| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Ted King" |
| Date: |
06 Jun 2004 12:10:37 PM |
| Object: |
When is death okay? |
I know the question is somewhat vague and, well, a little weird maybe.
Feel free to interpret any way you want. Maybe some of you think death
is never okay. If so, I'd like to hear about that, too, but I'll admit
to being a little more curious about the thoughts of people who have
some idea of when death becomes okay. (Maybe many of you think death is
always okay - I'd like to hear about that, too.)
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
06 Jun 2004 01:02:05 PM |
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"Ted King" <lodited@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lodited-E1AABB.10103706062004@news.la.sbcglobal.net...
I know the question is somewhat vague and, well, a little weird maybe.
Feel free to interpret any way you want. Maybe some of you think death
is never okay. If so, I'd like to hear about that, too, but I'll admit
to being a little more curious about the thoughts of people who have
some idea of when death becomes okay. (Maybe many of you think death is
always okay - I'd like to hear about that, too.)
Is water 'ok', or rocks, or dirt, our our need for oxygen to live, or the
fact that the vast majority of species on the planet have two sexes? Death
is as much a factor of existance as any of these..
It's a little silly to ask if death is 'ok'.
After all, if your decision is that it is NOT 'OK', what are you going to do
about it?
may as well ask if the sun is 'OK'
Death is simply not something that is going to be affected by our judgement
of it's morality. ;-)
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| User: "Solomon Kozanski" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
07 Jun 2004 04:09:55 AM |
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"DianaC" <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:x_Iwc.15110$AU1.7215@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
"Ted King" <lodited@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lodited-E1AABB.10103706062004@news.la.sbcglobal.net...
I know the question is somewhat vague and, well, a little weird maybe.
Feel free to interpret any way you want. Maybe some of you think death
is never okay. If so, I'd like to hear about that, too, but I'll admit
to being a little more curious about the thoughts of people who have
some idea of when death becomes okay. (Maybe many of you think death is
always okay - I'd like to hear about that, too.)
Is water 'ok', or rocks, or dirt, our our need for oxygen to live, or the
fact that the vast majority of species on the planet have two sexes? Death
is as much a factor of existance as any of these..
It's a little silly to ask if death is 'ok'.
After all, if your decision is that it is NOT 'OK', what are you going to
do
about it?
may as well ask if the sun is 'OK'
Death is simply not something that is going to be affected by our
judgement
of it's morality. ;-)
and speaking of meaningless questions, what happens when an immovable object
is hit by an irresistable force?
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
07 Jun 2004 08:45:43 AM |
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"Solomon Kozanski" <noneofyourdamnbusiness@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:10c8br1il0dkva9@corp.supernews.com...
snip.
and speaking of meaningless questions, what happens when an immovable
object
is hit by an irresistable force?
And the answer is a possible of two:
Nothing,
and
something explodes.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
06 Jun 2004 01:17:10 PM |
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"DianaC" <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:x_Iwc.15110$AU1.7215@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
"Ted King" <lodited@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lodited-E1AABB.10103706062004@news.la.sbcglobal.net...
I know the question is somewhat vague and, well, a little weird maybe.
Feel free to interpret any way you want. Maybe some of you think death
is never okay. If so, I'd like to hear about that, too, but I'll admit
to being a little more curious about the thoughts of people who have
some idea of when death becomes okay. (Maybe many of you think death is
always okay - I'd like to hear about that, too.)
Is water 'ok', or rocks, or dirt, our our need for oxygen to live, or the
fact that the vast majority of species on the planet have two sexes? Death
is as much a factor of existance as any of these..
Smallpox was a factor of existence until we destroyed it. Death is no
different.
It's a little silly to ask if death is 'ok'.
Was smallpox ok?
After all, if your decision is that it is NOT 'OK', what are you going to
do
about it?
Eliminate it, like we did smallpox.
- may as well ask if the sun is 'OK'
Given sufficent technology, we could probably do something about it if we
decided it wasn't ok.
But I currently think the sun is ok.
Death is simply not something that is going to be affected by our
judgement
of it's morality. ;-)
Why not? Smallpox was. I see no difference.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
09 Jun 2004 11:03:27 AM |
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DianaC <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
After all, if your decision is that it is NOT 'OK', what are you going to do
about it?
Subscribe to a religion which promises an afterlife? Get your head
frozen?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Kermit" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
10 Jun 2004 09:08:31 AM |
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Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message news:<qlgec0p4b8ckuukgthk00bjkbbpdft91kb@4ax.com>...
DianaC <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
After all, if your decision is that it is NOT 'OK', what are you going to do
about it?
Subscribe to a religion which promises an afterlife? Get your head
frozen?
Someday soon - within a hundred years, maybe within my lifetime, we
will have a cure for old age. I am sorry you pessimists think hat we
will never be able to do anything about it, but Ted's question will
have to be dealt with for some people alive today (most likely). And
in time, by nearly everybody.
Me? I *like life, and I intend to live as long as possible. I like to
think that I will go with courage and calm, but given the choice, I
will undoubtedly live for hundreds of years at least. I would need the
option to opt out, however. I suppose as long as we have bodies of
flesh that this will be an available choice.
Kermit
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
10 Jun 2004 10:06:17 AM |
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(Kermit) wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
After all, if your decision is that it is NOT 'OK', what are you going
to do about it?
Subscribe to a religion which promises an afterlife? Get your head
frozen?
Someday soon - within a hundred years, maybe within my lifetime,
we will have a cure for old age.
How old is old, and what does "old age" actually imply? If it implies
wisdom, then what does it matter what you look like on the outside
when you get older?
I am sorry you pessimists think that we will never be able to do
anything about it,
I can only speak for myself, but believing that some magical
fairy named Jesus coming back to town to revive all the dead
people is too much for me to believe. I'd rather have my head
frozen, but I probably won't even do that, because of several
different factors...
but Ted's question will have to be dealt with for some people
alive today (most likely). And in time, by nearly everybody.
Yes, everybody has to deal with death. Either their own, or
someone close to them. The death deniers and afterlife believers
are stuck in their world of invisible gods and angels and souls
floating around somewhere in some make-believe heaven
that nobody can see with their eyes open. Once you're dead,
though, you'll be able to see those things...
Me? I *like life, and I intend to live as long as possible. I like to
think that I will go with courage and calm, but given the choice, I
will undoubtedly live for hundreds of years at least.
will = would like to?
I would need the option to opt out, however. I suppose as long as
we have bodies of flesh that this will be an available choice.
Brings up an interesting question, which is if people could pick
some specific age to be stuck in for eternity, what age would they
pick? If people don't age in heaven, then how can you tell by
looking at somebody about how old or wise they might be?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Kermit" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
13 Jun 2004 04:34:27 PM |
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Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message news:<260hc0hmdo8q9kimefrbnrj26630trgtu2@4ax.com>...
unrestrained_hand@hotmail.com (Kermit) wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
DianaC <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote in alt.atheism
After all, if your decision is that it is NOT 'OK', what are you going
to do about it?
Subscribe to a religion which promises an afterlife? Get your head
frozen?
Someday soon - within a hundred years, maybe within my lifetime,
we will have a cure for old age.
How old is old, and what does "old age" actually imply? If it implies
wisdom, then what does it matter what you look like on the outside
when you get older?
?
It never occurred to me to think about what I *look like. I do martial
arts, but I reckon it will be at *least another 100 years before I get
the basics mastered. After that it will get interesting :) Being
physically vigorous and clear-headed are important to me. White hair
is cool. Wrinkles and sagging chin are tolerable. It is clogged
arteries and brittle bones and dementia I can do without,
thankyouverymuch.
Surely you are doing something which requires growth and learning,
yes? Music, or science of some sort? Starting a garden? Do you think
you will know everything about it and have done all there is to do
about it when you are 80? If you are physically young, you will be
ready for new adventures, too.
Wisdom is good. But I suppose there will be immortals in the 22nd
century who spend their spare time watching "Married with Children"
reruns.
I would be happy with my present chronological age of 53, but I
imagine if people in the near future start living a very long time
that this question will be meaningless - at least for those receiving
medical treatments.
I am sorry you pessimists think that we will never be able to do
anything about it,
I can only speak for myself, but believing that some magical
fairy named Jesus coming back to town to revive all the dead
people is too much for me to believe.
Agreed. I don't buy snake oil, no matter what the promised reward. I
need a *reasonable possibility that there is something to it.
I'd rather have my head
frozen, but I probably won't even do that, because of several
different factors...
I'm afraid that head freezing will just turn the brain into a brain
slushy. In the future they might be able to clone a frozen head
(producing someone else), but without an intact brain I don't see how
they could bring anyone back.
but Ted's question will have to be dealt with for some people
alive today (most likely). And in time, by nearly everybody.
Yes, everybody has to deal with death. Either their own, or
someone close to them. The death deniers and afterlife believers
are stuck in their world of invisible gods and angels and souls
floating around somewhere in some make-believe heaven
that nobody can see with their eyes open. Once you're dead,
though, you'll be able to see those things...
Heh. But when old age is treatable, they'll stand in line with the
rest of us.
Me? I *like life, and I intend to live as long as possible. I like to
think that I will go with courage and calm, but given the choice, I
will undoubtedly live for hundreds of years at least.
will = would like to?
"I like to think"... A strange construction, isn't it? This sentence
means (but perhaps it shouldn't) that I believe, but am not at all
certain, that I will exit life with courage and serenity.
I would need the option to opt out, however. I suppose as long as
we have bodies of flesh that this will be an available choice.
Brings up an interesting question, which is if people could pick
some specific age to be stuck in for eternity, what age would they
pick? If people don't age in heaven, then how can you tell by
looking at somebody about how old or wise they might be?
Whether we're talking about a hypothetical Heaven or a probable future
in which people live for millennia, wisdom will have little to do with
the difference between 800 or 8000 years. Some folks will learn wisdom
faster or more deeply than others will. It's hard to say whether we'll
change much simply by living longer. We're meant to ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H we
didn't adapt to circumstances in which we lived more than a century. I
believe Lincoln said something like "Some people learn a new thing
every day; others live the same day over and over." The future will be
like that, I think, for a while. Of course I recognize that there are
so many important variables that I haven't the foggiest idea what will
happen, other than, if humanity survives another 100 years, we will
probably be able to stop aging.
I recall from Arthur C. Clarke's "Childhood's End" that the
protagonist, Alvin, was considered a child by other folks for several
hundred years.
I am puzzled by folks who give every indication of wanting to live
past 30, but who say they don't want to live more than 90. Perhaps
they are suffering the misapprehension that the older someone is, the
more feeble they are compared to others. Well, it's not the ones
living to be 102 (such as my grandmother-in-law) who are sickly at 60.
*Those folks are the one dying at 65. If my granddaughter lives to be
300, she'll be young and strong at 200.
Kermit
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
14 Jun 2004 10:34:28 AM |
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Kermit wrote in alt.atheism
I am puzzled by folks who give every indication of wanting to live
past 30, but who say they don't want to live more than 90. Perhaps
they are suffering the misapprehension that the older someone is,
the more feeble they are compared to others.
Most old people have all kinds of physical problems, from alzheimers
to weak bones, back pains, arthritis, skin cancer, prostrate cancer,
deafness, etc, etc...
If you're 80 or 90 or 100 and still in good physical condition, with
no gripes or physical problems at all, then I think you're probably a
rare character or even a miracle, so it would seem to me.
But many of those people still have active and healthy minds, which
is a problem or even a shame, when they have to hobble around or be
kept alive by machines...
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Kermit" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
15 Jun 2004 10:04:47 AM |
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Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message news:<lojrc0h1tp8dd03a31ctvf9in08lf1hnbs@4ax.com>...
Kermit wrote in alt.atheism
I am puzzled by folks who give every indication of wanting to live
past 30, but who say they don't want to live more than 90. Perhaps
they are suffering the misapprehension that the older someone is,
the more feeble they are compared to others.
Most old people have all kinds of physical problems, from alzheimers
to weak bones, back pains, arthritis, skin cancer, prostrate cancer,
deafness, etc, etc...
If you're 80 or 90 or 100 and still in good physical condition, with
no gripes or physical problems at all, then I think you're probably a
rare character or even a miracle, so it would seem to me.
But many of those people still have active and healthy minds, which
is a problem or even a shame, when they have to hobble around or be
kept alive by machines...
My point is that folks who live to be 102 for natural reasons, or
hypothetical folks of the future who live to be 1000, are the ones who
postpone these physical problems until later.
My wife's grandmother, who lived to be 102, was cleaning her own house
and fixing her own meals until her late nineties. Shs was mobile and
fed herself until she was 98, when her mind started going. She was
bedridden and confused only after that.
One of my own grandmothers suffered from adult onset diabetes, lost a
leg in her early sixties, died in her late sixties. The ones who die
young from non-trauma typically are those who are *sick young.
And I agree; it's a shame.
I see a day coming soon when people live young and free of metabolic
disease indefinitely, until something (like a mugger) kills them.
Probably in time for my grandkids. Likely too late for me, tho. <big
sigh> The future is fun; I'd like to see more of it.
Kermit
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
16 Jun 2004 11:09:45 AM |
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Kermit wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote in message
Kermit wrote in alt.atheism
I am puzzled by folks who give every indication of wanting to live
past 30, but who say they don't want to live more than 90. Perhaps
they are suffering the misapprehension that the older someone is,
the more feeble they are compared to others.
Most old people have all kinds of physical problems, from alzheimers
to weak bones, back pains, arthritis, skin cancer, prostrate cancer,
deafness, etc, etc...
If you're 80 or 90 or 100 and still in good physical condition, with
no gripes or physical problems at all, then I think you're probably a
rare character or even a miracle, so it would seem to me.
But many of those people still have active and healthy minds, which
is a problem or even a shame, when they have to hobble around or be
kept alive by machines...
My point is that folks who live to be 102 for natural reasons, or
hypothetical folks of the future who live to be 1000, are the ones who
postpone these physical problems until later.
My wife's grandmother, who lived to be 102, was cleaning her own house
and fixing her own meals until her late nineties. Shs was mobile and
fed herself until she was 98, when her mind started going. She was
bedridden and confused only after that.
My father's mother is 93, and she still drives her own car to the
local bingo parlor once a week, and other places. But she has
several old-age problems like a broken hip, arthritis in the knees,
and a failing memory and short attention span.
One of my own grandmothers suffered from adult onset diabetes,
lost a leg in her early sixties, died in her late sixties. The ones who
die young from non-trauma typically are those who are *sick young.
And I agree; it's a shame.
I see a day coming soon when people live young and free of metabolic
disease indefinitely, until something (like a mugger) kills them.
Probably in time for my grandkids. Likely too late for me, tho. <big
sigh> The future is fun; I'd like to see more of it.
I see a future where the human brain is housed in a harder-than-bone
shell, kinda like in Robocop. All the other body parts can be
replaced one by one, and the brain will become fed by artificial
blood of some kind, pumped by a mechanical heart made of
bio-synthetic muscle fibers which can easily be replaced much
like a light bulb is today.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Ted King" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
06 Jun 2004 05:42:23 PM |
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In article <x_Iwc.15110$AU1.7215@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
"DianaC" <dianaiad@verizon.net> wrote:
"Ted King" <lodited@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lodited-E1AABB.10103706062004@news.la.sbcglobal.net...
I know the question is somewhat vague and, well, a little weird maybe.
Feel free to interpret any way you want. Maybe some of you think death
is never okay. If so, I'd like to hear about that, too, but I'll admit
to being a little more curious about the thoughts of people who have
some idea of when death becomes okay. (Maybe many of you think death is
always okay - I'd like to hear about that, too.)
Is water 'ok', or rocks, or dirt, our our need for oxygen to live, or the
fact that the vast majority of species on the planet have two sexes? Death
is as much a factor of existance as any of these..
It's a little silly to ask if death is 'ok'.
After all, if your decision is that it is NOT 'OK', what are you going to do
about it?
may as well ask if the sun is 'OK'
Death is simply not something that is going to be affected by our judgement
of it's morality. ;-)
Of course the event of a murder of a three year old child is not going
to be affected by our judgment of its morality since it has happened,
but I imagine many people will not feel the death was okay.
Ted
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
06 Jun 2004 03:48:01 PM |
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On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 18:02:05 GMT, "DianaC" <dianaiad@verizon.net>
wrote:
"Ted King" <lodited@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lodited-E1AABB.10103706062004@news.la.sbcglobal.net...
I know the question is somewhat vague and, well, a little weird maybe.
Feel free to interpret any way you want. Maybe some of you think death
is never okay. If so, I'd like to hear about that, too, but I'll admit
to being a little more curious about the thoughts of people who have
some idea of when death becomes okay. (Maybe many of you think death is
always okay - I'd like to hear about that, too.)
Is water 'ok', or rocks, or dirt, our our need for oxygen to live, or the
fact that the vast majority of species on the planet have two sexes? Death
is as much a factor of existance as any of these..
It's a little silly to ask if death is 'ok'.
After all, if your decision is that it is NOT 'OK', what are you going to do
about it?
may as well ask if the sun is 'OK'
Death is simply not something that is going to be affected by our judgement
of it's morality. ;-)
Good take on the subject, DianaC!
drift
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| User: "Solomon Kozanski" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
07 Jun 2004 04:04:04 AM |
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"Ted King" <lodited@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lodited-E1AABB.10103706062004@news.la.sbcglobal.net...
I know the question is somewhat vague and, well, a little weird maybe.
Feel free to interpret any way you want. Maybe some of you think death
is never okay. If so, I'd like to hear about that, too, but I'll admit
to being a little more curious about the thoughts of people who have
some idea of when death becomes okay. (Maybe many of you think death is
always okay - I'd like to hear about that, too.)
whether death is ok or not is irrelevent. its one of those "it happens
whether you like it or not, so tough ***** pal" types of things. its not
unlike taxes in that regard
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| User: "Samir Ribic" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
10 Jun 2004 02:40:12 AM |
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"Solomon Kozanski" <noneofyourdamnbusiness@localnet.com> wrote in message news:<10c8bg1f9e27bdd@corp.supernews.com>...
"Ted King" <lodited@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lodited-E1AABB.10103706062004@news.la.sbcglobal.net...
I know the question is somewhat vague and, well, a little weird maybe.
Feel free to interpret any way you want. Maybe some of you think death
is never okay. If so, I'd like to hear about that, too, but I'll admit
to being a little more curious about the thoughts of people who have
some idea of when death becomes okay. (Maybe many of you think death is
always okay - I'd like to hear about that, too.)
whether death is ok or not is irrelevent. its one of those "it happens
whether you like it or not, so tough ***** pal" types of things. its not
unlike taxes in that regard
In Brunei there are no taxes, but death is still present.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
06 Jun 2004 06:26:02 PM |
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Great Lord Ted King <lodited@yahoo.com>, braving the raging storm,
scaled the mighty crag called alt.atheism on Sun, 06 Jun 2004 17:10:37
GMT and screamed this to the uncaring Gods.
I know the question is somewhat vague and, well, a little weird maybe.
Feel free to interpret any way you want. Maybe some of you think death
is never okay. If so, I'd like to hear about that, too, but I'll admit
to being a little more curious about the thoughts of people who have
some idea of when death becomes okay. (Maybe many of you think death is
always okay - I'd like to hear about that, too.)
This is a little vague, but I'm guessing you're going on the assisted
suicide level here?
A person should be able to choose death when an illness has progressed
to the point that there is no hope of recovery, and death is
inevitable. Since many diseases rob you of your dignity on the way
out, being able to chose your exit is (I beleve) a basic right.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
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| User: "Jenny6833A" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
06 Jun 2004 07:38:49 PM |
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Douglas Berry says
A person should be able to choose death when an illness has progressed
to the point that there is no hope of recovery, and death is
inevitable.
Who decides when that point occurs?
Why should anyone have to ask others for permission to die?
:-)
Jenny
Before emailing, remove Clothes
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
06 Jun 2004 09:16:07 PM |
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Great Lord jenny6833a@aol.comClothes (Jenny6833A), braving the raging
storm, scaled the mighty crag called alt.atheism on 07 Jun 2004
00:38:49 GMT and screamed this to the uncaring Gods.
Douglas Berry says
A person should be able to choose death when an illness has progressed
to the point that there is no hope of recovery, and death is
inevitable.
Who decides when that point occurs?
Why should anyone have to ask others for permission to die?
Well, nobody is stopping you from swallowing a bullet. But I speak of
physician assisted suicide as an alternative to messier, amateur forms
of suicide.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
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| User: "Jenny6833A" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
07 Jun 2004 05:02:02 AM |
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Douglas Berry says, without his wordy lead
in:
jenny6833a@aol.comClothes (Jenny6833A):
Douglas Berry says
A person should be able to choose death when an illness has progressed
to the point that there is no hope of recovery, and death is
inevitable.
Who decides when that point occurs?
Why should anyone have to ask others for permission to die?
Well, nobody is stopping you from swallowing a bullet.
But I am precluded from swallowing an effective pill without the approval of
others.
But I speak of
physician assisted suicide as an alternative to messier, amateur forms
of suicide.
There's only one reason that "amateur" methods tend to be messy: our physician
friends have obtained and jealously guard a monoply on prescribing stuff; we
must pay them to get it; they allow us the stuff only if they in their
self-appointed godness approve.
There's no other reason that physician-*unapproved* suicides need be messy.
Repeating your first statement above:
A person should be able to choose death when an illness has progressed
to the point that there is no hope of recovery, and death is
inevitable.
You put no time limit in your statement, whereas the Oregon law says death must
be predicted by at least two physicians to occur within six months.
As your statement reads, it allows one to say, "Life is the disease, death is
inevitable, so gimme the pill."
I doubt you mean that, although IMO you should.
I'd also take issue with your use of the term "physician assisted suicide":
that's just more of the self-serving balderdash put out by the physician
monopoly.
The physician scribbles on a little piece of paper, and need have no other
role.
That's no different than a cash register clerk at some greasy-spoon joint
scribbling "1 burger, 1 shake" on a scrap of paper of similar size.
Yet, we don't speak of "clerk-assisted eating."
:-)
Jenny
Before emailing, remove Clothes
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
06 Jun 2004 10:34:57 PM |
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In article <suj7c0pg7ao7u747kit7c4rd79mtdrcfec@4ax.com>,
says...
Great Lord jenny6833a@aol.comClothes (Jenny6833A), braving the raging
storm, scaled the mighty crag called alt.atheism on 07 Jun 2004
00:38:49 GMT and screamed this to the uncaring Gods.
Douglas Berry says
A person should be able to choose death when an illness has progressed
to the point that there is no hope of recovery, and death is
inevitable.
Who decides when that point occurs?
Why should anyone have to ask others for permission to die?
Well, nobody is stopping you from swallowing a bullet. But I speak of
physician assisted suicide as an alternative to messier, amateur forms
of suicide.
And the amateur methods are often not successful, leading to more pain
and suffering for the ill and their families. We give our pets the best
care we can, and a peaceful exit when there is no future but pain. Why
can't our parents choose that for themselves?
--
Enkidu - AA# 2165
"Today, the theory of evolution is an accepted fact for
everyone but a fundamentalist minority, whose objections
are based not on reasoning but on doctrinaire adherence
to religious principles"
James D. Watson
http://www.nobel.se/medicine/laureates/1962/watson-bio.html
"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that `You,' your joys and
your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your
sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no
more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells
and their associated molecules."
Francis Crick
http://www.nobel.se/medicine/laureates/1962/crick-bio.html
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
08 Jun 2004 06:03:07 AM |
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On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 23:26:02 GMT, Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
A person should be able to choose death when an illness has progressed
to the point that there is no hope of recovery, and death is
inevitable. Since many diseases rob you of your dignity on the way
out, being able to chose your exit is (I beleve) a basic right.
Civilly in Oregon you're right. Morally, you're wrong.
duke
*****
I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear
it now. When he comes, the Holy Spirit will declare
to you the things that are coming. John 16:12-15.
*****
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
15 Jun 2004 09:25:38 PM |
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On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 17:10:37 +0000, Ted King wrote in alt.atheism:
I know the question is somewhat vague and, well, a little weird maybe.
Feel free to interpret any way you want. Maybe some of you think death
is never okay. If so, I'd like to hear about that, too, but I'll admit
to being a little more curious about the thoughts of people who have
some idea of when death becomes okay. (Maybe many of you think death is
always okay - I'd like to hear about that, too.)
Death occurs, at various times and various ways. Whether one considers
death to be "ok or not ok" is irrelevant.
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| User: "Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
07 Jun 2004 12:17:01 AM |
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On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 17:10:37 GMT, Ted King <lodited@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism:
I know the question is somewhat vague and, well, a little weird maybe.
Feel free to interpret any way you want. Maybe some of you think death
is never okay. If so, I'd like to hear about that, too, but I'll admit
to being a little more curious about the thoughts of people who have
some idea of when death becomes okay. (Maybe many of you think death is
always okay - I'd like to hear about that, too.)
First question about the question that arises for me is *whose* death, since that seems to
make a big difference. I'm guessing that, among the population of regular readers here,
few were much distressed by (taking a wild guess at the spelling) K'housay and Ouday's
deaths. At the middle distance stand, respectively, the deaths of great masses of people
unknown to us except as abstractions, but not from some heart-wrenching calamity; those
of like nameless masses, but *by* 9/11/01-like happenstance; those of one's own kin,
perhaps at advanced age and/or in an advanced stage of physical or mental disintegration.
Then there's the limiting case: one's own death may even be arguably desirable, in some
conditions, right up until the point of making it happen, when evolved resistance to
giving it up commandeers the entire neuromusculature. It seems to me that a strictly
rational solution of the problem posed is necessarily at odds with an emotionally acceptable
one. YMMV.
You did mean human death, right?
--
/Apostate
atheist #(e^7.5657933) I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; billions served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
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| User: "DJ Nozem" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
08 Jun 2004 08:54:57 AM |
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On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 17:10:37 GMT, Ted King <lodited@yahoo.com> wrote:
I know the question is somewhat vague and, well, a little weird maybe.
Feel free to interpret any way you want. Maybe some of you think death
is never okay. If so, I'd like to hear about that, too, but I'll admit
to being a little more curious about the thoughts of people who have
some idea of when death becomes okay. (Maybe many of you think death is
always okay - I'd like to hear about that, too.)
Death is OK like volcano eruptions are OK. Or sunshine. Es ist ganz
unterschiedlich. There is little use in me giving a fiat for death. It
happens. My stance means nothing.
We can try to work to postpone death, which is good, in some cases, or
speed it up, which is also good in some cases. But not in others. Here
positions matter. Mine tends towards allowing help in all cases,
though the system must be set up to work against death like mad, save
where living implies pointless physical suffering. I see huge, huge
dangers here with systems that could allow euthanasia outside this
strict definition of pointless physical suffering. So I'm caught up in
it and don't know what to advocate and am thrown back and forth
between supporting the liberals who would allow this extension and the
conservatives who fight against it at every turn.
I have sympathies for both, but none for those in the middle who might
support some, but then again perhaps not, or later and are afraid of
committing to anything or taking a perspective in a discussion,
fearful of what their electorate would think and interested mainly in
researching that statistic before they take any stance. Sometimes I
think we are creating a new Babylon over in the Netherlands(1), on the
other hand I find myself committed to most of the principles that are
identified with this creation. Legalize it all. But it's coming mainly
through the politician's perception of what the public wants and what
developments will be, not through any principled or pragmatic
discussion and it's scary and frustrating.
This is too big for me, perhaps. It's the biggest thing I see, but I
rarely touch upon it. Are we moving too fast in this world, with this
world? Then again, I would jump on the train, without second thoughts,
when longevity should come. But we will need new rules. I'll repeat
that the whole thing scares me and I am not sure that fear is poor
counsel here.
Back to death:
Sometimes death is a worthy occasion, though never quite joyous. The
noteworthy death of last week seems to me such a case. Other deaths,
occurring approximately halfway around the globe from where Ronnie
drew his last breath, are outrages.
(1) I am hailing from Berlin, which is the main reason for my
irregular appearance on usenet these past few months. Berlin is where
it's at and the FU rules.
--
We give meaning to each other
DJ Nozem aa#1465
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| User: "Mike Smith" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
08 Jun 2004 09:29:25 AM |
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DJ Nozem <TheFUrules@berlin.de> wrote:
=(1) I am hailing from Berlin, which is the main reason
=for my irregular appearance on usenet these past few
=months. Berlin is where it's at and the FU rules.
What's the FU?
__________________________________________
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH
__________________________________________
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
- Psa. 14a
Whoever saith 'thou fool' to his brother shall
be liable to burn in hellfire. - Matt 5:22.
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| User: "Ted King" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
08 Jun 2004 10:45:59 AM |
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In article <e9jbc0pch7i972rle9ubnl4h3f9n6be980@4ax.com>,
Mike Smith <mikesmith@godisdead.com> wrote:
DJ Nozem <TheFUrules@berlin.de> wrote:
=(1) I am hailing from Berlin, which is the main reason
=for my irregular appearance on usenet these past few
=months. Berlin is where it's at and the FU rules.
What's the FU?
Free University?
http://www.fu-berlin.de/
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| User: "DJ Nozem" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
08 Jun 2004 11:03:53 AM |
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On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 15:45:59 GMT, Ted King <lodited@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <e9jbc0pch7i972rle9ubnl4h3f9n6be980@4ax.com>,
Mike Smith <mikesmith@godisdead.com> wrote:
DJ Nozem <TheFUrules@berlin.de> wrote:
=(1) I am hailing from Berlin, which is the main reason
=for my irregular appearance on usenet these past few
=months. Berlin is where it's at and the FU rules.
What's the FU?
Free University?
http://www.fu-berlin.de/
Good digging!
(And hello to you both)
--
We give meaning to each other
DJ Nozem aa#1465
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| User: "Mike Smith" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
09 Jun 2004 09:11:45 AM |
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DJ Nozem <TheFUrules@berlin.de> wrote:
=Ted King <lodited@yahoo.com> wrote:
=>Mike Smith <mikesmith@godisdead.com> wrote:
=>> DJ Nozem <TheFUrules@berlin.de> wrote:
=
=>> =(1) I am hailing from Berlin, which is the main reason
=>> =for my irregular appearance on usenet these past few
=>> =months. Berlin is where it's at and the FU rules.
=
=>> What's the FU?
=
=>Free University?
=>http://www.fu-berlin.de/
=
=Good digging!
=(And hello to you both)
Hi, DJ. I'm just getting lazier, I guess :-)
__________________________________________
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH
__________________________________________
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
"The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline,
with a plumbline in his hand." - Amos 7:7
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
10 Jun 2004 05:43:12 PM |
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On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 17:10:37 GMT, Ted King <lodited@yahoo.com> wrote:
I know the question is somewhat vague and, well, a little weird maybe.
Feel free to interpret any way you want. Maybe some of you think death
is never okay. If so, I'd like to hear about that, too, but I'll admit
to being a little more curious about the thoughts of people who have
some idea of when death becomes okay. (Maybe many of you think death is
always okay - I'd like to hear about that, too.)
Death is ok when God says it's time.
duke
*****
I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear
it now. When he comes, the Holy Spirit will declare
to you the things that are coming. John 16:12-15.
*****
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| User: "Michael Cole" |
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| Title: Re: When is death okay? |
10 Jun 2004 07:51:43 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:evohc0lcei1iquojr5nvrrtg3rq9diaelu@4ax.com
On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 17:10:37 GMT, Ted King <lodited@yahoo.com> wrote:
I know the question is somewhat vague and, well, a little weird
maybe. Feel free to interpret any way you want. Maybe some of you
think death is never okay. If so, I'd like to hear about that, too,
but I'll admit to being a little more curious about the thoughts of
people who have some idea of when death becomes okay. (Maybe many of
you think death is always okay - I'd like to hear about that, too.)
Death is ok when God says it's time.
God didn't say, "Its Time.", Gough Whitlam did. Perhaps you got confused
between the two of them...
HTH
--
Regards,
Michael Cole
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