| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Fredric L. Rice" |
| Date: |
29 May 2004 01:51:07 AM |
| Object: |
What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
Gods the irony. A bunch of Christian murderers invade an innocent
Islamic country and slaughter their children in their beds, using
cluster munitions to blow their little limbs off and along comes
Christianity Today to pretend they're upset with fellow Christians
rapeing, torturing, and killing. As if the invasion of Iraq
wasn't just another chapter in Christianity's long and bloody
history of atrocities.
-=-
I Was in Prison and You Abused Me
What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib?
By Steven Gertz
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/121/53.0.html
More than a week after the news broke on the Abu Ghraib prison abuses,
Christianity Today's Weblog set out to gauge the Christian reaction. Their
findings? Pretty disappointing. Few high-visibility American Christians
were speaking out against the abuses, and even these diverged along
different paths. While Sojourners magazine demanded the resignation of
Rumsfeld for allowing such war crimes to continue under his command, World
magazine was quick to defend Rumsfeld, labeling these actions the "perverse
acts of a few." Other leaders, such as Chuck Colson and Gary Bauer called
for the vindication of America's military through the swift punishment of
the "bad apples" involved.
Now it's become clear that at least one of these infamous "bad apples" was
apparently a Christian. Spec. John Darby, the soldier who reportedly
confronted Spec. Charles A. Graner, the ringleader of Abu Ghraib, claims
that Graner told him, "The Christian in me says it's wrong, but the
correction officer in me says, 'I love to make a grown man ***** himself.' "
Other accounts suggest that guards abused prisoners out of hostility toward
Islam-one soldier reportedly asked a prisoner if he believed in anything,
and when the man responded that he believed in Allah, the guard replied, "I
believe in torture, and I will torture you."
For anyone sensitive to Muslim-Christian relations, this is a catastrophe.
Dr. Akbar Ahmed of the American University noted Osama bin Laden couldn't
have dreamed up a better recruiting advertisement than the photo of Lynndie
England, Spec. Graner's lover, dragging a prisoner around by a chain. Any
Islamic militant wishing to connect Christianity with the decadence of
America-many Muslims overseas continue to call America a "Christian"
country-would appear to have a smoking gun. And the Qu'ran has some harsh
words for those who "fight against God and His Messenger"-"they shall be
slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall alternately be
struck off, or they shall be banished from the land . (Sura 5:37)."
All the more reason for a cogent Christian response to what transpired at
Abu Ghraib. But what exactly should that look like? Let's look at the
writings of Christians past for some answers.
What Would Augustine Say?
The New Testament and the ante-Nicene fathers give Christians no direct
guidance on treating prisoners of war. Before Constantine, Christians
weren't really in a position to make such decisions.
It's not until after Constantine that theologians and church leaders begin
to offer some answers. Famous for his just war theory, Augustine of Hippo
was perhaps the first to articulate how Christians should treat their
enemies on the battleground:
"Those whom we have to punish with a kindly severity, it is necessary to
handle in many ways against their will. For when we are stripping a man of
the lawlessness of sin, it is good for him to be vanquished, since nothing
is more hopeless than the happiness of sinners, whence arises a guilty
impunity, and an evil will, like an internal enemy." (Ep. Ad Marcellin.
cxxxviii)
This doesn't directly address prisoners of war. But when we read
Augustine's discussion of the Christian's purpose in war, we get some
hints:
"We do not seek peace in order to be at war, but we go to war that we may
have peace. Be peaceful, therefore, in warring, so that you may vanquish
those whom you war against, and bring them to the prosperity of peace."
(Ep. ad Bonif. clxxxix)
Roman Catholics inherited Augustine's views on just war, and the guidelines
he laid down served the Church and Christian princes through numerous wars.
The Reformers, in part, accepted Augustine's rationale, as the Lutheran
Augsburg Confession states:
"It is taught among us that all government in the world and all established
rule and laws were instituted and ordained by God for the sake of good
order, and that Christians may .. punish evildoers with the sword, engage
in just wars, serve as soldiers, etc."
Yet note how the article ends: "But when commands of the civil authority
cannot be obeyed without sin, we must obey God rather than men (Acts
5:29)."
So it would seem that American soldiers, Graner included, at Abu Ghraib
failed on at least two accounts-working counter to the purpose of peace,
and if some reports are true, failing to disobey orders that no Christian
could in good conscience follow.
Protesting the Abuse of Power
How, then, should Christians, respond to abuses of power? A near
contemporary of Augustine, Patrick of Ireland wrote a letter around 460
rebuking the Christian king Coroticus for slaughtering and enslaving new
converts to the faith. "I know not what I should the rather mourn: whether
those who are slain, or those who are captured, or those whom the devil
grievously ensnared (meaning the captors themselves)." He has harsh words
for Coroticus and his court, who by selling his captives to barbarian
Picts, "hand over the members of Christ as it were to a brothel. What
manner of hope in God have you? .. God will judge; for it is written, 'Not
only those who commit evil, but those that consent with them shall be
damned.'"
The parallel with Abu Ghraib is not exact here. But we can take note of
Patrick's outrage and grief. Coroticus' captives were enslaved, and the
women-many of whom had consecrated themselves as virgins-used for the
pleasure of barbarian chieftains. Pictures of rape and dehumanizing
experiments of a sexual nature reportedly done by professing "Christians"
should likewise provoke deep anger and sadness among us-not only for the
injustice of the crimes but for the damage done to Christ's name.
Another example of protest comes from a Christian tradition opposed to war
altogether. The Schleitheim Confession (1527), Anabaptists' first and
formative statement on war, precludes the possibility that Christians can
engage in war with a good conscience. Jesus "forbids the violence of the
sword when He says: 'the princes of this world lord it over them, etc., but
among you it shall not be so.' " How then, should Christians resist evil?
"The worldly are armed with steel and iron, but Christians are armed with
the armor of God, with truth, righteousness, peace, faith, salvation, and
with the Word of God."
In this Christian tradition, then, Christians will not take prisoners of
war, for Christians will not fight. But that does not mean Christians
cannot actively work to right evils that have been done either in Christ's
name or outside it. This, then, is the motivation for the Christian
Peacemaker Teams' presence in Iraq, calling commanders of military bases to
account for injustice done to prisoners, attempting to help Iraqis gain
access to family and friends imprisoned in Abu Ghraib, and urging police to
cajole Army officers into acting on the abuses. It is also the bedrock for
the kind of compassion shown by men like Henry Dunant who founded the
International Red Cross and inspired the first Geneva Conventions to
protect the rights of prisoners of war.
Bringing Abu Ghraib Close to Home
It is not enough to write off the abuses at Abu Ghraib as the work of a few
"bad apples." An experiment done by Wheaton College students nearly 20
years ago now makes for a revealing look at what prison does to the best of
us. On March 19, 1985, the college's sociology department obtained use of
an abandoned prison for 6 hours, and 40 students participated in a mock
prison experience-10 acting as guards and 30 as prisoners. The result? In
the words of one student, "After perhaps an hour, Wheaton students who were
normally respectable and upright, were making some very crude comments,
burping, farting, etc., and basically acting like they were twelve and
thirteen years old. One female student became the butt of a number of crude
and generally sexually oriented comments for at least a half hour." In
later experiments conducted by the department, "guards" stripped the
students of their clothes, used handcuffs to pull their ankles behind their
backs in a painful position, and forced them to eat cold food off the
floor.
Ultimately, we must realize that what happened at Abu Ghraib is symptomatic
of a disease all of us are infected with-sin. Paul's damning words of
Romans 1 trace the fall of ordinary, "good" people into all kinds of
heinous acts: "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as
God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their
foolish hearts were darkened .. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful
desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their
bodies with one another.. Since they did not think it worthwhile to retain
the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what
ought not to be done."
Let's rightly react with revulsion when we see these pictures, and call for
an accounting for the crimes committed. But let's also recognize the evil
nature in ourselves, and out of this recognition, cheer on the work of
Christian Peacemaker Teams and others seeking to counter the evil done by
Christians who have failed to live up to their calling. May God have mercy
on us and the guards and prisoners of Abu Ghraib.
---
Scientology tries to disrupt terrorist attacks relief efforts: http://www.cosvm.org/
George W. Bush's latest policy: "No Child Left Untortured Act."
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| User: "Praetorian" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
29 May 2004 07:46:31 PM |
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"Fredric L. Rice" <REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote
As if the invasion of Iraq
wasn't just another chapter in Christianity's long and bloody
history of atrocities.
============================================
But, not a single syllable about the atrocities that these islamic animals
performed upon absolutely innocent persons. Of course, the few bad
apples are getting all the press. Not one syllable about the 99.99%
of all the remaining decent and honorable military personnel who are
serving their duties according to righteous standards. Make no mistake,
it isn't just a few bad-apple muslims making all the rest look bad; it is
all arabs who are guilty. All, I say ... ALL. Note the difference; I did
not say Islam or all Muslims. I said arabs ... all of them. There is a
tremendous difference. Learn what that difference is. All arabs who are
not able to kill Americans for themselves, are still supporting and
defending the ones who do so. It is the arabs! The arabs! When will
you idiots ever see the light? It is the arabs! Of course, it is not Islam;
it is the arabs!!!! Wake up and read all about it. The end will come when
ALL arabs have been eliminated.
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| User: "Fredric L. Rice" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
30 May 2004 11:25:05 AM |
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"Praetorian" <praetorian.@insightbb.com> wrote:
"Fredric L. Rice" <REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote
As if the invasion of Iraq
wasn't just another chapter in Christianity's long and bloody
history of atrocities.
But, not a single syllable about the atrocities that these
islamic animals performed upon absolutely innocent persons.
Some 90% of the "Islamic animals" in Bush's prisons are not guilty of
anything; they're picked up, tortured for information, and then
eventually let go -- those who survive.
Of course, the few bad apples are getting all the press.
Here you are labeling "those Islamic animals" and yet when it comes
to white Christian monsters you complain it's unfair to paint them
all with the same brush you're using on "Islamic Animals."
Here's a clue: Bush invaded Iraq. Until then the Iraqi people were
not causing anyone harm.
---
Scientology tries to disrupt terrorist attacks relief efforts: http://www.cosvm.org/
George W. Bush's latest policy: "No Child Left Untortured Act."
.
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| User: "Theo Brady Bunch" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
30 May 2004 01:19:42 PM |
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"Fredric L. Rice" <REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote in message
news:10bk2u8nai9fvfa@corp.supernews.com...
"Praetorian" <praetorian.@insightbb.com> wrote:
"Fredric L. Rice" <REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote
As if the invasion of Iraq
wasn't just another chapter in Christianity's long and bloody
history of atrocities.
But, not a single syllable about the atrocities that these
islamic animals performed upon absolutely innocent persons.
Some 90% of the "Islamic animals" in Bush's prisons are not guilty of
anything; they're picked up, tortured for information, and then
eventually let go -- those who survive.
Of course, the few bad apples are getting all the press.
Here you are labeling "those Islamic animals" and yet when it comes
to white Christian monsters you complain it's unfair to paint them
all with the same brush you're using on "Islamic Animals."
Here's a clue: Bush invaded Iraq. Until then the Iraqi people were
not causing anyone harm.
http://www.ucomics.com/rallcom/2004/05/29/
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| User: "SkArcher" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
29 May 2004 07:56:57 PM |
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On Sun, 30 May 2004 00:46:31 GMT, Praetorian <praetorian.@insightbb.com>
wrote:
"Fredric L. Rice" <REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote
As if the invasion of Iraq
wasn't just another chapter in Christianity's long and bloody
history of atrocities.
============================================
But, not a single syllable about the atrocities that these islamic
animals
performed upon absolutely innocent persons. Of course, the few bad
apples are getting all the press. Not one syllable about the 99.99%
of all the remaining decent and honorable military personnel who are
serving their duties according to righteous standards. Make no mistake,
it isn't just a few bad-apple muslims making all the rest look bad; it is
all arabs who are guilty. All, I say ... ALL. Note the difference; I
did
not say Islam or all Muslims. I said arabs ... all of them. There is a
tremendous difference. Learn what that difference is. All arabs who are
not able to kill Americans for themselves, are still supporting and
defending the ones who do so. It is the arabs! The arabs! When will
you idiots ever see the light? It is the arabs! Of course, it is not
Islam;
it is the arabs!!!! Wake up and read all about it. The end will come
when
ALL arabs have been eliminated.
Who are the civillians?
It is evident that the same logic you apply to those arabs who support the
guerilla forces by any form of labour is EXACTLY THE SAME LOGIC ESPOUSED
BY THOSE WHO DESTROYED THE WORLD TRADE CENTRE on the grounds that it's
existence benefitted the United States of America's cultural imperialism
and it's economic ability to do so.
When a society/country/culture is at war, it is it's economy is supporting
it's war machines ability to fight. In every way, from grain harvested in
the field to minerals mined deep underground and power produced by dams
and power stations everywhere, the entire apparat supports those forces.
Do you really want to open the can of worms that is represented by the
simple question: Who are the civillians?
--
SkArcher - A.A#590
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information
available. - Benford's law of controversy.
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| User: "Zaphod \stil prez, til nov." |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
30 May 2004 02:37:36 AM |
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"SkArcher" <SkArcher@Viking.Breakfast.Spam> wrote in message
news:opr8sfk7rmk82k4f@news.ntlworld.com...
It is evident that the same logic you apply to those arabs who support the
guerilla forces by any form of labour is EXACTLY THE SAME LOGIC ESPOUSED
BY THOSE WHO DESTROYED THE WORLD TRADE CENTRE on the grounds that it's
existence benefitted the United States of America's cultural imperialism
and it's economic ability to do so.
I'D LIKE TO ESPOUSE THE LOGIC THAT YOU TYPING IN CAPS AND YELL AT US,
DOES NOTHING TO
PROVE YOUR POINT. IT DOES PROVE THAT YOU ARE A ***** WHEN IT COMES TO
ETIQUETTE
ZAPHOD
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| User: "iDRMRSR" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
29 May 2004 08:01:22 PM |
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Whiners! The entire POINT of war is not to be the SAME as your enemy, but
exceed them in FORCE. Once you have risen to the point of being the SAME as
them, you've come even with them and are well on your way to winning!
I slam, you slam, we all slam for ISLAM.
[*]
-----
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| User: "Zaphod \stil prez, til nov." |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
30 May 2004 02:42:27 AM |
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"iDRMRSR" <idrmrsr@subgenius.com> wrote in message
news:bLmdnfaIjrL_ryTdRVn-sA@giganews.com...
Whiners! The entire POINT of war is not to be the SAME as your enemy, but
exceed them in FORCE. Once you have risen to the point of being the SAME
as
them, you've come even with them and are well on your way to winning!
I slam, you slam, we all slam for ISLAM.
Yah, Yah, Yah, except were not dealing with an enemy here are we? We are
dealing with
a defeated people who have been getting the ***** kicked out of them for 20+
years. Oh
yah I forgot these poor broken people are so vicious that we have to sink
below the
level of the former dictator.
Yup what a strong, evil and ruthless enemy we have there.
I'm starting to think that they were better off with Sadam, at least they
had order, lights and
running water while they were getting killed off.
Fighting for peace is a little like Fucking for Chastity
Zaphod
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| User: "Uncle Dollar Bill" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
29 May 2004 11:07:56 PM |
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In alt.atheism on Sat, 29 May 2004 21:01:22 -0400, "iDRMRSR"
<idrmrsr@subgenius.com> wrote:
Whiners! The entire POINT of war is not to be the SAME as your enemy, but
exceed them in FORCE.
The point of war is either to defend yourself against a perceived
enemy or else to bend them to your will. A _strategy_ of war is to
exceed your enemy in force, preferrably with a few superior
decision-making skills mixed in.
Once you have risen to the point of being the SAME as
them, you've come even with them and are well on your way to winning!
So once you're the same as them, you're better than them? I think you
might want to re-phrase that, though I guess it's no big deal if you
don't. :-#
--
L8r,
Uncle Dollar Bill
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| User: "Zaphod \stil prez, til nov." |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
30 May 2004 02:55:49 AM |
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"Uncle Dollar Bill" <UncleDollarBill@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:40ba5d1d.21617005@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...
The point of war is either to defend yourself against a perceived
enemy or else to bend them to your will. A _strategy_ of war is to
exceed your enemy in force, preferrably with a few superior
decision-making skills mixed in.
Oh that's all well and fine and sounds all dandy and stuff.
Yet you seem to think that using force in fighting a well trained
army is the same as beating on individual people.
I guess to you it would be the like me asking you if I could borrow
a dollar, all the while I have an armor division behind me and a .45 up your
*****.
Yup, I see nothing wrong with that I like your thinking Bill
We aren't talking about using superior force against an opposing force or
army.
We are talking about the systematic torture of innocent civilians.
Your logic and reason suck. Wait that wasn't logic and reasoning, it was
plain stupid thinking.
Zaphod
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| User: "Uncle Dollar Bill" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
30 May 2004 06:02:10 AM |
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In alt.atheism on Sun, 30 May 2004 02:55:49 -0500, "Zaphod \"stil
prez, til nov.\"" <zaphodB@safe-mail.net> wrote:
"Uncle Dollar Bill" <UncleDollarBill@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:40ba5d1d.21617005@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...
The point of war is either to defend yourself against a perceived
enemy or else to bend them to your will. A _strategy_ of war is to
exceed your enemy in force, preferrably with a few superior
decision-making skills mixed in.
Oh that's all well and fine and sounds all dandy and stuff.
Yet you seem to think that using force in fighting a well trained
army is the same as beating on individual people.
I guess to you it would be the like me asking you if I could borrow
a dollar, all the while I have an armor division behind me and a .45 up your
*****.
Yup, I see nothing wrong with that I like your thinking Bill
We aren't talking about using superior force against an opposing force or
army.
We are talking about the systematic torture of innocent civilians.
Your logic and reason suck. Wait that wasn't logic and reasoning, it was
plain stupid thinking.
Really? Ummm... Where does anything you say above conflict with
anything I say above that? :-? Perhaps I have been misunderstood,
it's happened before, but I actually agree with you in this post. I
didn't address the issue of torturing innocent civilians, I was not
speaking about a specific thing. It was a generality about "war", and
I still see nothing wrong in what I said.
--
L8r,
Uncle Dollar Bill
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| User: "Zaphod \stil prez, til nov." |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
30 May 2004 03:24:19 AM |
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"Uncle Dollar Bill" <UncleDollarBill@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:40d2bea1.46585082@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...
In alt.atheism on Sun, 30 May 2004 02:55:49 -0500, "Zaphod \"stil
prez, til nov.\"" <zaphodB@safe-mail.net> wrote:
"Uncle Dollar Bill" <UncleDollarBill@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:40ba5d1d.21617005@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...
The point of war is either to defend yourself against a perceived
enemy or else to bend them to your will. A _strategy_ of war is to
exceed your enemy in force, preferrably with a few superior
decision-making skills mixed in.
Oh that's all well and fine and sounds all dandy and stuff.
Yet you seem to think that using force in fighting a well trained
army is the same as beating on individual people.
I guess to you it would be the like me asking you if I could borrow
a dollar, all the while I have an armor division behind me and a .45 up
your
*****.
Yup, I see nothing wrong with that I like your thinking Bill
We aren't talking about using superior force against an opposing force or
army.
We are talking about the systematic torture of innocent civilians.
Your logic and reason suck. Wait that wasn't logic and reasoning, it was
plain stupid thinking.
Really? Ummm... Where does anything you say above conflict with
anything I say above that? :-? Perhaps I have been misunderstood,
it's happened before, but I actually agree with you in this post. I
didn't address the issue of torturing innocent civilians, I was not
speaking about a specific thing. It was a generality about "war", and
I still see nothing wrong in what I said.
--
L8r,
Uncle Dollar Bill
Perhaps I jumped the gun. If all your statements were directed at the
concept of wars in
general, then I would agree with you sir. If you were using the concepts to
justify
the use of torture on civilians then I stick by what I say. If I have
misunderstood
you the error is mine and I apologize.
While not exactly the same, that is why we lost the war over in south east
Asia.
They were simply a more craftier, determined and ruthless foe.
Oh, Plus we totally under estimated them and their capacity.
Oh and it would have helped if we had know that most of the fuckers had
gone under ground and that we were really fighting well trained,
determined human gophers.
Missed the call on that one for sure.
Zaphod
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| User: "Uncle Dollar Bill" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
30 May 2004 07:38:52 AM |
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In alt.atheism on Sun, 30 May 2004 03:24:19 -0500, "Zaphod \"stil
prez, til nov.\"" <zaphodB@safe-mail.net> wrote:
"Uncle Dollar Bill" <UncleDollarBill@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:40d2bea1.46585082@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...
<snip>
Really? Ummm... Where does anything you say above conflict with
anything I say above that? :-? Perhaps I have been misunderstood,
it's happened before, but I actually agree with you in this post. I
didn't address the issue of torturing innocent civilians, I was not
speaking about a specific thing. It was a generality about "war", and
I still see nothing wrong in what I said.
--
L8r,
Uncle Dollar Bill
Perhaps I jumped the gun. If all your statements were directed at the
concept of wars in
general, then I would agree with you sir. If you were using the concepts to
justify
the use of torture on civilians then I stick by what I say. If I have
misunderstood
you the error is mine and I apologize.
Ah, okay, I see what happened. :-) I'll state plainly that I most
definitely do _not_ support the torture of civilians for any reason.
The trouble comes in when you're trying to figure out who is or isn't
"only" a civillian. :-/ When you can't tell them apart... It gets a
bit difficult.
I don't technically support the use of torture on combat soldiers,
either. If use of force is to be applied - and I think it's essential
to do so in some cases - I'd be more in favor of the use of "truth
serums" and such, if any can be made that are known to be reliable.
Perhaps with some kind of "confidentiality clause" that would protect
the individual from prosecution should they reveal illegal activities
unrelated to the war (of course in reality, I suppose we both know how
that would work itself out - nothing's perfect <sigh>). If the
individual is really an innocent, that would come out. They might end
up saying some pretty embarassing things, but at least they'd be
bodily in tact. I would be agreeable to that kind of thing in the
U.S. itself were the U.S. & Iraq's roles reversed. I don't see
torture as being necessary anywhere.
While not exactly the same, that is why we lost the war over in south east
Asia. They were simply a more craftier, determined and ruthless foe.
Oh, Plus we totally under estimated them and their capacity.
Oh and it would have helped if we had know that most of the fuckers had
gone under ground and that we were really fighting well trained,
determined human gophers.
Missed the call on that one for sure.
I hear ya', dude. War is Hell, and Hell is War. To quote Rodney
King, "Can't we all just get along?" ;-)
--
L8r,
Uncle Dollar Bill
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| User: "Zaphod \stil prez, til nov." |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
30 May 2004 05:07:54 AM |
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"Uncle Dollar Bill" <UncleDollarBill@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:40d4c890.49128315@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...
I don't technically support the use of torture on combat soldiers,
either. If use of force is to be applied - and I think it's essential
to do so in some cases - I'd be more in favor of the use of "truth
serums" and such, if any can be made that are known to be reliable.
In general no but if soldiers lives are in danger or say in the case of a
police detective, if someone has to put a beating on someone who they are
just real sure is guilty, in order to save lifes or to protect people then
I'm just walking out of the room while they whale on however at get what
they need.
It is only when the whole thing gets systemized and routine and people who
shouldn't get the screws put to them and yet are is when we have a real
problem.
Yes fighting for peace is like fucking for chastity
There are times however perhaps in the case of true fascist, if they cut off
an arm, we should cut off a head and stick it
on a pole, they send a suicide bomber against us, when we blow up there
village. I know this sounds all horrible
and ***** but I think that war is the most desperate and foul act a country
should ever engage in but if you have
to pull that trigger, then you had better not quit shooting until every last
one of them is dead. And yes I believe
that we have to play dirty, nastier and fouler then any enemy we face.
But what do I know, I think that dropping the bomb was a good thing.
You are very right it is getting very hard to tell the difference between
the soldiers and civilians Regardless of the differences, we can't fight a
politically correct war. Example:
If a bunch or creeps have so little regard for their mosques that they will
hide in them and sniper out of
them then guess what? The building becomes a smoking ruin.
And as tacky as it sounds if the men want to hide behind women and children
and shoot at us then as disgusting as it
is, then it's time we mow to lot of them. I never want to see war but if it
has to happen to balance out
the power structure of things then we need to do any and every *****
thing we can to win it.
We are getting very good at dropping bombs on brown people so they had
better watch it, I just wish we would publish
a little book on American policies "These are the things that if you do
them, we will drop bombs on you"
then we stick to what we say were going to do and the we follow the rules.
Rule 1. If any country engages in the act of genocide and starts the whole
sale slaughter of there or another people
then we America reserves the right to come in and slap the ***** out of you
and drop more bombs then you have ever fucking seen.
Sorry, I not only digressed, I wondered off into wonderland there. Any way
glad we cleared up what you were saying and my error I was liking what you
were saying until I came to think that you were somehow using this argument
as rationalizing for the events art Abu Ghraib.
Sleep well.
Zaphod
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| User: "Joe Cosby http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
30 May 2004 04:04:35 AM |
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On Sun, 30 May 2004 03:24:19 -0500, "Zaphod \"stil prez, til nov.\""
<zaphodB@safe-mail.net> wrote:
Perhaps I jumped the gun. If all your statements were directed at the
concept of wars in
general, then I would agree with you sir. If you were using the concepts to
justify
the use of torture on civilians then I stick by what I say.
There are no civilians.
Do you vote? Do you refuse to vote? Do you pay taxes? Do you refuse
to pay taxes?
If so, you are not a civilian.
--
Joe Cosby
http://joecosby.com/
Jetzt bin ich leicht,
jetzt fliege ich,
jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir,
jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich.
~Nietzsche
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| User: "Artemia Salina" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
30 May 2004 04:00:38 AM |
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On Sun, 30 May 2004 02:55:49 -0500, Zaphod "stil prez, til nov." wrote:
We are talking about the systematic torture of innocent civilians.
Not true! If they were innocent civilians then we wouldn't be torturing them!
DUH!
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| User: "Fredric L. Rice" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
30 May 2004 11:30:43 AM |
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Artemia Salina <y2k@sheayright.com> wrote:
On Sun, 30 May 2004 02:55:49 -0500, Zaphod "stil prez, til nov." wrote:
We are talking about the systematic torture of innocent civilians.
Not true! If they were innocent civilians then we wouldn't be torturing them!
Except that _we_ aren't tortureing them: Bush/Cheney is. Except that
even the fascist regime admits that 90% of the victims are innocent;
they're tortured for whatever information they may have and then the
survivors are released.
---
Scientology tries to disrupt terrorist attacks relief efforts: http://www.cosvm.org/
George W. Bush's latest policy: "No Child Left Untortured Act."
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| User: "Fredric L. Rice" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
30 May 2004 11:28:42 AM |
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(Uncle Dollar Bill) wrote:
In alt.atheism on Sat, 29 May 2004 21:01:22 -0400, "iDRMRSR"
<idrmrsr@subgenius.com> wrote:
Whiners! The entire POINT of war is not to be the SAME as your enemy, but
exceed them in FORCE.
The point of war is either to defend yourself against a perceived
enemy or else to bend them to your will. A _strategy_ of war is to
exceed your enemy in force, preferrably with a few superior
decision-making skills mixed in.
The point of most wars is to seize another country's marketable
resources or to stop another country from exploiting resources the
instigator wants to exploit.
Cheney went one further: He's diverting American tax payers' taxes
to his corporate partners under the guise of "rebuilding Iraq" while
at the same time seizing the world's second largest stash of oil.
---
Scientology tries to disrupt terrorist attacks relief efforts: http://www.cosvm.org/
George W. Bush's latest policy: "No Child Left Untortured Act."
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| User: "glassgnost" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
30 May 2004 12:44:43 AM |
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Uncle Dollar Bill wrote:
In alt.atheism on Sat, 29 May 2004 21:01:22 -0400, "iDRMRSR"
<idrmrsr@subgenius.com> wrote:
Once you have risen to the point of being the SAME as
them, you've come even with them and are well on your way to winning!
So once you're the same as them, you're better than them? I think you
might want to re-phrase that, though I guess it's no big deal if you
don't. :-#
This is as good a reflection on the issues I see as I could write
personally:
http://www.lyricsdepot.com/black-sabbath/heaven-hell.html
Beyond that...
The only "evil" I see here is people being mesmerized into having warm
fuzzy feelings about fighting and dying for the right to trade their
lives away one hour at a time for a shitty place to live and a few
scraps of food. On both "sides".
--
Mystical RevvedErrand Doktor glassnost
the furious, mysterious and oh so serious
Seer of the r-r-r-Reeking Taco of Destiny
"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're
inside, you look around and what do you see? Businessmen, Teachers,
Lawyers, Carpenters...the very minds of the people we're trying to save.
But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that
makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are
not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so innerred, so
hopelessly dependent on the system that they will that they will fight
to protect it". -- The Matrix (1999)
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| User: "Candlemoth" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
30 May 2004 02:58:06 AM |
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iDRMRSR wrote:
Whiners! The entire POINT of war is not to be the SAME as your enemy, but
exceed them in FORCE. Once you have risen to the point of being the SAME as
them, you've come even with them and are well on your way to winning!
I slam, you slam, we all slam for ISLAM.
[*]
-----
Force is good! But if you can convince him you're nastier than he, then
you create doubt. Doubt is good! Thus the Rangers and Green Berets. I
won't mention that bunch stationed down in Florida that fly in old
Marine helicopters that are capable of doing miracles in flight.
Something about the navy and some aquatic animal.
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| User: "Ankara" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
29 May 2004 06:15:49 AM |
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"Fredric L. Rice" said silly things:
Gods the irony. A bunch of Christian murderers invade an innocent
Islamic country ...
Gonna just go ahead and stop you right there....
the funniest thing I EVER see in dealing with humans
is their belief that someone ELSE is more evil than they are.
us...them....them...us....even the people who demand that
we "stop the fighting" are following this tagline of *****....
(our US is better than their THEM )
your above statement follows this perfectly (congrats on being
one of the USUAL primates) You might say..."wait I am
an American saying this....I am against THEM thats doing that!!"
Nice try... but it's still the same..
Would you *kill* THEM...if you could...
whoever *THEM* is today?? (even when it's US?)
No of course not....you are a civilized primate....
Instead you will just *think* less of THEM
who are so much LESS than you are....
When the call comes to condemn 'them'
your voice will be heard, wont it....rallying against
this latest 'THEM'
Do you follow me this far?
No?
I see all of history, as a padded room full of
loons covered in their own poo.... You open the
door...and looks of shame cross their faces
they quickly try to hide the ***** in their hands...
and then in mighty voices they cry out..
'IT WAS THEM.....THEM...THAT STARTED IT!!"
It WAS too...It WAS them that started it.....They
have all the jusitification in the world....anyone can
see that...it was THEM!!
After this *rapture* everyone usually feels much better
about the ***** they were trying to hide, in moving the blame
to where it 'belongs' somehow makes everything "right"
(not to late to mention -I guess- that last week it was US)
'you see ***** in your brothers eye
yet fail to notice the steamer on your own face
hypocrite... first remove the turd from your face
then you will see clearly how to remove the stain
from you brothers eye...'
-FightingJesus (the other one)
Hope this helps
Ankara
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| User: "polar bear" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
30 May 2004 12:50:13 PM |
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In article <Jh_tc.2026$g%.773@lakeread04>, "Ankara"
<uh-huh@somewhere.com> wrote:
"Fredric L. Rice" said silly things:
Gods the irony. A bunch of Christian murderers invade an innocent
Islamic country ...
Gonna just go ahead and stop you right there....
the funniest thing I EVER see in dealing with humans
is their belief that someone ELSE is more evil than they are.
us...them....them...us....even the people who demand that
we "stop the fighting" are following this tagline of *****....
(our US is better than their THEM )
your above statement follows this perfectly (congrats on being
one of the USUAL primates) You might say..."wait I am
an American saying this....I am against THEM thats doing that!!"
Nice try... but it's still the same..
Would you *kill* THEM...if you could...
whoever *THEM* is today?? (even when it's US?)
No of course not....you are a civilized primate....
Instead you will just *think* less of THEM
who are so much LESS than you are....
When the call comes to condemn 'them'
your voice will be heard, wont it....rallying against
this latest 'THEM'
Do you follow me this far?
No?
I see all of history, as a padded room full of
loons covered in their own poo.... You open the
door...and looks of shame cross their faces
they quickly try to hide the ***** in their hands...
and then in mighty voices they cry out..
'IT WAS THEM.....THEM...THAT STARTED IT!!"
It WAS too...It WAS them that started it.....They
have all the jusitification in the world....anyone can
see that...it was THEM!!
After this *rapture* everyone usually feels much better
about the ***** they were trying to hide, in moving the blame
to where it 'belongs' somehow makes everything "right"
(not to late to mention -I guess- that last week it was US)
'you see ***** in your brothers eye
yet fail to notice the steamer on your own face
hypocrite... first remove the turd from your face
then you will see clearly how to remove the stain
from you brothers eye...'
-FightingJesus (the other one)
Hope this helps
Ankara
Obviously you are one of THEM.
pb
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| User: "SMChristenson" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
29 May 2004 08:09:30 AM |
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On Sat, 29 May 2004 07:15:49 -0400, Ankara wrote:
"Fredric L. Rice" said silly things:
Gods the irony. A bunch of Christian murderers invade an innocent
Islamic country ...
Gonna just go ahead and stop you right there.... the funniest thing I
EVER see in dealing with humans is their belief that someone ELSE is
more evil than they are.
True. Have you read Al Gore's speech? A little too long on detail to be
one of history's finest, but excellent. The point is that we _should_
have done better. Not because we are better. Not that "Jesus" has
anything to do with it. But because our founding fathers realized there
is good and evil in everyone and established a set of dynamic checks and
balances to maintain a rule of law. That is what has been usurped from
the very top in this administration.
And not just any rule of law. Nazi Germany had laws. Apartheid South
Africa had laws. We have the Declaration of Independence and Constitution
to guide our law. Those are guiding principles this administration
doesn't seem to respect either.
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| User: "Rev. 11D Meow!" |
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| Title: Re: What would Jesus do at Abu Ghraib? |
30 May 2004 12:58:51 AM |
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Those Weren't Christians!
Them's GOD's CHOSEN ONES!
"Fredric L. Rice" <REMOVEFRice@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote in message
news:10bgcthmco6rf1@corp.supernews.com...
Gods the irony. A bunch of Christian murderers invade an innocent
Islamic country and slaughter their children in their beds, using
cluster munitions to blow their little limbs off and along comes
Christianity Today to pretend they're upset with fellow Christians
rapeing, torturing, and killing. As if the invasion of Iraq
wasn't just another chapter in Christianity's long and bloody
history of atrocities.
-=-
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