| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"knighTslayer" |
| Date: |
08 Jan 2005 02:01:12 PM |
| Object: |
What word is used for.. |
...someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion and so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non creationist
view or natural view.
knightslayer
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
08 Jan 2005 08:39:07 PM |
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"knighTslayer" <theKnighTslayer@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:s92dnWUXIqSKoX3cRVnyiA@pipex.net...
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion and so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non creationist
view or natural view.
knightslayer
There is no such society in the first place. However the debate with your
agnostic is another question. It is closely related to the question: What is
a religion? It could be argues that consciousness itself is a type of
religious experience, in that it posits a difference between existence and
non-existence, and between life and death.
--
The argument that everything had a Creator because it's too complicated, is
about as reasonable as saying that it couldn't have been created since it's
too complicated.
It's about like saying that a super flea created a dog. Then
the good fleas go to a great dog in the sky, while the bad unbelieving fleas
are scratched off into a super rug to be forever hungry. If you think dogs
weren't created by a Great Flea then you are an afleaist.
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| User: "Boony" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
09 Jan 2005 01:57:05 AM |
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"knighTslayer" <theKnighTslayer@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:s92dnWUXIqSKoX3cRVnyiA@pipex.net...
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion and so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non creationist
view or natural view.
knightslayer
I don't know who first came up with this, but tell him that Atheism is a
religion like baldness is a hair color.
Sums it up well I think.
Boony
aa #1444
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
08 Jan 2005 04:28:39 PM |
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"knighTslayer" <theKnighTslayer@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:s92dnWUXIqSKoX3cRVnyiA@pipex.net...
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
Fictional.
Gad, that's depressing.
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion and so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non creationist
view or natural view.
Ask him if he thinks not playing baseball is a sport.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
08 Jan 2005 04:27:15 PM |
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In alt.atheism on Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:01:12 -0000, "knighTslayer"
<theKnighTslayer@dsl.pipex.com> let us all know that:
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
Atheist.
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic
An agnostic what? Surely your counterpart doesn't think that
agnosticism is a 3rd option. That's just a misunderstanding of what
agnosticism is.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "Brian E. Clark" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
08 Jan 2005 03:20:07 PM |
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In article <s92dnWUXIqSKoX3cRVnyiA@pipex.net>, knighTslayer said...
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
We would call that person an atheist. They would not, because they would
have no such term as "atheist" in their language.
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion,
Is his background theistic? That is the usual source for such "everyone
worships something" misconceptions.
For a person raised among the devout, it can be almost impossible to
conceptualize a worldview that doesn't involve chaining one's beliefs,
morals and hopes to some central entity. When such a person tries to
comprehend a god-free worldview, he reflexively imagines a belief
structure identical to his own, with some other entity filling in for
God. The notion that *nothing* transcendentally central and
authoritative exists in certain worldviews is a baffling, irritating
challenge to someone who has never been exposed to the idea.
Yes, many Christians really do have that famous "God-shaped" hole in
their hearts -- but that's because their parents and other believers
have laboriously drilled that hole, not because the hole is a natural
feature of a human being.
which of course is the rejection of religion and so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a
non creationist view or natural view.
I don't think your friend is thinking too deeply about this matter. If
nothing else, many Christians have a "natural view," which by your
friend's view would mean they hold dual allegiance to two religions.
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
08 Jan 2005 03:18:17 PM |
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On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:01:12 -0000, "knighTslayer"
<theKnighTslayer@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion and so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non creationist
view or natural view.
Turn it back on him by telling him that every time he doesn't do
something, that is a religion.
"Did you ***** your pants just now?"
"No"
"That is a religion"
Eventually he'll get the point.
knightslayer
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| User: "TCS" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
08 Jan 2005 04:46:02 PM |
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On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:01:12 -0000, knighTslayer <theKnighTslayer@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
atheist.
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| User: "nJb" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
11 Jan 2005 01:24:19 AM |
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knighTslayer wrote:
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion and so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non creationist
view or natural view.
knightslayer
When I was attending Catholic school the nuns referred to them as
"pagans". They (the nuns) were full of *****.
Jack
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| User: "Little Me" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
11 Jan 2005 02:40:44 AM |
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..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept
of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion and
so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non
creationist
view or natural view.
knightslayer
When I was attending Catholic school the nuns referred to them as
"pagans". They (the nuns) were full of *****.
Jack
I think all Catholics are full of it, have you read the posts with these
cult member-Catholics?
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| User: "nJb" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
11 Jan 2005 12:40:41 PM |
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Little Me wrote:
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept
of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion and
so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non
creationist
view or natural view.
knightslayer
When I was attending Catholic school the nuns referred to them as
"pagans". They (the nuns) were full of *****.
Jack
I think all Catholics are full of it, have you read the posts with these
cult member-Catholics?
The ones that hang out in aa sure seem to be a wacko bunch.
Jack
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| User: "Little Me" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
11 Jan 2005 12:43:00 PM |
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I think all Catholics are full of it, have you read the posts with
these
cult member-Catholics?
The ones that hang out in aa sure seem to be a wacko bunch.
Jack
They really do their cause no good whatsoever do they?
LOL Bless them, obviously they feel such a need to justify their delusion
by trying to make others believe the same pointless garbage they do, there
is a plus though, at least when you hear "Christian" you can stay the hell
away from them, by saying they are one, they brand themselves all with the
same "wan**er alert - stay away" sign :-)
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
13 Jan 2005 07:06:20 PM |
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On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:24:19 -0700, nJb <NoNHL@all.com> wrote:
knighTslayer wrote:
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion and so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non creationist
view or natural view.
knightslayer
When I was attending Catholic school the nuns referred to them as
"pagans". They (the nuns) were full of *****.
If not a priestly load.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
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| User: "Little Me" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
14 Jan 2005 04:32:45 AM |
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stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:un6eu0t08adjgvvfr6hp9rgjig3r1ppc00@4ax.com...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:24:19 -0700, nJb <NoNHL@all.com> wrote:
When I was attending Catholic school the nuns referred to them as
"pagans". They (the nuns) were full of *****.
If not a priestly load.
ewwwww! LOL!
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
14 Jan 2005 08:07:38 PM |
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On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:32:45 GMT, "Little Me"
<soul.lover@ntlworld.com> wrote:
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:un6eu0t08adjgvvfr6hp9rgjig3r1ppc00@4ax.com...
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:24:19 -0700, nJb <NoNHL@all.com> wrote:
When I was attending Catholic school the nuns referred to them as
"pagans". They (the nuns) were full of *****.
If not a priestly load.
ewwwww! LOL!
What kind of meat do priests eat on Friday?
Nun!
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
08 Jan 2005 02:48:27 PM |
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knighTslayer wrote:
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion and so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non creationist
view or natural view.
There is no such word, in the absence of religion. A theist is one
who believes that their hypothetical god (one or more) actually exists
outside of their imagination. Atheists are everyone else. So the
person in question would certainly qualify for the descriptive
adjective, atheist, though they would have never heard of the word and
would have no use for it if they did.
--
John Popelish
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| User: "Glenn Arnold" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
08 Jan 2005 03:03:43 PM |
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John Popelish wrote:
knighTslayer wrote:
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion and so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non creationist
view or natural view.
There is no such word, in the absence of religion. A theist is one
who believes that their hypothetical god (one or more) actually exists
outside of their imagination. Atheists are everyone else. So the
person in question would certainly qualify for the descriptive
adjective, atheist, though they would have never heard of the word and
would have no use for it if they did.
Reminds me of the term "retronym," which describes something in the past
that needs to be discriminated against something in the present. For
example: Manual typewriter, Rotary Phone, Analog clock. When these items
were the only kind, it would have been totally unnecessary to specify
manual, rotary or analog, but since they have been updated, we need the
distinction.
It's not a matter of whether the person needs a word to describe
himself, it's whether the need for the word exists in any context, even
hypothetical. So even though the likelihood of the person in the above
situation may not exist, it's still reasonable to have a word for it,
assuming there's a need to discuss the possibility of such a situation.
Antony Flew describes himself as a "negative atheist." I would describe
the person as a "natural atheist" or "default atheist." But certainly an
atheist.
Glenn Arnold
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| User: "chibiabos" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
09 Jan 2005 01:22:03 AM |
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In article <41E04AAF.8080304@att.net>, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
John Popelish wrote:
knighTslayer wrote:
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion and so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non creationist
view or natural view.
There is no such word, in the absence of religion. A theist is one
who believes that their hypothetical god (one or more) actually exists
outside of their imagination. Atheists are everyone else. So the
person in question would certainly qualify for the descriptive
adjective, atheist, though they would have never heard of the word and
would have no use for it if they did.
Reminds me of the term "retronym," which describes something in the past
that needs to be discriminated against something in the present. For
example: Manual typewriter, Rotary Phone, Analog clock. When these items
were the only kind, it would have been totally unnecessary to specify
manual, rotary or analog, but since they have been updated, we need the
distinction.
"Retronym." That's a cool word. I'll have to raspberry it.
-chib
--
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
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| User: "Kevin Anthoney" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
08 Jan 2005 02:03:50 PM |
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knighTslayer wrote:
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
"Lucky".
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion and so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non creationist
view or natural view.
knightslayer
--
Kevin Anthoney
kanthoney[a]dsl.pipex.com
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
08 Jan 2005 03:59:06 PM |
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Kevin Anthoney wrote:
knighTslayer wrote:
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
"Lucky".
Damn...you beat me to it !
--
Jez
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
NFS Underground2, Americas Army And MOH-PA
yahoo ID: hellward2004
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
07 Jan 2005 10:32:05 PM |
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knighTslayer wrote:
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion and so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non creationist
view or natural view.
knightslayer
If atheism is a religion, remind him its the only true religion.
--
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "sanguinevikings" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
08 Jan 2005 02:59:11 PM |
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knighTslayer wrote:
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
When one exists, they will be atheists.
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion and so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non creationist
view or natural view.
knightslayer
I didn't reject religion. Nobody ever expected me to believe in God.
There are religions which do not have gods, Buddhism, for example. It is
very much a religion. It has all the other attribites including
promoting false consciousness and developing a clerical class. It is
also one of the worst religions there is in terms of the level of
asceticism required of its adherents.
Stalinism was a religion which was officially atheistic. In practice it
made massive concessions to the church which the Bolsheviks had
originally outlawed. Trotskyism is also a religion with Stalin as Satan.
Trotskyites (though not Trotsky himself) reduced their intellectual
workload by creating a set of tenets that almost amount to holy writ.
Secular humanism has taken on some of the characteristics of a religion
as it has endeavoured to become organised. Most atheists have shunned
it, however.
All of which is a very long winded way of saying that your friend is
wrong. I suspect he is trying to define his agnosticism by demonising
atheism as a religion. Just respect his right not to be sure, and try to
educate him.
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
08 Jan 2005 08:39:05 PM |
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"sanguinevikings" <spam@spam.not> wrote in message
news:v62dneRMg_7r1H3cRVnyvA@brightview.com...
knighTslayer wrote:
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the concept
of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic ideas?
When one exists, they will be atheists.
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion and
so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non
creationist
view or natural view.
knightslayer
I didn't reject religion. Nobody ever expected me to believe in God.
There are religions which do not have gods, Buddhism, for example. It is
very much a religion. It has all the other attribites including
promoting false consciousness and developing a clerical class. It is
also one of the worst religions there is in terms of the level of
asceticism required of its adherents.
Stalinism was a religion which was officially atheistic. In practice it
made massive concessions to the church which the Bolsheviks had
originally outlawed. Trotskyism is also a religion with Stalin as Satan.
Trotskyites (though not Trotsky himself) reduced their intellectual
workload by creating a set of tenets that almost amount to holy writ.
Secular humanism has taken on some of the characteristics of a religion
as it has endeavoured to become organised. Most atheists have shunned
it, however.
All of which is a very long winded way of saying that your friend is
wrong. I suspect he is trying to define his agnosticism by demonising
atheism as a religion. Just respect his right not to be sure, and try to
educate him.
.
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
08 Jan 2005 09:17:20 PM |
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"Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:dP0Ed.1850$pZ4.1112@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"sanguinevikings" <spam@spam.not> wrote in message
news:v62dneRMg_7r1H3cRVnyvA@brightview.com...
knighTslayer wrote:
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the
concept
of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic
ideas?
When one exists, they will be atheists.
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion
and
so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non
creationist
view or natural view.
knightslayer
I didn't reject religion. Nobody ever expected me to believe in God.
There are religions which do not have gods, Buddhism, for example. It is
very much a religion. It has all the other attribites including
promoting false consciousness and developing a clerical class. It is
also one of the worst religions there is in terms of the level of
asceticism required of its adherents.
Stalinism was a religion which was officially atheistic. In practice it
made massive concessions to the church which the Bolsheviks had
originally outlawed. Trotskyism is also a religion with Stalin as Satan.
Trotskyites (though not Trotsky himself) reduced their intellectual
workload by creating a set of tenets that almost amount to holy writ.
Secular humanism has taken on some of the characteristics of a religion
as it has endeavoured to become organised. Most atheists have shunned
it, however.
I doubt that this last sentence is correct. Do you have anything
to back it up? Are there any people in alt.atheism who consider
themselves to be secular humanists? I'm one.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
alt.atheism atheist/agnostic list name collector
BAAWA Knight & EAC Bible thumper thumper
http://questioner.www2.50megs.com
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
All of which is a very long winded way of saying that your friend is
wrong. I suspect he is trying to define his agnosticism by demonising
atheism as a religion. Just respect his right not to be sure, and try to
educate him.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
08 Jan 2005 11:23:41 PM |
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I am. I suspect most Western atheists are secular humanists, even if
they don't know it.
Reminds me of a roommate my wife and I had about 25 years back. She was
politically conservative, and spoke in disparaging terms of "the
feminists". Yet she was a locomotive engineer, and complained about how
the guys at work wouldn't treat her as an equal... She had funny ideas
of what a feminist was.
Kermit
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| User: "sanguinevikings" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
08 Jan 2005 10:24:44 PM |
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Michelle Malkin wrote:
"Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:dP0Ed.1850$pZ4.1112@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"sanguinevikings" <spam@spam.not> wrote in message
news:v62dneRMg_7r1H3cRVnyvA@brightview.com...
knighTslayer wrote:
..someone born in to a society that has never even heard of the
concept
of
supernatural power as god or gods, never been exposed to theistic
ideas?
When one exists, they will be atheists.
For example,. I'm having an argument with an agnostic who he says that
atheism is a religion, which of course is the rejection of religion
and
so
on. He also thinks that everyone has a religion, be it a non
creationist
view or natural view.
knightslayer
I didn't reject religion. Nobody ever expected me to believe in God.
There are religions which do not have gods, Buddhism, for example. It is
very much a religion. It has all the other attribites including
promoting false consciousness and developing a clerical class. It is
also one of the worst religions there is in terms of the level of
asceticism required of its adherents.
Stalinism was a religion which was officially atheistic. In practice it
made massive concessions to the church which the Bolsheviks had
originally outlawed. Trotskyism is also a religion with Stalin as Satan.
Trotskyites (though not Trotsky himself) reduced their intellectual
workload by creating a set of tenets that almost amount to holy writ.
Secular humanism has taken on some of the characteristics of a religion
as it has endeavoured to become organised. Most atheists have shunned
it, however.
I doubt that this last sentence is correct. Do you have anything
to back it up? Are there any people in alt.atheism who consider
themselves to be secular humanists? I'm one.
Things are probably different in the USA. The proportion of the
population who are atheists and agnostics is certainly radically different.
There are two secularist organisations in the UK: the National Secular
Society and the British Humanist Association.The BHA seems to be a bit
of a celebrity club, with surpisingly little public profile. They do
offer wedding ceremonies and such. The NSS is a much more effective
campaigning organisation despite its small membership, with a good track
record of letter writing and press releases.
I do not know the exact size of either organisation, but it is certain
that most of the UK's large and growing majority of atheists and
agnostics do not belong to either. We just get on with life here for the
most part. Religion simply doesn't impinge on most of us as adults. It
is compulsory at school so we are happy to leave it behind us. Probably
if it was more commonplace in the community,
atheists/agnostics/humanists would be more organised.
.
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| User: "AngryJohn" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
08 Jan 2005 10:39:55 PM |
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On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:24:44 +0000, sanguinevikings <spam@spam.not>
wrote:
[snip]
Secular humanism has taken on some of the characteristics of a religion
as it has endeavoured to become organised. Most atheists have shunned
it, however.
I doubt that this last sentence is correct. Do you have anything
to back it up? Are there any people in alt.atheism who consider
themselves to be secular humanists? I'm one.
Things are probably different in the USA. The proportion of the
population who are atheists and agnostics is certainly radically different.
There are two secularist organisations in the UK: the National Secular
Society and the British Humanist Association.The BHA seems to be a bit
of a celebrity club, with surpisingly little public profile. They do
offer wedding ceremonies and such. The NSS is a much more effective
campaigning organisation despite its small membership, with a good track
record of letter writing and press releases.
I do not know the exact size of either organisation, but it is certain
that most of the UK's large and growing majority of atheists and
agnostics do not belong to either. We just get on with life here for the
most part. Religion simply doesn't impinge on most of us as adults. It
is compulsory at school so we are happy to leave it behind us. Probably
if it was more commonplace in the community,
atheists/agnostics/humanists would be more organised.
Organization in and of itself does not equate to something being
religious. If that were the case, anything organized being
"religious", then almost every business or group would be considered
religious. Above you stated that secular humanism has taken on
characteristics of religion yet you only present organization as the
characteristic for comparison. I think this is a far stretch to
consider something a religion based on a single characteristic of
comparison.
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
.
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| User: "sanguinevikings" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
09 Jan 2005 05:31:39 AM |
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AngryJohn wrote:
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:24:44 +0000, sanguinevikings <spam@spam.not>
wrote:
[snip]
Secular humanism has taken on some of the characteristics of a religion
as it has endeavoured to become organised. Most atheists have shunned
it, however.
I doubt that this last sentence is correct. Do you have anything
to back it up? Are there any people in alt.atheism who consider
themselves to be secular humanists? I'm one.
Things are probably different in the USA. The proportion of the
population who are atheists and agnostics is certainly radically different.
There are two secularist organisations in the UK: the National Secular
Society and the British Humanist Association.The BHA seems to be a bit
of a celebrity club, with surpisingly little public profile. They do
offer wedding ceremonies and such. The NSS is a much more effective
campaigning organisation despite its small membership, with a good track
record of letter writing and press releases.
I do not know the exact size of either organisation, but it is certain
that most of the UK's large and growing majority of atheists and
agnostics do not belong to either. We just get on with life here for the
most part. Religion simply doesn't impinge on most of us as adults. It
is compulsory at school so we are happy to leave it behind us. Probably
if it was more commonplace in the community,
atheists/agnostics/humanists would be more organised.
Organization in and of itself does not equate to something being
religious.
I didn't mean to imply that it did.
If that were the case, anything organized being
"religious", then almost every business or group would be considered
religious. Above you stated that secular humanism has taken on
characteristics of religion yet you only present organization as the
characteristic for comparison. I think this is a far stretch to
consider something a religion based on a single characteristic of
comparison.
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
If, by 'secular humanist' you mean somebody who chooses to get by
without religion and has a view that human beings are what matter and
are naturally good and co-operative then that automatically makes most
people secular humanists, whatever else they believe in. It certainly
makes me one.
Sorry, forgot to mention proselytisation in my supporting evidence. This
was certainly true of the BHA in its heyday back in the 60s, it's why my
parents lapsed. I gather that some American humanists have services.
Fine if that's your bag, and in the US it probably is more appropriate.
I am pretty sure that most atheists, even there, just prefer to get on
with living without God.
I, however do feel that something has to be done about the potential
backslide into belief. I joke sometimes about going round on people's
doorsteps.
"I'm here to bring you the good news: God does not exist, you are not
being watched, there is no grand purpose and things happen because we
either let them happen, we make them happen or we can't stop them
happening. Here's a leaflet with some quotes from 'A brief history of
time' for you to read."
But, seriously, I am sure that how we organis(z)e would be a useful
topic for this ng to discuss.
.
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| User: "AngryJohn" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
09 Jan 2005 10:29:15 PM |
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On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:31:39 +0000, sanguinevikings <spam@spam.not>
wrote:
AngryJohn wrote:
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:24:44 +0000, sanguinevikings <spam@spam.not>
wrote:
[snip]
Secular humanism has taken on some of the characteristics of a religion
as it has endeavoured to become organised. Most atheists have shunned
it, however.
I doubt that this last sentence is correct. Do you have anything
to back it up? Are there any people in alt.atheism who consider
themselves to be secular humanists? I'm one.
Things are probably different in the USA. The proportion of the
population who are atheists and agnostics is certainly radically different.
There are two secularist organisations in the UK: the National Secular
Society and the British Humanist Association.The BHA seems to be a bit
of a celebrity club, with surpisingly little public profile. They do
offer wedding ceremonies and such. The NSS is a much more effective
campaigning organisation despite its small membership, with a good track
record of letter writing and press releases.
I do not know the exact size of either organisation, but it is certain
that most of the UK's large and growing majority of atheists and
agnostics do not belong to either. We just get on with life here for the
most part. Religion simply doesn't impinge on most of us as adults. It
is compulsory at school so we are happy to leave it behind us. Probably
if it was more commonplace in the community,
atheists/agnostics/humanists would be more organised.
Organization in and of itself does not equate to something being
religious.
I didn't mean to imply that it did.
Just wanted to clarify, reading what you wrote kind of made it sound
that organization was the main point. Thanks.
If that were the case, anything organized being
"religious", then almost every business or group would be considered
religious. Above you stated that secular humanism has taken on
characteristics of religion yet you only present organization as the
characteristic for comparison. I think this is a far stretch to
consider something a religion based on a single characteristic of
comparison.
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
If, by 'secular humanist' you mean somebody who chooses to get by
without religion and has a view that human beings are what matter and
are naturally good and co-operative then that automatically makes most
people secular humanists, whatever else they believe in. It certainly
makes me one.
Sorry, forgot to mention proselytisation in my supporting evidence. This
was certainly true of the BHA in its heyday back in the 60s, it's why my
parents lapsed. I gather that some American humanists have services.
Fine if that's your bag, and in the US it probably is more appropriate.
I am pretty sure that most atheists, even there, just prefer to get on
with living without God.
I do not personally know of any group like that having any kind of
"services". I guess that would kind of depend on how you define
services. There are a lot of groups that gather for a common cause,
typically to promote a political agenda. Could de religious people,
atheists, etc...... I would not call what they do within that group
religion.
I, however do feel that something has to be done about the potential
backslide into belief. I joke sometimes about going round on people's
doorsteps.
{shrug} people will do what people will do. If they choose to
backslide into belief well that is their right. I can't see why
anyone would but that is my viewpoint.
I do not want people calling on me to promote their religion just as I
do not call on anyone to promote atheism.
"I'm here to bring you the good news: God does not exist, you are not
being watched, there is no grand purpose and things happen because we
either let them happen, we make them happen or we can't stop them
happening. Here's a leaflet with some quotes from 'A brief history of
time' for you to read."
But, seriously, I am sure that how we organis(z)e would be a useful
topic for this ng to discuss.
Maybe
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
.
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| User: "Harry F. Leopold" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
09 Jan 2005 08:19:18 AM |
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On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:17:20 -0600, Michelle Malkin wrote
(in article <0IOdnavJg6qnP33cRVn-rA@comcast.com>):
"sanguinevikings" <spam@spam.not> wrote in message
news:v62dneRMg_7r1H3cRVnyvA@brightview.com...
snip
Secular humanism has taken on some of the characteristics of a religion
as it has endeavoured to become organised. Most atheists have shunned
it, however.
I doubt that this last sentence is correct. Do you have anything
to back it up? Are there any people in alt.atheism who consider
themselves to be secular humanists? I'm one.
I'm not. Never had anything to do with them.
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
"Nothing can stand up to atheistic critical examination. You guys are the
proctologists of Religion." - angelicusrex
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: What word is used for.. |
11 Jan 2005 09:55:53 AM |
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On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 22:17:20 -0500, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
"Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:dP0Ed.1850$pZ4.1112@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
[]
Secular humanism has taken on some of the characteristics of a religion
as it has endeavoured to become organised. Most atheists have shunned
it, however.
I doubt that this last sentence is correct. Do you have anything
to back it up? Are there any people in alt.atheism who consider
themselves to be secular humanists? I'm one.
Count me out.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
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