| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Elroy Willis" |
| Date: |
01 Sep 2005 11:28:35 AM |
| Object: |
Where is West? What is West? |
Some questions I currently have unanswered/unclear in my mind...
Is "The West" the same thing as "Christendom" to the majority of
Muslims or Islamic people? Or to most other people, regardless of
their religions?
Where does East start and West end?
Were the Spanish conquistadors just as west as the most western state
here in the US when they were back at home?
Is "The West" all capitalistic countries, or all democratic countries,
or all countries conquered by Christianity?
Is there a simple short answer to the above questions?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
01 Sep 2005 12:02:23 PM |
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On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:28:35 GMT in alt.atheism, Elroy Willis (Elroy
Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Some questions I currently have unanswered/unclear in my mind...
Is "The West" the same thing as "Christendom" to the majority of
Muslims or Islamic people? Or to most other people, regardless of
their religions?
Where does East start and West end?
Were the Spanish conquistadors just as west as the most western state
here in the US when they were back at home?
Is "The West" all capitalistic countries, or all democratic countries,
or all countries conquered by Christianity?
Is there a simple short answer to the above questions?
When that's answered, can we get on to Brandt's North/South divide?
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
01 Sep 2005 11:30:49 AM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Is there a simple short answer to the above questions?
"everyone else"
Jim
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
01 Sep 2005 11:36:18 AM |
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J Forbes <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Is there a simple short answer to the above questions?
"everyone else"
What's the current definition of an easterner, and where does east
start, exactly?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
01 Sep 2005 11:57:52 AM |
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Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
news:0abeh1h950efjm6gfulkmvoji8ufnf0sm6@4ax.com:
J Forbes <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Is there a simple short answer to the above questions?
"everyone else"
What's the current definition of an easterner, and where does east
start, exactly?
There isn't a definite answer to that.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
I think if we had a three-word message right now it’d be, ‘We can do
better.’
- Howard Dean
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
01 Sep 2005 01:15:30 PM |
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On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:36:18 GMT, in alt.atheism , Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> in
<0abeh1h950efjm6gfulkmvoji8ufnf0sm6@4ax.com> wrote:
J Forbes <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Is there a simple short answer to the above questions?
"everyone else"
What's the current definition of an easterner, and where does east
start, exactly?
That a sentence is grammatically correct does not mean it is a well
formed question. You seem to be searching for a cultural equivalent to
"What is North of the North pole".
"East" has lots of different meanings. In NYC in the summer it means
the Hamptons. In CA it means NY. Or Asia. The West can mean Europe. Or
Christian nations (and so includes Australia and the U.S.). Or it can
mean First World countries and so include Japan and Korea. Or it can
mean "the place you go when you die". Or it can mean that place in
the direction where the Sun sets.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
01 Sep 2005 02:45:36 PM |
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Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> in
J Forbes <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Is there a simple short answer to the above questions?
"everyone else"
What's the current definition of an easterner, and where does east
start, exactly?
That a sentence is grammatically correct does not mean it is a well
formed question. You seem to be searching for a cultural equivalent to
"What is North of the North pole".
"East" has lots of different meanings. In NYC in the summer it means
the Hamptons. In CA it means NY. Or Asia. The West can mean Europe. Or
Christian nations (and so includes Australia and the U.S.). Or it can
mean First World countries and so include Japan and Korea. Or it can
mean "the place you go when you die". Or it can mean that place in
the direction where the Sun sets.
West of the Jordan river seems to be something worth talking about,
don't you think?
That's the land that was supposedly given to the Jews by their
pretended invisible god... One day, the Jewish priests stepped up to
the Jordan river, carrying their magical golden ark, and touched their
holy toes onto the bank of the river, and it suddenly, MAGICALLY dried
up, just like the Red Sea was supposed to have dried up in the nick of
time, and the Jews crossed over into the new area WEST of the Jordan
river, and the land was supposed to be theirs to colonize, by order of
the Jewish god, right?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Brian E. Clark" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
01 Sep 2005 08:07:10 PM |
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In article <38aeh15avr8rr5ejd3d847tn4uci23u299@4ax.com>, Elroy
Willis said...
Some questions I currently have unanswered/unclear in my mind...
Is "The West" the same thing as "Christendom" to the majority of
Muslims or Islamic people? Or to most other people, regardless of
their religions?
Hmm.
Traditionally "the West" comprised most of Europe and, later,
the Western Hemisphere also. In the second half the 20th
Century, the West meant Europe and its colonies, apart from the
areas under the control of the USSR.
These days many Islamic writers seem to use the word "West"
primarily to designate those European nations and their colonies
which have participated in the rape of the third world,
particularly the Middle East and Africa.
(There are all sorts of complications, naturally. For instance,
the word "Western" was applied to Christian churches which used
Latin in their liturgy. But that's not the sense of the word in
which you were interested, I suppose.)
Where does East start and West end?
"Take me back to Constantinople." Well, then came the Turks...
The axial designations no longer apply strictly. Japan is
considered, for all practical purposes, to be an honorary
Western nation. Australia is east of most of the East, but it's
still part of the West. (The old saying is dead; not only have
the East/West "twain" met, they've overlapped.)
Were the Spanish conquistadors just as west as the most
western state here in the US when they were back at home?
That's a trick question. California, New Mexico, Arizona, etc.
were once part of the Spanish Empire. ;-)
Is "The West" all capitalistic countries, or all democratic
countries, or all countries conquered by Christianity?
None of the above.
Is there a simple short answer to the above questions?
Is there a simple, short answer to any question pertaining to
1500 years of continent-spanning conflict?
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
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| User: "chibiabos" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
01 Sep 2005 12:53:55 PM |
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In article <38aeh15avr8rr5ejd3d847tn4uci23u299@4ax.com>, Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Some questions I currently have unanswered/unclear in my mind...
Is "The West" the same thing as "Christendom" to the majority of
Muslims or Islamic people? Or to most other people, regardless of
their religions?
Where does East start and West end?
Were the Spanish conquistadors just as west as the most western state
here in the US when they were back at home?
Is "The West" all capitalistic countries, or all democratic countries,
or all countries conquered by Christianity?
Is there a simple short answer to the above questions?
The "West" is a colloquiallism for the more antiquated term the
"Occident," as opposed to the "Orient," and refers generally to
Greco-Europe and the largely European cultures in the western
hemisphere (the Americas, etc.).
"Occident" is from the Old English for "falling down," and, in this
case, refers to the sun, which appears to fall as it sets in the west.
Of course, many cultures do not fall into either category, Occidental
or Oriental, and some have flavors of both, so the term is necessarily
vague and should be used only when the intent is clear from the
context.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_world
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orient
-chib
--
Member of SMASH
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
(email: change out to in)
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
02 Sep 2005 09:31:16 AM |
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chibiabos <chib@outreach.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Some questions I currently have unanswered/unclear in my mind...
Is "The West" the same thing as "Christendom" to the majority of
Muslims or Islamic people? Or to most other people, regardless of
their religions?
Where does East start and West end?
Were the Spanish conquistadors just as west as the most western state
here in the US when they were back at home?
Is "The West" all capitalistic countries, or all democratic countries,
or all countries conquered by Christianity?
Is there a simple short answer to the above questions?
The "West" is a colloquiallism for the more antiquated term the
"Occident," as opposed to the "Orient," and refers generally to
Greco-Europe and the largely European cultures in the western
hemisphere (the Americas, etc.).
"Occident" is from the Old English for "falling down,"
Same as falling down during an Accident?
and, in this case, refers to the sun, which appears to fall as it sets in
the west.
Makes sense.
Of course, many cultures do not fall into either category, Occidental
or Oriental, and some have flavors of both, so the term is necessarily
vague and should be used only when the intent is clear from the
context.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_world
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orient
I should have checked wiki first, but I decided to create a new thread
instead.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Uncle Buck" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
01 Sep 2005 09:19:53 PM |
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On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:28:35 GMT, Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:
Some questions I currently have unanswered/unclear in my mind...
Is "The West" the same thing as "Christendom" to the majority of
Muslims or Islamic people? Or to most other people, regardless of
their religions?
Where does East start and West end?
Were the Spanish conquistadors just as west as the most western state
here in the US when they were back at home?
Is "The West" all capitalistic countries, or all democratic countries,
or all countries conquered by Christianity?
Is there a simple short answer to the above questions?
Ah, yes, as I'd meant to tell you once upon a time - you're right. We
_do_ have something in common wrt "excessive curiosity". ;-)
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=
http://surrenderingtothefall.blogspot.com
~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o
"I absolutely detest it when people quote
themselves." - Me
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
01 Sep 2005 01:11:49 PM |
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On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:28:35 GMT, in alt.atheism , Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> in
<38aeh15avr8rr5ejd3d847tn4uci23u299@4ax.com> wrote:
Some questions I currently have unanswered/unclear in my mind...
Is "The West" the same thing as "Christendom" to the majority of
Muslims or Islamic people? Or to most other people, regardless of
their religions?
Why in the world are you asking this in an atheist newsgroup?
Where does East start and West end?
Were the Spanish conquistadors just as west as the most western state
here in the US when they were back at home?
Is "The West" all capitalistic countries, or all democratic countries,
or all countries conquered by Christianity?
Is there a simple short answer to the above questions?
Yes, learn that a given string can have multiple meanings which can
change with context.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
01 Sep 2005 01:33:21 PM |
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Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> in
Some questions I currently have unanswered/unclear in my mind...
Is "The West" the same thing as "Christendom" to the majority of
Muslims or Islamic people? Or to most other people, regardless of
their religions?
Why in the world are you asking this in an atheist newsgroup?
Where does East start and West end?
Were the Spanish conquistadors just as west as the most western state
here in the US when they were back at home?
Is "The West" all capitalistic countries, or all democratic countries,
or all countries conquered by Christianity?
Is there a simple short answer to the above questions?
Yes, learn that a given string can have multiple meanings which can
change with context.
Indeed. I was mostly interested in what the Muslim suicide bombers
are attacking when they claim to be attacking the west. What do they
mean by west in context, in your opinion?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
01 Sep 2005 02:01:34 PM |
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Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
news:96ieh190iag86p98a60r8cg1tji93bga62@4ax.com:
Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> in
Some questions I currently have unanswered/unclear in my mind...
Is "The West" the same thing as "Christendom" to the majority of
Muslims or Islamic people? Or to most other people, regardless of
their religions?
Why in the world are you asking this in an atheist newsgroup?
Where does East start and West end?
Were the Spanish conquistadors just as west as the most western
state here in the US when they were back at home?
Is "The West" all capitalistic countries, or all democratic
countries, or all countries conquered by Christianity?
Is there a simple short answer to the above questions?
Yes, learn that a given string can have multiple meanings which can
change with context.
Indeed. I was mostly interested in what the Muslim suicide bombers
are attacking when they claim to be attacking the west. What do they
mean by west in context, in your opinion?
To Islamists "The west" is "everybody who doesn't submit to our brand of
Islam". The Arabic term is "Dar al-Harb", literally "The House of War"
and it includes countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt too.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
I think if we had a three-word message right now it’d be, ‘We can do
better.’ - Howard Dean
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
02 Sep 2005 09:15:45 AM |
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
<snip>
Indeed. I was mostly interested in what the Muslim suicide bombers
are attacking when they claim to be attacking the west. What do they
mean by west in context, in your opinion?
To Islamists "The west" is "everybody who doesn't submit to our brand of
Islam". The Arabic term is "Dar al-Harb", literally "The House of War"
and it includes countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt too.
Does it involve capitalism at all, in your opinion?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
02 Sep 2005 09:41:50 AM |
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Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
news:sdngh191tgedumjsd30fo885albuqs1a1b@4ax.com:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
<snip>
Indeed. I was mostly interested in what the Muslim suicide bombers
are attacking when they claim to be attacking the west. What do
they mean by west in context, in your opinion?
To Islamists "The west" is "everybody who doesn't submit to our brand
of Islam". The Arabic term is "Dar al-Harb", literally "The House of
War" and it includes countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt too.
Does it involve capitalism at all, in your opinion?
In the sense of "putting other gods next to Allah". Anything that isn't
part of the original traditions of Islam is "making an authority other
than Mohammed (praise be upon him)" who is the final prophet of God.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
I think if we had a three-word message right now it’d be, ‘We can do
better.’
- Howard Dean
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
02 Sep 2005 10:01:51 AM |
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On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:15:45 GMT, in alt.atheism , Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> in
<sdngh191tgedumjsd30fo885albuqs1a1b@4ax.com> wrote:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
<snip>
Indeed. I was mostly interested in what the Muslim suicide bombers
are attacking when they claim to be attacking the west. What do they
mean by west in context, in your opinion?
To Islamists "The west" is "everybody who doesn't submit to our brand of
Islam". The Arabic term is "Dar al-Harb", literally "The House of War"
and it includes countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt too.
Does it involve capitalism at all, in your opinion?
I wonder what it would be like, to actually learn topics from the
Usenet. Elroy, there are probably fewer more complex socio-political
topics in the world today than the Middle East. Sit down and read a
few books on the topic if you want to have a clue. To give you a very
short (and therefore misleading) answer the Islamic fundamentalists
don't much care about what we see as economic system questions. They
are mostly basically capitalist leaning, but the distinctions and
concerns are different from ours. They believe in a strong
interventionist government and they don't like lots of the results of
our (mostly) unregulated capitalism. There is also a socialist, either
soviet or maoist, wing to Arab terrorism. The PLO was socialist, Hamas
is Islamic. But, as I said, this is simplified to the point of
deception.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
01 Sep 2005 03:31:16 PM |
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On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 18:33:21 GMT, in alt.atheism , Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> in
<96ieh190iag86p98a60r8cg1tji93bga62@4ax.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> in
Some questions I currently have unanswered/unclear in my mind...
Is "The West" the same thing as "Christendom" to the majority of
Muslims or Islamic people? Or to most other people, regardless of
their religions?
Why in the world are you asking this in an atheist newsgroup?
Where does East start and West end?
Were the Spanish conquistadors just as west as the most western state
here in the US when they were back at home?
Is "The West" all capitalistic countries, or all democratic countries,
or all countries conquered by Christianity?
Is there a simple short answer to the above questions?
Yes, learn that a given string can have multiple meanings which can
change with context.
Indeed. I was mostly interested in what the Muslim suicide bombers
are attacking when they claim to be attacking the west. What do they
mean by west in context, in your opinion?
Do they say the West? I have no insight that you don't have. I assume
they mean corrupt decadent infidels.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
01 Sep 2005 08:10:10 PM |
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I think it's one of those common misheard words. What they meant to say
was "the Rest".
T
Matt Silberstein wrote:
On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 18:33:21 GMT, in alt.atheism , Elroy Willis
<elroywillis@swbell.net> in
<96ieh190iag86p98a60r8cg1tji93bga62@4ax.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> in
Some questions I currently have unanswered/unclear in my mind...
Is "The West" the same thing as "Christendom" to the majority of
Muslims or Islamic people? Or to most other people, regardless of
their religions?
Why in the world are you asking this in an atheist newsgroup?
Where does East start and West end?
Were the Spanish conquistadors just as west as the most western state
here in the US when they were back at home?
Is "The West" all capitalistic countries, or all democratic countries,
or all countries conquered by Christianity?
Is there a simple short answer to the above questions?
Yes, learn that a given string can have multiple meanings which can
change with context.
Indeed. I was mostly interested in what the Muslim suicide bombers
are attacking when they claim to be attacking the west. What do they
mean by west in context, in your opinion?
Do they say the West? I have no insight that you don't have. I assume
they mean corrupt decadent infidels.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Where is West? What is West? |
01 Sep 2005 10:31:46 PM |
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On 1 Sep 2005 18:10:10 -0700, in alt.atheism ,
in <1125623410.809762.70400@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> wrote:
I think it's one of those common misheard words. What they meant to say
was "the Rest".
Ah, it is a sleep disorder problem. That makes sense. I suspect that a
remarkable % of the worlds problems are caused by sleep and/or
digestion problems.
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
http://www.beawitness.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
www.darfurgenocide.org
Save Darfur.org :: Violence and Suffering in Sudan's Darfur Region
http://www.savedarfur.org/
.
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