What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?

Religions > Atheism > What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?

LINK TO THIS PAGE

rating : 0 | 0

Page 1 of 2

Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Truth Hunter"
Date:	07 Apr 2004 07:34:17 PM
Object:	What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?
The death of Christ on the cross must be considered the payment of a
supernatural penalty (a debt that we owe that someone else pays for)
It suggests some authority higher than God that forces him to kill his
son in order to satisfy it. If God is omnipotent can this make any
sense? it does suggest that God cannot act in a capricious or
arbitrary way to his own laws. This certainly means that he is not
omnipotent.

Why did Christ have to die to save people? I mean what's the link
between someone being killed in a most unpleasant way and reforming
human behavior. (And, if that was the aim of the exercise it's been a
miserable failure.)
Seems to me that it's Christ's teachings, not his death, that offer
the chance to live a life that's free of "sin." In which case, the
cruel death was unnecessary -- which makes it even more important to
ask Why did this god will his own son to die? If human sacrifice was
what was needed to placate such a god, then I have to ask why the hell
do you choose to believe in a vicious, vengeful deity?
Welcome To What Jews Believe
http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/
.

User: "Gomez Addams"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	08 Apr 2004 07:26:52 AM

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote

Seems to me that it's Christ's teachings, not his death, that offer
the chance to live a life that's free of "sin." In which case, the
cruel death was unnecessary -- which makes it even more important to
ask Why did this god will his own son to die? If human sacrifice was
what was needed to placate such a god, then I have to ask why the hell
do you choose to believe in a vicious, vengeful deity?

Let's see what the Word of Almighty God says.
Is 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And
the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Is 9:7 There will be no end to the increase of {His} government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold
it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of
the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.
The birth of the Messiah, and His Deity, were seen by Isaiah, a Jew.
Is 52:13 ś Behold, My servant will prosper, He will be high and lifted up
and greatly exalted.
Is 52:14 Just as many were astonished at you, {My people,} So His appearance
was marred more than any man And His form more than the sons of men.
Is 52:15 Thus He will sprinkle many nations, Kings will shut their mouths on
account of Him; For what had not been told them they will see, And what they
had not heard they will understand.
Is 53:1 Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the LORD
been revealed?
Is 53:2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out
of parched ground; He has no {stately} form or majesty That we should look
upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
Is 53:3 He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted
with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and
we did not esteem Him.
Is 53:4 ś Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet
we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Is 53:5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed
for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being {fell} upon Him, And
by His scourging we are healed.
Is 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his
own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.
Is 53:7 ś He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His
mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent
before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.
Is 53:8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His
generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke {was due?}
Is 53:9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man
in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in
His mouth.
Is 53:10 ś But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting {Him} to grief; If
He would render Himself {as} a guilt offering, He will see {His} offspring,
He will prolong {His} days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper
in His hand.
Is 53:11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see {it and} be
satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the
many, As He will bear their iniquities.
Is 53:12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will
divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of
many, And interceded for the transgressors.
The tortured death of the Messiah was also seen by Isaiah the Jew.
Ps 69:20 ś Reproach has broken my heart and I am so sick. And I looked for
sympathy, but there was none, And for comforters, but I found none.
Ps 69:21 They also gave me gall for my food And for my thirst they gave me
vinegar to drink.
The scene at Golgotha was seen by David, King of the Jews, as the
Messiah was given vinegar to drink. The Messiah died of a broken heart.
Ex 12:22 "You shall take a bunch of hyssop and dip it in the blood which is
in the basin, and apply some of the blood that is in the basin to the lintel
and the two doorposts; and none of you shall go outside the door of his
house until morning.
Ex 24:6 Moses took half of the blood and put {it} in basins, and the {other}
half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
Ex 30:10 "Aaron shall make atonement on its horns once a year; he shall make
atonement on it with the blood of the sin offering of atonement once a year
throughout your generations. It is most holy to the LORD."
Lev 4:25 'Then the priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering
with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and
{the rest of} its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt
offering.
Lev 4:34 'The priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering with
his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and all
{the rest of} its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar.
Lev 5:9 'He shall also sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the
side of the altar, while the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the
base of the altar: it is a sin offering.
BLOOD is the offering which the LORD God of Israel will accept. This is
according to MOSES who spoke with GOD face to face!
Ex 33:11 Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a
man speaks to his friend.
Ps 110:1 The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your
enemies a footstool for Your feet."
The Messiah sits now at the right hand of the LORD God Almighty,
according to David, King of the Jews.
Job 19:23 ś "Oh that my words were written! Oh that they were inscribed in a
book!
Job 19:24 "That with an iron stylus and lead They were engraved in the rock
forever!
Job 19:25 "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will
take His stand on the earth.
Job 19:26 "Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see
God;
Job 19:27 Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not
another. My heart faints within me!
The resurrection from the dead and the apperance of the REDEEMER at the
Last Day were foretold by the prophet Job.
WHY DO THE JEWS NOT BELIEVE THEIR OWN BOOK? I'LL TELL YOU WHY!
Deut 32:21 'They have made Me jealous with {what} is not God; They have
provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with
{those who} are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish
nation,
THE JEWS INFURIATED GOD AND HE SET THEM ASIDE AND REVEALED HIMSELF TO
GENTILES!
Is 65:1 "I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask {for Me;}
I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, 'Here
am I, here am I,' To a nation which did not call on My name.
Is 65:2 "I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who
walk {in} the way which is not good, following their own thoughts,
GOD HAS BLINDED THE JEWS BECAUSE THEIR HEARTS ARE SET AGAINST HIM!
Is 29:9 ś Be delayed and wait, Blind yourselves and be blind; They become
drunk, but not with wine, They stagger, but not with strong drink.
Is 29:10 For the LORD has poured over you a spirit of deep sleep, He has
shut your eyes, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, the seers.
Is 29:11 The entire vision will be to you like the words of a sealed book,
which when they give it to the one who is literate, saying, "Please read
this," he will say, "I cannot, for it is sealed."
Is 29:12 Then the book will be given to the one who is illiterate, saying,
"Please read this." And he will say, "I cannot read."
Is 29:13 ś Then the Lord said, "Because this people draw near with their
words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far
from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned {by rote,}
Is 29:14 Therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this
people, wondrously marvelous; And the wisdom of their wise men will perish,
And the discernment of their discerning men will be concealed."
IS THIS WHAT JEWS BELIEVE? DO THEY BELIEVE MOSES AND THE PROPHETS? DO
THEY BELIEVE THE WORDS OF THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB?
APPARENTLY NOT!!!!!

Welcome To What Jews Believe
http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/

User: "Robibnikoff"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	08 Apr 2004 07:53:51 AM

In article <gybdc.797$l75.517@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>, Gomez Addams
says...

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote

Let's see what the Word of Almighty God says.

First, let's see evidence that your god exists and said anything.
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	08 Apr 2004 08:59:21 AM

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 12:26:52 +0000 in episode
<gybdc.797$l75.517@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> we saw our hero
"Gomez Addams" <GomezzAddams@hotmail.com>:

WHY DO THE JEWS NOT BELIEVE THEIR OWN BOOK?

No, what you're upset about is they don't believe the christian
*reinterpretation* of their book.
It's just not the same thing Skippy...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism,
because it is a merger of State and corporate power."
- Mussolini
.

User: "Christopher A. Lee"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	08 Apr 2004 07:31:12 AM

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 12:26:52 GMT, "Gomez Addams"
<GomezzAddams@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote

Let's see what the Word of Almighty God says.

You meant to say the book of Christian mythology, which makes it at
most hearsay. I hope this helps.
But what kind of braindead idiot cites the bible as "proof" of
anything to the non-Christians on alt.atheism and alt.religion.islam?
And then uses this idiocy as the excuse for slurs against those
outside his religion?
.

User: "Comicboards"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	08 Apr 2004 01:30:37 PM

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com...

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

Why are you posting this on a Islamic newsgroup?
--
Discuss Politics, Race Relations, Gay Rights and Marvel or DC characters.
http://www.comicboards.org

The death of Christ on the cross must be considered the payment of a
supernatural penalty (a debt that we owe that someone else pays for)
It suggests some authority higher than God that forces him to kill his
son in order to satisfy it. If God is omnipotent can this make any
sense? it does suggest that God cannot act in a capricious or
arbitrary way to his own laws. This certainly means that he is not
omnipotent.

Why did Christ have to die to save people? I mean what's the link
between someone being killed in a most unpleasant way and reforming
human behavior. (And, if that was the aim of the exercise it's been a
miserable failure.)

Seems to me that it's Christ's teachings, not his death, that offer
the chance to live a life that's free of "sin." In which case, the
cruel death was unnecessary -- which makes it even more important to
ask Why did this god will his own son to die? If human sacrifice was
what was needed to placate such a god, then I have to ask why the hell
do you choose to believe in a vicious, vengeful deity?

Welcome To What Jews Believe
http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/

User: "Dore"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	08 Apr 2004 10:14:08 PM

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com...

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

What is more incredible that God could do for His children, then to come in
human flesh and give ALL, the most anyone could possibly give, HIS LIFE, so
that others may have the opportunity to be saved?
Since DEATH came into the world because of sin, then LIFE is required to
overcome death, and because GOD is extreme in ALL He is and does, HE gave
the ultimate sacrifice, for it is easier to give your own life, then to give
the life of your beloved child, so the extreme sacrifice and gift was given,
so that men would have the opportunity to be forgiven of their sins and
overcome death.
--
Dore
www.dorewilliamson.com
"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com...

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

The death of Christ on the cross must be considered the payment of a
supernatural penalty (a debt that we owe that someone else pays for)
It suggests some authority higher than God that forces him to kill his
son in order to satisfy it. If God is omnipotent can this make any
sense? it does suggest that God cannot act in a capricious or
arbitrary way to his own laws. This certainly means that he is not
omnipotent.

Why did Christ have to die to save people? I mean what's the link
between someone being killed in a most unpleasant way and reforming
human behavior. (And, if that was the aim of the exercise it's been a
miserable failure.)

Seems to me that it's Christ's teachings, not his death, that offer
the chance to live a life that's free of "sin." In which case, the
cruel death was unnecessary -- which makes it even more important to
ask Why did this god will his own son to die? If human sacrifice was
what was needed to placate such a god, then I have to ask why the hell
do you choose to believe in a vicious, vengeful deity?

Welcome To What Jews Believe
http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/

User: "sAnToLiNa"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	08 Apr 2004 10:27:31 PM

Dore <dorewilliamson@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:4yodc.15116$1y1.11871@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com...

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

What is more incredible that God could do for His children, then to come

human flesh and give ALL, the most anyone could possibly give, HIS LIFE,

No, He's God, He knew He would come back in three days and be God again.

so
that others may have the opportunity to be saved?

Since DEATH came into the world because of sin, then LIFE is required to
overcome death, and because GOD is extreme in ALL He is and does, HE gave
the ultimate sacrifice,

Illogical. God got to be God again after His "sacrifice". He didn't give
up anything except a little time as God and, since time means nothing to
God, that means He gave up nothing.

for it is easier to give your own life, then to give
the life of your beloved child,

But they are one and the same.

so the extreme sacrifice and gift was given,
so that men would have the opportunity to be forgiven of their sins and
overcome death.

Even I could endure a few hours of torture if I knew an eternity of
Lamborghinis and supermodels was ahead of me.
.

User: "Don calldonREMOVE IT @something.net"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	09 Apr 2004 01:03:20 AM

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 03:14:08 GMT, "Dore" <dorewilliamson@verizon.net>
wrote:

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com...

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

So you are saying that God simply refused to forgive people of their
sin???

Since DEATH came into the world because of sin, then LIFE is required to
overcome death,

SO you are saying that it was IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD to simply say "I
forgive you???"

and because GOD is extreme in ALL He is and does,

WHAT??? Can you PLEASE provide documentation for that idea???

HE gave
the ultimate sacrifice, for it is easier to give your own life, then to give
the life of your beloved child, so the extreme sacrifice and gift was given,

WHAT "Extreme sacrifice??? Was it IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD to simply
FORGIVE those humans, those humans whom God personally designed,
knowing that they would sin??

so that men would have the opportunity to be forgiven of their sins and
overcome death.

You are saying, in essence GOD WAS INCAPIBLE OF FORGIVNG SIN. God is
an impotent god??? Is that correct?
Qualem blennum!
.

User: "Dore"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	10 Apr 2004 07:22:10 PM

"Don" < calldonREMOVE IT @something.net> wrote in message
news:vrec70prcuecgj2efq7j5g9uaru1bki2h8@4ax.com...

So you are saying that God simply refused to forgive people of their
sin???

Why do you think God and heaven are some cheap dimestore gift to be received
easily?
God created a very deep, complex plan of salvation that is played out
through the whole history of the earth. God only forgives people of their
sin, IF they are repented of them and believe in the part of the plan that
gives them the opportunity to be forgiven, His Son, Jesus Christ. That way
He separates out the sincere, committed and faithful, from the complacent,
careless and shallow.
cont

SO you are saying that it was IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD to simply say "I
forgive you???"

No, nothing is impossible, however GOD IS GOD and HE makes the rules and to
be forgiven by God is a GREAT and WONDERFUL GIFT, and you should appreciate
Him more. If someone rapes and murders your child, how easy is it for you to
simply say, "I forgive you" and mean it?
cont

WHAT??? Can you PLEASE provide documentation for that idea???

It's called a Bible, pick one up and READ IT.
cont
WHAT "Extreme sacrifice??? Was it IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD to simply

FORGIVE those humans, those humans whom God personally designed,
knowing that they would sin??

No, but being evil, as humans are, they would simply take advantage of
something as simple as that, and continue sinning, without concern. Fact is,
even after all of the trouble God provided for man to be forgiven, they
still don't care, because they prefer to be evil. And being forgiven by God
is worth everything, and the most valuable gift God could give.
cont

You are saying, in essence GOD WAS INCAPIBLE OF FORGIVNG SIN. God is
an impotent god??? Is that correct?

NO, God provided a plan for forgiveness and simply abides by that plan. If
you don't like the plan, then that is YOUR problem and you won't BE forgiven
and then you have chosen your fate in hell. What have YOU done FOR GOD to be
given ANYTHING, much less forgiveness from Him?
--
Dore
www.dorewilliamson.com
"Don" < calldonREMOVE IT @something.net> wrote in message
news:vrec70prcuecgj2efq7j5g9uaru1bki2h8@4ax.com...

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 03:14:08 GMT, "Dore" <dorewilliamson@verizon.net>
wrote:

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com...

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

What is more incredible that God could do for His children, then to come

human flesh and give ALL, the most anyone could possibly give, HIS LIFE,

that others may have the opportunity to be saved?

So you are saying that God simply refused to forgive people of their
sin???

Since DEATH came into the world because of sin, then LIFE is required to
overcome death,

SO you are saying that it was IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD to simply say "I
forgive you???"

and because GOD is extreme in ALL He is and does,

WHAT??? Can you PLEASE provide documentation for that idea???

HE gave
the ultimate sacrifice, for it is easier to give your own life, then to

give

the life of your beloved child, so the extreme sacrifice and gift was

given,

WHAT "Extreme sacrifice??? Was it IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD to simply
FORGIVE those humans, those humans whom God personally designed,
knowing that they would sin??

so that men would have the opportunity to be forgiven of their sins and
overcome death.

You are saying, in essence GOD WAS INCAPIBLE OF FORGIVNG SIN. God is
an impotent god??? Is that correct?

Qualem blennum!

User: "Eric Witte"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	15 Apr 2004 03:22:44 PM

WHAT??? Can you PLEASE provide documentation for that idea???

It's called a Bible, pick one up and READ IT.

Its sick to consider fairytales *documentation*.
Eric
.

User: "Don calldonREMOVE IT @something.net"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	11 Apr 2004 02:43:00 AM

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 00:22:10 GMT, "Dore" <dorewilliamson@verizon.net>
wrote:

"Don" < calldonREMOVE IT @something.net> wrote in message
news:vrec70prcuecgj2efq7j5g9uaru1bki2h8@4ax.com...

So you are saying that God simply refused to forgive people of their
sin???

Why do you think God and heaven are some cheap dimestore gift to be received
easily?

Hello in there...anybody home?
Where did is say any of what you just accused me? Feel free to quote
me.

God created a very deep, complex plan of salvation that is played out
through the whole history of the earth.

Why? Why did God create a race of people genetically designed to fail
and then, when they fail, send them to burn forever with eternal
torment?

God only forgives people of their
sin, IF they are repented of them and believe in the part of the plan that
gives them the opportunity to be forgiven, His Son, Jesus Christ.

THAT is why the question was posted, CAN GOD SIMPLY FORGIVE SIN OR CAN
HE NOT???

That way
He separates out the sincere, committed and faithful, from the complacent,
careless and shallow.

So God will not forgive you if you are careless?
So God will not forgive you if you are shallow?
Gosh, that means half the preachers I know will not go to Heaven!?!

cont

SO you are saying that it was IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD to simply say "I
forgive you???"

No, nothing is impossible, however GOD IS GOD and HE makes the rules and to
be forgiven by God is a GREAT and WONDERFUL GIFT, and you should appreciate
Him more.

So God says, "Here is this wonderful gift."
And Bobby says, "Lord, I am just shallow and I need some time to think
about it."
And God says, "You BETTER LOVE ME or else, YOU ARE GOING TO BURN
FOREVER IN ETERNAL PUNISHMENT WHERE THE WORM NEVER DIES!!!
And Bobby says, "Let me think about it a minute."
And God says, "BURN, BABY, BURN!!!"
Is THAT what you are saying?

If someone rapes and murders your child, how easy is it for you to
simply say, "I forgive you" and mean it?

How about if someone loves and honors his family, honors other people,
gets straight A's in school, graduates high in his class, helps
little-ole-ladies, never lusts, always does the right thing. Can God
simply say, "I forgive you" and mean it?

cont

WHAT??? Can you PLEASE provide documentation for that idea???

It's called a Bible, pick one up and READ IT.

Ya can't document your cliche, can ya???

cont
WHAT "Extreme sacrifice??? Was it IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD to simply

FORGIVE those humans, those humans whom God personally designed,
knowing that they would sin??

No, but being evil, as humans are, they would simply take advantage of
something as simple as that, and continue sinning, without concern.

What's the difference between:
1) "sinning, without concern"
2) "sinning WITH concern???"

Fact is,
even after all of the trouble God provided for man to be forgiven, they
still don't care, because they prefer to be evil.

All of them "prefer to be evil???"

And being forgiven by God
is worth everything, and the most valuable gift God could give.

Then why doesn't God forgive people?

cont

You are saying, in essence GOD WAS INCAPIBLE OF FORGIVNG SIN. God is
an impotent god??? Is that correct?

NO, God provided a plan for forgiveness and simply abides by that plan.

The question was WHY can't God simple FORGIVE someone without
demanding absolute submission? Is it impossible for God to forgive
unconditionally, or is that something God can NOT do?

If you don't like the plan, then that is YOUR problem and you won't BE forgiven

So you are saying that God CAN NOT SIMPLY FORGIVE A PERSON unless that
person submits to a list of rules, correct?

and then you have chosen your fate in hell.

Wrong, Jesus said NO PERSON HAS CHOSEN HIM!!!
YOU did NOT choose Jesus.
John 15:16, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and
ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your
fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my
name, he may give it you."
John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the Father...draw him."
IF one can NOT choose Jesus, then HOW can one choose Hell?

What have YOU done FOR GOD to be
given ANYTHING, much less forgiveness from Him?

So, you ADMIT that you DID SOMETHING "for God to be given"
salvation!!! You finally ADMIT that you are saved BY WHAT YOU DID, by
your own works, not be faith in Christ.
How revealing...
"Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived."
-- Oscar Wilde
.

User: "Family Man"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	07 Apr 2004 07:52:24 PM

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com...

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

Nothing. It's a fictional myth.
.

User: "Tiger"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	07 Apr 2004 08:19:30 PM

"Family Man" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in news:on1dc.682$BR1.604
@okepread03:

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com...

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

Nothing. It's a fictional myth.

Just out of curiosity, what's a non-fictional myth?
--
Tiger
[Insert humorous, clever or profound quote here]
.

User: "Peter Terry"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	08 Apr 2004 06:01:35 AM

"Tiger" <Tiger@box.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns94C4D917E35E8jefscrrcom@24.25.9.43...

"Family Man" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in news:on1dc.682$BR1.604
@okepread03:

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com...

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

Nothing. It's a fictional myth.

Just out of curiosity, what's a non-fictional myth?

Go figure....your the tiger?
PeterT
.

User: "Family Man"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	08 Apr 2004 10:38:09 AM

"Tiger" <Tiger@box.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns94C4D917E35E8jefscrrcom@24.25.9.43...

"Family Man" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in news:on1dc.682$BR1.604
@okepread03:

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com...

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

Nothing. It's a fictional myth.

Just out of curiosity, what's a non-fictional myth?

Buddism.
.

User: "Jim07D4"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	08 Apr 2004 10:52:48 AM

"Family Man" <nospam@nospam.com> said:

"Tiger" <Tiger@box.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns94C4D917E35E8jefscrrcom@24.25.9.43...

"Family Man" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in news:on1dc.682$BR1.604
@okepread03:

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com...

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

Nothing. It's a fictional myth.

Just out of curiosity, what's a non-fictional myth?

Buddism.

Just out of curiosity, could you elaborate on a Buddhist story that is
mythical, and tell how it is not fiction? Does the story of Gautama's
enlightenment qualify as such? Are you thinking of Sutras and
Commentaries, that seem to be called myths at
http://www.gakkaionline.net/Myths/Lamp.html ?
(Myth: A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with
supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental
type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the
natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of
society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth. -
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=myth)
Jim07D4
.

User: "Tiger"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	08 Apr 2004 10:42:41 AM

"Family Man" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Oledc.3505$BR1.1760
@okepread03:

"Tiger" <Tiger@box.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns94C4D917E35E8jefscrrcom@24.25.9.43...

"Family Man" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in news:on1dc.682$BR1.604
@okepread03:

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com...

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

Nothing. It's a fictional myth.

Just out of curiosity, what's a non-fictional myth?

Buddism.

Good answer. Except that it's "Buddhism." I expect "Buddism" would
be the worship of flowers. ;-)
--
Tiger
[Insert humorous, clever or profound quote here]
.

User: "Fred Stone"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	08 Apr 2004 11:34:46 AM

Tiger <Tiger@box.invalid> wrote in news:Xns94C5774CC3D51jefscrrcom@
24.25.9.43:

"Family Man" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Oledc.3505$BR1.1760
@okepread03:

"Tiger" <Tiger@box.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns94C4D917E35E8jefscrrcom@24.25.9.43...

"Family Man" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in news:on1dc.682$BR1.604
@okepread03:

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com...

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

Nothing. It's a fictional myth.

Just out of curiosity, what's a non-fictional myth?

Buddism.

Good answer. Except that it's "Buddhism." I expect "Buddism" would
be the worship of flowers. ;-)

<Tommy Chong voice>
Yeah, man, flowers.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Cthulhu for President! Why vote for a lesser evil?
.

User: "Mark Richardson"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	07 Apr 2004 09:42:38 PM

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 01:19:30 GMT, Tiger <Tiger@box.invalid> wrote:

"Family Man" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in news:on1dc.682$BR1.604
@okepread03:

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com...

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

Nothing. It's a fictional myth.

Just out of curiosity, what's a non-fictional myth?

A myth based on fact.
(Obvious answer to an obvious question)
A myth is a "culturally important story" a story that conveys a
message - a moral or some message of cultural/religious identity for
example.
The myth can be the story of George Washington winning battles in the
American War of Independence or tyhe myth can be about Jason killing
the many headed Hydra.
A myth is a (traditional) story that tells you who you are and what
you (and your people) believe in - it can be based on facts or be a
pure work of imaginative fiction or more generally a mixture of the
two.
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau
"My name is Mark I am a recovering Skeptic
(AKA Muddy Boggs, AKA Donald R. Alford AKA ...)
debater. It is 014 days since I last tried to argue
with him."
You too can quit! Take the pledge!
.

User: "Tiger"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	07 Apr 2004 10:13:32 PM

Mark Richardson <mark.richardson@die.spammers.die> wrote in
news:8ge97014cnl8vvskn0gpr57f8hgsk23dnc@4ax.com:

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 01:19:30 GMT, Tiger <Tiger@box.invalid> wrote:

"Family Man" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in news:on1dc.682$BR1.604
@okepread03:

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com...

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

Nothing. It's a fictional myth.

Just out of curiosity, what's a non-fictional myth?

A myth based on fact.
(Obvious answer to an obvious question)

A myth is a "culturally important story" a story that conveys a
message - a moral or some message of cultural/religious identity
for example.
The myth can be the story of George Washington winning battles in
the American War of Independence or tyhe myth can be about Jason
killing the many headed Hydra.

A myth is a (traditional) story that tells you who you are and
what you (and your people) believe in - it can be based on facts
or be a pure work of imaginative fiction or more generally a
mixture of the two.

Yes, I'm aware. I wanted to know if "Family Man" was aware.
--
Tiger
[Insert humorous, clever or profound quote here]
.

User: "William"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	08 Apr 2004 01:43:06 AM

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 02:42:38 GMT, Mark Richardson
<mark.richardson@die.spammers.die> wrote:

Tiger <Tiger@box.invalid> wrote:

"Family Man" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wote

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

Nothing. It's a fictional myth.

Just out of curiosity, what's a non-fictional myth?

A myth can be used to illustrate something non-mythical but how does
it tell you something new?
William
.

User: "Jim07D4"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	07 Apr 2004 11:41:59 PM

(Truth Hunter) said:

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

Just guessing here. Maybe his son did something really bad, that we
don't know about?
Jim07D4
.

User: "mugz"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	07 Apr 2004 08:54:45 PM

(Truth Hunter) wrote in
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com:

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

Your post shows you do not grasp even the basic fundamentals
of either Christianity or Judiasm. (Of course Judiasm today is
nothing like the religion that was practiced at the time of Jesus,
what exists today and is called 'Judiasm' is at best, a mere
shadow of that).
One issue I will address is the issue of Gods omnipotence. Your
question is like the one that says 'Can God make a rock so big that
He Himself cannot lift it?' - From a Biblical perspective, (Old or
New Testament) - the answer is 'no', does that mean that God, if He
exists is not, 'omnipotent' - again, the answer is 'no'.
Omnipotence from a Biblical perspective relates to the supremacy of
Gods will and His nature, ie God has a specific nature, being 'Holy'
and that nature cannot change, nore can the will of God be overcome.
Furthermore, from a Christian perspective, Jesus was not just the Son of
God, Jesus was God Himself manifest in the flesh.
Just as there are natural laws of the physical universe, according to the
Bible there are spiritual laws with consequences that God Himself cannot
change. The Bible, again, both Old and New Testaments, teach that one of
the spiritual laws states that the penalty for 'sin' (sin being the
choice of mankind to disobey our Creator). This is something God Himself
cannot change.
In Judiasm there is a concept of a 'scapegoat' - figuratively
representing one who is innocent bearing the penalty of a sinner.
Christianity applies this concept to all of mankind through Jesus - ie
while it is perhaps possible for one innocent man to take the place of
one who is guilty, it took God Himself to pay the penalty for all of
mankind; That God loved mankind so much, inspite of mankinds faulures and
sinfulness, that He Himself was willing to pay the price for our
redemption, is the basic message of Christianity.
If you have more questions, I suggest you meet with few pastors of local
churches.
mugz

Welcome To What Jews Believe
http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/

User: "Vic Sagerquist"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	07 Apr 2004 10:14:43 PM

One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach mugz:

hunter77099@yahoo.com (Truth Hunter) wrote in
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com:

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

If the god is omni (all) potent (powerful) then there is nothing he
cannot do. I've heard Dr. Schuller say it. "With God all things are
possible." Has the word "all" been re-defined? If so, then that time I
told my mother I ate all my liver, then fed the rest to the dog, I wasn't
lying. Wow.

Omnipotence from a Biblical perspective relates to the supremacy of
Gods will and His nature, ie God has a specific nature, being 'Holy'
and that nature cannot change, nore can the will of God be overcome.

IOW, he doesn't have to be all powerful to be all powerful. OK, that
makes sense. <G>

Furthermore, from a Christian perspective, Jesus was not just the Son
of God, Jesus was God Himself manifest in the flesh.

From an atheist's perspective, he was his own son *and* his own father at
the same time. Not to mention Uncle Ghosty. No wonder they like him so
much in Alabama.

Just as there are natural laws of the physical universe, according to
the Bible there are spiritual laws with consequences that God Himself
cannot change. The Bible, again, both Old and New Testaments, teach
that one of the spiritual laws states that the penalty for 'sin' (sin
being the choice of mankind to disobey our Creator). This is something
God Himself cannot change.

So much for omnipotence.

In Judiasm there is a concept of a 'scapegoat' - figuratively
representing one who is innocent bearing the penalty of a sinner.
Christianity applies this concept to all of mankind through Jesus - ie
while it is perhaps possible for one innocent man to take the place of
one who is guilty, it took God Himself to pay the penalty for all of
mankind; That God loved mankind so much, inspite of mankinds faulures
and sinfulness, that He Himself was willing to pay the price for our
redemption, is the basic message of Christianity.

Since sin is a concept of the bible, all you have to do to cleanse
yourself of sin is to cleanse yourself of religion. I did, and I'm no
longer a sinner.

If you have more questions, I suggest you meet with few pastors of
local churches.

Yup. Spread the confusion and feel real good about it. Be sure to leave
your brain at the door.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
______________
Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day.
Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.
--Timothy Jones
.

User: "JackNunn"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	08 Apr 2004 03:19:27 PM

mugz <mckenzie839@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xns94C4C04AA7AF1mckenzie839hotmailco@216.196.105.130>...

hunter77099@yahoo.com (Truth Hunter) wrote in
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com:

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

Forgiveness without punishment is possible in the physical
world, why should it be impossible in the spiritual?
Are you saying god is incapable of forgiving someone
for not obeying his orders? That seems a very strange
restriction on any being that has free will. Or are you
claiming that god has no free will.

In Judiasm there is a concept of a 'scapegoat' - figuratively
representing one who is innocent bearing the penalty of a sinner.

My problem is I find the scapegoat concept morally repugnant.
The idea that it is ok to punish an innocent to make up for the
wrongs of the guilty is just wrong. Either punish the guilty or
forgive them, there is no excuse for punishing the innocent.
This is one of the reasons I reject Christianity. The entire
religion is biased on the idea that it is morally acceptable
to punish the innocent for the wrongs of others. To me it
does not matter if the innocent volunteered, the entire
concept is morally wrong. The Christian god demands his
pound of flesh and doesn't care who it gets it from. He
would rather kill his own son then just forgive. That is
not a creature I find worthy of worship. Trying to
pass this off as some kind of "spiritual law" is just *****.

Christianity applies this concept to all of mankind through Jesus - ie
while it is perhaps possible for one innocent man to take the place of
one who is guilty, it took God Himself to pay the penalty for all of
mankind; That God loved mankind so much, inspite of mankinds faulures and
sinfulness, that He Himself was willing to pay the price for our
redemption, is the basic message of Christianity.

If you have more questions, I suggest you meet with few pastors of local
churches.

mugz

Welcome To What Jews Believe
http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/

User: "mugz"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	08 Apr 2004 09:10:39 PM

(JackNunn) wrote in
news:4a542dc.0404081219.694e2bff@posting.google.com:

mugz <mckenzie839@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<Xns94C4C04AA7AF1mckenzie839hotmailco@216.196.105.130>...

hunter77099@yahoo.com (Truth Hunter) wrote in
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com:

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

The bible teaches that is is 'impossible' for God to lie - therefore
as we understand 'free will' (ie as relates to the freedom to lie or to
sin for that matter), it is biblically impossible for God to do so. If
God has a specific nature that does not change, the God is limited by
that nature.
Futhermore, according to the Bible, it is Gods nature love and reward
goodness and righteousness and to hate and punish evil and wickedness -
eternally. It is therefore fitting with His nature to create beings
capable of making the choice and to provide a means by which they can
freely do so.

In Judiasm there is a concept of a 'scapegoat' - figuratively
representing one who is innocent bearing the penalty of a sinner.

My problem is I find the scapegoat concept morally repugnant.
The idea that it is ok to punish an innocent to make up for the
wrongs of the guilty is just wrong. Either punish the guilty or
forgive them, there is no excuse for punishing the innocent.

This is one of the reasons I reject Christianity. The entire
religion is biased on the idea that it is morally acceptable
to punish the innocent for the wrongs of others. To me it
does not matter if the innocent volunteered, the entire
concept is morally wrong. The Christian god demands his
pound of flesh and doesn't care who it gets it from. He
would rather kill his own son then just forgive. That is
not a creature I find worthy of worship. Trying to
pass this off as some kind of "spiritual law" is just *****.

As I stated earlier, the New Testament teachest that Jesus was God,
manifest in the flesh.
You also forget, or perhaps you never knew, that God sees us as
'children' - parents often suffer the consequences for the actions of
their children - because the children are not wise enough in certain
situaions to determine right from wrong, and the parents are deemed
responsible.
Consider that some Jesus last words on the cross were 'Father, forgive
them for they know not what they do".
Whether or not you think all this is 'morally right' or not, if it is
true, then your opinion about it makes no difference. Things are the way
they are.
peace
mugz

Christianity applies this concept to all of mankind through Jesus -
ie while it is perhaps possible for one innocent man to take the
place of one who is guilty, it took God Himself to pay the penalty
for all of mankind; That God loved mankind so much, inspite of
mankinds faulures and sinfulness, that He Himself was willing to pay
the price for our redemption, is the basic message of Christianity.

If you have more questions, I suggest you meet with few pastors of
local churches.

mugz

Welcome To What Jews Believe
http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/

User: "JackNunn"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	09 Apr 2004 09:01:27 AM

mugz <mckenzie839@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xns94C5C300F2DC5mckenzie839hotmailco@216.196.105.130>...

joat_mon@hotmail.com (JackNunn) wrote in
news:4a542dc.0404081219.694e2bff@posting.google.com:

mugz <mckenzie839@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<Xns94C4C04AA7AF1mckenzie839hotmailco@216.196.105.130>...

hunter77099@yahoo.com (Truth Hunter) wrote in
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com:

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

It appears you are making god into an amoral creature who
is incapable of making moral choices.
If god has a specific nature and he is incapable of changing
or acting contrary to that nature than he is, by definition, amoral.
Using your statement above for an example: telling
the truth is not moral if you are incapable of lying.

Futhermore, according to the Bible, it is Gods nature love and reward
goodness and righteousness and to hate and punish evil and wickedness -
eternally. It is therefore fitting with His nature to create beings
capable of making the choice and to provide a means by which they can
freely do so.

Your "therefore" doesn't follow from your "furthermore".
If god is forced to love goodness and hate evil why would
that mean he would want to create beings that could be evil?
Why would he create something that, by his very nature, he hates?
Why wouldn't he make creatures in his own image, as incapable
of making evil choices as he is?

In Judiasm there is a concept of a 'scapegoat' - figuratively
representing one who is innocent bearing the penalty of a sinner.

My problem is I find the scapegoat concept morally repugnant.
The idea that it is ok to punish an innocent to make up for the
wrongs of the guilty is just wrong. Either punish the guilty or
forgive them, there is no excuse for punishing the innocent.

This is one of the reasons I reject Christianity. The entire
religion is biased on the idea that it is morally acceptable
to punish the innocent for the wrongs of others. To me it
does not matter if the innocent volunteered, the entire
concept is morally wrong. The Christian god demands his
pound of flesh and doesn't care who it gets it from. He
would rather kill his own son then just forgive. That is
not a creature I find worthy of worship. Trying to
pass this off as some kind of "spiritual law" is just *****.

As I stated earlier, the New Testament teachest that Jesus was God,
manifest in the flesh.

It matters little. You still have a god that demands
*someone* be punished and is incapable of forgiveness
without punishment.

You also forget, or perhaps you never knew, that God sees us as
'children' - parents often suffer the consequences for the actions of
their children - because the children are not wise enough in certain
situaions to determine right from wrong, and the parents are deemed
responsible.

Consider that some Jesus last words on the cross were 'Father, forgive
them for they know not what they do".

Parents being responsible for their children is an entirely
different concept than the scapegoat concept. A scapegoat'
is an innocent third party taking the punishment so the guilty
does not have to. Parental responsibility has more to do with
the concept that parents are responsible to bring up their
children in such a way that they will make correct choices.
Therefore parents are at least partially responsible for
the bad choices that their children make. There is a world
of difference between someone who has failed in their
responsibility and an innocent third party.
So which concept does your religion teach? Is Jesus a
innocent scapegoat for humanity or is he a father that
is taking responsibility for his bad parenting? He can't
be both.

Whether or not you think all this is 'morally right' or not, if it is
true, then your opinion about it makes no difference. Things are the way
they are.

It makes a huge difference to the question
"Is god worthy of worship?"
A creature that can not go against it's nature and
is forced to make specific choices can hardly be
worshiped for the choices it makes. That is like
worshiping a clock for telling the time.
If god can make moral choices, and I find his
choices morally repugnant then he certainly
does not deserve my worship.

peace

As an aside, I am interested to know what you think
of the scapegoat concept. Do you see nothing wrong
with punishing an innocent in place of the guilty?

mugz

Christianity applies this concept to all of mankind through Jesus -
ie while it is perhaps possible for one innocent man to take the
place of one who is guilty, it took God Himself to pay the penalty
for all of mankind; That God loved mankind so much, inspite of
mankinds faulures and sinfulness, that He Himself was willing to pay
the price for our redemption, is the basic message of Christianity.

If you have more questions, I suggest you meet with few pastors of
local churches.

mugz

Welcome To What Jews Believe
http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/

User: "mugz"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	09 Apr 2004 10:35:09 AM

(JackNunn) wrote in
news:4a542dc.0404090601.560117cc@posting.google.com:

mugz <mckenzie839@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<Xns94C5C300F2DC5mckenzie839hotmailco@216.196.105.130>...

(JackNunn) wrote in
news:4a542dc.0404081219.694e2bff@posting.google.com:

mugz <mckenzie839@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<Xns94C4C04AA7AF1mckenzie839hotmailco@216.196.105.130>...

hunter77099@yahoo.com (Truth Hunter) wrote in
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com:

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

not according to my dictionary:
amoral
adj : without moral standards or principles; "a completely amoral
person" [syn: unmoral] [ant: moral, immoral]
On the contrary, according to the Bible, God IS 'Holy' - ie 'Moral
Perfection' and there is nothing 'amoral' about Him. (I wonder if you are
pretending to be stupid.)

Futhermore, according to the Bible, it is Gods nature love and reward
goodness and righteousness and to hate and punish evil and wickedness
- eternally. It is therefore fitting with His nature to create beings
capable of making the choice and to provide a means by which they can
freely do so.

My prior statement was specific to the nature of God according to the
Bible. and my 'furthermore' expands on that nature as described in the
Bible - again, I wonder if you are just pretending to be stupid.

In Judiasm there is a concept of a 'scapegoat' - figuratively
representing one who is innocent bearing the penalty of a sinner.

My problem is I find the scapegoat concept morally repugnant.
The idea that it is ok to punish an innocent to make up for the
wrongs of the guilty is just wrong. Either punish the guilty or
forgive them, there is no excuse for punishing the innocent.

This is one of the reasons I reject Christianity. The entire
religion is biased on the idea that it is morally acceptable
to punish the innocent for the wrongs of others. To me it
does not matter if the innocent volunteered, the entire
concept is morally wrong. The Christian god demands his
pound of flesh and doesn't care who it gets it from. He
would rather kill his own son then just forgive. That is
not a creature I find worthy of worship. Trying to
pass this off as some kind of "spiritual law" is just *****.

As I stated earlier, the New Testament teachest that Jesus was God,
manifest in the flesh.

It matters little. You still have a god that demands
*someone* be punished and is incapable of forgiveness
without punishment.

It is often difficult to explain spiritual concepts to individuals who
have no concept of spirituality. Jesus used parables - here is one I
heard that may help to shed some light:
There was a girl who had been caught in the act of stealing. The evidnece
proved she had been stealing for a long time.
During the course of her trial she was forced to look at the hardhips her
actions had caused to her victims. She became genuinly remorseful of her
actions - ie she had a true change of heart.
When she was brought before the court and found guilty. The penalty was
to pay restitution to her victim or go to prison. She had no money to
pay.
After pronouncing judgment, the judge took off his robes and came down
from the bench and gave the girl the money to pay the restitution.
You see - the judge was the girls father. He could not be a righteous
judge and just say 'you are forgiven' when the law demanded a price be
paid. But, because he loved her, and because he knew she was genuinly
remorseful, he was willing to pay the price for her freedom himself.

Being a good parent also means allowing children to make mistakes and
learn from them.

So which concept does your religion teach? Is Jesus a
innocent scapegoat for humanity or is he a father that
is taking responsibility for his bad parenting? He can't
be both.

I would say yes to the former and no to the latter, since allowing
children to make mistakes and learn from them does not fall into the
category of bad parenting IMHO. According to the New Testament, Jesus was
both, God and man, an early Christian apologist perhaps put it best:
St. Ignatius (Disciple of John, died 108 AD) to the Ephesians: There is
one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and
not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and
of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.

Whether or not you think all this is 'morally right' or not, if it is
true, then your opinion about it makes no difference. Things are the
way they are.

It makes a huge difference to the question
"Is god worthy of worship?"

A creature that can not go against it's nature and
is forced to make specific choices can hardly be
worshiped for the choices it makes. That is like
worshiping a clock for telling the time.

If god can make moral choices, and I find his
choices morally repugnant then he certainly
does not deserve my worship.

Pure 'Moral Perfection' is in fact the only thing I consider to be worthy
of my worship and adoration.

peace

As an aside, I am interested to know what you think
of the scapegoat concept. Do you see nothing wrong
with punishing an innocent in place of the guilty?

I see nothing wrong with God Himself choosing to pay the penatly for the
sin of all mankind. As Jesus said: "No greather love has a man than this.
to lay down his life for his friends."

mugz

Christianity applies this concept to all of mankind through Jesus
- ie while it is perhaps possible for one innocent man to take the
place of one who is guilty, it took God Himself to pay the penalty
for all of mankind; That God loved mankind so much, inspite of
mankinds faulures and sinfulness, that He Himself was willing to
pay the price for our redemption, is the basic message of
Christianity.

If you have more questions, I suggest you meet with few pastors of
local churches.

mugz

Welcome To What Jews Believe
http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/

User: "JackNunn"
Title: Re: What is admirable about a God demanding his son must be kill ?	12 Apr 2004 10:39:11 AM

I'm back from the weekend with more questions.
I hope you are still around and willing to
answer.
mugz <mckenzie839@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xns94C6573C0F09Emckenzie839hotmailco@216.196.105.130>...

joat_mon@hotmail.com (JackNunn) wrote in
news:4a542dc.0404090601.560117cc@posting.google.com:

mugz <mckenzie839@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<Xns94C5C300F2DC5mckenzie839hotmailco@216.196.105.130>...

joat_mon@hotmail.com (JackNunn) wrote in
news:4a542dc.0404081219.694e2bff@posting.google.com:

mugz <mckenzie839@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<Xns94C4C04AA7AF1mckenzie839hotmailco@216.196.105.130>...

hunter77099@yahoo.com (Truth Hunter) wrote in
news:e164e783.0404071634.5716903d@posting.google.com:

What is admirable about a God demanding such a sacrifice?

not according to my dictionary:

amoral
adj : without moral standards or principles; "a completely amoral
person" [syn: unmoral] [ant: moral, immoral]

On the contrary, according to the Bible, God IS 'Holy' - ie 'Moral
Perfection' and there is nothing 'amoral' about Him. (I wonder if you are
pretending to be stupid.)

By amoral' I mean incapable of making a
moral/immoral choice'. I do not mean evil'
or immoral'. If you have a different word you
prefer to describe this state I will use it.
Perhaps non-moral would be better.
If floating in the air were immoral would humans
be considered moral for walking on the ground?
I would say no. Since humans can not float in
the air their decision' to walk on the ground