| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
16 Apr 2005 02:23:42 AM |
| Object: |
What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
I think the thing I would need is some sort of objective proof
(obviously not happening any time soon). Would any atheists change
belief based on a personal incident?
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
16 Apr 2005 03:27:02 AM |
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On 16 Apr 2005 00:23:42 -0700 in alt.atheism,
sashay_biatch@hotmail.com (sashay_biatch@hotmail.com) said, directing
the reply to alt.atheism
I think the thing I would need is some sort of objective proof
(obviously not happening any time soon). Would any atheists change
belief based on a personal incident?
Frankly, I really don't know. But then again, at least from the
traditional Christian perspective this is not a problem, because any
such God, being omniscient knows precisely what would convince me of
His existence. And being omnipotent, it would cost Him nothing to
provide that proof, and since he loves me He's motivated to do so.
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
Neat, eh?
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
16 Apr 2005 06:22:57 AM |
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On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 09:27:02 +0100, Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com>
wrote:
Frankly, I really don't know. But then again, at least from the
traditional Christian perspective this is not a problem, because any
such God, being omniscient knows precisely what would convince me of
His existence. And being omnipotent, it would cost Him nothing to
provide that proof, and since he loves me He's motivated to do so.
Thinking like tw again. You overlook his objective in your deciding for
yourself basis your experiences in life. If he wanted a tw robot, he would have
given you a push button instead of a belly button.
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
16 Apr 2005 07:05:01 AM |
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On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 06:22:57 -0500 in alt.atheism, duke (duke
<duckgumbo32@cox.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 09:27:02 +0100, Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com>
wrote:
Frankly, I really don't know. But then again, at least from the
traditional Christian perspective this is not a problem, because any
such God, being omniscient knows precisely what would convince me of
His existence. And being omnipotent, it would cost Him nothing to
provide that proof, and since he loves me He's motivated to do so.
Thinking like tw again. You overlook his objective in your deciding for
yourself basis your experiences in life. If he wanted a tw robot, he would have
given you a push button instead of a belly button.
Oh dear... You assume that the certainty that a particular God exists
automatically implies that one necessarily gives ones allegiance to
that God. Yet even in the Christian tradition there are several
examples where this simply isn't so. Moreover there are many human
examples where people opposed what they perceived as an unjust ruler
despite the certainty of horrible penalties when their opposition was
discovered.
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
Really? Why do you think that?
.
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
16 Apr 2005 04:25:16 PM |
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On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 06:22:57 -0500 in alt.atheism, duke (duke
<duckgumbo32@cox.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 09:27:02 +0100, Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com>
wrote:
Frankly, I really don't know. But then again, at least from the
traditional Christian perspective this is not a problem, because any
such God, being omniscient knows precisely what would convince me of
His existence. And being omnipotent, it would cost Him nothing to
provide that proof, and since he loves me He's motivated to do so.
Thinking like tw again. You overlook his objective in your deciding for
yourself basis your experiences in life.
What exactly would that objective be, and where in the bible would that be?
If he wanted a tw robot, he would have
given you a push button instead of a belly button.
I suspect that anything with the technology to construct me, would have the
technology to fit a better switch.
--
Puck Greenman
The spelling Like any opinion stated here
is purely my own
#162 BAAWA Knight.
Plonked by Rob Duncan
Na bister 500,000
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
16 Apr 2005 12:10:23 PM |
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On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:05:01 +0100, Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com>
wrote:
Frankly, I really don't know. But then again, at least from the
traditional Christian perspective this is not a problem, because any
such God, being omniscient knows precisely what would convince me of
His existence. And being omnipotent, it would cost Him nothing to
provide that proof, and since he loves me He's motivated to do so.
Thinking like tw again. You overlook his objective in your deciding for
yourself basis your experiences in life. If he wanted a tw robot, he would have
given you a push button instead of a belly button.
Oh dear... You assume that the certainty that a particular God exists
automatically implies that one necessarily gives ones allegiance to
that God.
There is only one that is almighty.
Yet even in the Christian tradition there are several
examples where this simply isn't so. Moreover there are many human
examples where people opposed what they perceived as an unjust ruler
despite the certainty of horrible penalties when their opposition was
discovered.
Say what?
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
Really? Why do you think that?
You're telling God he must act like you.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
16 Apr 2005 02:02:25 PM |
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On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:10:23 -0500 in alt.atheism, duke (duke
<duckgumbo32@cox.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:05:01 +0100, Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com>
wrote:
Frankly, I really don't know. But then again, at least from the
traditional Christian perspective this is not a problem, because any
such God, being omniscient knows precisely what would convince me of
His existence. And being omnipotent, it would cost Him nothing to
provide that proof, and since he loves me He's motivated to do so.
Thinking like tw again. You overlook his objective in your deciding for
yourself basis your experiences in life. If he wanted a tw robot, he would have
given you a push button instead of a belly button.
Oh dear... You assume that the certainty that a particular God exists
automatically implies that one necessarily gives ones allegiance to
that God.
There is only one that is almighty.
Yet even in the Christian tradition there are several
examples where this simply isn't so. Moreover there are many human
examples where people opposed what they perceived as an unjust ruler
despite the certainty of horrible penalties when their opposition was
discovered.
Say what?
Too complex for you? What a shame. But to amplify, why do you think
that certain knowledge of God's existence would make me a robot?
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
Really? Why do you think that?
You're telling God he must act like you.
Earl, while you may be under the impression that I'm omnipotent,
omniscient and all-loving, I alas suffer from no such illusion and
hence find your argument specious.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 08:50:15 AM |
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On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:02:25 +0100, Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com>
wrote:
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God. Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
Really? Why do you think that?
You're telling God he must act like you.
Earl, while you may be under the impression that I'm omnipotent,
omniscient and all-loving, I alas suffer from no such illusion and
hence find your argument specious.
Apparently you do.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 09:15:06 AM |
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On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 08:50:15 -0500 in alt.atheism, duke (duke
<duckgumbo32@cox.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:02:25 +0100, Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com>
wrote:
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God. Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
Really? Why do you think that?
You're telling God he must act like you.
Earl, while you may be under the impression that I'm omnipotent,
omniscient and all-loving, I alas suffer from no such illusion and
hence find your argument specious.
Apparently you do.
Find you argument specious? Certainly I do.
And by all means avoid the point at issue, even to the extent of
making an unmarked snip.
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 04:48:21 PM |
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On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:15:06 +0100, Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 08:50:15 -0500 in alt.atheism, duke (duke
<duckgumbo32@cox.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:02:25 +0100, Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com>
wrote:
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God. Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
Really? Why do you think that?
You're telling God he must act like you.
Earl, while you may be under the impression that I'm omnipotent,
omniscient and all-loving, I alas suffer from no such illusion and
hence find your argument specious.
Apparently you do.
Find you argument specious? Certainly I do.
And by all means avoid the point at issue, even to the extent of
making an unmarked snip.
I'm surprised that you can find his argument, at all.
I never could.
--
Puck Greenman
The spelling Like any opinion stated here
is purely my own
#162 BAAWA Knight.
Plonked by Rob Duncan
Na bister 500,000
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 05:30:50 PM |
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On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:48:21 GMT in alt.atheism, Dubh Ghall (Dubh
Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:15:06 +0100, Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 08:50:15 -0500 in alt.atheism, duke (duke
<duckgumbo32@cox.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:02:25 +0100, Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com>
wrote:
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God. Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
Really? Why do you think that?
You're telling God he must act like you.
Earl, while you may be under the impression that I'm omnipotent,
omniscient and all-loving, I alas suffer from no such illusion and
hence find your argument specious.
Apparently you do.
Find you argument specious? Certainly I do.
And by all means avoid the point at issue, even to the extent of
making an unmarked snip.
I'm surprised that you can find his argument, at all.
I never could.
True enough. "Assertions" would have been a better choice of word.
In a way though it's a bit of a pity because while his assertion that
the certain knowledge that God exists removes human free-will is a
commonplace of Christian apologetics, I can't recall seeing an
explanation as to why that should be so, particularly given that the
Bible and Christian tradition holds that some entities who are
portrayed as having that certain knowledge chose to rebel against God.
Still, I suppose it would be getting on for a miracle is Earl actually
managed to produce a cogent argument to support one or other of his
throwaway assertions.
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| User: "Just Mark" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
16 Apr 2005 12:28:25 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:9kh2619q9ldetnv8uhmvvlvppodn98k2fk@4ax.com...
:
: >>>Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
: >>>Neat, eh?
: >>Very amateurish.
: >Really? Why do you think that?
:
: You're telling God he must act like you.
"God"...definition, please.
Just Mark
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 08:47:26 AM |
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On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 17:28:25 GMT, "Just Mark" <neverassumeyouknow@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:9kh2619q9ldetnv8uhmvvlvppodn98k2fk@4ax.com...
:
: >>>Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
: >>>Neat, eh?
: >>Very amateurish.
: >Really? Why do you think that?
:
: You're telling God he must act like you.
"God"...definition, please.
Supreme being.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "Just Mark" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 10:57:58 AM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:u6q461db0cnfc3f8assl06dm19mhf26dt7@4ax.com...
: On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 17:28:25 GMT, "Just Mark"
<neverassumeyouknow@yahoo.com>
: wrote:
:
: >
: >"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
: >news:9kh2619q9ldetnv8uhmvvlvppodn98k2fk@4ax.com...
: >
: >:
: >: >>>Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
: >: >>>Neat, eh?
: >: >>Very amateurish.
: >: >Really? Why do you think that?
: >:
: >: You're telling God he must act like you.
: >
: >"God"...definition, please.
:
: Supreme being.
"Supreme"....definition, please.
"being"....definition, please.
JM
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 07:42:38 PM |
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On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 08:47:26 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 17:28:25 GMT, "Just Mark" <neverassumeyouknow@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:9kh2619q9ldetnv8uhmvvlvppodn98k2fk@4ax.com...
:
: >>>Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
: >>>Neat, eh?
: >>Very amateurish.
: >Really? Why do you think that?
:
: You're telling God he must act like you.
"God"...definition, please.
Supreme being.
Meaningless drivel. Supreme being a prime glittering generality and
talk about begging myraid questions!
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
16 Apr 2005 02:16:45 PM |
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on 16 Apr 2005 in alt.atheism, duke dropped trou, farted, whirled, then
shouted:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:05:01 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
Frankly, I really don't know. But then again, at least from the
traditional Christian perspective this is not a problem, because any
such God, being omniscient knows precisely what would convince me of
His existence. And being omnipotent, it would cost Him nothing to
provide that proof, and since he loves me He's motivated to do so.
Thinking like tw again. You overlook his objective in your deciding
for yourself basis your experiences in life. If he wanted a tw
robot, he would have given you a push button instead of a belly
button.
Oh dear... You assume that the certainty that a particular God exists
automatically implies that one necessarily gives ones allegiance to
that God.
There is only one that is almighty.
The existence of "god" is presupposed in the christian mind, and all
argument from their side begins with this assumption. Therefore *all*
christian argument is based on a logical fallacy. In other words, duke,
your arguments only convice other Christians, who agree with you like a
room full of bobblehead dolls.
Yet even in the Christian tradition there are several
examples where this simply isn't so. Moreover there are many human
examples where people opposed what they perceived as an unjust ruler
despite the certainty of horrible penalties when their opposition was
discovered.
Say what?
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
Really? Why do you think that?
You're telling God he must act like you.
There is no god.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
Plonked by Jason Gastrich for all eternity...
______________
As you were, I was. As I am, you will be.
--- Hunter S. Thompson
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 08:51:59 AM |
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On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:16:45 -0500, Vic Sagerquist <address@withheld.com> wrote:
There is only one that is almighty.
The existence of "god" is presupposed in the christian mind, and all
argument from their side begins with this assumption. Therefore *all*
christian argument is based on a logical fallacy. In other words, duke,
your arguments only convice other Christians, who agree with you like a
room full of bobblehead dolls.
Just like the nonexistence of God is presupposed in the atheist mind.
There is no god.
Too bad you can't back it up.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 06:55:00 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:16:45 -0500, Vic Sagerquist <address@withheld.com>
wrote:
There is only one that is almighty.
The existence of "god" is presupposed in the christian mind, and all
argument from their side begins with this assumption. Therefore *all*
christian argument is based on a logical fallacy. In other words, duke,
your arguments only convice other Christians, who agree with you like a
room full of bobblehead dolls.
Just like the nonexistence of God is presupposed in the atheist mind.
There is no god.
Too bad you can't back it up.
**************************************************
God disproven #1 Short Version
W.C. Barwell 3-9-05
**************************************************
By god here, I mean the Grand God of Grand Theology,
the god that is perfect, omnipotent, omniscient,
omnibenevolent. The god that is defined as the most
powerful thing that can be imagined, the creator of
all. This god is defined as being intelligent, having
conciousness, and will. I mean this in the general
overall sense that the word god means dogmatically to
Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
1. Can god do the impossible, create a square circle or
a 4 sided triangle?
2. That really asks the question, does god create the
rules, the laws, the logic of the Universe at large?
And thus can change them at a whim, or for a reason?
3. Since god is supposedly omnipotent, let us try
answering yes.
4. If yes, god could easily create a world where man has
free will yet freely chooses only to do moral good.
5. But in this world we see that man often does moral
evil.
6. If god could create such a word since he creates the
Universe's rules, and does not do so, god is effectively
the creator of all evil, past, present and future.
Evil exists only because god allows it to when he could
easily end all evil by creating a Universe where indeed
man has free will and yet freely chooses only to do
moral good.
7. Thus god is the author and sustaining cause of all
evil and is himself evil, that is omni-malevolent,
rather than as claimed, omni-benevolent.
8. Since dogmatically, god is supposedly omni-benevolent
rather than omni-malevolent, this is obviously not
acceptable. Allowing god to make the rules makes
him overtly evil.
9. God therefore does not make the rules, the laws or
the logic of the Universe.
10. God is said to be the most powerful thing that can
be imagined, the greatest thing that can exist.
But if god does not make the laws and rules and logic
of the Universe, and cannot change them at whim,
then the Universe with its rules and laws and logic
are more powerful than god, and this dogmatic claim
is obviously not true.
11. This claim is used as a basis of ontological claims
such as Anselm's ontological proof and these type of
ontological proofs are all thus falsified.
12. God is supposedly omnipotent. But if he is limited
by the Universe with its rules and laws and logic,
obviously he is not omnipotent at all. This dogmatic
claim cannot be saved unless you accept a god that
is omni-malevolent as a basic dogma.
13. God is dogmatically claimed to have been the creator
of the Universe, of all that is. But if god does not
make the laws and rules and logic of the Universe,
they must be beyond him, outside him, and must either
preceed him or parallel god's existance, he cannot
have created it thusly, so the dogma that god created
all is false also.
14. One dodge here might be to claim god created the
Universe in the manner that limits him, but god,
being omniscient, superintelligent and omnibenevolent
would have known that by creating such a Universe, he
was creating a Universe tht contained evil only because
he chose to create a limited Universe, so we are back
to claiming god is omni-malevolent. Thus such a dodge
fails.
15. The idea of a perfect omni-everything god preceeds
Christianity, Epicurus noted the pronblem of evil
in 250 BCE. If the gods are omnibenevolent and omnipotent,
yet evil exists. The gods either cannot or will not end
evil thus must be either not omnibenevolent or
omnipotent or possible neither.
16. Yet over 2,500 years, the theological methodolgy
used to erect the hypothetical Grand God of Grand
Theology which is now dogmatic in all major religous
traditions has failed to see this god as shown above,
cannot exist as claimed.
17. Thus not only is god as so defined an impossible
and failed hypothesis, the theology methodology
used to create such a hypothetical god is a failed
methodology and its basic method, making overarching
assertions without evidence is a failed methodology.
18. What are the laws and the rules and the logic of
the Universe? And what can we say about them?
19. As far as can be noted, we do have good, basic
understandings of the laws of the Universe. Things
are made up of matter and energy, operating in a
framework of time, and dimensions, with rules known
by science, phsycs, chemistry, astronomy and other
sciences.
20. There is no room in these laws and rules of
the Universe for disembodied gods or entities
that have will and who act. Thinking beings
are made of matter and energy and subject to rules
of chemistry and physics.
21. If theology wishes to claim otherwise, theology
bears the burden of demonstrating with hard evidence
that a god or other supernatural entity can exist.
And very much has a burden to prove that the Grand
God of theological tradition has actual and real
existance.
23. The failed theological methodology of making
unsupported assertions and deriving subclaims
is not an acceptable method for doing theology,
since as demonstrated above, that has proven to
be a total failure as a methodology.
(END)
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 02:43:51 PM |
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on 17 Apr 2005 in alt.atheism, duke dropped trou, farted, whirled, then
shouted:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:16:45 -0500, Vic Sagerquist
<address@withheld.com> wrote:
There is only one that is almighty.
The existence of "god" is presupposed in the christian mind, and all
argument from their side begins with this assumption. Therefore *all*
christian argument is based on a logical fallacy. In other words,
duke, your arguments only convice other Christians, who agree with you
like a room full of bobblehead dolls.
Just like the nonexistence of God is presupposed in the atheist mind.
It's an assumption, but it's based on your lack of credible evidence. Also
the lack of evidence for all the other gods that are worshipped on earth.
There is no god.
Too bad you can't back it up.
Yeah.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
Plonked by Jason Gastrich for all eternity...
______________
As you were, I was. As I am, you will be.
--- Hunter S. Thompson
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
16 Apr 2005 09:43:08 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:58t161dv42adcqle4tsd27illovcros31a@4ax.com...
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 09:27:02 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com>
wrote:
Frankly, I really don't know. But then again, at least from the
traditional Christian perspective this is not a problem, because any
such God, being omniscient knows precisely what would convince me of
His existence. And being omnipotent, it would cost Him nothing to
provide that proof, and since he loves me He's motivated to do so.
Thinking like tw again. You overlook his objective in your deciding for
yourself basis your experiences in life. If he wanted a tw robot, he
would have
given you a push button instead of a belly button.
So if you convince me there's a god, you've made me a robot?
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
What is your reason for believing in god?
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
16 Apr 2005 11:06:36 PM |
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Denis Loubet wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:58t161dv42adcqle4tsd27illovcros31a@4ax.com...
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 09:27:02 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com>
wrote:
Frankly, I really don't know. But then again, at least from the
traditional Christian perspective this is not a problem, because any
such God, being omniscient knows precisely what would convince me of
His existence. And being omnipotent, it would cost Him nothing to
provide that proof, and since he loves me He's motivated to do so.
Thinking like tw again. You overlook his objective in your deciding
for yourself basis your experiences in life. If he wanted a tw
robot, he would have
given you a push button instead of a belly button.
So if you convince me there's a god, you've made me a robot?
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
What is your reason for believing in god?
The Jesuits say "Give me a boy before he is seven and he is ours for life."
(They said it long before we knew it had two meanings.)
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 07:43:57 PM |
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On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 04:06:36 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Denis Loubet wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:58t161dv42adcqle4tsd27illovcros31a@4ax.com...
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 09:27:02 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com>
wrote:
Frankly, I really don't know. But then again, at least from the
traditional Christian perspective this is not a problem, because any
such God, being omniscient knows precisely what would convince me of
His existence. And being omnipotent, it would cost Him nothing to
provide that proof, and since he loves me He's motivated to do so.
Thinking like tw again. You overlook his objective in your deciding
for yourself basis your experiences in life. If he wanted a tw
robot, he would have
given you a push button instead of a belly button.
So if you convince me there's a god, you've made me a robot?
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
What is your reason for believing in god?
The Jesuits say "Give me a boy before he is seven and he is ours for life."
(They said it long before we knew it had two meanings.)
Indeed.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 04:50:30 PM |
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On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 04:06:36 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Denis Loubet wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:58t161dv42adcqle4tsd27illovcros31a@4ax.com...
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 09:27:02 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com>
wrote:
Frankly, I really don't know. But then again, at least from the
traditional Christian perspective this is not a problem, because any
such God, being omniscient knows precisely what would convince me of
His existence. And being omnipotent, it would cost Him nothing to
provide that proof, and since he loves me He's motivated to do so.
Thinking like tw again. You overlook his objective in your deciding
for yourself basis your experiences in life. If he wanted a tw
robot, he would have
given you a push button instead of a belly button.
So if you convince me there's a god, you've made me a robot?
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
What is your reason for believing in god?
The Jesuits say "Give me a boy before he is seven and he is ours for life."
(They said it long before we knew it had two meanings.)
I wonder if it is true, that there has never been a reported case constipation,
among Jesuit novices?
--
Puck Greenman
The spelling Like any opinion stated here
is purely my own
#162 BAAWA Knight.
Plonked by Rob Duncan
Na bister 500,000
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
18 Apr 2005 05:20:33 PM |
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On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:50:30 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey>
wrote:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 04:06:36 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Denis Loubet wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:58t161dv42adcqle4tsd27illovcros31a@4ax.com...
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 09:27:02 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com>
wrote:
Frankly, I really don't know. But then again, at least from the
traditional Christian perspective this is not a problem, because any
such God, being omniscient knows precisely what would convince me of
His existence. And being omnipotent, it would cost Him nothing to
provide that proof, and since he loves me He's motivated to do so.
Thinking like tw again. You overlook his objective in your deciding
for yourself basis your experiences in life. If he wanted a tw
robot, he would have
given you a push button instead of a belly button.
So if you convince me there's a god, you've made me a robot?
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
What is your reason for believing in god?
The Jesuits say "Give me a boy before he is seven and he is ours for life."
(They said it long before we knew it had two meanings.)
I wonder if it is true, that there has never been a reported case constipation,
among Jesuit novices?
It comes from being well drilled.....
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 09:05:43 AM |
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On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:43:08 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:
Thinking like tw again. You overlook his objective in your deciding for
yourself basis your experiences in life. If he wanted a tw robot, he
would have
given you a push button instead of a belly button.
So if you convince me there's a god, you've made me a robot?
Gosh, where did you get that from? Very amateurish, loubert.
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
What is your reason for believing in god?
Evidence.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 12:59:45 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:86r461p2g06230m43ielu605f7frkhrsfu@4ax.com...
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:43:08 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:
Thinking like tw again. You overlook his objective in your deciding for
yourself basis your experiences in life. If he wanted a tw robot, he
would have
given you a push button instead of a belly button.
So if you convince me there's a god, you've made me a robot?
Gosh, where did you get that from? Very amateurish, loubert.
Well, you seem to be saying that if proof of god's existence is presented,
then that would make someone a robot. I can only imagine that you think
proof would obviate the need for faith, and that undeniable proof would be a
bludgeon that would force one to believe and thus bypass free will.
You're free to correct me if I'm wrong about what you believe, but that's
the only way I can interpret what you've said. I admit I had trouble parsing
your sentence about the objectives of the god character, perhaps the
misunderstanding lies there?
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
What is your reason for believing in god?
Evidence.
Isn't that what you said made robots?
Besides, supposedly Adam and Eve had undeniable proof of the god's
existence. Does that mean they were robots?
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
16 Apr 2005 04:07:43 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 09:27:02 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
Frankly, I really don't know. But then again, at least from the
traditional Christian perspective this is not a problem, because any
such God, being omniscient knows precisely what would convince me of
His existence. And being omnipotent, it would cost Him nothing to
provide that proof, and since he loves me He's motivated to do so.
Thinking like tw again. You overlook his objective in your deciding
for yourself basis your experiences in life. If he wanted a tw
robot, he would have given you a push button instead of a belly
button.
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
The bible relates that Adam and Eve were in the presence of this god and
made a wrong decision. It also tells a story of some angels deciding not be
in the presence of this god so clearly even its presence does not have
enough impact to override free will.
Why should it be any different today?
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 08:53:31 AM |
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On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:07:43 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God. Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
The bible relates that Adam and Eve were in the presence of this god and
made a wrong decision. It also tells a story of some angels deciding not be
in the presence of this god so clearly even its presence does not have
enough impact to override free will.
Why should it be any different today?
That's why God gave us free will.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 01:45:06 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:07:43 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God. Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
The bible relates that Adam and Eve were in the presence of this god
and made a wrong decision. It also tells a story of some angels
deciding not be in the presence of this god so clearly even its
presence does not have enough impact to override free will.
Why should it be any different today?
That's why God gave us free will.
A non answer. How would a revelation that would convince anybody that this
god of yours was real invalidate free will.
Why am I asking this again of Earl the excommunicated?
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 07:01:17 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:07:43 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God. Neat, eh?
Very amateurish.
The bible relates that Adam and Eve were in the presence of this god and
made a wrong decision. It also tells a story of some angels deciding not
be
in the presence of this god so clearly even its presence does not have
enough impact to override free will.
Why should it be any different today?
That's why God gave us free will.
Sighhhhhhhh. How many times will you lie faced with the bible that says
otherwise?
Romans 8 - 9. Al is predetermined.
You don't have any free will.
8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to
them who are the called according to his purpose.
8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the
image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called,
them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
....
11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the
election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
11:8
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes
that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this
day.
Some he elects, some he blinds. No free wil here.
You are so stupid. Uneducatable. Lazy.
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
17 Apr 2005 01:49:59 AM |
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Therion Ware wrote:
On 16 Apr 2005 00:23:42 -0700 in alt.atheism,
sashay_biatch@hotmail.com (sashay_biatch@hotmail.com) said, directing
the reply to alt.atheism
I think the thing I would need is some sort of objective proof
(obviously not happening any time soon). Would any atheists change
belief based on a personal incident?
Frankly, I really don't know. But then again, at least from the
traditional Christian perspective this is not a problem, because any
such God, being omniscient knows precisely what would convince me of
His existence. And being omnipotent, it would cost Him nothing to
provide that proof, and since he loves me He's motivated to do so.
Since he doesn't, I conclude there's no such God.
Neat, eh?
Quite good actually.
I may steal this one.
Of course Romans 11:7-10 says god makes some skeptics.
Hard to answer why he'd do that if he's omnibenevolent.
11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the
election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
11:8
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes
that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this
day.
11:9
And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a
stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
11:10
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back
alway.
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Andrsib" |
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| Title: Re: What would it take to make you believe in a god? |
16 Apr 2005 09:11:25 PM |
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<sashay_biatch@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1113636222.151615.206650@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
I think the thing I would need is some sort of objective proof
(obviously not happening any time soon). Would any atheists change
belief based on a personal incident?
I think that if an "objective proof" for God is found, then it will
effectively kill the faith, since faith is belief without, or in spite of,
any "objective proof". Once God is proven, He becomes a matter of science,
not faith. I personally agree with both St. Thomas Aquinas and
Kierkegaard-type "fideists" on this matter. If the science and faith are
"non-overlapping magisteria", then the same thing cannot be both an article
of science and an article of faith.
Interestingly enough, the same line of reasoning leads to another
conclusion: If there is an objective proof that there is no God, then the
faith still remains, since it can exist in spite of any objective evidence.
So, if I looked for a faith, I'd better consider some sort of subjective
proof instead. Like "living a fairy tale helps avoid many psycological
problems of the real life". Unfortunately, there is a dark side of any fairy
tales: they are all limited (at least I could not find any that were not),
while the real life is full of surprises all along. Well, I just like
surprises better.
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