"Uncle Clover" <UncleClover@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:pvvkf2pta425thdc42mvdfks1lrrm34gpa@4ax.com...

Okay, "whig-out" time again - time to talk all crazy and unrealistic and
stuff. ;-) I'm curious as to what the concept of "Utopia" might mean to
some
of you.

My Utopia is a work in progress. It is a city that is a perfect blend
of man and nature. It includes all cultures and technological styles.
It is a
staggering accomplishment, a city like no other. It's a city that is
fully
technological and at the same time fully natural. It is humanity as part
of
nature, not humanity as self-appointed "ruler" of nature. Imagine such a
place.
A city of humans - gajillions and gajillions of them - in which their
every need
can readily be met, and also in and through which the rest of nature may
freely
flow undisturbed....

In order for such a city to exist, mankind would almost have to undo
something it's long been proud of having accomplished - it would have to
go back
to the trees... :-)

[snip]

In my optimistic moments, I believe the vision you describe is not only
possible but likely, if waaaay long after I'm gone. In my more cynical
moments, I doubt we humans as a species can ever get over our more stupid
and evil impulses. I.e., there will always be greed, there will always be
hatred, there will always be fear, etc. etc. To get rid of those would
mean we are (probably) no longer human.

"Uncle Clover" <UncleClover@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:pvvkf2pta425thdc42mvdfks1lrrm34gpa@4ax.com...

Okay, "whig-out" time again - time to talk all crazy and unrealistic and
stuff. ;-) I'm curious as to what the concept of "Utopia" might mean to
some
of you.

My Utopia is a work in progress. It is a city that is a perfect blend
of man and nature. It includes all cultures and technological styles. It
is a
staggering accomplishment, a city like no other. It's a city that is
fully
technological and at the same time fully natural. It is humanity as part
of
nature, not humanity as self-appointed "ruler" of nature. Imagine such a
place.
A city of humans - gajillions and gajillions of them - in which their
every need
can readily be met, and also in and through which the rest of nature may
freely
flow undisturbed....

In order for such a city to exist, mankind would almost have to undo
something it's long been proud of having accomplished - it would have to
go back
to the trees... :-)

[snip]

In my optimistic moments, I believe the vision you describe is not only
possible but likely, if waaaay long after I'm gone. In my more cynical
moments, I doubt we humans as a species can ever get over our more stupid
and evil impulses. I.e., there will always be greed, there will always be
hatred, there will always be fear, etc. etc. To get rid of those would mean
we are (probably) no longer human.

Gail
aa#2247

In alt.atheism Uncle Clover shared this wisdom:

<snip for brevity>

That would be my Utopia. What's yours?

Simple, really. A system of government based solely on protecting the
smallest minority of all -- the minority of ONE, the conscious
individual. For once the rights of each individual are defended,
EVERYONE'S rights are universally equally defended.

The only laws that could be enforced become blatantly obvious --
everyone is free to do whatever the ***** they like, so long as
whatever they choose to do doesn't adversely affect any other
conscious individual. Crimes that create a victim -- involving
coercion, or initiating unwanted force against another individual
would be punished relative to the victim they created.

This would leave no room for prohibition, nor would it leave room for
bigotry. A wholly secular society, where all religion is entirely
confined to churches -- and any preaching done in public is heavily
frowned upon, as it is known for what it is: fairy tales that have no
basis in reality, inspire crime and hatred, and attempt to impede the
progress of science.

All individual rights equal. Each individual human subordinate to
none, and each individual seen as their own highest value -- superior
only to themselves.

Pretty basic, eh? Unfortunately, at only 17 years old, I'm jaded
enough to see that this will never be so. Not in my life time, anyway.
Humans apparently love feeling superior to other humans, telling
others what to do under some kind of threat, and thus inflicting
misery. Particularly while they have theism to justify their crimes
and hatred, whether they make it apparent, or only subtly display
their nature.

Oh well, that was pleasant. Time to get back to combing alt.atheism
for flame-bait . . . >:)

"Son of Discord"

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
" . . The bible is crap, people who believe it
are idiots, and blasphemy is a victimless
crime because the whole fetid pile of
christianic mythology is a ficticious crock of *****."
-Stix, undefeated former Warlord of the BAAWA
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Uncle Clover wrote:

Okay, "whig-out" time again - time to talk all crazy and unrealistic
and
stuff. ;-) I'm curious as to what the concept of "Utopia" might
mean to some of you.

My Utopia is a work in progress. It is a city that is a perfect blend
of man and nature. It includes all cultures and technological
styles. It is a staggering accomplishment, a city like no other.
It's a city that is fully technological and at the same time fully
natural. It is humanity as part of nature, not humanity as
self-appointed "ruler" of nature. Imagine such a place. A city of
humans - gajillions and gajillions of them - in which their every
need can readily be met, and also in and through which the rest of
nature may freely flow undisturbed....

In order for such a city to exist, mankind would almost have to undo
something it's long been proud of having accomplished - it would have
to go back to the trees... :-)

...or at least back to the skies. ;-) That is seriously my vision of
Utopia - humanity merrily going about its business upon the venues of
the sky while beneath and among us, the rest of nature goes about its
business.

In a way, I think we might actually be working towards that without
even realizing it. After all, what are skyscrapers to us if not what
trees were to our ancestors? And we still have that "upward"
instinct - the one responsible for the cultural notion that the top
floor of any skyscraper is where the brightest and the best should be
situated. At the same time, we continuously yearn for more natural
views in our cities - we plant trees, grow grass, raise flowers...

I think technology emerged from humanity's collective loins before we
were really ready for it. It made us think we were so much more
"special" than all the other lifeforms on the planet, or that we're
"favored" in some way by the universe at large. So many of us even
today are still just hairless chimps garnished with a whisp of
linguistic ability (and not even _good_ linguistic ability at that).
Eventually, if we make it long enough, I think humanity will come
back around. I think we will realize just what our relationship to
nature is and should be, and we may even give up our almost
pathological drive to control absolutely each and every little thing
about life on the entire planet for all species. You know - learn to
get along with other animals, learn to let other animals use the
world as we do, etc... etc... etc...

At least, this I would hope.

That would be my Utopia. What's yours?

Somewhere where you FUCKING athiests could be shot like wild game and
barbequed and eaten like the scum yyou are.

Uncle Clover wrote:

Okay, "whig-out" time again - time to talk all crazy and unrealistic
and
stuff. ;-) I'm curious as to what the concept of "Utopia" might
mean to some of you.

My Utopia is a work in progress. It is a city that is a perfect blend
of man and nature. It includes all cultures and technological
styles. It is a staggering accomplishment, a city like no other.
It's a city that is fully technological and at the same time fully
natural. It is humanity as part of nature, not humanity as
self-appointed "ruler" of nature. Imagine such a place. A city of
humans - gajillions and gajillions of them - in which their every
need can readily be met, and also in and through which the rest of
nature may freely flow undisturbed....

In order for such a city to exist, mankind would almost have to undo
something it's long been proud of having accomplished - it would have
to go back to the trees... :-)

...or at least back to the skies. ;-) That is seriously my vision of
Utopia - humanity merrily going about its business upon the venues of
the sky while beneath and among us, the rest of nature goes about its
business.

In a way, I think we might actually be working towards that without
even realizing it. After all, what are skyscrapers to us if not what
trees were to our ancestors? And we still have that "upward"
instinct - the one responsible for the cultural notion that the top
floor of any skyscraper is where the brightest and the best should be
situated. At the same time, we continuously yearn for more natural
views in our cities - we plant trees, grow grass, raise flowers...

I think technology emerged from humanity's collective loins before we
were really ready for it. It made us think we were so much more
"special" than all the other lifeforms on the planet, or that we're
"favored" in some way by the universe at large. So many of us even
today are still just hairless chimps garnished with a whisp of
linguistic ability (and not even _good_ linguistic ability at that).
Eventually, if we make it long enough, I think humanity will come
back around. I think we will realize just what our relationship to
nature is and should be, and we may even give up our almost
pathological drive to control absolutely each and every little thing
about life on the entire planet for all species. You know - learn to
get along with other animals, learn to let other animals use the
world as we do, etc... etc... etc...

At least, this I would hope.

That would be my Utopia. What's yours?

Somewhere where you FUCKING athiests could be shot like wild game and
barbequed and eaten like the scum yyou are.

Uncle Clover wrote:

Okay, "whig-out" time again - time to talk all crazy and unrealistic and
stuff. ;-) I'm curious as to what the concept of "Utopia" might mean to some
of you.

since other people always ***** things up, there would be no other
people. but then it would be pretty damn boring.....

so I guess I'll just settle for life as we know it.

Jim