| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Fredric L. Rice" |
| Date: |
06 Nov 2005 07:04:58 PM |
| Object: |
Who else would Jesus torture? |
TORTURE AND THE VICE PRESIDENT....
As I mentioned yesterday, Sunday's New York Times carries a story
about Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, an al-Qaeda prisoner captured shortly
after 9/11.
According to a newly declassified memo, not only did al-Libi provide
us with false information suggesting that Iraq had trained al-Qaeda to
use WMD, but U.S. intelligence had a pretty good idea the information
was false as early as 2002.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/06/politics/06intel.html?ex=1288933200&en=5a216116a0310ce1&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
Colin Powell nonetheless presented this to the UN as credible evidence
of Iraqi WMD programs in February 2003, shortly before we invaded
Iraq.
Via Atrios, it turns out that we had excellent reasons to be skeptical
of al-Libi's testimony.
http://atrios.blogspot.com/2005_10_30_atrios_archive.html#113125085683083680
As Newsweek reported last year, al-Libi was one of the first test
cases for ***** Cheney's campaign to introduce torture as a standard
interrogation technique overseas, replacing the FBI's more mainstream
methods: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5197853/site/newsweek/
Al-Libi's capture, some sources say, was an early turning point in the
government's internal debates over interrogation methods....
"They duct-taped his mouth, cinched him up and sent him to Cairo" for
more-fearsome Egyptian interrogations, says the ex-FBI official.
"At the airport the CIA case officer goes up to him and says, 'You're
going to Cairo, you know. Before you get there I'm going to find your
mother and I'm going to f--- her.' So we lost that fight."
No wonder DIA was skeptical of al-Libi's information.
Not only did the details of his testimony seem inconsistent with known
facts, but DIA knew perfectly well he had given up this information
only under torture and was probably just saying anything that came to
mind in order to get it to stop.
As Mark Kleiman points out, this is the pragmatic case against
torture: not only is it wrong, but it doesn't even provide reliable
information anyway -- and it makes Cheney's relentless moral cretinism
on the subject all the worse.
Larry Wilkerson, who investigated this back when he was Colin Powell's
chief of staff, confirms that "there was a visible audit trail from
the vice president's office" that authorized the practices that led to
the abuse of detainees, and Cheney continues to vigorously support the
use of torture to this day, pressuring Congress behind closed doors
not to pass John McCain's anti-torture legislation.
As Andrew Sullivan says:
A man who avoided service in Vietnam is lecturing John McCain on the
legitimacy of torturing military detainees.
But notice he won't even make his argument before Senate aides, let
alone the public.
Why not?
If he really believes that the U.S. has not condoned torture but wants
to reserve it for exceptional cases, why not make his argument in the
full light of day?
You know: where democratically elected politicians operate.
If conservatives dislike ***** Durbin's comparison of American
practices to those of Hitler and Stalin, they should make clear to
***** Cheney that America doesn't condone the practices of Hitler and
Stalin.
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=91568
Because apparently, the vice president of the United States does
condone them.
Vigorously.
It's enough to make any decent human being puke.
---
http://www.ElmerFudd.US/ http://www.rightard.org/ http://www.thedarkwind.org/
"Sex is only perverted if it implants voracious alien parasites in your
bladder or rectum." -- nu-monet v8.0
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Who else would Jesus torture? |
07 Nov 2005 05:37:31 AM |
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"Fredric L. Rice" <FRice@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote
TORTURE AND THE VICE PRESIDENT....
Oh, come on! Just how baked are you?
This is *Classic* politics.
Wrap up all of the administration's scandals in *****
Cheney -- as if Bush isn't responsible -- and then if
Cheney goes so don't the scandals!
Seriously. ***** Cheney is responsible for the torture,
not Bush? Bush was victimized by the fake intel
Cheney made up?
That makes sense to you?
Not that it could make sense to you, even without
pointing out that a great deal of the supposedly
"bad intel" came from Rumsfeld's sources.
You're playing the administration's game.
"Blame Cheney, and wipe Bush's slate clean!"
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| User: "Fredric L. Rice" |
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| Title: Re: Who else would Jesus torture? |
07 Nov 2005 04:25:42 PM |
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"JTEM" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Fredric L. Rice" <FRice@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote
TORTURE AND THE VICE PRESIDENT....
Oh, come on! Just how baked are you? This is *Classic* politics.
Wrap up all of the administration's scandals in ***** Cheney -- as if Bush
isn't responsible -- and then if Cheney goes so don't the scandals!
Seriously. ***** Cheney is responsible for the torture, not Bush? Bush was
victimized by the fake intel Cheney made up? That makes sense to you?
Bush has zero idea what goes on inside or outside of the White House.
He does what his corporate and Christanic sponsors tell him, no more
and no less. When he orders treason, rape, kidnapping, torture, and
murder, he does so on orders from Cheney and Rove who get their
orders from Unocan, Exxon/Mobile, and everyone else who paid the fee.
---
http://www.ElmerFudd.US/ http://www.rightard.org/ http://www.thedarkwind.org/
"Sex is only perverted if it implants voracious alien parasites in your
bladder or rectum." -- nu-monet v8.0
.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Who else would Jesus torture? |
07 Nov 2005 08:27:06 PM |
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"Fredric L. Rice" <FRice@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote
Wrap up all of the administration's scandals in *****
Cheney -- as if Bush isn't responsible -- and then if
Cheney goes so don't the scandals!
Bush has zero idea what goes on inside or outside of
the White House.
I don't believe you. Your solution doesn't match your "problem"
here.
According to you, if Cheney left then the problem remains.
Bush still is clueless.
The "solution" to the problem you identify is to get rid of
Bush.
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| User: "Fredric L. Rice" |
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| Title: Re: Who else would Jesus torture? |
08 Nov 2005 03:21:59 AM |
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"JTEM" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Fredric L. Rice" <FRice@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote
Wrap up all of the administration's scandals in *****
Cheney -- as if Bush isn't responsible -- and then if
Cheney goes so don't the scandals!
Bush has zero idea what goes on inside or outside of the White House.
I don't believe you. Your solution doesn't match your "problem" here.
Your opinion, of course. You're wrong, of course.
---
http://www.ElmerFudd.US/ http://www.rightard.org/ http://www.thedarkwind.org/
"Sex is only perverted if it implants voracious alien parasites in your
bladder or rectum." -- nu-monet v8.0
.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Who else would Jesus torture? |
08 Nov 2005 03:48:38 AM |
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"Fredric L. Rice" <FRice@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote
Your opinion, of course. You're wrong, of course.
You identify the problem as Bush -- he's asleep at the
switch -- and yet your solution is to ignore the problem
and concentrate on Cheney.
That can't work. Not if your observations are correct.
With or without Cheney, Bush remains Bush.
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