V wrote:
From:Al Klein - view profile
Date:Mon, Dec 4 2006 8:35 am
Email: Al Klein ruk...@pern.invalid
On 3 Dec 2006 09:13:42 -0800, "V" <v...@aol.com> wrote:
Enkidu wrote:
And yet you wank on about what atheists believe and don't believe, hide
and don't hide.
Am still trying to learn about it.
You've been told what atheism is - lack of theism. There's no more to
learn.
3) Read more carefully. A "strong" atheist is one who has examined
the evidence and is willing to state that it all points to the
fact that no god or supernatural relm exists (or, perhaps that
no supernatural relm *can* exist). A "weak" atheist is one who
is unconvinced by the evidence in favor of the supernatural, and
does not believe it exists. He discounts god for the same reason
he discounts the tooth fairy. There is simply no support for
the idea.
Would you say the weak atheists is one that does not know the
background material and shoots from the hip and the strong one has
spent time to study the claims?
Both have studied the claims. The weak atheist is unwilling to make
claims about the existence of any god.
V: sounds like the weak atheists is an agnostic from your
description.
Similar to what some of the alt members
do here. They trash my posts without reading them or just read the
first few lines?
Sometimes only 1 line is needed. A post that starts by stating that
atheism claims that no god exists isn't worth pursuing further, since
it's wrong.
V: If it is wrong then you must state what is right or how can wrong
ideas be turned right? I argue with no one. If I have the truth, I keep
it and use it and share it. If you do not want it that is OK, I make no
demands you adopt it. If I am wrong and you have the truth I adopt it
readily and now I have the truth as well.
That is the beauty of being a freethinker.
I'll try again. Freethinker: a person who has rejected authority and
dogma (especially in religious thinking) in favor of rational inquiry
and intellectual speculation.
You are not a "freethinker." That is a specific term. In this very post
you spout the dogma of Buddhism. For instance, you talk about the 3
Pillars of Buddhism. That is dogma. "Accepting the liberating wisdom of
impermanence and practicing non-clinging and a lessening of craving and
desires" is dogma. I've met a lot of people. and the ones that have
fewer desires than otheres are not neccessarily any better than the
others, that is spiritual dogma, pure and simple. You are no
freethinker.
We can think for ourselves.
You rely on others to do your thinking for you.
As such, when we get a toolbox we can decide which tools to use for the
job. Some tools are used a lot, other tools are left alone for the time
being, and still others are trashed when we see they are broken and
useless. See my example at the end.
Condemnation prior to investigation?
Condemnation of the basic premise. One can't logically arrive at
valid conclusions from invalid premises, so why read the invalid
conclusions that follow the invalid premise?.
V: I agree, we have to decide what is worth our time. If there is
problem wording on a worthwhile discussion, then restate them in valid
format. We must also remember that all humans are not as logical as
others and make allowances for different thinking patterns and
abilities. A tool that comes from study of compassion for others This
tool stems, from my Buddhist studies we put ourselves in the other
persons shoes to expand our thinking ability.
My main focus of my freethinking Buddhist practice is concentrated on
the 3 pillars of Buddhism that are common to all schools of Buddhist
practice:
1- Practicing mindfulness and meditation to develop peace and self
awareness of our own true nature.
Dogma. Our "own true nature" is a meaningless phrase.
2- Accepting the liberating wisdom of impermanence and practicing
non-clinging and a lessening of craving and desires.
Loaded dogma.
3- The development of compassion for others.
Dogma. A good idea, but in this context, it's dogma. You can say the
same think in a non-spiritual context, there is no need to claim
exclusivity.
Buddhists are not required to believe or not believe in God, so anyone
can make use of this philosophy irrespective of their religious beliefs
or lack thereof.
Your three pillars are step by step instructions on how to become a
pompous *****. Even the "development of compassion" pillar will do that
if you knee-jerk approach everyone like that (and I've seen it, and you
remind me of those people a lot). Most people want to be treated as
equals unless notified otherwise. You treat people as if they are
ignorant and in desparate need of your wisdom. Frankly, I see about as
much wisdom coming from you as I see from the Christian
fundamentalists, and about as much awareness of others.
What is "spirit"? Without knowing what you mean by the word, one can't
know what you mean. What do you mean by "agnostic"? In philisopical
discussions, it means that you believe the nature of something is
unknowable. It does not mean that you aren't sure.
No, I just don't know and have not found anyone that has the answer
that has convinced me.
Why study something for which you not only have no evidence, but not
even a definition?
V: I am not a dictionary, you will have to study this on your own.
I will only say that the evidence is that of the claims that have been
made
Sincere testimonials are not evidence.
and if we see some worthiness in that study of the claims as in
the bible for instance.
I see no evidence for spirit coming from the Bible, either.
Some of us find it worthy to hit small balls
into holes in the grass. Others find it worthy to shop on ebay. Among
many other ways of spending my time, I study such topics as are
addressed in the links I provided it is all a matter of what we wish to
Dow with our life.
Your preference for studying spiritualism is in no way superior to
hitting small balls into holes in the grass, which you seem to be
suggesting. I don't think it's inferior, either. I think it's more of a
waste of time, since I think you are tilting at windmills. There is no
evidence for the metaphysical spirit, but I can go buy a golf ball at
the store across the street.
see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit
I did, it's nothing new to me, nor is it new to any of the other
atheists, I suspect. You seem to think we all just fell off the turnip
truck. We are aware of spirit, we are aware of spirituality, we have
seen the same claims you make thousands of times. We have just decided
that studying these things any further is a waste of time, since it is
evident that they are just spurious claims.
Atheist or not, there are many unseen and supernatural mysteries in the world.
Are there? You ask for examples, so post some. Not claims, actual
examples of things happening. What we call objective evidence. That's
where the study starts. If there's no evidence, it's not a study,
it's an attempt to verify a belief.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Christianity has already had the chance to govern
the world according to its own ethical standards.
It was called the "Dark Ages".
- Bill, The Avender
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
V: Yes ther are.There are many facets of spiritual studies.
Facets of spiritual studies are totally different than evidence for
spirit. He was asking for actual examples of (spiritual) things
happening, with objective evidence that they did. You just changed the
subject instead of answering.
Some more belief based than others. Again raed the links above. If you are
spiritualist yourself, then you will study such topics. If not, then
you will dismiss spiritual studies en toto because 'your intellect' is
your own god and precludes you from such thought
And here you go with another arrogant statement again. I predict you'll
get raked through the coals again for this, and once again you'll post
another smug thread about how angry atheists are, and how we need your
wise guidance. You seem to enjoy playing the role of the martyr, which
to me is part of what looks like a Messianic Complex on your part. You
want us to bow down to your spiritual wisdom. and when we don't you act
all persecuted. You want to be Jesus, or Buddha, and we aren't buying
it.
If we look at logical and philosophical arguments for God they add up
to zero as each one of these arguments can be argued for or against God
Ontological Argument +
Ontological Argument (--)
Cosmological Argument +
Cosmological Argument (--)
Teleological Argument +
Teleological Argument (--)
-----------------------------------------
Total = ZERO
I think instead of positive or negative you might want to apply "true"
or "false" to those arguments.
I combine practical application as well as logic to my analysis and can
get around this stalemate.
It's not a stalemate. There is no objective evidence whatsoever in
favour of the metaphorical spirit, the supernatural, or god.
I use logic in conjunction with practical
application of spiritual dogma, but I have to study the claims in order
to apply balanced analysis.
Aren't you an inspiriation to the rest of us. And here we are wallowing
in the mud, applying logic to the same claims and reaching different
conclusions. We are to be pitied.
see my post:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=318.0
This area of practical application is lacking with most eyeshots since
they are skewed in one direction, just as theists are skewed as well.
An authentic freethinker is not so skewed.
An example?
From an earlier post to alt.ath.
"Still, I am not shy about benefiting from any religious path that
offers tools for me to live at peace. I take from ALL spiritual paths
without prejudice, my only requirement is that the religious or
spiritual tool be one that offers peace. Any tool always has to pass
the peace test, this way it speaks of a 'higher authority' than just
man made dogma - it speaks of universal truth. But, this all has to be
done in balance. For there are many true things that are good - but
done in excess they become bad. For, even though air and water give us
life, they will also give us death when in excess. So always seek
balance. For instance, the Muslims have a practice of praying five
times a day to Allah. For those that do not know, Allah is the same God
of the Jews and of the Old Testament that the Christians worship.
The Muslims pray at sun up, when the sun is at its zenith at noon, when
the sun is part way down in the afternoon, when the sun sets and when
they go to bed. Even though I am not a Muslim, I borrowed from the
Muslim's prayer schedule to use as a reminder to be mindful of
"gratitude" in my life. If you do not want to develop a practice of
gratitude, then what about using it as a reminder 5 times a day to
relax your breath, practice mindfulness and bring your thoughts back to
the present moment? When you have come to a point of gratitude for
being able to open your eyes in the morning and being able to take a
breath of air everything else is just gravy so to speak. Gratitude
plays an important part with finding inner peace, just as being mindful
of the present moment and being aware of anything that causes this
mindfulness to wander."
It is condescending, presumptuous, and arrogant to assume others don't
appreciate being alive.
Also see my earlier post to Michael Gray on Cultivating the Garden of
our Mind. It is based in spiritual studies of the unseen.
Take care,
V
.
