 Nov 2003 08:31:55 PM

"Dragonblaze" <dragonblaze@apexmail.com> wrote in message
news:91a1dbfd.0311100352.6119e1f6@posting.google.com...

I've never seen myself as a bigot as I'm happy to let anyone believe
in whatever they want, provided they do not harm others, but after a
long stint as a MSN debate chat room host I have noticed I'm more
suspicious of anyone identifying themselves as a Christian. Sigh.
Most, though not all, Christians who frequented the chat rooms I used
to host (EvolutionVCreationism, Ask An Atheist and Atheists'
Haven)were incredibly intolerant, ignorant, had a major attitude
problem and to put it simply, plain jerks with a chip of the size of
the Himalayas on their shoulders.

I don't get it. If Christianity is supposed to be a religion that
expects its adherents to love others like themselves, how come the
vast majority of Christians I have met online do NOT adhere to that
rule?

Hmm... Was there something about the Bible about knowing the tree by
its fruit? Then what can we say about Christianity based on its fruit,
the Christians who ignore one of its basic tenets?

IT'S TRUE! IT'S TRUE! There is no shortage of so-called hypocrites. These
types take their forgiveness of all their sins and the guarantee of heaven
as a license to be ***** holes and even rip you off in business.
.

User: "Clayton the Decrepit Perverted Old Loser Nobody"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	10 Nov 2003 07:16:10 PM

"Dragonblaze" <dragonblaze@apexmail.com> wrote in message
news:91a1dbfd.0311100352.6119e1f6@posting.google.com...

I'm afraid that happened to me a long time ago. I sometimes get criticized
for how brusque I am with religious people, in particularly Christians.
Well I'm telling you, if I'm a bigot then I was made one by the behaviour of
Xtians that I have come into contact with throughout my life....not all of
them, but far more than just a few....and that was long before I even heard
about the internet. I've been here on a.a. for over 3 and a half years now
and the posts from many Christians on the Usenet have shown that every
prejudice I may have is thoroughly justified. I have found that much of the
worst scum of the world are those that wear a cross on their sleeve.
Again...not all....but more than enough to demonstrate that it is their
religion that has made them such assholes.

I don't get it. If Christianity is supposed to be a religion that
expects its adherents to love others like themselves, how come the
vast majority of Christians I have met online do NOT adhere to that
rule?

Hmm... Was there something about the Bible about knowing the tree by
its fruit? Then what can we say about Christianity based on its fruit,
the Christians who ignore one of its basic tenets?

Cheers,
Dragonblaze

User: "jwk"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	10 Nov 2003 08:11:42 AM

(Dragonblaze) wrote in message news:<91a1dbfd.0311100352.6119e1f6@posting.google.com>...

I've never seen myself as a bigot as I'm happy to let anyone believe
in whatever they want, provided they do not harm others, but after a
long stint as a MSN debate chat room host I have noticed I'm more
suspicious of anyone identifying themselves as a Christian. Sigh.
Most, though not all, Christians who frequented the chat rooms I used
to host (EvolutionVCreationism, Ask An Atheist and Atheists'
Haven)were incredibly intolerant, ignorant, had a major attitude
problem and to put it simply, plain jerks with a chip of the size of
the Himalayas on their shoulders.

I don't get it. If Christianity is supposed to be a religion that
expects its adherents to love others like themselves, how come the
vast majority of Christians I have met online do NOT adhere to that
rule?

Hmm... Was there something about the Bible about knowing the tree by
its fruit? Then what can we say about Christianity based on its fruit,
the Christians who ignore one of its basic tenets?

Cheers,
Dragonblaze

I think the big question is are these the typical xians or are they
the exceptions that just get noticed. Many of the nice sort have
asked us to believe that most xians are nice people and that the ones
who deliberately come to groups like yours and this one are the
***** exceptions. Same for the news - only the worst get on. I
guess I could believe that, but I suspect that the nice ones are nice
in spite of xian doctrine. Certainly the nasty ones can quote
scripture to justify their being pricks.
However it has been my personal experience that the majority of xians
are jerks when they meet an unbeliever.
jwk
BAAWA
.

User: "Roger Andrews"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	11 Nov 2003 10:41:47 AM

(Dragonblaze) wrote in message news:<91a1dbfd.0311100352.6119e1f6@posting.google.com>...

Most, though not all, Christians who frequented the chat rooms I used
to host (EvolutionVCreationism, Ask An Atheist and Atheists'
Haven)were incredibly intolerant, ignorant, had a major attitude
problem and to put it simply, plain jerks with a chip of the size of
the Himalayas on their shoulders.

Hey, I used to frequent AAA and AH quite a bit until MSN decided they
wanted to make everyone pay for chat. I was also a host in GIAL. My
nick in there was Mogons, who were you?
Roger
.

User: "Dragonblaze"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	24 Nov 2003 09:05:56 AM

Hey, I used to frequent AAA and AH quite a bit until MSN decided they
wanted to make everyone pay for chat. I was also a host in GIAL. My
nick in there was Mogons, who were you?

I was Dragonblaze - though I mainly hosted EVC, I had host rights in
AAA and AH. Just ask wooistme or hmm.... been a long time... even
Aarvarktype1A1 (or Desdenova) - they'll know me, as will most of the
_old_ AtheistsVsTheists crowd.
Cheers,
Dragonblaze
.

User: "Adam Marczyk"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	10 Nov 2003 08:58:21 AM

Dragonblaze <dragonblaze@apexmail.com> wrote in message
news:91a1dbfd.0311100352.6119e1f6@posting.google.com...

I've never seen myself as a bigot as I'm happy to let anyone believe
in whatever they want, provided they do not harm others, but after a
long stint as a MSN debate chat room host I have noticed I'm more
suspicious of anyone identifying themselves as a Christian. Sigh.
Most, though not all, Christians who frequented the chat rooms I used
to host (EvolutionVCreationism, Ask An Atheist and Atheists'
Haven)were incredibly intolerant, ignorant, had a major attitude
problem and to put it simply, plain jerks with a chip of the size of
the Himalayas on their shoulders.

I don't get it. If Christianity is supposed to be a religion that
expects its adherents to love others like themselves, how come the
vast majority of Christians I have met online do NOT adhere to that
rule?

Hmm... Was there something about the Bible about knowing the tree by
its fruit? Then what can we say about Christianity based on its fruit,
the Christians who ignore one of its basic tenets?

I'll say just one thing in Christianity's defense: The people you've
encountered are not necessarily a representative sample. The Christians who
are civil, understanding and polite, well, they're not very likely to go
online and "witness" to atheists, so you'll probably never meet any of them
in your chat rooms. The ones that do show up in forums like a.a., or like
yours, are a self-selected minority. They come there *because* they're
rude. (In my experience, the first time they show up, they're more naive
than rude. Not to put too fine a point on it, they expect reality to be
like it is in Jack Chick comics. They post some simplistic and time-worn
apologetics argument and expect the unbelievers to be converted en masse.
When this doesn't happen, they become first shocked and then bitter, and
that's when they devolve into the type of people you mentioned.)
--
"We have loved the stars too fondly | a.a. #2001
to be fearful of the night." | http://www.ebonmusings.org
--Tombstone epitaph of | e-mail: ebonmuse!hotmail.com
two amateur astronomers, | ICQ: 8777843
quoted in Carl Sagan's _Cosmos_ | PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737
----------------------------------------------------------------------
.

User: "Dick C"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	10 Nov 2003 12:10:09 PM

Dragonblaze wrote in alt.atheism

First of all, people who go around proclaiming their xtianity are
quite usually poor xtians, and have to let everyone know that they
are xtians.

Consider that the vast majority of people in the U.S are xtian, and the
vast majority of people on line do not go around proclaiming to the world
that they are xtian, then that should tell you something right off.

Hmm... Was there something about the Bible about knowing the tree by
its fruit? Then what can we say about Christianity based on its fruit,
the Christians who ignore one of its basic tenets?

Or, what can we say about the usenet that attracts these loons. These
loons are nothing like I learned what a christian was supposed to be
like, in the days when I was a christian.
Christ himself, did not even like that type of person. He had nothing good
to say about the people that went around praying in public, proclaiming how
holy they were to the world, and in general acting the way the people you
are complaining about act. He said that a person that was truly holy did
not act that way.
What you are seeing are people who worship the bible, and have chosen
to label themselves as christian.
--
***** #1349
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."
Andre Gide, French author and critic (1869-1951).
Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com
email:

User: "Levy Oates"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	10 Nov 2003 09:12:47 AM

On 10 Nov 2003 03:52:25 -0800,

(Dragonblaze) wrote:

I've never seen myself as a bigot as I'm happy to let anyone believe
in whatever they want, provided they do not harm others, but after a
long stint as a MSN debate chat room host I have noticed I'm more
suspicious of anyone identifying themselves as a Christian. Sigh.
Most, though not all, Christians who frequented the chat rooms I used
to host (EvolutionVCreationism, Ask An Atheist and Atheists'
Haven)were incredibly intolerant, ignorant, had a major attitude
problem and to put it simply, plain jerks with a chip of the size of
the Himalayas on their shoulders.

I don't get it. If Christianity is supposed to be a religion that
expects its adherents to love others like themselves, how come the
vast majority of Christians I have met online do NOT adhere to that
rule?

Hmm... Was there something about the Bible about knowing the tree by
its fruit? Then what can we say about Christianity based on its fruit,
the Christians who ignore one of its basic tenets?

Cheers,
Dragonblaze

Maybe we just meet the exceptionally stupid ones. I suppose all the normal ones
are to busy just getting on with their everyday lives to come and entertain us
here.
---------
Archdeacom Levy Oates
On behalf of the Prophet Eric Peabody (pbuh)
Basingstoke, England
http://www.angelfire.com/alt/bumblism/
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	10 Nov 2003 07:01:20 AM

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 03:52:25 -0800, Dragonblaze wrote:

I've never seen myself as a bigot as I'm happy to let anyone believe
in whatever they want, provided they do not harm others, but after a
long stint as a MSN debate chat room host I have noticed I'm more
suspicious of anyone identifying themselves as a Christian. Sigh.
Most, though not all, Christians who frequented the chat rooms I used
to host (EvolutionVCreationism, Ask An Atheist and Atheists'
Haven)were incredibly intolerant, ignorant, had a major attitude
problem and to put it simply, plain jerks with a chip of the size of
the Himalayas on their shoulders.

I don't get it. If Christianity is supposed to be a religion that
expects its adherents to love others like themselves, how come the
vast majority of Christians I have met online do NOT adhere to that
rule?

Hmm... Was there something about the Bible about knowing the tree by
its fruit? Then what can we say about Christianity based on its fruit,
the Christians who ignore one of its basic tenets?

Uh huh.
But if you point such a thing out, they'll start running around,
screeching "BIGOT!!!" at you.
Funny, I think, that the religion is so big on "witness" but when you
notice what their's is (more often than not I think), they don't usually
become concerned and introspective as to whether or not they're failing
this god they talk about.
They do their best to shoot the messenger.
Personally, I never found an exception. It's one of the reasons I finally
left...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
.

User: "Erica"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	11 Nov 2003 02:45:44 AM

In article <pan.2003.11.10.13.01.19.147919@eac.org>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 03:52:25 -0800, Dragonblaze wrote:

I've never seen myself as a bigot as I'm happy to let anyone believe
in whatever they want, provided they do not harm others, but after a
long stint as a MSN debate chat room host I have noticed I'm more
suspicious of anyone identifying themselves as a Christian. Sigh.
Most, though not all, Christians who frequented the chat rooms I used
to host (EvolutionVCreationism, Ask An Atheist and Atheists'
Haven)were incredibly intolerant, ignorant, had a major attitude
problem and to put it simply, plain jerks with a chip of the size of
the Himalayas on their shoulders.

I don't get it. If Christianity is supposed to be a religion that
expects its adherents to love others like themselves, how come the
vast majority of Christians I have met online do NOT adhere to that
rule?

Hmm... Was there something about the Bible about knowing the tree by
its fruit? Then what can we say about Christianity based on its fruit,
the Christians who ignore one of its basic tenets?

Uh huh.

But if you point such a thing out, they'll start running around,
screeching "BIGOT!!!" at you.

Funny, I think, that the religion is so big on "witness" but when you
notice what their's is (more often than not I think), they don't usually
become concerned and introspective as to whether or not they're failing
this god they talk about.

They do their best to shoot the messenger.

Personally, I never found an exception. It's one of the reasons I finally
left...

On the contrary, for me anyway, I only feel like shouting "BIGOT" when I
see someone making rather nasty generalizations about ALL Christians
based on the actions of a relative few.
And there also seems to be a tendancy with some atheists to dislike
Fundamentalists, but then not let any Christian *not* be Fundamentalist.
What was it called? A salad-bar Christian. But wouldn't that be a
strawman? "To be a *true* Christian, you must except the whole Bible as
inerrant, because that will make you more vile and easier to knock
down." I think of such people as atheist fundamentalists.
We're not all *anything*, you see, not even Christ-like, sadly. There
seem to be as many different points of view, and types of people, on the
Christian side as there are on the atheist side. We're all human, after
all. And everyone is at a different point in their journey. (Oh great,
now I sound like a New Age person. Yea.) Maybe I'll have it figured out
by the time I'm 80. Maybe.
That said, I must admit:
1) I cringe too. I wait to see what folks mean when they say they are a
Christian, because I've met some real muttonheads and been hurt, same as
some here.
2) As far as *I'm* concerned, you are asking the right question. Where
are the fruits!? What happened to love thy enemy and pray for those who
persecute you? What happened to turning the other cheek? Where's the
love, damn it!?
3) As for shooting the messanger, well, that's what the OT prophets
were for, you know -- to hold up the deep dark truthful mirror to the
Israelites on occasion. Not exactly a fun job, I bet. But needed. Keep
up the good work, prophet.
;)
About the only thing I can figure from the people I've met so far is
that some of these folks were broken before they became Christians, and
being Christians is the only thing that is maintaining them, or they'd
be in jail, drunk, or dead. But that doesn't mean it's terribly pleasant
to have a conversation with them, sadly.
Eh, enough already with the 3am ramblings. G'nite.
Erica (sleeeeeep!)
--
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
.

User: "Denis Loubet"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	11 Nov 2003 12:03:00 PM

"Erica" <scribe53151nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:scribe53151nospam-489AE3.02454411112003@newshost1.news.tds.net...

In article <pan.2003.11.10.13.01.19.147919@eac.org>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 03:52:25 -0800, Dragonblaze wrote:

I've never seen myself as a bigot as I'm happy to let anyone believe
in whatever they want, provided they do not harm others, but after a
long stint as a MSN debate chat room host I have noticed I'm more
suspicious of anyone identifying themselves as a Christian. Sigh.
Most, though not all, Christians who frequented the chat rooms I used
to host (EvolutionVCreationism, Ask An Atheist and Atheists'
Haven)were incredibly intolerant, ignorant, had a major attitude
problem and to put it simply, plain jerks with a chip of the size of
the Himalayas on their shoulders.

I don't get it. If Christianity is supposed to be a religion that
expects its adherents to love others like themselves, how come the
vast majority of Christians I have met online do NOT adhere to that
rule?

Hmm... Was there something about the Bible about knowing the tree by
its fruit? Then what can we say about Christianity based on its fruit,
the Christians who ignore one of its basic tenets?

Uh huh.

But if you point such a thing out, they'll start running around,
screeching "BIGOT!!!" at you.

Funny, I think, that the religion is so big on "witness" but when you
notice what their's is (more often than not I think), they don't usually
become concerned and introspective as to whether or not they're failing
this god they talk about.

They do their best to shoot the messenger.

Personally, I never found an exception. It's one of the reasons I

finally

left...

On the contrary, for me anyway, I only feel like shouting "BIGOT" when I
see someone making rather nasty generalizations about ALL Christians
based on the actions of a relative few.

Not me! I make nasty generalizations about ALL Christians based on the fact
they ALL respect a certain nasty bigoted BOOK.
Anyone who respects a book that says I somehow DESERVE to burn in hell
forever does not deserve my respect.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.

User: "jwk"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	11 Nov 2003 08:36:58 AM

Erica <scribe53151nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<scribe53151nospam-489AE3.02454411112003@newshost1.news.tds.net>...

In article <pan.2003.11.10.13.01.19.147919@eac.org>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 03:52:25 -0800, Dragonblaze wrote:

I've never seen myself as a bigot as I'm happy to let anyone believe
in whatever they want, provided they do not harm others, but after a
long stint as a MSN debate chat room host I have noticed I'm more
suspicious of anyone identifying themselves as a Christian. Sigh.
Most, though not all, Christians who frequented the chat rooms I used
to host (EvolutionVCreationism, Ask An Atheist and Atheists'
Haven)were incredibly intolerant, ignorant, had a major attitude
problem and to put it simply, plain jerks with a chip of the size of
the Himalayas on their shoulders.

I don't get it. If Christianity is supposed to be a religion that
expects its adherents to love others like themselves, how come the
vast majority of Christians I have met online do NOT adhere to that
rule?

Hmm... Was there something about the Bible about knowing the tree by
its fruit? Then what can we say about Christianity based on its fruit,
the Christians who ignore one of its basic tenets?

Uh huh.

But if you point such a thing out, they'll start running around,
screeching "BIGOT!!!" at you.

Funny, I think, that the religion is so big on "witness" but when you
notice what their's is (more often than not I think), they don't usually
become concerned and introspective as to whether or not they're failing
this god they talk about.

They do their best to shoot the messenger.

Personally, I never found an exception. It's one of the reasons I finally
left...

On the contrary, for me anyway, I only feel like shouting "BIGOT" when I
see someone making rather nasty generalizations about ALL Christians
based on the actions of a relative few.

Is it just a few? I think you see the good side of most Christians
because you are a Christian. I have seen the sweetest people turn
into mean, nasty, vile things once they discovered I was an atheist.
And I believe the majority of (US) Christians are this way. I could
be wrong, but I know you might never see, as a Christian, the side of
some of these people that I have seen.

[snip stuff that I agree with or at least don't have an argument for.
:)]

That said, I must admit:

1) I cringe too. I wait to see what folks mean when they say they are a
Christian, because I've met some real muttonheads and been hurt, same as
some here.

As soon as someone declares themself a Christian in a neutral social
setting, you know you have an ***** on your hands. Tell me, haven't you
ever piped up "me too" when this happens and all eyes are on you?
Just to avoid hassles? That's why they do it: to force declarations
of belief out of people. I've got two co-workers like that and they
just won't shut up. Bastards.

About the only thing I can figure from the people I've met so far is
that some of these folks were broken before they became Christians, and
being Christians is the only thing that is maintaining them, or they'd
be in jail, drunk, or dead.

It's an enabling device for assholes? (Funny story from Bill Cosby,
he says that he once asked a guy what the attraction for cocaine was.
The guy answered that it intensified your personality. To which Bill
responded "But what if you are an *****?")
Fortunately Erica, not everyone who is Christian is an *****. The
question is are they the minority or the majority. I think the
majority are neutral, but it seems like most of them root for the
assholes. They might not care if an atheist gets elected (to use one
example), but when the fundies start dragging a candidate through the
mud because he is an atheist, they don't object. They think "well, he
*is an atheist" and the crimes go on.
jwk
BAAWA
.

User: "Erica"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	11 Nov 2003 07:46:21 PM

(jwk) wrote in message news:<c6f5ba32.0311110636.196be5a1@posting.google.com>...

Erica <scribe53151nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<scribe53151nospam-489AE3.02454411112003@newshost1.news.tds.net>...

In article <pan.2003.11.10.13.01.19.147919@eac.org>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:

On the contrary, for me anyway, I only feel like shouting "BIGOT" when I
see someone making rather nasty generalizations about ALL Christians
based on the actions of a relative few.

I've decided I wish we weren't using the word "bigot." To strong.
Prejudging perhaps, based on past tramas.

Oh I wouldn't say *that*. You should have seen the look on a truck
driver's face when he asked point blank what kind of Lutheran I was.
This was after he'd been railing against my kind of Christian for the
last 5 minutes. I had to look him in the face, tell him, and then face
the onslaught. Same with a Catholic woman I met two weeks ago. Geez
louise, I should just start calling myself Erica the Heretic.
You bring up a good point, though. Those who turn on you the way they
do aren't showing the face of Christ as far as I'm concerned. I'm
starting to think the only one who was really good at that was Jesus
himself. I've had a couple of good pastors who weren't bad at it
either. Closer to home, stillsunny just blows me away, even though she
shuns organized religion for the most part. More should be like her.
Now that is what I call Christ-like.
And you make me think. Am I right in thinking that the jerks are in
the minority? Part of my problem is that, while the meek may inherit
the earth, they don't get alot of press, ya know?
Also, we are a Christian nation, but what does that mean? How
committed are people one way or the other. Some call themselves
Christians, but when you talk to them you can tell that it is a vague
notion in their mind, something they haven't given a ton of thought
to. Some of THOSE, while they send their children to Sunday School and
show up on Xmas and Easter, are almost borderline atheists and/or
agnostics. This last group is probably in the majority actually.
And some of us are in stealth mode, partly because we don't believe in
stuffing it into people's faces, and partly because of the
aforementioned cringe factor. (I don't want to make you cringe, even
if I'm not *that* kind of Christian. And I don't necessarily want to
get into conversations with folks like my truck driver "friend." Then
*I* get to cringe.)
So do we have any statistics on what people truly believe, based on
definitions we all can agree on? Is it knowable? Probably not.
Many of the Christians I meet on line are jerks. What do you think I'm
doing, hanging out here? So far, this is the best place to have these
kinds of discussions. I can be myself for the most part (except I
swear more than I let on here) Offline, about 3 or 4 of the professed
Christians at work make me nuts. Most of the folks at church are all
right, I think, or I wouldn't *be* there. Several of the professed
Christian at college were nice enough to a little agnostic girl (me at
that point), but weren't terribly helpful. Several were jerks. Most of
the "tract" people give me the creeps. Most of the Christians on
television either make me tilt my head, or make me want to kick in the
TV. Mother Angelica on the Catholic channel is an exception. She seems
cool.
Would you believe after all that, I can't say that I know for sure?
How sad. But you may be right. We may be looking at a majority of
jerks.

[snip stuff that I agree with or at least don't have an argument for.
:)]

That said, I must admit:

1) I cringe too. I wait to see what folks mean when they say they are a
Christian, because I've met some real muttonheads and been hurt, same as
some here.

Ayep. I can picture such a scene. People who bring it up out of
context. I usually keep silent, thinking to myself "Incoming!"
Forced declarations. That would be the street corner tract people.
"Are you a Christian?" "Ayep." "Well, do you believe that Jesus is
your personal savior?" or somesuch. In the time it take for the light
to turn from red to green, this person is going to evaluate me to see
if I'm telling the truth. Gromph. Get outta my face. Such subjects are
too serious to resolve in a minute and a half.
And then there's my truck driver. He spent his entire day evaluating
folks, and telling folks what they were doing wrong. He visited alot
of Catholics in his travels and it sounded like he gave most of them a
hard time. He'd ask them if they realized that praying to Mary was
idolotry, and bingo was a gambling, and both were sins, and so on. He
was finally told to stop it by his boss, not only because they were
getting complaints, but also because this guy wasn't exactly Speedy
Gonzalez as a result of all this talking.

When some of these folks tell you about themselves, I swear it sounds
like the only difference to their personalities between non-Christian
and Christian has been that they are no longer self-destructing. It's
no cure for a case of muttonhead, apparently, at least not right away.

Fortunately Erica, not everyone who is Christian is an *****. The
question is are they the minority or the majority. I think the
majority are neutral, but it seems like most of them root for the
assholes. They might not care if an atheist gets elected (to use one
example), but when the fundies start dragging a candidate through the
mud because he is an atheist, they don't object. They think "well, he
*is an atheist" and the crimes go on.

jwk
BAAWA

I wonder sometimes if the majority even know what's going on outside
their day to day world.
I'm guilty too. My eyes glaze over. It's enough just to survive some
days. But I did do something this last summer that made me feel good,
like I'd gone on a mission from God. There was an Arab gas station
owner here who was being picketted by a woman shouting about
patriotism because an employee of this guy had accidentally used the
red, white and blue as a drop cloth while painting. Someone had gotten
a photo of it, and it had been in the paper. He apologized, he fired
the employee, but she wanted a *notarized* apology and for him to go
on television to apologize to all veterans, among other demands, or
she wouldn't stop. I drove 20 miles out of my way to go get gas from
the guy, tell him that's why I was there, and give the protesters the
official thumbs down. I've never done anything like that before. It
was small, but it was something.
Ya still with me? I do ramble, don't I. And that's (pointing up) after
I edited some of it out!
Eh-heh.
Erica
.

User: "Denis Loubet"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	11 Nov 2003 09:52:58 PM

"Erica" <scribe53151@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6dfe32b8.0311111746.227d68e@posting.google.com...

jwkinraleigh@yahoo.com (jwk) wrote in message

news:<c6f5ba32.0311110636.196be5a1@posting.google.com>...

Erica <scribe53151nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:<scribe53151nospam-489AE3.02454411112003@newshost1.news.tds.net>...

In article <pan.2003.11.10.13.01.19.147919@eac.org>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:

On the contrary, for me anyway, I only feel like shouting "BIGOT" when

see someone making rather nasty generalizations about ALL Christians
based on the actions of a relative few.

I've decided I wish we weren't using the word "bigot." To strong.
Prejudging perhaps, based on past tramas.

(snip well written and well intentioned unintentional irony)
Erica, I have a question for you: Do you agree with your god, as described
in the bible, that atheists deserve to burn in hell forever for not
accepting Christ as their savior?
Past traumas are unnecessary for negatively prejudging followers of a
religion when the core beliefs of the religion require the followers to
worship a being that sends unbelievers like me to eternal torture. That
automatically puts any discourse between us on rocky ground, wouldn't you
think?
Or do you not have those core beliefs?
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.

User: "Erica"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	12 Nov 2003 10:07:35 AM

In article <84ydnRBtKP2UMSyiRVn-iQ@io.com>,
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:

"Erica" <scribe53151@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6dfe32b8.0311111746.227d68e@posting.google.com...

jwkinraleigh@yahoo.com (jwk) wrote in message

news:<c6f5ba32.0311110636.196be5a1@posting.google.com>...

Erica <scribe53151nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:<scribe53151nospam-489AE3.02454411112003@newshost1.news.tds.net>...

In article <pan.2003.11.10.13.01.19.147919@eac.org>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:

On the contrary, for me anyway, I only feel like shouting "BIGOT" when

see someone making rather nasty generalizations about ALL Christians
based on the actions of a relative few.

I've decided I wish we weren't using the word "bigot." To strong.
Prejudging perhaps, based on past tramas.

(snip well written and well intentioned unintentional irony)

Erica, I have a question for you: Do you agree with your god, as described
in the bible, that atheists deserve to burn in hell forever for not
accepting Christ as their savior?

Past traumas are unnecessary for negatively prejudging followers of a
religion when the core beliefs of the religion require the followers to
worship a being that sends unbelievers like me to eternal torture. That
automatically puts any discourse between us on rocky ground, wouldn't you
think?

Or do you not have those core beliefs?

Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet

Honestly, I don't know. I'm not that far. Here's where I am,
belief-wise). I ran headlong into Christianity (fundamentalism, I
suppose, specifically) about 15 years ago, got burned and took a giant
step back. I still believe (just not in fundamentalism) but I am going
at it rather slowly. I like the cut of Jesus' jib, and I've made a basic
committment, and done some reading, but I'm nowhere near certain enough
of anything to answer that question to your satisfaction. I need to know
a whole lot more about how the Bible was written and how much I'm taking
literally and a few other things before I'd even think of making a
pronouncement like that. Come see me when I'm 90. And personally, I
don't think I'll ever get to a point where I'd feel comfortable making
that assertion, to tell you the truth.
My standard answer is if this doesn't turn out to be a huge celestial
joke on Erica and there is a God, and he is a just God, then he will do
what is just. That is between the individual and him. It's not my
business to play God and decide who does and who doesn't go to hell, let
alone telling them so.
I also get the feeling that those who have you feel this way about
Christianity is likely in a whole lot more trouble than you are,
God-wise.
If that's a cop-out, so be it. That's about as honest an answer as I can
give at the moment.
As for my original objection:
I suppose a lot of my objections to the way words are used are coming
from my training as a journalist, and the fact that most of the logical
fallacy websites I looked up on the web turned out to be atheist sites.
If logic is going to be used, I rather expect that a position of
objectivity (or at least an attempt) should also be used, or it weakens
your argument.
Erica
--
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
.

User: "Denis Loubet"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	12 Nov 2003 01:55:47 PM

"Erica" <scribe53151nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:scribe53151nospam-B98B05.10073512112003@newshost1.news.tds.net...

In article <84ydnRBtKP2UMSyiRVn-iQ@io.com>,
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:

"Erica" <scribe53151@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6dfe32b8.0311111746.227d68e@posting.google.com...

jwkinraleigh@yahoo.com (jwk) wrote in message

news:<c6f5ba32.0311110636.196be5a1@posting.google.com>...

Erica <scribe53151nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:<scribe53151nospam-489AE3.02454411112003@newshost1.news.tds.net>...

In article <pan.2003.11.10.13.01.19.147919@eac.org>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:

On the contrary, for me anyway, I only feel like shouting "BIGOT"

when

see someone making rather nasty generalizations about ALL

Christians

based on the actions of a relative few.

I've decided I wish we weren't using the word "bigot." To strong.
Prejudging perhaps, based on past tramas.

(snip well written and well intentioned unintentional irony)

Erica, I have a question for you: Do you agree with your god, as

described

in the bible, that atheists deserve to burn in hell forever for not
accepting Christ as their savior?

Past traumas are unnecessary for negatively prejudging followers of a
religion when the core beliefs of the religion require the followers to
worship a being that sends unbelievers like me to eternal torture. That
automatically puts any discourse between us on rocky ground, wouldn't

you

think?

Or do you not have those core beliefs?

Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet

Honestly, I don't know. I'm not that far.

But it's the basic premise of Christianity, isn't it? The Jesus character is
there to save you, and what he's supposedly there to save you from is hell,
whatever that is.

Here's where I am,
belief-wise). I ran headlong into Christianity (fundamentalism, I
suppose, specifically) about 15 years ago, got burned and took a giant
step back. I still believe (just not in fundamentalism) but I am going
at it rather slowly.

Believe in what? If you do not take the bible literally, as fundamentalists
do, then how do you know what to believe? Why would you believe one thing in
the bible and not another?

I like the cut of Jesus' jib, and I've made a basic
committment, and done some reading, but I'm nowhere near certain enough
of anything to answer that question to your satisfaction.

Why have you made a committment to something who's basic premise you admit
you do not understand?
Do you worship the Jesus character, or just view him as a role model, or
just think that a few of the things he said make sense?

I need to know
a whole lot more about how the Bible was written and how much I'm taking
literally and a few other things before I'd even think of making a
pronouncement like that. Come see me when I'm 90. And personally, I
don't think I'll ever get to a point where I'd feel comfortable making
that assertion, to tell you the truth.

Then why believe any of it if you can't know that any of it is true?

My standard answer is if this doesn't turn out to be a huge celestial
joke on Erica and there is a God, and he is a just God, then he will do
what is just.
That is between the individual and him. It's not my
business to play God and decide who does and who doesn't go to hell, let
alone telling them so.

On the contrary, it is ESSENTIAL that you judge the god and it's actions. If
you don't, then you are abdicating your own responsibility for who you
decide is an authority that you should follow. If you refuse to judge
authority, then you are saying it does not matter to you if the authority
you follow is right or wrong, good or evil. That is amoral on the face of
it.

I also get the feeling that those who have you feel this way about
Christianity is likely in a whole lot more trouble than you are,
God-wise.

I'm an atheist, so that only applies within their belief system. But I get
your point.
However, since there is no OBJECTIVE standard by which we can judge whether
one is behaving as a Christian should, then it may very well be that those
people ARE an example of the way Christians are supposed to act. To say
otherwise is to claim you know what the God or Jesus character REALLY want.

If that's a cop-out, so be it. That's about as honest an answer as I can
give at the moment.

I appreciate honesty.
But to hold in high regard that which you do not understand, or refuse to
judge, is dangerously irresponsible.

As for my original objection:

I suppose a lot of my objections to the way words are used are coming
from my training as a journalist, and the fact that most of the logical
fallacy websites I looked up on the web turned out to be atheist sites.
If logic is going to be used, I rather expect that a position of
objectivity (or at least an attempt) should also be used, or it weakens
your argument.

Granted. But is it not justified to judge a group and its members by the
rules the group espouses?
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.

User: "Erica"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	14 Nov 2003 04:11:28 AM

"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message news:<1aydnVEyQNIlEC-iRVn-tg@io.com>...

"Erica" <scribe53151nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:scribe53151nospam-B98B05.10073512112003@newshost1.news.tds.net...

In article <84ydnRBtKP2UMSyiRVn-iQ@io.com>,
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:

"Erica" <scribe53151@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6dfe32b8.0311111746.227d68e@posting.google.com...

jwkinraleigh@yahoo.com (jwk) wrote in message

news:<c6f5ba32.0311110636.196be5a1@posting.google.com>...

Erica <scribe53151nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:<scribe53151nospam-489AE3.02454411112003@newshost1.news.tds.net>...

In article <pan.2003.11.10.13.01.19.147919@eac.org>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:

On the contrary, for me anyway, I only feel like shouting "BIGOT"

when
I

see someone making rather nasty generalizations about ALL

Christians

based on the actions of a relative few.

I've decided I wish we weren't using the word "bigot." To strong.
Prejudging perhaps, based on past tramas.

(snip well written and well intentioned unintentional irony)

Erica, I have a question for you: Do you agree with your god, as

described

you

think?

Or do you not have those core beliefs?

Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet

By the way, that was one nasty question up there. Do you have any idea
how long I sat there, blood forming on my forehead, trying to think of
a good answer to the theist equivalent of "Have you stopped beating
your wife," reworded to "Are you a jerk, or a hypocrite."
I...I...I...

Honestly, I don't know. I'm not that far.

But it's the basic premise of Christianity, isn't it? The Jesus character is
there to save you, and what he's supposedly there to save you from is hell,
whatever that is.

What is hell? Is it eternal torture, or eternal separation from God?
How much of the concept came from other pagan gods of the time?
Yes, having made a committment to Christianity, I suppose I have "fire
insurance" that will hopefully come in handy later. But that will take
care of itself when the time comes. But I'm more interested in how I'm
supposed to live, not what's going to happen when I die.

Believe in what? If you do not take the bible literally, as fundamentalists
do, then how do you know what to believe? Why would you believe one thing in
the bible and not another?

That's the point isn't it. If you don't take the Bible completely
literally (I don't) then what do you believe. Are all the stories of
the OT meant to be taken literally, or are some of them allegory. I'm
reading a book right now called "The Historical Approach to the Bible"
that I hope will give me a foundation for critical research into the
bible.
I'm also interested in the critical method of interpretation, which
focuses on understanding the historical context in which the Bible was
written. I'm interested in the problems of translation process, and
what was lost from the original Hebrew and Greek. I want to know what
theologians think was originally written in the Bible, and what might
have been added later on. And which Bible am I taking literally? What
about the books in the Catholic bible. Aren't they canon too? I'm also
reading a book called "The Bible as Literature" at the moment, trying
to find out about Jewish literary traditions. I want to know how much
the OT is a reflection of the Jews and how much a reflection of God.
The OT Jews seem so militaristic. If things were going their way, I
wonder if their way of expressing that was "God is on our side."
Literalism is for wimps ;). That would be the easy way out. It's a
journey. I understand some things now (or think I do), and expect
other things will become more clear as I go along. Like I said, see
me when I'm 90.

I like the cut of Jesus' jib, and I've made a basic
committment, and done some reading, but I'm nowhere near certain enough
of anything to answer that question to your satisfaction.

Why have you made a committment to something who's basic premise you admit
you do not understand?

I understand enough for me, for now. Looking at what I said there, I
realize I told you where I started, but not where I am. There is more
to it that the above.
(Skip this bit if you're not interested in the Gospel according to St.
Erica):
The basic nut, as far as I'm concerned, is what Jesus said were the
two most important commandments: Love God and Love your neighbor. I
understand what the fruits of the Spirit are supposed to be, and that
I don't see them in alot of my fellow Christians, and it makes me mad.
I believe that if God is supposed to be a father, then things make
more sense (to me anyway) that most of the laws boiled down to "Don't
do that. You'll hurt yourself." He doesn't cause you to get burned,
but like any good parent, if you do get burned you will get the added
lesson, "See, what did I tell you. Don't do that."
I think of ancient Hebrews as having been children in the faith, with
a child's understanding of God. I think the OT writings reflect that.
Jesus came at a time when that primative understanding wasn't enough
anymore. It was time to grow up. If the OT way of looking at things
was cool with God, Jesus wouldn't have been needed to set things
right.
As for the committment I made, for me, religion was just not something
I could leave an open question. Choose, or go nuts. I chose to say
"Okay, God, let's try it your way." Funny, some concepts in the NT
(grace, for example) didn't make sense to me UNTIL I'd made that
committment.
(Even so, I hate the designation "born-again." Once was enough,
thanks.)

Do you worship the Jesus character, or just view him as a role model, or
just think that a few of the things he said make sense?

All of the above, I suppose. I'm not sure about worship, exactly. I
never felt comfortable with flowery language. I will talk to God on
occasion in a normal voice. I might even swear at him on occasion.
What's the sense of thinking "darn" when God knows you really meant
"damn."
I follow Jesus' example (as in being Christ-like.) There were plenty
of stories in the NT that caught my attention. The woman at the well,
the men at the temple who wanted to stone a woman, the way he railed
against hypocracy, his caring for the poor, the fact that he hung out
with "sinners", the fact that he showed it was okay to have doubts
(Gethemane), get angry (moneylenders at temple) and other bits.
I suppose a commitment to Jesus the person came first, and realizing I
couldn't simultaneously think he was this uber cool guy who was also
nutty as a fruitcake because he said he was the son of God. But some
theologians say that "Son of Man" was there first, but "Son of God"
was added in later translations. One more thing I wanna check out.
(/Gospel)

Then why believe any of it if you can't know that any of it is true?

I'm not judging God. If Jesus is a reflection of God, then I feel
pretty certain that God is both loving and just. And if I believe that
God is love, and God is just, then he will do with each person what is
just. What that something is will be between you and him. It will
depend on what you've seen of Christianity, and what has led you to
your current position. If you see evil, and hypocracy, and you are
railing against it, then I believe you are railing against the correct
things. I just don't believe that is the true nature of the Christian
religion.

I also get the feeling that those who have you feel this way about
Christianity is likely in a whole lot more trouble than you are,
God-wise.

I'm an atheist, so that only applies within their belief system. But I get
your point.

Really? I'm impressed. Re-reading that, I have no idea how. What a
mess. I must have been out of coffee.

However, since there is no OBJECTIVE standard by which we can judge whether
one is behaving as a Christian should, then it may very well be that those
people ARE an example of the way Christians are supposed to act. To say
otherwise is to claim you know what the God or Jesus character REALLY want.

If that's a cop-out, so be it. That's about as honest an answer as I can
give at the moment.

I appreciate honesty.

But to hold in high regard that which you do not understand, or refuse to
judge, is dangerously irresponsible.

As I've said, I understand some, enough. I don't see how one could be
expected to understand the whole darn thing, all at once. Not with the
questions I have anyway.

Granted. But is it not justified to judge a group and its members by the
rules the group espouses?

And vice versa. Live by logic, die by logic. But since I wrote the
above, I've thought that perhaps I was trying to "herd cats" There are
as many views here as there are atheists. While atheism is a disbelief
of gods, so at first I couldn't understand why all the anger against
something that for you doesn't exist. Then I realized that if you see
Christianity as man-made, then what several of you are railing against
is an evil "man-made" religion. I do still wonder what came first,
the anger or the disbelief. Chicken or egg.
Anyway, once again, it's 4 am. What an addict I've become. Sorry it
took me so long to respond. I had to mull a bit. Time to go home and
to bed. Gnite.
Erica
.

User: "Just Jak!"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	15 Nov 2003 01:30:25 AM

I think of ancient Hebrews as having been children in the faith, with
a child's understanding of God. I think the OT writings reflect that.
Jesus came at a time when that primative understanding wasn't enough
anymore. It was time to grow up. If the OT way of looking at things
was cool with God, Jesus wouldn't have been needed to set things
right.

Erica

OK, so then if the editing of Jesus was cool, why was Muhammad needed
to set the record straight about what god wanted?
And if Muhammad was right, why did the angel appear to John Smith to
make yet another revision?
and so on...and so forth....
Why do you only give this Jesus fella credence for knowing the skinny?
Why not anyone else? Is it just his actions? Some of them are
pretty horrible and some of them are good examples of how to live. No
different than the lives of thousands of men and women through
history...
Is it because writings that are 1500 years old say he was the son of a
god?
Why do you believe that? Because you were taught that? Because it
says it in a book? Because you want to?
As an atheist, I'm always being asked why I don't believe....
I usually have one of two answers.
1. I ask if the other person believes in Santa Clause, or the Tooth
Fairy or Goblins or Hobbits. They say "no", I say "For the exact same
reason you don't believe in those things."
or
2. I ask why the believe and the answer is usually 'because', or 'I
can just feel God.' My question to that latter statement is then why
isn't everyone on Earth a believer in the same god? Do devout sunnis
feel a different god? Are they mistaken? Are the christians?
I'm always very curious...why do you believe? And do you think you
would believe just as strongly in Allah if you were born in Iran? Or
in Zeus if you were born in ancient Greece? Or in Krishna if you were
born in India?
.

User: "Denis Loubet"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	14 Nov 2003 07:45:52 PM

"Erica" <scribe53151@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6dfe32b8.0311140211.7f02add7@posting.google.com...

"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message

news:<1aydnVEyQNIlEC-iRVn-tg@io.com>...

"Erica" <scribe53151nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:scribe53151nospam-B98B05.10073512112003@newshost1.news.tds.net...

In article <84ydnRBtKP2UMSyiRVn-iQ@io.com>,
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:

"Erica" <scribe53151@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6dfe32b8.0311111746.227d68e@posting.google.com...

jwkinraleigh@yahoo.com (jwk) wrote in message

news:<c6f5ba32.0311110636.196be5a1@posting.google.com>...

Erica <scribe53151nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:<scribe53151nospam-489AE3.02454411112003@newshost1.news.tds.net>...

In article <pan.2003.11.10.13.01.19.147919@eac.org>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:

On the contrary, for me anyway, I only feel like shouting

"BIGOT"

when
I

see someone making rather nasty generalizations about ALL

Christians

based on the actions of a relative few.

I've decided I wish we weren't using the word "bigot." To strong.
Prejudging perhaps, based on past tramas.

(snip well written and well intentioned unintentional irony)

Erica, I have a question for you: Do you agree with your god, as

described

in the bible, that atheists deserve to burn in hell forever for not
accepting Christ as their savior?

Past traumas are unnecessary for negatively prejudging followers of

religion when the core beliefs of the religion require the followers

worship a being that sends unbelievers like me to eternal torture.

That

automatically puts any discourse between us on rocky ground,

wouldn't

you

think?

Or do you not have those core beliefs?

Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet

That's the corner that every christian paints themselves into because their
book is quite specific on the subject.
A "Have you stopped beating your wife" type question IS unfair, EXCEPT when
you ask it of someone who openly claims to beat their wife. Then it's a
justifiable question.
I have another knotty question I like to ask Christians: If you could go
back in time and successfully rescue Jesus from the crucifixion, would you
do it?

Honestly, I don't know. I'm not that far.

But it's the basic premise of Christianity, isn't it? The Jesus

character is

there to save you, and what he's supposedly there to save you from is

hell,

whatever that is.

What is hell? Is it eternal torture, or eternal separation from God?
How much of the concept came from other pagan gods of the time?

Regardless, the god decrees that the believer is saved, and the unbeliever
is punished. For eternity.
Do you agree with your god that this is just? If you do, say so. If you
don't, then you should question whether the god is just.

Yes, having made a committment to Christianity, I suppose I have "fire
insurance" that will hopefully come in handy later. But that will take
care of itself when the time comes. But I'm more interested in how I'm
supposed to live, not what's going to happen when I die.

How are you determining how to live? How does belief in the god help you to
determine this?

Believe in what? If you do not take the bible literally, as

fundamentalists

do, then how do you know what to believe? Why would you believe one

thing in

the bible and not another?

That's all well and good, but if you apply your critical faculties to the
bible to determine what to believe and what not to believe, then you are
editing the bible to say what you want it to say. You are, in fact,
determining how to live, all by yourself.
You don't need the bible, or the god.

I'm also interested in the critical method of interpretation, which
focuses on understanding the historical context in which the Bible was
written. I'm interested in the problems of translation process, and
what was lost from the original Hebrew and Greek. I want to know what
theologians think was originally written in the Bible, and what might
have been added later on. And which Bible am I taking literally? What
about the books in the Catholic bible. Aren't they canon too? I'm also
reading a book called "The Bible as Literature" at the moment, trying
to find out about Jewish literary traditions. I want to know how much
the OT is a reflection of the Jews and how much a reflection of God.
The OT Jews seem so militaristic. If things were going their way, I
wonder if their way of expressing that was "God is on our side."

It's always good to learn new things, and I'm sure your research will be
rewarding. However, I can't help but think that you will accept certain
findings over others, and as a result it will be YOU who determines your
interpretation of the bible, and your intepretation of what the god and
Jesus characters want of you. Again, it will be YOU that determines how to
live your life.
Again, you don't need the bible or the god.

Literalism is for wimps ;). That would be the easy way out. It's a
journey. I understand some things now (or think I do), and expect
other things will become more clear as I go along. Like I said, see
me when I'm 90.

Literalism is the tough row to *****. One has to struggle to make sense out of
a book riddled with obvious contradictions and errors. Their world is one of
paranoia and fear. But the reward is an incredibly seductive sense of
certainty.
The non-literalist has an easier time of it. Please forgive my
characterization here, but it seems they just pick and choose the passages
they want from the biblical buffet, and construct their own "special edition
bible" just for themselves, one that oddly agrees with all their
pre-existing biases.

I like the cut of Jesus' jib, and I've made a basic
committment, and done some reading, but I'm nowhere near certain

enough

of anything to answer that question to your satisfaction.

Why have you made a committment to something who's basic premise you

admit

you do not understand?

I understand enough for me, for now. Looking at what I said there, I
realize I told you where I started, but not where I am. There is more
to it that the above.

Ah.

(Skip this bit if you're not interested in the Gospel according to St.
Erica):

I suspect you intended that disclaimer as tongue in cheek, but it is the
literal truth.

The basic nut, as far as I'm concerned, is what Jesus said were the
two most important commandments: Love God and Love your neighbor. I
understand what the fruits of the Spirit are supposed to be, and that
I don't see them in alot of my fellow Christians, and it makes me mad.
I believe that if God is supposed to be a father, then things make
more sense (to me anyway) that most of the laws boiled down to "Don't
do that. You'll hurt yourself." He doesn't cause you to get burned,
but like any good parent, if you do get burned you will get the added
lesson, "See, what did I tell you. Don't do that."

I think of ancient Hebrews as having been children in the faith, with
a child's understanding of God.

Why do you think that? Don't you think it's pretty insulting towards the
ancient Hebrews?
The people of the past weren't stupid, they were just ignorant of what we
know today. To claim they were children is to claim they couldn't overcome
their ignorance. But if you raised a child of theirs, in the modern day,
that child would be no different from any other child of today, and it would
grow into an adult no different from any other adult of today.
Yet you judge that that adult is a child, and you are not.
Surely the god could have instructed them in the adult way of faith, and not
reserved such information only for today.

I think the OT writings reflect that.
Jesus came at a time when that primative understanding wasn't enough
anymore. It was time to grow up. If the OT way of looking at things
was cool with God, Jesus wouldn't have been needed to set things
right.

But that means the god wasn't telling the ancient hebrews the right way to
live, it seems the way they lived determined what the god said was the right
way to live.
It doesn't sound like "the right way to live" comes from the god, it sounds
like it comes from the culture and the century.
They didn't need the god or the bible.

As for the committment I made, for me, religion was just not something
I could leave an open question. Choose, or go nuts. I chose to say
"Okay, God, let's try it your way." Funny, some concepts in the NT
(grace, for example) didn't make sense to me UNTIL I'd made that
committment.

That's to be expected if one has to believe to believe.

(Even so, I hate the designation "born-again." Once was enough,
thanks.)

Do you worship the Jesus character, or just view him as a role model, or
just think that a few of the things he said make sense?

But now it sounds like being Christ-like means Anything Goes. If it's ok to
hit people with scourges, then what the hell ISN'T ok?
Do you know what a scourge is? It's like a cat o' nine-tails with barbs
added to the leather straps. It's designed to tear the flesh and inflict
great pain. This is what the Jesus character is said to have used on the
moneylenders.
How does this example jibe with Jesus being the bearer of the grown-up
version of the faith? It sounds more like the OT god.
With this example in mind, I urge you NOT to be Christ-like.

I suppose a commitment to Jesus the person came first, and realizing I
couldn't simultaneously think he was this uber cool guy who was also
nutty as a fruitcake because he said he was the son of God. But some
theologians say that "Son of Man" was there first, but "Son of God"
was added in later translations. One more thing I wanna check out.

But you have committed to him BEFORE you checked him out. Do you think
that's wise? Now you will have to try and second-guess your checking-out in
light of the necessary bias that your commitment entails. You now have a
conflict of interest. You might invent apologetics to cover for any negative
results you obtain.

(/Gospel)

I need to know
a whole lot more about how the Bible was written and how much I'm

taking

literally and a few other things before I'd even think of making a
pronouncement like that. Come see me when I'm 90. And personally, I
don't think I'll ever get to a point where I'd feel comfortable making
that assertion, to tell you the truth.

Then why believe any of it if you can't know that any of it is true?

My standard answer is if this doesn't turn out to be a huge celestial
joke on Erica and there is a God, and he is a just God, then he will

what is just.
That is between the individual and him. It's not my
business to play God and decide who does and who doesn't go to hell,

let

alone telling them so.

On the contrary, it is ESSENTIAL that you judge the god and it's

actions. If

you don't, then you are abdicating your own responsibility for who you
decide is an authority that you should follow. If you refuse to judge
authority, then you are saying it does not matter to you if the

authority

you follow is right or wrong, good or evil. That is amoral on the face

it.

I'm not judging God.

Then you don't care whether the god is right or wrong, good or evil.

If Jesus is a reflection of God, then I feel
pretty certain that God is both loving and just.

But wait, THAT'S a judgment! You ARE judging god. You have judged it loving
and just.
But then, what of the scourge, the OT, and hell? How do they fit in with a
loving and just god?
You have passed judgment on the god before you fully understand the god.
Is this wise?

And if I believe that
God is love, and God is just, then he will do with each person what is
just.

And if it's eternal suffering for me, you agree that such a judgment by god
is necessarily loving and just.

What that something is will be between you and him.

No. If you agree that the god is loving and just, then you agree that
whatever the god judges is a loving and just judgment. No matter what that
judgment might be.
If it's burning forever in hell, then that's loving and just.

It will
depend on what you've seen of Christianity, and what has led you to
your current position. If you see evil, and hypocracy, and you are
railing against it, then I believe you are railing against the correct
things. I just don't believe that is the true nature of the Christian
religion.

But that could simply be your bias.

I also get the feeling that those who have you feel this way about
Christianity is likely in a whole lot more trouble than you are,
God-wise.

I'm an atheist, so that only applies within their belief system. But I

get

your point.

Really? I'm impressed. Re-reading that, I have no idea how. What a
mess. I must have been out of coffee.

Clumsey phrasing on my part.
Since I'm an atheist, I don't believe they are in any trouble god-wise. But
I get your point.

However, since there is no OBJECTIVE standard by which we can judge

whether

one is behaving as a Christian should, then it may very well be that

those

people ARE an example of the way Christians are supposed to act. To say
otherwise is to claim you know what the God or Jesus character REALLY

want.

If that's a cop-out, so be it. That's about as honest an answer as I

can

give at the moment.

I appreciate honesty.

But to hold in high regard that which you do not understand, or refuse

judge, is dangerously irresponsible.

As I've said, I understand some, enough. I don't see how one could be
expected to understand the whole darn thing, all at once. Not with the
questions I have anyway.

Many things sound great at first. I'm sure all religions sound good. Somehow
you picked one.

As for my original objection:

I suppose a lot of my objections to the way words are used are coming
from my training as a journalist, and the fact that most of the

logical

fallacy websites I looked up on the web turned out to be atheist

sites.

If logic is going to be used, I rather expect that a position of
objectivity (or at least an attempt) should also be used, or it

weakens

your argument.

Granted. But is it not justified to judge a group and its members by the
rules the group espouses?

And vice versa. Live by logic, die by logic.

I don't follow you. What are you trying to say?

But since I wrote the
above, I've thought that perhaps I was trying to "herd cats" There are
as many views here as there are atheists. While atheism is a disbelief
of gods, so at first I couldn't understand why all the anger against
something that for you doesn't exist. Then I realized that if you see
Christianity as man-made, then what several of you are railing against
is an evil "man-made" religion. I do still wonder what came first,
the anger or the disbelief. Chicken or egg.

Well, I for one was not born with any god-belief, and nothing ever happened
to change that state. So a lack of belief is my natural state, and an anger
towards those I see perpetrating great harm on humanity comes second.

Anyway, once again, it's 4 am. What an addict I've become. Sorry it
took me so long to respond. I had to mull a bit. Time to go home and
to bed. Gnite.

Good night.
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.

User: "jwk"
Title: Re: What irritates me about _some_ xians.	14 Nov 2003 08:58:00 AM

(Erica) wrote in message news:<6dfe32b8.0311140211.7f02add7@posting.google.com>...

"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message news:<1aydnVEyQNIlEC-iRVn-tg@io.com>...

"Erica" <scribe53151nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:scribe53151nospam-B98B05.10073512112003@newshost1.news.tds.net...

In article <84ydnRBtKP2UMSyiRVn-iQ@io.com>,
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:

"Erica" <

> wrote in message
news:6dfe32b8.0311111746.227d68e@posting.google.com...

jwkinraleigh@yahoo.com (jwk) wrote in message

news:<c6f5ba32.0311110636.196be5a1@posting.google.com>...

Erica <scribe53151nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:<scribe53151nospam-489AE3.02454411112003@newshost1.news.tds.net>...

In article <pan.2003.11.10.13.01.19.147919@eac.org>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:

On the contrary, for me anyway, I only feel like shouting "BIGOT"

when
I

see someone making rather nasty generalizations about ALL

Christians

based on the actions of a relative few.

I've decided I wish we weren't using the word "bigot." To strong.
Prejudging perhaps, based on past tramas.

(snip well written and well intentioned unintentional irony)

Erica, I have a question for you: Do you agree with your god, as

described

you

think?

Or do you not have those core beliefs?

Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet

Honestly, I don't know. I'm not that far.

But it's the basic premise of Christianity, isn't it? The Jesus character is
there to save you, and what he's supposedly there to save you from is hell,
whatever that is.

What is hell? Is it eternal torture, or eternal separation from God?
How much of the concept came from other pagan gods of the time?

Yes, having made a committment to Christianity, I suppose I have "fire
insurance" that will hopefully come in handy later. But that will take
care of itself when the time comes. But I'm more interested in how I'm
supposed to live, not what's going to happen when I die.

Believe in what? If you do not take the bible literally, as fundamentalists
do, then how do you know what to believe? Why would you believe one thing in
the bible and not another?

That's the point isn't it. If you don't take the Bible completely
literally (I don't) then what do you believe. Are all the stories of
the OT meant to be taken literally, or are some of them allegory. I'm
reading a book right now called "The Historical Approach to the Bible"
that I hope will give me a foundation for critical research into the
bible.

I'm also interested in the critical method of interpretation, which
focuses on understanding the historical context in which the Bible was
written. I'm interested in the problems of translation process, and
what was lost from the original Hebrew and Greek. I want to know what
theologians think was originally written in the Bible, and what might
have been added later on. And which Bible am I taking literally? What
about the books in the Catholic bible. Aren't they canon too? I'm also
reading a book called "The Bible as Literature" at the moment, trying
to find out about Jewish literary traditions. I want to know how much
the OT is a reflection of the Jews and how much a reflection of God.
The OT Jews seem so militaristic. If things were going their way, I
wonder if their way of expressing that was "God is on our side."

Literalism is for wimps ;). That would be the easy way out. It's a
journey. I understand some things now (or think I do), and expect
other things will become more clear as I go along. Like I said, see
me when I'm 90.

I like the cut of Jesus' jib, and I've made a basic
committment, and done some reading, but I'm nowhere near certain enough
of anything to answer that question to your satisfaction.

Why have you made a committment to something who's basic premise you admit
you do not understand?

I understand enough for me, for now. Looking at what I said there, I
realize I told you where I started, but not where I am. There is more
to it that the above.

(Skip this bit if you're not interested in the Gospel according to St.
Erica):

The basic nut, as far as I'm concerned, is what Jesus said were the
two most important commandments: Love God and Love your neighbor. I
understand what the fruits of the Spirit are supposed to be, and that
I don't see them in alot of my fellow Christians, and it makes me mad.
I believe that if God is supposed to be a father, then things make
more sense (to me anyway) that most of the laws boiled down to "Don't
do that. You'll hurt yourself." He doesn't cause you to get burned,
but like any good parent, if you do get burned you will get the added
lesson, "See, what did I tell you. Don't do that."

I think of ancient Hebrews as having been children in the faith, with
a child's understanding of God. I think the OT writings reflect that.
Jesus came at a time when that primative understanding wasn't enough
anymore. It was time to grow up. If the OT way of looking at things
was cool with God, Jesus wouldn't have been needed to set things
right.

As for the committment I made, for me, religion was just not something
I could leave an open question. Choose, or go nuts. I chose to say
"Okay, God, let's try it your way." Funny, some concepts in the NT
(grace, for example) didn't make sense to me UNTIL I'd made that
committment.

(Even so, I hate the designation "born-again." Once was enough,
thanks.)

Do you worship the Jesus character, or just view him as a role model, or
just think that a few of the things he said make sense?

All of the above, I suppose. I'm not sure about worship, exactly. I
never felt comfortable with flowery language. I will talk to God on
occasion in a normal voice. I might even swear at him on occasion.
What's the sense of thinking "darn" when God knows you really meant
"damn."

I follow Jesus' example (as in being Christ-like.) There were plenty
of stories in the NT that caught my attention. The woman at the well,
the men at the temple who wanted to stone a woman, the way he railed
against hypocracy, his caring for the poor, the fact that he hung out
with "sinners", the fact that he showed it was okay to have doubts
(Gethemane), get angry (moneylenders at temple) and other bits.

I suppose a commitment to Jesus the person came first, and realizing I
couldn't simultaneously think he was this uber cool guy who was also
nutty as a fruitcake because he said he was the son of God. But some
theologians say that "Son of Man" was there first, but "Son of God"
was added in later translations. One more thing I wanna check out.

(/Gospel)

Then why believe any of it if you can't know that any of it is true?