| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
28 Aug 2005 05:37:45 PM |
| Object: |
Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
Ah, atheists. Go on any religious discussion board, and you'll find
just as many atheists as believers posting their beliefs.
No, atheists - at least the online ones - are not shy about how much
they loathe that god they don't believe exists, a loathing extended to
the true religious believers. I share their disbelief in that god, yet
feel the believers are at least trying to find their way - but that's
not my point.
Millions of people have had NDEs. I've yet to see any indication that
people who are atheists have less or more NDE's than other people. It
seems certain millions of atheists have had NDEs.
So where are the NDE atheists? Why aren't they out there proclaiming
the NDE is a hallucination? "
Read the rest of his article by scrolling down from the URL at the top
of this discussion.
I would like to hear from some atheists who have experienced a core
NDE, especially including the all-loving being of light and the life
review.
It would also be interesting to hear from any former atheists /
agnostics who had NDEs.
Is J.D. Bourdon's contention that the NDE almost always "cures" atheism
correct?
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 09:48:25 PM |
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On 28 Aug 2005 10:37:45 -0700 in alt.atheism,
() said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
Ah, atheists. Go on any religious discussion board, and you'll find
just as many atheists as believers posting their beliefs.
No, atheists - at least the online ones - are not shy about how much
they loathe that god they don't believe exists, a loathing extended to
the true religious believers. I share their disbelief in that god, yet
feel the believers are at least trying to find their way - but that's
not my point.
Millions of people have had NDEs. I've yet to see any indication that
people who are atheists have less or more NDE's than other people. It
seems certain millions of atheists have had NDEs.
So where are the NDE atheists? Why aren't they out there proclaiming
the NDE is a hallucination? "
Read the rest of his article by scrolling down from the URL at the top
of this discussion.
I would like to hear from some atheists who have experienced a core
NDE, especially including the all-loving being of light and the life
review.
It would also be interesting to hear from any former atheists /
agnostics who had NDEs.
Is J.D. Bourdon's contention that the NDE almost always "cures" atheism
correct?
Never had a NDE. Used to do quite a lot of OOBE though, and quite
sufficient to convince me that it was an entirely subjective
experience.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
#442. Want food NOW? Then try http://www.rtios.co.uk/
- Yep, currently under test... Your opinion welcome.
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 10:27:34 PM |
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<sdaconsulting@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1125250665.890157.40130@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
Ah, atheists. Go on any religious discussion board, and you'll find
just as many atheists as believers posting their beliefs.
Ahem. I believe it's called 'disbelief.'
No, atheists - at least the online ones - are not shy about how much
they loathe that god they don't believe exists,
How can you 'loathe' something that doesn't exist. Trust me, I don't
'loathe' Zeus or Thor.
a loathing extended to
the true religious believers.
Well there, you're onto to something. *This* atheist most certainly
loathes people who have been shown that their belief-system is, at
best, 'a nice idea.' But to perpetuate their irrational belief in spite of
the overwhelming evidence that their 'faith' is misplaced, and to foist
their nonsense on the youth of this country is, to my mind, unconscionable.
You can of course, believe anything you want. This is a free country. But
to continue to foster beliefs that are clearly untrue is a crime. It's one
thing
to 'not know' the truth, it's another to perpetuate ideas that have been
refuted and rebuffed ad nauseam.
I share their disbelief in that god, yet
feel the believers are at least trying to find their way - but that's
not my point.
What say you? The 'believers' are not trying to find *anything* really.
*They'll*
tell you they've already found it (God, Jesus, or whatever.) Problem is,
they're
wrong as wrong can get. They're deluding themselves and don't have the
courage
to admit it. (They're in what AA calls 'denial.')
Millions of people have had NDEs. I've yet to see any indication that
people who are atheists have less or more NDE's than other people. It
seems certain millions of atheists have had NDEs.
I've been at 'death's door' several times. The one thing that these events
had in
common was that I felt a great sense of 'peace' (and relief, I might add).
No
lights, tunnel, or any of that stuff. But I will admit to having
hallucinations - of a
non-religious nature. No 'religious' experiences for this atheist dude!
Sorry.
So where are the NDE atheists? Why aren't they out there proclaiming
the NDE is a hallucination? "
I've just admitted to having halllucinations. I will also admit to being
loaded up
on pills and alcohol on two of those occasions. Does that help any?
Read the rest of his article by scrolling down from the URL at the top
of this discussion.
I would like to hear from some atheists who have experienced a core
NDE, especially including the all-loving being of light and the life
review.
Oh, puh-leeeeze!
It would also be interesting to hear from any former atheists /
agnostics who had NDEs.
Is J.D. Bourdon's contention that the NDE almost always "cures" atheism
correct?
I can only speak for myself. And the answer to that is loud, resounding NO!
Greywolf
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 08:10:36 PM |
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<sdaconsulting@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1125250665.890157.40130@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
Ah, atheists. Go on any religious discussion board, and you'll find
just as many atheists as believers posting their beliefs.
No, atheists - at least the online ones - are not shy about how much
they loathe that god they don't believe exists, a
Troll, troll, troll, your *****...........gently down the stream - PLONK
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Science doesn't burn people at the stake for disagreeing - Vic Sagerquist
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| User: "Jos Flachs - skip the aa" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
29 Aug 2005 12:09:48 PM |
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On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:10:36 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
<sdaconsulting@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1125250665.890157.40130@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
Ah, atheists. Go on any religious discussion board, and you'll find
just as many atheists as believers posting their beliefs.
No, atheists - at least the online ones - are not shy about how much
they loathe that god they don't believe exists, a
Troll, troll, troll, your *****...........gently down the stream - PLONK
No Robijntje, I think you are wrong.
This is a not so clever attempt to get atheists to say there is a god.
Notice this chappie is pushing for that all-loving light bulb?
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| User: "WCB" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 11:20:07 PM |
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wrote:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
Ah, atheists. Go on any religious discussion board, and you'll find
just as many atheists as believers posting their beliefs.
No, atheists - at least the online ones - are not shy about how much
they loathe that god they don't believe exists, a loathing extended to
the true religious believers. I share their disbelief in that god, yet
feel the believers are at least trying to find their way - but that's
not my point.
few Atheists "loathe" god. For the same reason sane people
don't loath Captain Hook, Darth Vader or Saturday morning
cartoon villians. Amny of us loathe the concepts that ancient
billy goat herders made up about god that today's unthinking
believers still believe in, a god that for example command's genocides.
We see what that this sort of god has goven us 1600 years
of pogroms, religous wars and crusades.
Millions of people have had NDEs. I've yet to see any indication that
people who are atheists have less or more NDE's than other people. It
seems certain millions of atheists have had NDEs.
If you have gone to the better scholarly books on NDEs, you
will find indeed, Atheists also have them, its just they take
then in a very different way than religious believers.
So where are the NDE atheists? Why aren't they out there proclaiming
the NDE is a hallucination? "
Read the rest of his article by scrolling down from the URL at the top
of this discussion.
I would like to hear from some atheists who have experienced a core
NDE, especially including the all-loving being of light and the life
review.
It would also be interesting to hear from any former atheists /
agnostics who had NDEs.
Is J.D. Bourdon's contention that the NDE almost always "cures" atheism
correct?
--
Xenu is around and about,
mention Hubbard, Xenu pops out!
No way for the clams to stamp Xenu out,
Xenu is around and about!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 08:41:21 PM |
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wrote:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
Ah, atheists. Go on any religious discussion board, and you'll find
just as many atheists as believers posting their beliefs.
No, atheists - at least the online ones - are not shy about how much
they loathe that god they don't believe exists, a loathing extended to
the true religious believers. I share their disbelief in that god, yet
feel the believers are at least trying to find their way - but that's
not my point.
Millions of people have had NDEs. I've yet to see any indication that
people who are atheists have less or more NDE's than other people. It
seems certain millions of atheists have had NDEs.
So where are the NDE atheists? Why aren't they out there proclaiming
the NDE is a hallucination? "
Penn and Teller's *****. Season 1, Ouija Boards and NDE's.
Strange, how it was clearly shown that the NDE can be recreated in
controlled experiments.
Read the rest of his article by scrolling down from the URL at the top
of this discussion.
Why?
A normal human reaction to the lack of oxygen in the brain, is, if
you'll pardon the term, a no brainer.
I would like to hear from some atheists who have experienced a core
NDE, especially including the all-loving being of light and the life
review.
It would also be interesting to hear from any former atheists /
agnostics who had NDEs.
Is J.D. Bourdon's contention that the NDE almost always "cures" atheism
correct?
Yeah, sure. Don't suppose he'd care to post some of them, would he?
Kind of like the ever condescending statement, "there are no atheists in
foxholes", which, by the number of veterans that hang out here, proves
that stupid statement wrong.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
A.A #1143 http://azhotops.blogspot.com/
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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| User: "L. Raymond" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 08:21:48 PM |
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wrote:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
Ah, atheists. Go on any religious discussion board, and you'll find
just as many atheists as believers posting their beliefs.
No, atheists - at least the online ones - are not shy about how much
they loathe that god they don't believe exists, a loathing extended to
the true religious believers. I share their disbelief in that god, yet
feel the believers are at least trying to find their way - but that's
not my point.
Millions of people have had NDEs. I've yet to see any indication that
people who are atheists have less or more NDE's than other people. It
seems certain millions of atheists have had NDEs.
So where are the NDE atheists? Why aren't they out there proclaiming
the NDE is a hallucination? "
Atheists don't have to, since scientists have already discovered the
mechanics behind NDEs. Not only why they occur, but the parts of the
brain which are affected.
As is usual with idiots, the author plumbs the depth of his own
ignorance in an attempt to seem deep and intelligent.
--
L. Raymond
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
01 Sep 2005 11:42:38 PM |
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On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:21:48 -0500, "L. Raymond"
<badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
sdaconsulting@nc.rr.com wrote:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
Ah, atheists. Go on any religious discussion board, and you'll find
just as many atheists as believers posting their beliefs.
No, atheists - at least the online ones - are not shy about how much
they loathe that god they don't believe exists, a loathing extended to
the true religious believers. I share their disbelief in that god, yet
feel the believers are at least trying to find their way - but that's
not my point.
Millions of people have had NDEs. I've yet to see any indication that
people who are atheists have less or more NDE's than other people. It
seems certain millions of atheists have had NDEs.
So where are the NDE atheists? Why aren't they out there proclaiming
the NDE is a hallucination? "
Atheists don't have to, since scientists have already discovered the
mechanics behind NDEs. Not only why they occur, but the parts of the
brain which are affected.
As is usual with idiots, the author plumbs the depth of his own
ignorance in an attempt to seem deep and intelligent.
And the 'deep' was without bottom.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 09:04:28 PM |
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wrote:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
Ah, atheists. Go on any religious discussion board, and you'll find
just as many atheists as believers posting their beliefs.
We have no beliefs. Try again.
No, atheists - at least the online ones - are not shy about how much
they loathe that god they don't believe exists,
Sorry, but we cannot loathe something that we don't believe exists. Try
again.
a loathing extended to
the true religious believers.
....only those that feel the need to project their beliefs onto us.
I share their disbelief in that god, yet
feel the believers are at least trying to find their way -
....and atheists could not care less about those believers.
but that's
not my point.
What is the point?
Millions of people have had NDEs. I've yet to see any indication that
people who are atheists have less or more NDE's than other people. It
seems certain millions of atheists have had NDEs.
So where are the NDE atheists? Why aren't they out there proclaiming
the NDE is a hallucination? "
NDE is a hallucination, caused by misfiring of the neurons.
Read the rest of his article by scrolling down from the URL at the top
of this discussion.
I would like to hear from some atheists who have experienced a core
NDE, especially including the all-loving being of light and the life
review.
Do me a favor: Hit your thumb hard with a hammer. Tell me if you "see
lights." This is a short-lived "NDE." Even cartoons of the 1930s have
the characters experience visual or auditory hallucinations ("seeing
stars" or "hearing twittering birds.")
It would also be interesting to hear from any former atheists /
agnostics who had NDEs.
I closed my hand in a car door hard once, and I "saw stars" -- that is,
flashing of lights in front of my eyes, and I saw a tunnel of light for
nearly 5 seconds before recovering and howling in pain.
Is J.D. Bourdon's contention that the NDE almost always "cures" atheism
correct?
No. Atheism is not something to be "cured."
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "If God had intended us to walk, he wouldn't *
* have invented roller skates." --Willy Wonka *
****************************************************
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 06:01:44 PM |
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wrote:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
Is J.D. Bourdon's contention that the NDE almost always "cures" atheism
correct?
let's see now....we have people who are alive talking about what it's
like to be dead. But since they are alive, they were never dead!
being "almost dead" is not at all the same as being "dead". why don't
they understand this?
I've never had an nde that I know of, so I can't say what it's like,
but apparently NDE can be induced various ways. It seems that this is
just the normal way the brain works when it's deprived of oxygen, and
keeps certain parts working but turns off other parts.
I don't know how an honest person could extrapolate a "god" thingy from
this phenomenon....
Jim
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
01 Sep 2005 11:40:36 PM |
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On 28 Aug 2005 11:01:44 -0700, "J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm>
wrote:
sdaconsult...@nc.rr.com wrote:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
Is J.D. Bourdon's contention that the NDE almost always "cures" atheism
correct?
let's see now....we have people who are alive talking about what it's
like to be dead. But since they are alive, they were never dead!
being "almost dead" is not at all the same as being "dead". why don't
they understand this?
I've never had an nde that I know of, so I can't say what it's like,
but apparently NDE can be induced various ways. It seems that this is
just the normal way the brain works when it's deprived of oxygen, and
keeps certain parts working but turns off other parts.
I don't know how an honest person could extrapolate a "god" thingy from
this phenomenon....
Via delusion.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
01 Sep 2005 11:42:58 PM |
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stoney wrote:
On 28 Aug 2005 11:01:44 -0700, "J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm>
wrote:
sdaconsult...@nc.rr.com wrote:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
Is J.D. Bourdon's contention that the NDE almost always "cures" atheism
correct?
let's see now....we have people who are alive talking about what it's
like to be dead. But since they are alive, they were never dead!
being "almost dead" is not at all the same as being "dead". why don't
they understand this?
I've never had an nde that I know of, so I can't say what it's like,
but apparently NDE can be induced various ways. It seems that this is
just the normal way the brain works when it's deprived of oxygen, and
keeps certain parts working but turns off other parts.
I don't know how an honest person could extrapolate a "god" thingy from
this phenomenon....
Via delusion.
....and the want of something so badly that they'll delude themselve into
believing it.
(Hm. What is the term for wanting something badly? I think it's one of
those Deadly Sins things...)
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "If God had intended us to walk, he wouldn't *
* have invented roller skates." --Willy Wonka *
****************************************************
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
05 Sep 2005 05:42:25 PM |
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On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 23:42:58 GMT, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
stoney wrote:
On 28 Aug 2005 11:01:44 -0700, "J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm>
wrote:
sdaconsult...@nc.rr.com wrote:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
Is J.D. Bourdon's contention that the NDE almost always "cures" atheism
correct?
let's see now....we have people who are alive talking about what it's
like to be dead. But since they are alive, they were never dead!
being "almost dead" is not at all the same as being "dead". why don't
they understand this?
I've never had an nde that I know of, so I can't say what it's like,
but apparently NDE can be induced various ways. It seems that this is
just the normal way the brain works when it's deprived of oxygen, and
keeps certain parts working but turns off other parts.
I don't know how an honest person could extrapolate a "god" thingy from
this phenomenon....
Via delusion.
...and the want of something so badly that they'll delude themselve into
believing it.
(Hm. What is the term for wanting something badly? I think it's one of
those Deadly Sins things...)
Thing is those 'sins' are anything but deadly.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
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| User: "655321" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 07:15:13 PM |
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On 2005-08-28 10:37:45 -0700, said:
Millions of people have had NDEs. I've yet to see any indication that
people who are atheists have less or more NDE's than other people. It
seems certain millions of atheists have had NDEs.
Of course the author is not citing any research into this question,
so... It's just B.S. guessing.
--
GlennGlenn (655321) -- aa#825 --
"My bible is accurate where it needs to be." --Earl "duke" Webber
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 07:30:20 PM |
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On 28 Aug 2005 10:37:45 -0700, drained his
beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed
the following
Millions of people have had NDEs. I've yet to see any indication that
people who are atheists have less or more NDE's than other people. It
seems certain millions of atheists have had NDEs.
So where are the NDE atheists? Why aren't they out there proclaiming
the NDE is a hallucination? "
I died on the operating table, and had a NDE. Moving down a long
tunnel towards a light, the whole deal.
Of course, that's pretty much what happened when I was born, which was
an equally traumatic experience, y'know.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 08:37:10 PM |
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Doug,
Did you experience the "core" NDE experience of the being of light,
radiating with unconditional love? Did you have a "life review" where
you experienced the events of your life and felt that the moments that
were loving were what mattered?
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| User: "Darrell Stec" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 09:37:29 PM |
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After serious contemplation, on or about Sunday 28 August 2005 4:37 pm
sdaconsulting@nc.rr.com wrote:
I almost drowned once and had a NDE.
Doug,
Did you experience the "core" NDE experience of the being of light,
radiating with unconditional love?
Nothing about radiating with unconditional love, but did travel through a
tunnel with a kaleidoscope of changing colors with a brilliant white light
at the end which grew as I got closer. But I was pulled out of the water
and never found out what was on the other side of that light.
Did you have a "life review" where
you experienced the events of your life and felt that the moments that
were loving were what mattered?
I had a life review which was like a film played backwards. It seemed my
whole life of 13 years was played out (but in a matter of seconds in real
life). Nothing about moments that were loving. They were neutral but
apparently important for the impact they must have made on my life at the
time.
It has been my experience in talking with people who stated they have had
NDEs that the experience was one of fuzzy warmth or comfort but no one
mentioned loving feelings.
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 09:30:25 PM |
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On 28 Aug 2005 13:37:10 -0700, drained his
beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed
the following
Doug,
Did you experience the "core" NDE experience of the being of light,
radiating with unconditional love? Did you have a "life review" where
you experienced the events of your life and felt that the moments that
were loving were what mattered?
Light and warmth, and an odd sense of calmness. But no feelings of
love, no dead relatives, and I don't remember much else. Nextthing I
knew, I was in the recovery room.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
29 Aug 2005 11:16:41 PM |
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On 28 Aug 2005 10:37:45 -0700, wrote:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
Ah, atheists. Go on any religious discussion board, and you'll find
just as many atheists as believers posting their beliefs.
No, atheists - at least the online ones - are not shy about how much
they loathe that god they don't believe exists, a loathing extended to
the true religious believers.
If you are wanting the atheists in these NGs, to assist your "research(?)", you
might do better to start with honesty, instead of making up hate statements,
like that one.
Atheists do not hate the object of your superstition.
How can we hate something which we do not believe exists?
What we probably all hate, is the evil done in the name of your god, or any
god.
And a great many of us seriously dislike the self righteous arse holes who keep
coming into atheist NGs, and telling us that we are murderers, rapists, child
molesters, immoral, and goodness alone, knows what all else, not to mention
Satan worshipers.
....And just because we don't believe in your godonastick.
Or any other god, for that matter.
We might even fear them, and their irrationality, or even pity them;
What we don't do, is hate them.
Least ways, no atheist I ever met, hated either gods, or theists.
I share their disbelief in that god,
That is patiently obvious.
yet
feel the believers are at least trying to find their way - but that's
not my point.
Millions of people have had NDEs.
I've yet to see any indication that
people who are atheists have less or more NDE's than other people. It
seems certain millions of atheists have had NDEs.
So where are the NDE atheists? Why aren't they out there proclaiming
the NDE is a hallucination? "
Why should we?
Most of us, don't give a shite, what *you* believe, we just don't want it shoved
down our throats.
So if you believe that a quirk, in the way that anesthetics effect different
people, is evidence of your god, that is fine, just leave us out of it.
Read the rest of his article by scrolling down from the URL at the top
of this discussion.
I would like to hear from some atheists who have experienced a core
NDE, especially including the all-loving being of light and the life
review.
It would also be interesting to hear from any former atheists /
agnostics who had NDEs.
Is J.D. Bourdon's contention that the NDE almost always "cures" atheism
correct?
I only know of two atheists, who have experienced your "NDE". Both are still
atheist: But then, both are also, reasonably well educated.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 07:29:18 PM |
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On 28 Aug 2005 10:37:45 -0700, wrote:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
Ah, atheists. Go on any religious discussion board, and you'll find
just as many atheists as believers posting their beliefs.
No, atheists - at least the online ones - are not shy about how much
they loathe that god they don't believe exists, a loathing extended to
the true religious believers. I share their disbelief in that god,
A lie is a very poor way to introduce yourself.
yet
feel the believers are at least trying to find their way - but that's
not my point.
Millions of people have had NDEs. I've yet to see any indication that
people who are atheists have less or more NDE's than other people. It
seems certain millions of atheists have had NDEs.
So where are the NDE atheists? Why aren't they out there proclaiming
the NDE is a hallucination? "
The effects of anoxia on the human brain are entirely adequate to
explain NDEs without appealing to the supernatural.
---
"This is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause"
- Padme Amidala, Episode III
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| User: "LP" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 11:50:26 PM |
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On 28 Aug 2005 10:37:45 -0700, wrote:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
Ah, atheists. Go on any religious discussion board, and you'll find
just as many atheists as believers posting their beliefs.
No, atheists - at least the online ones - are not shy about how much
they loathe that god they don't believe exists, a loathing extended to
the true religious believers. I share their disbelief in that god, yet
feel the believers are at least trying to find their way - but that's
not my point.
Millions of people have had NDEs. I've yet to see any indication that
people who are atheists have less or more NDE's than other people. It
seems certain millions of atheists have had NDEs.
So where are the NDE atheists? Why aren't they out there proclaiming
the NDE is a hallucination? "
Read the rest of his article by scrolling down from the URL at the top
of this discussion.
I would like to hear from some atheists who have experienced a core
NDE, especially including the all-loving being of light and the life
review.
It would also be interesting to hear from any former atheists /
agnostics who had NDEs.
Is J.D. Bourdon's contention that the NDE almost always "cures" atheism
correct?
Near-Death Experiences: In or out of the body?
SUSAN BLACKMORE
Published in Skeptical Inquirer 1991, 16, 34-45
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/si91nde.html
What is it like to die? Although most of us fear death to a greater or
lesser extent, there are now more and more people who have "come back"
from states close to death and have told stories of usually very
pleasant and even joyful experiences at death’s door.
For many experiencers, their adventures seem unquestionably to provide
evidence for life after death, and the profound effects the experience
can have on them is just added confirmation. By contrast, for many
scientists these experiences are just hallucinations produced by the
dying brain and of no more interest than an especially vivid dream.
So which is right? Are near-death experiences (NDEs) the prelude to
our life after death or the very last experience we have before
oblivion? I shall argue that neither is quite right: NDEs provide no
evidence for life after death, and we can best understand them by
looking at neurochemistry, physiology, and psychology; but they are
much more interesting than any dream. They seem completely real and
can transform people’s lives. Any satisfactory theory has to
understand that too—and that leads us to questions about minds,
selves, and the nature of consciousness.
Deathbed Experiences
Toward the end of the last century the physical sciences and the new
theory of evolution were making great progress, but many people felt
that science was forcing out the traditional ideas of the spirit and
soul. Spiritualism began to flourish, and people flocked to mediums to
get in contact with their dead friends and relatives "on the other
side." Spiritualists claimed, and indeed still claim, to have found
proof of survival.
In 1882, the Society for Psychical Research was founded, and serious
research on the phenomena began; but convincing evidence for survival
is still lacking over one hundred years later (Blackmore 1988). In
1926, a psychical researcher and Fellow of the Royal Society, Sir
William Barrett (1926), published a little book on deathbed visions.
The dying apparently saw other worlds before they died and even saw
and spoke to the dead. There were cases of music heard at the time of
death and reports of attendants actually seeing the spirit leave the
body.
With modern medical techniques, deathbed visions like these have
become far less common. In those days people died at home with little
or no medication and surrounded by their family and friends. Today
most people die in the hospital and all too often alone. Paradoxically
it is also improved medicine that has led to an increase in quite a
different kind of report— that of the near-death experience.
Close Brushes with Death
Resuscitation from ever more serious heart failure has provided
accounts of extraordinary experiences (although this is not the only
cause of NDEs). These remained largely ignored until about 15 years
ago, when Raymond Moody (1975), an American physician, published his
best-selling Life After Life. He had talked with many people who had
"come back from death," and he put together an account of a typical
NDE. In this idealized experience a person hears himself pronounced
dead. Then comes a loud buzzing or ringing noise and a long, dark
tunnel. He can see his own body from a distance and watch what is
happening. Soon he meets others and a "being of light" who shows him a
playback of events from his life and helps him to evaluate it. At some
point he gets to a barrier and knows that he has to go back. Even
though he feels joy, love, and peace there, he returns to his body and
life. Later he tries to tell others; but they don’t understand, and he
soon gives up. Nevertheless the experience deeply affects him,
especially his views about life and death.
Many scientists reacted with disbelief. They assumed Moody was at
least exaggerating, but he claimed that no one had noticed the
experiences before because the patients were too frightened to talk
about them. The matter was soon settled by further research. One
cardiologist had talked to more than 2,000 people over a period of
nearly 20 years and claimed that more than half reported Moody-type
experiences (Schoonmaker 1979). In 1982, a Gallup poll found that
about 1 in 7 adult Americans had been close to death and about 1 in 20
had had an NDE. It appeared that Moody, at least in outline, was
right. In my own research I have come across numerous reports like
this one, sent to me by a woman from Cyprus:
An emergency gastrectomy was performed. On the 4th day following that
operation I went into shock and became unconscious for several hours.
.. . Although thought to be unconscious, I remembered, for years
afterwards, the entire, detailed conversation that passed between the
surgeon and anaesthetist present.... I was lying above my own body,
totally free of pain, and looking down at my own self with compassion
for the agony I could see on the face; I was floating peacefully Then
.. . . I was going elsewhere, floating towards a dark, but not
frightening, curtain-like area.... Then I felt total peace.
Suddenly it all changed—I was slammed back into my body again, very
much aware of the agony again.
Within a few years some of the basic questions were being answered.
Kenneth Ring (1980), at the University of Connecticut, surveyed 102
people who had come close to death and found almost 50 percent had had
what he called a "core experience." He broke this into five stages:
peace, body separation, entering the darkness (which is like the
tunnel), seeing the light, and entering the light. He found that the
later stages were reached by fewer people, which seems to imply that
there is an ordered set of experiences waiting to unfold.
One interesting question is whether NDEs are culture specific. What
little research there is suggests that in other cultures NDEs have
basically the same structure, although religious background seems to
influence the way it is interpreted. A few NDEs have even been
recorded in children. It is interesting to note that nowadays children
are more likely to see living friends than those who have died,
presumably because their playmates only rarely die of diseases like
scarlet fever or smallpox (Morse et al. 1986).
Perhaps more important is whether you have to be nearly dead to have
an NDE. The answer is clearly no (e.g., Morse et al. 1989). Many very
similar experiences are recorded of people who have taken certain
drugs, were extremely tired, or, occasionally, were just carrying on
their ordinary activities.
I must emphasize that these experiences seem completely real—even more
real (whatever that may mean) than everyday life. The tunnel
experience is not like just imagining going along a tunnel. The view
from out of the body seems completely realistic, not like a dream, but
as though you really are up there and looking down. Few people
experience such profound emotions and insight again during their
lifetimes. They do not say, "I’ve been hallucinating," "I imagined I
went to heaven," or "Can I tell you about my lovely dream?" They are
more likely to say, "I have been out of my body" or "I saw Grandma in
heaven."
Since not everyone who comes close to death has an NDE, it is
interesting to ask what sort of people are more likely to have them.
Certainly you don’t need to be mentally unstable. NDEers do not differ
from others in terms of their psychological health or background.
Moreover, the NDE does seem to produce profound and positive
personality changes (Ring 1984). After this extraordinary experience
people claim that they are no longer so motivated by greed and
material achievement but are more concerned about other people and
their needs. Any theory of the NDE needs to account for this effect.
Explanations of the NDE
Astral Projection and the Next World: Could we have another body that
is the vehicle of consciousness and leaves the physical body at death
to go on to another world? This, essentially, is the doctrine of
astral projection. In various forms it is very popular and appears in
a great deal of New Age and occult literature.
One reason may be that out-of-body experiences (OBEs) are quite
common, quite apart from their role in NDEs. Surveys have shown that
anywhere from 8 percent (in Iceland) to as much as 50 percent (in
special groups, such as marijuana users) have had OBEs at some time
during their lives. In my own survey of residents of Bristol I found
12 percent. Typically these people had been resting or lying down and
suddenly felt they had left their bodies, usually for no more than a
minute or two (Blackmore 1984).
A survey of more than 50 different cultures showed that almost all of
them believe in a spirit or soul that could leave the body (Shells
1978). So both the OBE and the belief in another body are common, but
what does this mean? Is it just that we cannot bring ourselves to
believe that we are nothing more than a mortal body and that death is
the end? Or is there really another body?
You might think that such a theory has no place in science and ought
to be ignored. I disagree. The only ideas that science can do nothing
with are the purely metaphysical ones—ideas that have no measurable
consequences and no testable predictions. But if a theory makes
predictions, however bizarre, then it can be tested.
The theory of astral projection is, at least in some forms, testable.
In the earliest experiments mediums claimed they were able to project
their astral bodies to distant rooms and see what was happening. They
claimed not to taste bitter aloes on their real tongues, but
immediately screwed up their faces in disgust when the substance was
placed on their (invisible) astral tongues. Unfortunately these
experiments were not properly controlled (Blackmore 1982~.
In other experiments, dying people were weighed to try to detect the
astral body as it left. Early this century a weight of about one ounce
was claimed, but as the apparatus became more sensitive the weight
dropped, implying that it was not a real effect. More recent
experiments have used sophisticated detectors of ultraviolet and
infrared, magnetic flux or field strength, temperature, or weight to
try to capture the astral body of someone having an out-of-body
experience. They have even used animals and human "detectors," but no
one has yet succeeded in detecting anything reliably (Morris et al.
1978).
If something really leaves the body in OBEs, then you might expect it
to be able to see at a distance, in other words to have extrasensory
perception (ESP). There have been several experiments with concealed
targets. One success was Tart’s subject, who lay on a bed with a
five-digit number on a shelf above it (Tart 1968). During the night
she had an OBE and correctly reported the number, but critics argued
that she could have climbed out of the bed to look. Apart from this
one, the experiments tend, like so many in parapsychology, to provide
equivocal results and no clear signs of any ESP.
So, this theory has been tested but seems to have failed its tests. If
there really were astral bodies I would have expected us to have found
something out about them by now—other than how hard it is to track
them down!
In addition there are major theoretical objections to the idea of
astral bodies. If you imagine that the person has gone to another
world, perhaps along some "real" tunnel, then you have to ask what
relationship there is between this world and the other one. If the
other world is an extension of the physical, then it ought to be
observable and measurable. The astral body, astral world, and tunnel
ought to be detectable in some way, and we ought to be able to say
where exactly the tunnel is going. The fact that we can’t, leads many
people to say the astral world is "on another plane," at a "higher
level of vibration," and the like. But unless you can specify just
what these mean the ideas are completely empty, even though they may
sound appealing. Of course we can never prove that astral bodies don’t
exist, but my guess is that they probably don’t and that this theory
is not a useful way to understand OBEs.
Birth and the NDE:
Another popular theory makes dying analogous with being born: that the
out-of-body experience is literally just that— reliving the moment
when you emerged from your mother’s body. The tunnel is the birth
canal and the white light is the light of the world into which you
were born. Even the being of light can be "explained" as an attendant
at the birth.
This theory was proposed by Stanislav Grof and Joan Halifax (1977) and
popularized by the astronomer Carl Sagan (1979), but it is pitifully
inadequate to explain the NDE. For a start the newborn infant would
not see anything like a tunnel as it was being born. The birth canal
is stretched and compressed and the baby usually forced through it
with the top of its head, not with its eyes (which are closed anyway)
pointing forward. Also it does not have the mental skills to recognize
the people around, and these capacities change so much during growing
that adults cannot reconstruct what it was like to be an infant.
"Hypnotic regression to past lives" is another popular claim. In fact
much research shows that people who have been hypnotically regressed
give the appearance of acting like a baby or a child, but it is no
more than acting. For example, they don’t make drawings like a real
five-year-old would do but like an adult imagines children do. Their
vocabulary is too large and in general they overestimate the abilities
of children at any given age. There is no evidence (even if the idea
made sense) of their "really" going back in time.
Of course the most important question is whether this theory could be
tested, and to some extent it can. For example, it predicts that
people born by Caesarean section should not have the same tunnel
experiences and OBEs. I conducted a survey of people born normally and
those born by Caesarean (190 and 36 people, respectively). Almost
exactly equal percentages of both groups had had tunnel experiences
(36 percent) and OBEs (29 percent). I have not compared the type of
birth of people coming close to death, but this would provide further
evidence (Blackmore 1982b).
In response to these findings some people have argued that it is not
one’s own birth that is relived but the idea of birth in general.
However, this just reduces the theory to complete vacuousness.
Just Hallucinations:
Perhaps we should give up and conclude that all the experiences are
"just imagination" or "nothing but hallucinations." However, this is
the weakest theory of all. The experiences must, in some sense, be
hallucinations, but this is not, on its own, any explanation. We have
to ask why are they these kinds of hallucinations? Why tunnels?
Some say the tunnel is a symbolic representation of the gateway to
another world. But then why always a tunnel and not, say, a gate,
doorway, or even the great River Styx? Why the light at the end of the
tunnel? And why always above the body, not below it? I have no
objection to the theory that the experiences are hallucinations. I
only object to the idea that you can explain them by saying, "They are
just hallucinations." This explains nothing. A viable theory would
answer these questions without dismissing the experiences. That, even
if only in tentative form, is what I shall try to provide.
The Physiology of the Tunnel:
Tunnels do not only occur near death. They are also experienced in
epilepsy and migraine, when falling asleep, meditating, or just
relaxing, with pressure on both eyeballs, and with certain drugs, such
as LSD, psilocybin, and mescaline. I have experienced them many times
myself. It is as though the whole world becomes a rushing, roaring
tunnel and you are flying along it toward a bright light at the end.
No doubt many readers have also been there, for surveys show that
about a third of people have—like this terrified man of 28 who had
just had the anesthetic for a circumcision.
I seemed to be hauled at "lightning speed" in a direct line tunnel
into outer space; (not a floating sensation . . .) but like a rocket
at a terrific speed. I appeared to have left my body.
In the 1930s, Heinrich Klüver, at the University of Chicago, noted
four form constants in hallucinations: the tunnel, the spiral, the
lattice or grating, and the cobweb. Their origin probably lies in the
structure of the visual cortex, the part of the brain that processes
visual information. Imagine that the outside world is mapped onto the
back of the eye (on the retina), and then again in the cortex. The
mathematics of this mapping (at least to a reasonable approximation)
is well known.
Jack Cowan, a neurobiologist at the University of Chicago, has used
this mapping to account for the tunnel (Cowan 1982). Brain activity is
normally kept stable by some cells inhibiting others. Disinhibition
(the reduction of this inhibitory activity) produces too much activity
in the brain. This can occur near death (because of lack of oxygen) or
with drugs like LSD, which interfere with inhibition. Cowan uses an
analogy with fluid mechanics to argue that disinhibition will induce
stripes of activity that move across the cortex. Using the mapping it
can easily be shown that stripes in the cortex would appear like
concentric rings or spirals in the visual world. In other words, if
you have stripes in the cortex you will seem to see a tunnel-like
pattern of spirals or rings.
This theory is important in showing how the structure of the brain
could produce the same hallucination for everyone. However, I was
dubious about the idea of these moving stripes, and also Cowan’s
theory doesn’t readily explain the bright light at the center. So Tom
Troscianko and I, at the University of Bristol, tried to develop a
simpler theory (Blackmore and Troscianko 1989). The most obvious thing
about the representation in the cortex is that there are lots of cells
representing the center of the visual field but very few for the
edges. This means that you can see small things very clearly in the
center, but if they are out at the edges you cannot. We took just this
simple fact as a starting point and used a computer to simulate what
would happen when you have gradually increasing electrical noise in
the visual cortex.
The computer program starts with thinly spread dots of light, mapped
in the same way as the cortex, with more toward the middle and very
few at the edges. Gradually the number of dots increases, mimicking
the increasing noise. Now the center begins to look like a white blob
and the outer edges gradually get more and more dots. And so it
expands until eventually the whole screen is filled with light. The
appearance is just like a dark speckly tunnel with a white light at
the end, and the light grows bigger and bigger (or nearer and nearer)
until it fills the whole screen. (See Figure 1.)
If it seems odd that such a simple picture can give the impression
that you are moving, consider two points. First, it is known that
random movements in the periphery of the visual field are more likely
to be interpreted by the brain as outward than inward movements
(Georgeson and Harris 1978). Second, the brain infers our own movement
to a great extent from what we see. Therefore, presented with an
apparently growing patch of flickering white light your brain will
easily interpret it as yourself moving forward into a tunnel.
The theory also makes a prediction about NDEs in the blind. If they
are blind because of problems in the eye but have a normal cortex,
then they too should see tunnels. But if their blindness stems from a
faulty or damaged cortex, they should not. These predictions have yet
to be tested.
According to this kind of theory there is, of course, no real tunnel.
Nevertheless there is a real physical cause of the tunnel experience.
It is noise in the visual cortex. This way we can explain the origin
of the tunnel without just dismissing the experiences and without
needing to invent other bodies or other worlds.
Out of the Body Experiences:
Like tunnels, OBEs are not confined to near death. They too can occur
when just relaxing and falling asleep, with meditation, and in
epilepsy and migraine. They can also, at least by a few people, be
induced at will. I have been interested in OBEs since I had a long and
dramatic experience myself (Blackmore 1982a).
It is important to remember that these experiences seem quite real.
People don’t describe them as dreams or fantasies but as events that
actually happened. This is, I presume, why they seek explanations in
terms of other bodies or other worlds.
However, we have seen how poorly the astral projection and birth
theories cope with OBEs. What we need is a theory that involves no
unmeasurable entities or untestable other worlds but explains why the
experiences happen; and why they seem so real.
I would start by asking why anything seems real. You might think this
is obvious—after all, the things we see out there are real aren’t
they? Well no, in a sense they aren’t. As perceiving creatures all we
know is what our senses tell us. And our senses tell us what is "out
there" by constructing models of the world with ourselves in it. The
whole of the world "out there" and our own bodies are really
constructions of our minds. Yet we are sure, all the time, that this
construction—if you like, this "model of reality"—is "real" while the
other fleeting thoughts we have are unreal. We call the rest of them
daydreams, imagination, fantasies, and so on. Our brains have no
trouble distinguishing "reality" from "imagination." But this
distinction is not given. It is one the brain has to make for itself
by deciding which of its own models represents the world "out there."
I suggest it does this by comparing all the models it has at any time
and choosing the most stable one as "reality."
This will normally work very well. The model created by the senses is
the best and most stable the system has. It is obviously "reality,"
while that image I have of the bar I’m going to go to later is
unstable and brief. The choice is easy. By comparison, when you are
almost asleep, very frightened, or nearly dying, the model from the
senses will be confused and unstable. If you are under terrible stress
or suffering oxygen deprivation, then the choice won’t be so easy. All
the models will be unstable.
So what will happen now? Possibly the tunnel being created by noise in
the visual cortex will be the most stable model and so, according to
my supposition, this will seem real. Fantasies and imagery might
become more stable than the sensory model, and so seem real. The
system will have lost input control.
What then should a sensible biological system do to get back to
normal? I would suggest that it could try to ask itself—as it
were—"Where am I? What is happening?" Even a person under severe
stress will have some memory left. They might recall the accident, or
know that they were in hospital for an operation, or remember the pain
of the heart attack. So they will try to reconstruct, from what little
they can remember, what is happening.
Now we know something very interesting about memory models. Often they
are constructed in a bird’s-eye view. That is, the events or scenes
are seen as though from above. If you find this strange, try to
remember the last time you went to a pub or the last time you walked
along the seashore. Where are "you" looking from in this recalled
scene? If you are looking from above you will see what I mean.
So my explanation of the OBE becomes clear. A memory model in
bird’s-eye view has taken over from the sensory model. It seems
perfectly real because it is the best model the system has got at the
time. Indeed, it seems real for just the same reason anything ever
seems real.
This theory of the OBE leads to many testable predictions, for
example, that people who habitually use bird’s-eye views should be
more likely to have OBEs. Both Harvey Irwin (1986), an Australian
psychologist, and myself (Blackmore 1987) have found that people who
dream as though they were spectators have more OBEs, although there
seems to be no difference for the waking use of different viewpoints.
I have also found that people who can more easily switch viewpoints in
their imagination are also more likely to report OBEs.
Of course this theory says that the OBE world is only a memory model.
It should only match the real world when the person has already known
about something or can deduce it from available information. This
presents a big challenge for research on near death. Some researchers
claim that people near death can actually see things that they
couldn’t possibly have known about. For example, the American
cardiologist Michael Sabom (1982) claims that patients reported the
exact behavior of needles on monitoring apparatus when they had their
eyes closed and appeared to be unconscious. Further, he compared these
descriptions with those of people imagining they were being
resuscitated and found that the real patients gave far more accurate
and detailed descriptions.
There are problems with this comparison. Most important, the people
really being resuscitated could probably feel some of the
manipulations being done on them and hear what was going on. Hearing
is the last sense to be lost and, as you will realize if you ever
listen to radio plays or news, you can imagine a very clear visual
image when you can only hear something. So the dying person could
build up a fairly accurate picture this way. Of course hearing doesn’t
allow you to see the behavior of needles, and so if Sabom is right I
am wrong. We can only await further research to find out.
The Life Review:
The experience of seeing excerpts from your life flash before you is
not really as mysterious as it first seems. It has long been known
that stimulation of cells in the temporal lobe of the brain can
produce instant experiences that seem like the reliving of memories.
Also, temporal-lobe epilepsy can produce similar experiences, and such
seizures can involve other limbic structures in the brain, such as the
amygdala and hippocampus, which are also associated with memory.
Imagine that the noise in the dying brain stimulates cells like this.
The memories will be aroused and, according to my hypothesis, if they
are the most stable model the system has at that time they will seem
real. For the dying person they may well be more stable than the
confused and noisy sensory model.
The link between temporal-lobe epilepsy and the NDE has formed the
basis of a thorough neurobiological model of the NDE (Saavedra-Aguilar
and Gomez-Jeria 1989). They suggest that the brain stress consequent
on the near-death episode leads to the release of neuropeptides and
neurotransmitters (in particular the endogenous endorphins). These
then stimulate the limbic system and other connected areas. In
addition, the effect of the endorphins could account the blissful and
other positive emotional states so often associated with the NDE.
Morse provided evidence that some children deprived of oxygen treated
with opiates did not have NDE-like hallucinations, and he his
colleagues (Morse et al. 1986) have developed a theory based on the
role of the neurotransmitter serotonin, rather than the endorphins.
Research on the neurochemistry of the NDE is just beginning and should
provide us with much more detailed understanding of the life review.
Of course there is more to the review than just memories. The person
feels as though she or he is judging these life events, being shown
their significance and meaning. But this too, I suggest, is not so
very strange. When the normal world of the senses is gone and memories
seem real, our perspective on our life changes. We can no longer be
attached to our plans, hopes, ambitions, and fears, which fade away
and become unimportant, while the past comes to life again. We can
only accept it as it is, and there is no one to judge it but
ourselves. This is, I think, why so many NDEers say they faced their
past life with acceptance and equanimity.
Other Worlds:
Now we come to what might seem the most extraordinary parts of the
NDE; the worlds beyond the tunnel and OBE. But I think you can now see
that they are not so extraordinary at all. In this state the outside
world is no longer real, and inner worlds are. Whatever we can imagine
clearly enough will seem real. And what will we imagine when we know
we are dying? I am sure for many people it is the world they expect or
hope to see. Their minds may turn to people they have known who have
died before them or to the world they hope to enter next. Like the
other images we have been considering, these will seem perfectly real.
Finally, there are those aspects of the NDE that are ineffable—they
cannot be put into words. I suspect that this is because some people
take yet another step, a step into nonbeing. I shall try to explain
this by asking another question. What is consciousness? If you say it
is a thing, another body, a substance, you will only get into the
kinds of difficulty we got into with OBEs. I prefer to say that
consciousness is just what it is like being a mental model. In other
words, all the mental models in any person’s mind are all conscious,
but only one is a model of "me." This is the one that I think of as
myself and to which I relate everything else. It gives a core to my
life. It allows me to think that I am a person, something that lives
on all the time. It allows me to ignore the fact that "I" change from
moment to moment and even disappear every night in sleep.
Now when the brain comes close to death, this model of self may simply
fall apart. Now there is no self. It is a strange and dramatic
experience. For there is no longer an experiencer—yet there is
experience.
This state is obviously hard to describe, for the "you" who is trying
to describe it cannot imagine not being. Yet this profound experience
leaves its mark. The self never seems quite the same again.
The After Effects:
I think we can now see why an essentially physiological event can
change people’s lives so profoundly. The experience has jolted their
usual (and erroneous) view of the relationship between themselves and
the world. We all too easily assume that we are some kind of
persistent entity inhabiting a perishable body. But, as the Buddha
taught we have to see through that illusion. The world is only a
construction of an information-processing system, and the self is too.
I believe that the NDE gives people a glimpse into the nature of their
own minds that is hard to get any other way. Drugs can produce it
temporarily, mystical experiences can do it for rare people, and long
years of practice in meditation or mindfulness can do it. But the NDE
can out of the blue strike anyone and show them what they never knew
before, that their body is only that— a lump of flesh—that they are
not so very important after all. And that is a very freeing and
enlightening experience.
And Afterwards?
If my analysis of the NDE is correct, we can extrapolate to the next
stage. Lack of oxygen first produces increased activity through
disinhibition, but eventually it all stops. Since it is this activity
that produces the mental models that give rise to consciousness, then
all this will cease. There will be no more experience, no more self,
and so that, as far as my constructed self is concerned, is the end.
So, are NDEs in or out of the body? I should say neither, for neither
experiences nor selves have any location. It is finally death that
dissolves the illusion that we are a solid self inside a body.
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/si91nde.html
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| User: "LP" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 11:46:13 PM |
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On 28 Aug 2005 10:37:45 -0700, wrote:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
Ah, atheists. Go on any religious discussion board, and you'll find
just as many atheists as believers posting their beliefs.
No, atheists - at least the online ones - are not shy about how much
they loathe that god they don't believe exists, a loathing extended to
the true religious believers. I share their disbelief in that god, yet
feel the believers are at least trying to find their way - but that's
not my point.
Millions of people have had NDEs. I've yet to see any indication that
people who are atheists have less or more NDE's than other people. It
seems certain millions of atheists have had NDEs.
So where are the NDE atheists? Why aren't they out there proclaiming
the NDE is a hallucination? "
Read the rest of his article by scrolling down from the URL at the top
of this discussion.
I would like to hear from some atheists who have experienced a core
NDE, especially including the all-loving being of light and the life
review.
It would also be interesting to hear from any former atheists /
agnostics who had NDEs.
Is J.D. Bourdon's contention that the NDE almost always "cures" atheism
correct?
The most scientific book on the subject supports atheism.
Dying to Live: Near-Death Experiences (Hardcover)
by Susan Blackmore
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0879758708
Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly
In 1975, James Moody's ground-breaking book Life after Life collected
the anecdotes of people who had come close to death and described the
experience as comforting and transforming. Since then, the
parapsychological, medical and scientific investigations of these
near-death claims have become a small industry. This comprehensive
report, by the author of The Adventures of a Parapsychologist and a
fellow of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of
the Paranormal, collates theories about near-death experience,
challenges the reality of spiritual claims and surveys historical and
cross-cultural attitudes toward death. Blackmore concludes that the
neurological "Dying Brain Hypothesis" better explains the evidence
than the more paranormal "Afterlife Hypothesis." This work is chiefly
of interest to medical professionals; the mysteries of death remain.
Copyright 1993 Reed Business Information, Inc.
From School Library Journal
YA-Well documented and well researched, this volume joins the growing
number of titles about the near-death experience (NDE). Blakemore's
stated purpose is "to explore what psychology, biology and medicine
have to say about death and dying." She refers to the ground-breaking
work of Raymond Moody, author of Life after Life (Bantam, 1988), and
also examines the findings of many others who have studied the NDE.
Numerous interviews with people who have almost died add interest to
this study. The author's impartial treatment of diverse beliefs on the
subject helps readers to see how scientific and spiritual points of
view can coexist. There's much to think about here.
Lyn Knapp, Annandale High School, Fairfax County, VA
Copyright 1994 Reed Business Information, Inc.
From Booklist
Near-death experiences (NDEs) have remarkably similar characteristics
the world over, leading many to cite them as proof of a hereafter.
Blackmore, a British psychologist, carefully reviews the literature
and her own research for something like an opposite claim. NDEs do
indeed have universal aspects, but that's because they manifest the
chemistry of dying brains; what's universal is the brain itself.
Moreover, components of NDEs (such as "tunnels," down which the dying
travel toward bright lights; sensations of well-being; and the
appearance of comforting relatives from the beyond) can also be found
in LSD trips and dreams. Tunnels are the most universal element of
NDEs, but they, too, can be explained as chemical aberrations--brought
on, in this instance, by the distress of optic nerves. Having said all
this, Blackmore goes on to discuss the profound psychological--not to
mention religious--impact NDEs can have on individuals, but clearly
her account is valuable because it looks rationally and with as much
scientific rigor as possible at this strange, almost unmeasurable
phenomenon. John Mort
Near-Death Experiences: In or out of the body?
SUSAN BLACKMORE
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/si91nde.html
Skeptic Dictionary
near-death experience (NDE)
http://skepdic.com/nde.html
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
31 Aug 2005 01:18:02 AM |
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On 28 Aug 2005 10:37:45 -0700, wrote:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
Ah, atheists. Go on any religious discussion board, and you'll find
just as many atheists as believers posting their beliefs.
No, atheists - at least the online ones - are not shy about how much
they loathe that god they don't believe exists, a loathing extended to
the true religious believers. I share their disbelief in that god, yet
feel the believers are at least trying to find their way - but that's
not my point.
Oh? You had a point?
This may well be a serious question. However, if you're looking for
serious answers, you might want to try being a bit less condescending.
Religion is sort of like wearing lifts in your shoes. If it
makes you feel better, fine. Just don't ask me to wear
your shoes.
~ George Carlin ~
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| User: "Jos Flachs - skip the aa" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
29 Aug 2005 12:09:48 PM |
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On 28 Aug 2005 10:37:45 -0700, wrote:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
Ah, atheists. Go on any religious discussion board, and you'll find
just as many atheists as believers posting their beliefs.
No, atheists - at least the online ones - are not shy about how much
they loathe that god they don't believe exists, a loathing extended to
the true religious believers. I share their disbelief in that god, yet
feel the believers are at least trying to find their way - but that's
not my point.
Millions of people have had NDEs. I've yet to see any indication that
people who are atheists have less or more NDE's than other people. It
seems certain millions of atheists have had NDEs.
So where are the NDE atheists? Why aren't they out there proclaiming
the NDE is a hallucination? "
Why should we?
Read the rest of his article by scrolling down from the URL at the top
of this discussion.
I would like to hear from some atheists who have experienced a core
NDE, especially including the all-loving being of light and the life
review.
An all-loving being of light? Might that be Thomas Edison?
You seriously ask, with a straight face, if atheists have experienced
an all-loving light bulb?
It would also be interesting to hear from any former atheists /
agnostics who had NDEs.
Is J.D. Bourdon's contention that the NDE almost always "cures" atheism
correct?
No. Entirely wrong. Religious persons experience NDE exactly as their
doctrine requires:
xtians see visions of heaven/hell
moslims too
hindus and buddhists of the next life
Conclusion: it is all between the ears.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
01 Sep 2005 08:27:38 PM |
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On 28 Aug 2005 10:37:45 -0700, wrote:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
JD is terminally disconnected from reality and isn't even that
educated.
[]
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
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| User: "cloim" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 07:11:29 PM |
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On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 10:37:45 -0700, sdaconsulting wrote:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
<snip>
"NDE experiencers have every reason to think they'll be considered
unbalanced if they express what they found. By contrast, an atheist
would have zero reluctance to say, in effect, "I was right all along."
That makes no sense to me.
And why would any believer accept that it was an hallucination? They won't
accept physical and logical inconsistencies in their own beliefs, why
would they be swayed by the "testimony" of an atheist?
I'm not swayed by personal, emotional, convictions on "religious" matters.
I would not offer such an argument if I had one.
It's the people who are fundamentally affected by the experience that
loudly proclaim it. For others, it's just a moment in passing.
I've never had an NDE. I have experienced other forms of "supernatural"
experiences. They did not fundamentally affect me. I do not view them as
"evidence" of "supernatural" existence. And cannot see any way to use them
as "evidence" against supernaturalism.
Read the rest of his article by scrolling down from the URL at the top
of this discussion.
I would like to hear from some atheists who have experienced a core
NDE, especially including the all-loving being of light and the life
review.
It would also be interesting to hear from any former atheists /
agnostics who had NDEs.
Is J.D. Bourdon's contention that the NDE almost always "cures" atheism
correct?
His arguments are hot air.
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Where are the atheist NDE experiencers? |
28 Aug 2005 06:00:43 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet (sdaconsulting@nc.rr.com)
made the light shine upon us with this:
From http://www.nde-paradigm.com/1.html
"where are the atheists?... By JDBourdon
Ah, atheists. Go on any religious discussion board, and you'll find
just as many atheists as believers posting their beliefs.
No, atheists - at least the online ones - are not shy about how much
they loathe that god they don't believe exists, a loathing extended to
the true religious believers. I share their disbelief in that god, yet
feel the believers are at least trying to find their way - but that's
not my point.
Millions of people have had NDEs. I've yet to see any indication that
people who are atheists have less or more NDE's than other people. It
seems certain millions of atheists have had NDEs.
So where are the NDE atheists? Why aren't they out there proclaiming
the NDE is a hallucination? "
Read the rest of his article by scrolling down from the URL at the top
of this discussion.
I would like to hear from some atheists who have experienced a core
NDE, especially including the all-loving being of light and the life
review.
It would also be interesting to hear from any former atheists /
agnostics who had NDEs.
I don't know if you could call my experience an NDE, but as a child I
fell a short distance and landed on my head. The next instant I woke up
in bed. I figure it would have taken ten to fifteen minutes for my
brother to get my parents, then for them to carry me to my room and put
me in my bed. I experienced it as a segment of time that did not exist.
It was like skipping a trac | |
