| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Candy Aisle" |
| Date: |
29 Jan 2005 12:28:54 AM |
| Object: |
What is the point? |
Hello Everyone,
I began reading this message board a while ago. I am mostly impressed with
the banter, the obvious thought that goes into the responses and the genial
tone. I have one question to all fellow atheists...what is the point
arguing with people about god not existing? I find it frustrating that the
majority of the people in our society believe in this pagan sun god, but
really, you can't argue with someone that had been inculcated with a
particular belief their entire life. People don't change their minds even
given overwhelming evidence (I say this in general, please don't scream
"What evidence?").
The whole of educated society believed at one time that the earth was flat.
Thankfully there was a way to definitively prove that to be false.
Unfortunately there is no way to prove god doesn't exist. That necessarily
leaves the believers to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there is a god.
One would assume that given the importance to this Jesus guy, there would be
some proof he lived somewhere, at sometime. He never wrote anything down?
Never owned a pair of sandals? Beyond all the wonderful poetry and verse
dedicated to the almighty, what evidence is there that god or Jesus existed?
None and christians know it.
There is a benefit to believing in an almighty. The feeling one gets when
he imaginarily feels protected and supported by a higher power, especially
in times of trouble. The 'benefit' of comfort in this is similar to that
gained by a child's belief in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. This
'benefit' is not to be minimized and I think that children and weak minded
people need something to believe in. I merely propose that we atheists
treat these brainwashed people in our life much like we would someone with
an unusual mental handicap, a certain amount of compassion that recognizes
they are not to blame, that they never had the chance to develop their own
sense of importance and responsibility, being taught to eschew this to their
higher power, and ultimately not taking the responsibility for their own
lives. Their belief of this silly ritual or that is inconsequential in our
lives, but I would ask all you christians reading this to examine the cult
which you prescribe to be the "truth". Answer to your own satisfaction how
the contradictions within your good book are possible if derived from a
perfect being, come to grips with the fact that the various versions of the
bible you are currently in possession of are in fact sanitized versions of
what most people today would find racist, sexist, immoral, hypocritical and
perverse.
I thank you for your time and ask that all fellow atheists stop wasting
their time preaching to the unconvertable chistian fundamentalists who troll
these sites waiting to attack anyone "damed to hell" (according to their own
scripture, god will be the judge so in less they are presupposing gods will
or are specially empowered to judge us, they are just proselytizing their
understanding of 'knowledge' to impress each other). Live your lives to
their fullest and help make society a better place to live in now, because
there is no second chance.
Jason
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| User: "navi-gater" |
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| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 02:11:58 AM |
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"Candy Aisle" <asd@telus.net> wrote in
news:aNAKd.164632$KO5.19633@clgrps13:
Hello Everyone,
I began reading this message board a while ago. I am mostly impressed
with the banter, the obvious thought that goes into the responses and
the genial tone. I have one question to all fellow atheists...what is
the point arguing with people about god not existing? I find it
frustrating that the majority of the people in our society believe in
this pagan sun god, but really, you can't argue with someone that had
been inculcated with a particular belief their entire life. People
don't change their minds even given overwhelming evidence (I say this
in general, please don't scream "What evidence?").
The whole of educated society believed at one time that the earth was
flat. Thankfully there was a way to definitively prove that to be
false. Unfortunately there is no way to prove god doesn't exist.
Which god do you mean?
Not only is there no evidence for the existence of (for example) the
christian/jewish/muslim god, but in fact there is clear logical, moral and
scientific evidence of the non-existence of that god.
gater.
.
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| User: "RobH" |
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| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 01:01:10 AM |
|
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"Candy Aisle" <asd@telus.net> wrote in
news:aNAKd.164632$KO5.19633@clgrps13:
Hello Everyone,
I began reading this message board a while ago. I am mostly impressed
with the banter, the obvious thought that goes into the responses and
the genial tone. I have one question to all fellow atheists...what is
the point arguing with people about god not existing? I find it
frustrating that the majority of the people in our society believe in
this pagan sun god, but really, you can't argue with someone that had
been inculcated with a particular belief their entire life. People
don't change their minds even given overwhelming evidence (I say this
in general, please don't scream "What evidence?").
The whole of educated society believed at one time that the earth was
flat. Thankfully there was a way to definitively prove that to be
false. Unfortunately there is no way to prove god doesn't exist.
That necessarily leaves the believers to prove beyond a reasonable
doubt that there is a god. One would assume that given the importance
to this Jesus guy, there would be some proof he lived somewhere, at
sometime. He never wrote anything down? Never owned a pair of
sandals? Beyond all the wonderful poetry and verse dedicated to the
almighty, what evidence is there that god or Jesus existed? None and
christians know it.
Just one point. There is plenty of evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was a
living human being that lived around 2000 years ago. Just no evidence
that he was anything more than a human being.
.
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 06:52:51 AM |
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"RobH" <Rob@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95ECC17BB3D2ERobH@24.93.44.119...
"Candy Aisle" <asd@telus.net> wrote in
news:aNAKd.164632$KO5.19633@clgrps13:
Hello Everyone,
I began reading this message board a while ago. I am mostly impressed
with the banter, the obvious thought that goes into the responses and
the genial tone. I have one question to all fellow atheists...what is
the point arguing with people about god not existing? I find it
frustrating that the majority of the people in our society believe in
this pagan sun god, but really, you can't argue with someone that had
been inculcated with a particular belief their entire life. People
don't change their minds even given overwhelming evidence (I say this
in general, please don't scream "What evidence?").
The whole of educated society believed at one time that the earth was
flat. Thankfully there was a way to definitively prove that to be
false. Unfortunately there is no way to prove god doesn't exist.
That necessarily leaves the believers to prove beyond a reasonable
doubt that there is a god. One would assume that given the importance
to this Jesus guy, there would be some proof he lived somewhere, at
sometime. He never wrote anything down? Never owned a pair of
sandals? Beyond all the wonderful poetry and verse dedicated to the
almighty, what evidence is there that god or Jesus existed? None and
christians know it.
Just one point. There is plenty of evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was a
living human being that lived around 2000 years ago. Just no evidence
that he was anything more than a human being.
Please present this 'evidence'. Hopefully, it won't be the interpolations
in Josephus.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 07:49:34 AM |
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 01:52:51 -0500, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> said in alt.atheism:
"RobH" <Rob@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95ECC17BB3D2ERobH@24.93.44.119...
Just one point. There is plenty of evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was a
living human being that lived around 2000 years ago. Just no evidence
that he was anything more than a human being.
Please present this 'evidence'. Hopefully, it won't be the interpolations
in Josephus.
Which wouldn't be contemporaneous anyway.
--
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
- H. L. Mencken
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 07:48:53 AM |
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 01:01:10 GMT, RobH <Rob@aol.com> said in
alt.atheism:
Just one point. There is plenty of evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was a
living human being that lived around 2000 years ago. Just no evidence
that he was anything more than a human being.
1) No ancient historian or geographer mentions Nazareth. It is first
noted at the beginning of the 4th century. There are no 1st century
ruins at Nazareth, as there are at other cities that existed in the
1st century - like Sepphoris.
2) The original phrase was "Yeshua the Nazarene" ("Jesous o
Nazoraios"). There's no reference to Nazareth in the OT.
('Nazarite', as in Judges 13:5, means "he who vows to grow long hair
and serve god". It has nothing to do with Nazareth.) "Matthew" is
about the earliest source of "Nazarene", dishonestly replacing one
word with another similar one to give a 'home' to the hero of his
saga.
3) That there was someone in Palestine 2,000 years ago named Yeshua is
about as certain that there was someone in Los Angeles in 1999 named
Joe.
4) That there was an itinerant Jewish preacher in Palestine 2,000
years ago named Yeshua is almost as certain. (The place was rife with
itinerant preachers.)
5) There's absolutely NO contemporaneous written reference to the
biblical Jesus that we know of.
Evidence of a "Yeshua of Nazareth" from the first century? Not
"plenty". Not even a single word.
--
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
- Isaac Asimov
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 03:26:45 AM |
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 01:01:10 GMT, RobH <Rob@aol.com> wrote:
"Candy Aisle" <asd@telus.net> wrote in
news:aNAKd.164632$KO5.19633@clgrps13:
Hello Everyone,
I began reading this message board a while ago. I am mostly impressed
with the banter, the obvious thought that goes into the responses and
the genial tone. I have one question to all fellow atheists...what is
the point arguing with people about god not existing? I find it
frustrating that the majority of the people in our society believe in
this pagan sun god, but really, you can't argue with someone that had
been inculcated with a particular belief their entire life. People
don't change their minds even given overwhelming evidence (I say this
in general, please don't scream "What evidence?").
The whole of educated society believed at one time that the earth was
flat. Thankfully there was a way to definitively prove that to be
false. Unfortunately there is no way to prove god doesn't exist.
That necessarily leaves the believers to prove beyond a reasonable
doubt that there is a god. One would assume that given the importance
to this Jesus guy, there would be some proof he lived somewhere, at
sometime. He never wrote anything down? Never owned a pair of
sandals? Beyond all the wonderful poetry and verse dedicated to the
almighty, what evidence is there that god or Jesus existed? None and
christians know it.
Just one point. There is plenty of evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was a
living human being that lived around 2000 years ago. Just no evidence
that he was anything more than a human being.
Nazareth didn't even exist 2000 years ago.
.
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| User: "Mushinronsha" |
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| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 02:19:28 AM |
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RobH wrote:
"Candy Aisle" <asd@telus.net> wrote in
news:aNAKd.164632$KO5.19633@clgrps13:
Hello Everyone,
I began reading this message board a while ago. I am mostly impressed
with the banter, the obvious thought that goes into the responses and
the genial tone. I have one question to all fellow atheists...what is
the point arguing with people about god not existing? I find it
frustrating that the majority of the people in our society believe in
this pagan sun god, but really, you can't argue with someone that had
been inculcated with a particular belief their entire life. People
don't change their minds even given overwhelming evidence (I say this
in general, please don't scream "What evidence?").
The whole of educated society believed at one time that the earth was
flat. Thankfully there was a way to definitively prove that to be
false. Unfortunately there is no way to prove god doesn't exist.
That necessarily leaves the believers to prove beyond a reasonable
doubt that there is a god. One would assume that given the importance
to this Jesus guy, there would be some proof he lived somewhere, at
sometime. He never wrote anything down? Never owned a pair of
sandals? Beyond all the wonderful poetry and verse dedicated to the
almighty, what evidence is there that god or Jesus existed? None and
christians know it.
Just one point. There is plenty of evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was a
living human being that lived around 2000 years ago.
Really? What evidence?
Mushy
Just no evidence
that he was anything more than a human being.
.
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| User: "RobH" |
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| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 02:29:57 AM |
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Mushinronsha <mushinronsha_no_spam@bigmailbox.com> wrote in
news:S8Cdnc6qGvdXb2fcRVn-iA@comcast.com:
RobH wrote:
"Candy Aisle" <asd@telus.net> wrote in
news:aNAKd.164632$KO5.19633@clgrps13:
Hello Everyone,
I began reading this message board a while ago. I am mostly
impressed with the banter, the obvious thought that goes into the
responses and the genial tone. I have one question to all fellow
atheists...what is the point arguing with people about god not
existing? I find it frustrating that the majority of the people in
our society believe in this pagan sun god, but really, you can't
argue with someone that had been inculcated with a particular belief
their entire life. People don't change their minds even given
overwhelming evidence (I say this in general, please don't scream
"What evidence?").
The whole of educated society believed at one time that the earth was
flat. Thankfully there was a way to definitively prove that to be
false. Unfortunately there is no way to prove god doesn't exist.
That necessarily leaves the believers to prove beyond a reasonable
doubt that there is a god. One would assume that given the importance
to this Jesus guy, there would be some proof he lived somewhere, at
sometime. He never wrote anything down? Never owned a pair of
sandals? Beyond all the wonderful poetry and verse dedicated to the
almighty, what evidence is there that god or Jesus existed? None and
christians know it.
Just one point. There is plenty of evidence that Jesus of Nazareth
was a living human being that lived around 2000 years ago.
Really? What evidence?
Mushy
Just no evidence
that he was anything more than a human being.
It is pointless of me to copy and paste all the information about Jesus
of Nazareth. If you don't want to believe any of the information, you
won't, that's fine. I accept that. You can browse the internet all night
and make your own conclusions. I have no interest in proving anything. I
could care less.
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 02:57:15 AM |
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 02:29:57 GMT in alt.atheism, RobH (RobH
<Rob@aol.com>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
[snip]
It is pointless of me to copy and paste all the information about Jesus
of Nazareth.
I don't think you need to copy & paste *all* the information about
Jesus, but a contemporaneous reference to his existence would be nice.
Not to mention unique.
If you don't want to believe any of the information, you
won't, that's fine. I accept that. You can browse the internet all night
and make your own conclusions. I have no interest in proving anything. I
could care less.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 07:49:02 AM |
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 02:57:15 +0000, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> said in alt.atheism:
I don't think you need to copy & paste *all* the information about
Jesus, but a contemporaneous reference to his existence would be nice.
Not to mention unique.
Don't hold your breath, Therion.
--
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he
unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."
-- Bertrand Russell.
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 12:17:35 PM |
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 02:57:15 +0000, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 02:29:57 GMT in alt.atheism, RobH (RobH
<Rob@aol.com>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
[snip]
It is pointless of me to copy and paste all the information about Jesus
of Nazareth.
I don't think you need to copy & paste *all* the information about
Jesus, but a contemporaneous reference to his existence would be nice.
Not to mention unique.
Well, you could start with the Bible. Whilst I agree it is a very
dubious document and should be taken with a pillar of salt it is
nevertheless evidence of a sort. Whilst there is probably a lot
of after the event invention they cannot surely have made up the
whole story? I think they did start with a historic Jesus but not
necessarily the character they write about. Although I have not
looked at the other evidence I understand there are vague
references elsewhere but very little
Absense of evidence can almost be as valuable as evidence.
AFAIK there are nocontemporary records of the Bible's supposed
story of the end of the life of Jesus which is depicted as a
momentus event. That is odd. No records from Pilate, no
temple records, no eyewitness acounts, nothing. It is almost
as if it did not happen. Where are all the births and deaths
records? Joseph, like everybody else were supposed to return
to the place of their birth for the census. How did the authorities
know everybodys place of birth? This indicates they had
records of births and deaths to check againt the names. Did
they really have that degree of bureacracy in those days, if
so where are these records now? If they didn't why would anybody
bother returning to their places of birth if nobody was able to
check anyway? That makes the story of the journey to Bethlehem
and the full accomodation there very dubious indeed.
If you don't want to believe any of the information, you
won't, that's fine. I accept that. You can browse the internet all night
and make your own conclusions. I have no interest in proving anything. I
could care less.
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 02:36:38 PM |
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:17:35 +0000 in alt.atheism, Les Hellawell (Les
Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com>) said, directing the reply
to alt.atheism
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 02:57:15 +0000, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 02:29:57 GMT in alt.atheism, RobH (RobH
<Rob@aol.com>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
[snip]
It is pointless of me to copy and paste all the information about Jesus
of Nazareth.
I don't think you need to copy & paste *all* the information about
Jesus, but a contemporaneous reference to his existence would be nice.
Not to mention unique.
Well, you could start with the Bible. Whilst I agree it is a very
dubious document and should be taken with a pillar of salt it is
nevertheless evidence of a sort. Whilst there is probably a lot
of after the event invention they cannot surely have made up the
whole story? I think they did start with a historic Jesus but not
necessarily the character they write about. Although I have not
looked at the other evidence I understand there are vague
references elsewhere but very little
Actually, I tend to agree, mostly because a historical basis for Jesus
is to my mind the simplest explanation, and of course a historical
Jesus is not a historical Christ. There are after all occasional
examples in historical time where mere mortals have been transfigured
in the popular imagination in to virtual gods, albeit mostly evil one.
But that said, as you say below:
Absense of evidence can almost be as valuable as evidence.
AFAIK there are nocontemporary records of the Bible's supposed
story of the end of the life of Jesus which is depicted as a
momentus event.
Certainly. One would have thought that some of the wilder claims - the
darkness, the resurrection of the prophets, the witness of the 500,
and so on would have merited a passing note by someone that might have
survived into our time.
That is odd. No records from Pilate,
Well yes, but did the Romans keep such records? After all Judea was a
province of simmering rebellion. One imagines the Romans were
executing "terrorists" right, left and centre, and one further
imagines that at the time Jesus would hardly have been regarded as an
exceptional case by Pilate.
As a matter of interest, does anyone know if there are any Roman
judicial records from a broadly contemporaneous period recording the
trial and execution of minor criminals?
no
temple records, no eyewitness acounts, nothing. It is almost
as if it did not happen.
"Oddly enough".
Where are all the births and deaths
records? Joseph, like everybody else were supposed to return
to the place of their birth for the census. How did the authorities
know everybodys place of birth? This indicates they had
records of births and deaths to check againt the names. Did
they really have that degree of bureacracy in those days, if
so where are these records now? If they didn't why would anybody
bother returning to their places of birth if nobody was able to
check anyway? That makes the story of the journey to Bethlehem
and the full accomodation there very dubious indeed.
Quite so.
Which indirectly reminds me of one of my major problems with a lot of
what we see on this subject: the implicit assumption that ancient
historians used the same methodologies as modern historians and that
were in some sense an analogue of disinterested academic historians.
Which is, IMNVHO, is complete and total bollocks with no redeeming
features whatsoever.
<do rant>
I mean look at Josephus, for example! Here we have a man who decided
not to suicide with his fellow rebels (he was last man standing as it
were, and decided not to suicide having killed the only other one left
at his own request), worked himself into the favour of the "is to be"
Roman Emperor, married into the top end of Roman society, wrote books
that stressed and promoted the *rationality* of Judaism by minimising
the supernatural elements of the Judaic story, and so on, and so on.
And we're asked by some to believe that this was the man who virtually
acknowledges the divinity of Christ?
Careful textual analysis is all very well, but frankly what Flavius
Josephus is alleged to have written with respect to *Christ* is about
as likely as finding a monograph by Stalin on the virtues of
capitalism or a paragraph by Heydrich on the socially redeeming aspect
of the Jews.
Possible, I suppose. But not very likely.
</end rant>
</for now>
[snip]
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 06:45:00 PM |
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:17:35 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> said in alt.atheism:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 02:57:15 +0000, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
I don't think you need to copy & paste *all* the information about
Jesus, but a contemporaneous reference to his existence would be nice.
Not to mention unique.
Well, you could start with the Bible.
Not even close to being contemporaneous. The earliest scrap of
manuscript of the NT that we know of dates to ~125 AD. And it's not
even one sentence.
--
"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want
you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good...Our
goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by
God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want
pluralism."
-Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue, The News-Sentinel, Fort
Wayne, Indiana, 8-16-93
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
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| User: "Mushinronsha" |
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| Title: Re: What is the point? |
30 Jan 2005 03:19:11 AM |
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Just one point. There is plenty of evidence that Jesus of Nazareth
was a living human being that lived around 2000 years ago.
Really? What evidence?
Mushy
Just no evidence
that he was anything more than a human being.
It is pointless of me to copy and paste all the information about Jesus
of Nazareth. If you don't want to believe any of the information, you
won't, that's fine. I accept that. You can browse the internet all night
and make your own conclusions. I have no interest in proving anything. I
could care less.
I don't believe you. I think you and your christian brethren made all the
jesusatopia stuff up. I think you stole elements of pre-existing religions and
cobbled together a fantasy.
You said "There is plenty of evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was a living human
being that lived around 2000 years ago". I don't believe you. I don't accept
your claim that there is plenty of evidence. I simply asked you what evidence
there was. You haven't provided any.
Again, I ask you... What evidence?
Mushy
.
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| User: "RobH" |
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| Title: Re: What is the point? |
30 Jan 2005 03:41:49 AM |
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Mushinronsha <mushinronsha_no_spam@bigmailbox.com> wrote in
news:0e6dnTL0bYjFz2HcRVn-hA@comcast.com:
Just one point. There is plenty of evidence that Jesus of Nazareth
was a living human being that lived around 2000 years ago.
Really? What evidence?
Mushy
Just no evidence
that he was anything more than a human being.
It is pointless of me to copy and paste all the information about
Jesus of Nazareth. If you don't want to believe any of the
information, you won't, that's fine. I accept that. You can browse
the internet all night and make your own conclusions. I have no
interest in proving anything. I could care less.
I don't believe you. I think you and your christian brethren made all
the jesusatopia stuff up. I think you stole elements of pre-existing
religions and cobbled together a fantasy.
You said "There is plenty of evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was a
living human being that lived around 2000 years ago". I don't believe
you. I don't accept your claim that there is plenty of evidence. I
simply asked you what evidence there was. You haven't provided any.
Again, I ask you... What evidence?
Mushy
Darn you exposed my secret christian takeover plan.
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 04:32:48 AM |
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"Candy Aisle" <asd@telus.net> wrote in message
news:aNAKd.164632$KO5.19633@clgrps13...
Hello Everyone,
I began reading this message board a while ago. I am mostly impressed
with
the banter, the obvious thought that goes into the responses and the
genial
tone. I have one question to all fellow atheists...what is the point
arguing with people about god not existing?
Self-expression. Self-assertion. I for one was frustrated for years by not
telling people I was an atheist. Now that I can argue the point, I feel much
better. When I post in this group it relaxes me as few things can. if
someone tells me God exists in one way or another, I'm very happy to tell
them otherwise. In my home town I was a magnet for evangelists. I'd just be
standing on the corner waiting for the bus with a dozen or so other people
and they'd always walk straight up to me and ask me if I was saved. I tried
to be polite, but I was very uncomfortable. If only I had taken a stand
then! I would have ended all the nonsense. Being nice to these fools never
got me anything but sadness and discomfort. Evangelists are the scum of the
earth. preachers are sexual predators. The swine should drop dead, and they
won't get the satisfaction of any more silence from me about my lack of
belief in their stupid crap.
.
|
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|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 08:48:20 AM |
|
|
"Candy Aisle" <asd@telus.net> wrote in message
news:aNAKd.164632$KO5.19633@clgrps13...
Hello Everyone,
I began reading this message board a while ago. I am mostly impressed
with the banter, the obvious thought that goes into the responses and the
genial tone. I have one question to all fellow atheists...what is the
point arguing with people about god not existing?
Well, one part you already answered. Good banter takes practice.
I find it frustrating that the majority of the people in our society
believe in this pagan sun god, but really, you can't argue with someone
that had been inculcated with a particular belief their entire life.
People don't change their minds even given overwhelming evidence (I say
this in general, please don't scream "What evidence?").
The existence of the alt atheism deconversion list says otherwise.
The whole of educated society believed at one time that the earth was
flat. Thankfully there was a way to definitively prove that to be false.
Unfortunately there is no way to prove god doesn't exist.
Not necessarily. If the god is described as providing testable qualities,
then it can be tested.
That necessarily leaves the believers to prove beyond a reasonable doubt
that there is a god.
Well, it is their burden if they want us to agree with them.
One would assume that given the importance to this Jesus guy, there would
be some proof he lived somewhere, at sometime. He never wrote anything
down? Never owned a pair of sandals? Beyond all the wonderful poetry and
verse dedicated to the almighty, what evidence is there that god or Jesus
existed? None and christians know it.
Some do, some don't.
There is a benefit to believing in an almighty. The feeling one gets when
he imaginarily feels protected and supported by a higher power, especially
in times of trouble. The 'benefit' of comfort in this is similar to that
gained by a child's belief in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. This
'benefit' is not to be minimized and I think that children and weak minded
people need something to believe in.
I am of the opinion that people can handle options.
I merely propose that we atheists treat these brainwashed people in our
life much like we would someone with an unusual mental handicap, a certain
amount of compassion that recognizes they are not to blame, that they
never had the chance to develop their own sense of importance and
responsibility, being taught to eschew this to their higher power, and
ultimately not taking the responsibility for their own lives.
Would you happily accept such condecension from those those who deem
themselves superior to you? If not, then why do you think those you deem
inferior to you would feel any different?
Their belief of this silly ritual or that is inconsequential in our lives,
but I would ask all you christians reading this to examine the cult which
you prescribe to be the "truth". Answer to your own satisfaction how the
contradictions within your good book are possible if derived from a
perfect being, come to grips with the fact that the various versions of
the bible you are currently in possession of are in fact sanitized
versions of what most people today would find racist, sexist, immoral,
hypocritical and perverse.
Now you're contradicting your own premise by seeking to eliminate their
belief.
I thank you for your time and ask that all fellow atheists stop wasting
their time preaching to the unconvertable chistian fundamentalists who
troll these sites waiting to attack anyone "damed to hell" (according to
their own scripture, god will be the judge so in less they are
presupposing gods will or are specially empowered to judge us, they are
just proselytizing their understanding of 'knowledge' to impress each
other).
No. I will contest their idiotic beliefs as I wish. I will present my
alternative.
Live your lives to their fullest and help make society a better place to
live in now, because there is no second chance.
That's what I'm trying to do here.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "Les Hellawell" |
|
| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 12:44:52 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 02:48:20 -0600, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>
wrote:
"Candy Aisle" <asd@telus.net> wrote in message
news:aNAKd.164632$KO5.19633@clgrps13...
Hello Everyone,
I began reading this message board a while ago. I am mostly impressed
with the banter, the obvious thought that goes into the responses and the
genial tone. I have one question to all fellow atheists...what is the
point arguing with people about god not existing?
Well, one part you already answered. Good banter takes practice.
I find it frustrating that the majority of the people in our society
believe in this pagan sun god, but really, you can't argue with someone
that had been inculcated with a particular belief their entire life.
People don't change their minds even given overwhelming evidence (I say
this in general, please don't scream "What evidence?").
The existence of the alt atheism deconversion list says otherwise.
The whole of educated society believed at one time that the earth was
flat. Thankfully there was a way to definitively prove that to be false.
Unfortunately there is no way to prove god doesn't exist.
Not necessarily. If the god is described as providing testable qualities,
then it can be tested.
That necessarily leaves the believers to prove beyond a reasonable doubt
that there is a god.
Well, it is their burden if they want us to agree with them.
One would assume that given the importance to this Jesus guy, there would
be some proof he lived somewhere, at sometime. He never wrote anything
down? Never owned a pair of sandals? Beyond all the wonderful poetry and
verse dedicated to the almighty, what evidence is there that god or Jesus
existed? None and christians know it.
Some do, some don't.
There is a benefit to believing in an almighty. The feeling one gets when
he imaginarily feels protected and supported by a higher power, especially
in times of trouble. The 'benefit' of comfort in this is similar to that
gained by a child's belief in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. This
'benefit' is not to be minimized and I think that children and weak minded
people need something to believe in.
I am of the opinion that people can handle options.
I merely propose that we atheists treat these brainwashed people in our
life much like we would someone with an unusual mental handicap, a certain
amount of compassion that recognizes they are not to blame, that they
never had the chance to develop their own sense of importance and
responsibility, being taught to eschew this to their higher power, and
ultimately not taking the responsibility for their own lives.
Would you happily accept such condecension from those those who deem
themselves superior to you? If not, then why do you think those you deem
inferior to you would feel any different?
Their belief of this silly ritual or that is inconsequential in our lives,
but I would ask all you christians reading this to examine the cult which
you prescribe to be the "truth". Answer to your own satisfaction how the
contradictions within your good book are possible if derived from a
perfect being, come to grips with the fact that the various versions of
the bible you are currently in possession of are in fact sanitized
versions of what most people today would find racist, sexist, immoral,
hypocritical and perverse.
Now you're contradicting your own premise by seeking to eliminate their
belief.
I thank you for your time and ask that all fellow atheists stop wasting
their time preaching to the unconvertable chistian fundamentalists who
troll these sites waiting to attack anyone "damed to hell" (according to
their own scripture, god will be the judge so in less they are
presupposing gods will or are specially empowered to judge us, they are
just proselytizing their understanding of 'knowledge' to impress each
other).
No. I will contest their idiotic beliefs as I wish. I will present my
alternative.
Live your lives to their fullest and help make society a better place to
live in now, because there is no second chance.
That's what I'm trying to do here.
Of course when people discuss things in closed groups of like
minded people there is a danger that they reinforce one anothers
prejudices and misunderstandings. The logic and 'truths' that emerge
then becomes internally strong as they convince themselves
they are right. Things can get elevates to constructs that are pure
fanasy as they feed off one another
They then come here convinced that their truth and light is blindingly
obvious. They think we could have no possible way of countering
them and that we will instantly see the light as well.
Boy do they get a shock! All their constructs immediately fall apart,
the absubities are exposed and their cast iron logic turns out to
be candy floss in the wind or childrens pot paints in the rain.
It is a good thing never to stay in a closed group and fall into a
trap like that . It is always good to test your beliefs and
philosophies with those who do not share it so you stay on firm
ground. So in a sense it is good that occasionally
the more sensible believers post here as it enables us to test
our non belief against them. I know I have become even more
convinced that my disbelief in the existence of gods and the utter
rejection of religion is the right thing when the likes of KC post
here. Not only does the stuff he preaches look utter nonesense
but he also shows us just how Christianity can turn people into
nasty spiteful people full of hatred and fear. The unhappiness
these people demonstrate can be quite frightful convincing
me that that particular religion is a bad thing for the world
(some Cjhristian poster are of no consequence of course and
just post nonesense - Duke for example - they are just unwitting
figures of fun who have nothing to say. Diane in here recent series of
post about Christmas finally convinced me to drop the name altogether.
So, yes, Christians can make a positive contribution to our thinking.
Of course we even get Christians posting here pretending to
be atheists thinking that if they cannot convert us in an obvious
way they would try to do it by stealth sowing just a little doubt
here and there in a way we will not see.
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 06:28:20 PM |
|
|
"Les Hellawell" <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:ovvmv0h21l51cicvs0uuu3u39hadgi1v8h@4ax.com...
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 02:48:20 -0600, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>
wrote:
"Candy Aisle" <asd@telus.net> wrote in message
news:aNAKd.164632$KO5.19633@clgrps13...
Hello Everyone,
I began reading this message board a while ago. I am mostly impressed
with the banter, the obvious thought that goes into the responses and
the
genial tone. I have one question to all fellow atheists...what is the
point arguing with people about god not existing?
Well, one part you already answered. Good banter takes practice.
I find it frustrating that the majority of the people in our society
believe in this pagan sun god, but really, you can't argue with someone
that had been inculcated with a particular belief their entire life.
People don't change their minds even given overwhelming evidence (I say
this in general, please don't scream "What evidence?").
The existence of the alt atheism deconversion list says otherwise.
The whole of educated society believed at one time that the earth was
flat. Thankfully there was a way to definitively prove that to be false.
Unfortunately there is no way to prove god doesn't exist.
Not necessarily. If the god is described as providing testable qualities,
then it can be tested.
That necessarily leaves the believers to prove beyond a reasonable doubt
that there is a god.
Well, it is their burden if they want us to agree with them.
One would assume that given the importance to this Jesus guy, there
would
be some proof he lived somewhere, at sometime. He never wrote anything
down? Never owned a pair of sandals? Beyond all the wonderful poetry
and
verse dedicated to the almighty, what evidence is there that god or
Jesus
existed? None and christians know it.
Some do, some don't.
There is a benefit to believing in an almighty. The feeling one gets
when
he imaginarily feels protected and supported by a higher power,
especially
in times of trouble. The 'benefit' of comfort in this is similar to
that
gained by a child's belief in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. This
'benefit' is not to be minimized and I think that children and weak
minded
people need something to believe in.
I am of the opinion that people can handle options.
I merely propose that we atheists treat these brainwashed people in our
life much like we would someone with an unusual mental handicap, a
certain
amount of compassion that recognizes they are not to blame, that they
never had the chance to develop their own sense of importance and
responsibility, being taught to eschew this to their higher power, and
ultimately not taking the responsibility for their own lives.
Would you happily accept such condecension from those those who deem
themselves superior to you? If not, then why do you think those you deem
inferior to you would feel any different?
Their belief of this silly ritual or that is inconsequential in our
lives,
but I would ask all you christians reading this to examine the cult
which
you prescribe to be the "truth". Answer to your own satisfaction how
the
contradictions within your good book are possible if derived from a
perfect being, come to grips with the fact that the various versions of
the bible you are currently in possession of are in fact sanitized
versions of what most people today would find racist, sexist, immoral,
hypocritical and perverse.
Now you're contradicting your own premise by seeking to eliminate their
belief.
I thank you for your time and ask that all fellow atheists stop wasting
their time preaching to the unconvertable chistian fundamentalists who
troll these sites waiting to attack anyone "damed to hell" (according to
their own scripture, god will be the judge so in less they are
presupposing gods will or are specially empowered to judge us, they are
just proselytizing their understanding of 'knowledge' to impress each
other).
No. I will contest their idiotic beliefs as I wish. I will present my
alternative.
Live your lives to their fullest and help make society a better place to
live in now, because there is no second chance.
That's what I'm trying to do here.
Of course when people discuss things in closed groups of like
minded people there is a danger that they reinforce one anothers
prejudices and misunderstandings. The logic and 'truths' that emerge
then becomes internally strong as they convince themselves
they are right. Things can get elevates to constructs that are pure
fanasy as they feed off one another
They then come here convinced that their truth and light is blindingly
obvious. They think we could have no possible way of countering
them and that we will instantly see the light as well.
Boy do they get a shock! All their constructs immediately fall apart,
the absubities are exposed and their cast iron logic turns out to
be candy floss in the wind or childrens pot paints in the rain.
It is a good thing never to stay in a closed group and fall into a
trap like that . It is always good to test your beliefs and
philosophies with those who do not share it so you stay on firm
ground. So in a sense it is good that occasionally
the more sensible believers post here as it enables us to test
our non belief against them. I know I have become even more
convinced that my disbelief in the existence of gods and the utter
rejection of religion is the right thing when the likes of KC post
here. Not only does the stuff he preaches look utter nonesense
but he also shows us just how Christianity can turn people into
nasty spiteful people full of hatred and fear. The unhappiness
these people demonstrate can be quite frightful convincing
me that that particular religion is a bad thing for the world
(some Cjhristian poster are of no consequence of course and
just post nonesense - Duke for example - they are just unwitting
figures of fun who have nothing to say. Diane in here recent series of
post about Christmas finally convinced me to drop the name altogether.
So, yes, Christians can make a positive contribution to our thinking.
Of course we even get Christians posting here pretending to
be atheists thinking that if they cannot convert us in an obvious
way they would try to do it by stealth sowing just a little doubt
here and there in a way we will not see.
In the name of morality, they try every duplicitous tactic.
Excellent post, by the way. :-)
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
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|
| User: "Bill" |
|
| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 07:57:36 PM |
|
|
An excellent post with some merit. There are however legitimate reasons for
trying to reduce the religious fervor in this country.
The Christian religion, under the leadership of Bush and many religious
fanatics are trying to impose their beliefs, life styles and rules on all of
us. Just look at all the blue laws and the war against Islamists in Iraq.
This would be a better Democracy if religion was less dominant.
--
Bill
"Candy Aisle" <asd@telus.net> wrote in message
news:aNAKd.164632$KO5.19633@clgrps13...
Hello Everyone,
I began reading this message board a while ago. I am mostly impressed
with
the banter, the obvious thought that goes into the responses and the
genial
tone. I have one question to all fellow atheists...what is the point
arguing with people about god not existing? I find it frustrating that
the
majority of the people in our society believe in this pagan sun god, but
really, you can't argue with someone that had been inculcated with a
particular belief their entire life. People don't change their minds even
given overwhelming evidence (I say this in general, please don't scream
"What evidence?").
The whole of educated society believed at one time that the earth was
flat.
Thankfully there was a way to definitively prove that to be false.
Unfortunately there is no way to prove god doesn't exist. That
necessarily
leaves the believers to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there is a
god.
One would assume that given the importance to this Jesus guy, there would
be
some proof he lived somewhere, at sometime. He never wrote anything down?
Never owned a pair of sandals? Beyond all the wonderful poetry and verse
dedicated to the almighty, what evidence is there that god or Jesus
existed?
None and christians know it.
There is a benefit to believing in an almighty. The feeling one gets when
he imaginarily feels protected and supported by a higher power, especially
in times of trouble. The 'benefit' of comfort in this is similar to that
gained by a child's belief in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. This
'benefit' is not to be minimized and I think that children and weak minded
people need something to believe in. I merely propose that we atheists
treat these brainwashed people in our life much like we would someone with
an unusual mental handicap, a certain amount of compassion that recognizes
they are not to blame, that they never had the chance to develop their own
sense of importance and responsibility, being taught to eschew this to
their
higher power, and ultimately not taking the responsibility for their own
lives. Their belief of this silly ritual or that is inconsequential in
our
lives, but I would ask all you christians reading this to examine the cult
which you prescribe to be the "truth". Answer to your own satisfaction
how
the contradictions within your good book are possible if derived from a
perfect being, come to grips with the fact that the various versions of
the
bible you are currently in possession of are in fact sanitized versions of
what most people today would find racist, sexist, immoral, hypocritical
and
perverse.
I thank you for your time and ask that all fellow atheists stop wasting
their time preaching to the unconvertable chistian fundamentalists who
troll
these sites waiting to attack anyone "damed to hell" (according to their
own
scripture, god will be the judge so in less they are presupposing gods
will
or are specially empowered to judge us, they are just proselytizing their
understanding of 'knowledge' to impress each other). Live your lives to
their fullest and help make society a better place to live in now, because
there is no second chance.
Jason
.
|
|
|
| User: "ArWeGod" |
|
| Title: Re: What is the point? |
07 Feb 2005 11:51:12 AM |
|
|
"Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:QURKd.39774$8u5.6364@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
This would be a better Democracy if religion was less dominant.
It would be better world.
It would also be better if you were to stop top-posting.
Top posting is Bad.
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
--
ArWeGod
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Eudaemonic Plague" |
|
| Title: Re: What is the point? |
29 Jan 2005 04:05:14 AM |
|
|
Candy Aisle wrote:
Hello Everyone,
I began reading this message board a while ago. I am mostly impressed with
the banter, the obvious thought that goes into the responses and the genial
tone. I have one question to all fellow atheists...what is the point
arguing with people about god not existing? I find it frustrating that the
majority of the people in our society believe in this pagan sun god, but
really, you can't argue with someone that had been inculcated with a
particular belief their entire life. People don't change their minds even
given overwhelming evidence (I say this in general, please don't scream
"What evidence?").
[snip]
I thank you for your time and ask that all fellow atheists stop wasting
their time preaching to the unconvertable chistian fundamentalists who troll
these sites waiting to attack anyone "damed to hell"
[snip]
Live your lives to
their fullest and help make society a better place to live in now, because
there is no second chance.
There is some satisfaction to be had, arguing with those who are stuck
in a rut...personally, I don't spend anywhere near the time I could in
this group. I mean, it does get old, but I keep coming back, probably
because arguing with these types in person can get ugly (lunatics are
best kept at a distance), and I get a kick out of seeing what they will
invent next. Truth is, there are a few (very few) who can be reached.
In RL, I've found that xians who believe atheists to be evil, bad
people, often learn from being around me (and others like me), that we
aren't really (at least not all, to repeat something at least one of
them said to me).
.
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Related Articles |
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