| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"George Washington Hayduke" |
| Date: |
26 Oct 2004 11:54:50 PM |
| Object: |
Why do Christians attack The Goats? |
Since we had Banned Books Week, I've been going through some of the top
100 banned, cansored or otherwise attacked books, listed on the American
Library Association's web site.
Today at the library I got "The Goats" by Brock Cole and I've read it
(took about 2 hours; it's Young Adult) and I've been trying to figure
out why Christians have been attacking it. There's nothing -- absolutely
nothing -- in the book that's in the least bit objectionable in any way,
not anything (I would swear) that fundi Christian extremists should get
upset about.
I've you've never read this book, it's about two 13-year-old kids who
are at a kid's camp in the woods along a lake somewhere. A bunch of the
kids go to an island in the middle of the lake -- where the shore is
about a mile and a half away -- and two of the children are stripped
naked in seporate locations and left on the island as a joke or prank
that the camp has a tradition of. The kids this is done to are called
"Goats" because the Island is called "Goat Island."
There's _zero_ sexual content, no drug use, no cussing... There's just
absolutely nothing in the book that can be considered objectionable in
any way. The two kids are selected by the other kids (the boys selected
the boy, the girls selected the girl) because they're minor misfits
-- "goats" among the sheep where everyone fits in, perhaps, so perhaps
there's a bit anti-Christian thinking-for-yourself exhibited by the
two kids.
The two kids are also not on the run from anything; they're avoiding the
people who run the camp but they're trying to survive long enough for
the girl's mother to come visit the camp for "parents day" whereafter
they hope the two of them will go home with her -- this after they're
abandoned on the island and escape. They feel they can't go back to the
camp for a number of reasons, not the least of which is to turn the
prank back on the other kids into letting them think they had drowed.
(It doesn't occur to the two that adults will also think they've drowned
and it never occured to the girl that the camp would telephone her
mother. The story delves into young minds that desire things, think
them through, but don't plan for all the consequences, only the most
immediate consequences. And the girl _does_ telephone her mother every
day, missing her as the mother scrambles to catch up with her daughter
-- another symbolic touch.)
The story is not about love either; it's about a number of things but
it's not about love, something that a lot of Christians have a problem
with. And there's no sexual touching though there _is_ touching and
a few words exchanged about the girl's first period. Then again the
story isn't about "coming of age."
The two kids -- a boy and a girl, both 13 years old -- escape from the
island the very night they're left there, break into a cabin for the
remainder of the night where the boy pretty much takes care of the two
of them while the girl is passing out from exposure at times. They
work their way to the next town after stealing some clothes, meet with
kids from another camp -- mostly black inner-city kids -- and they
spend a night at the other camp.
In all they spend three or perhaps four nights; the boy's parents are
in Turkey and can't be reached and the girl's mother declined to pick
the two children up because the girl wasn't able to exactly communicate
why they needed to be picked up -- she informed her mother than as usual
she wasn't getting along with the other kids at the camp and the mother
assumed it was "more of the same" and didn't know that her daughter
had been stripped, abandoned on an island with a boy, and was now on
the highway. Once the mother is informed that her daughter is missing
(she's not told straight on that she was stripped and abandoned with a
boy on the island) she comes to the camp to start looking for her
daughter.
Though the book isn't about young love, it _is_ about careing and fondness
which the two share, and about the escapism fantasies of the boy. The
boy -- when with his archeologist father in Greece -- experienced
something that made him feel special in a cave in Greece where a Greek
God was once said to live, but it wasn't a religious sort of experience;
it was more a longing to basically just point one's feet for the far
hills and just start walking. The Greek God's cave was a unique experience
that he enjoyed while he was young -- enjoyment that was intellectual for
his father but emotional for him due to his youth.
"Wander lust" rather than any budding sexual desires was what motivated
the boy and his fantasies. He saw himself and the girl living in the
woods like American Indians, living off the land, just walking off into
the dark woods away from everyone, disappearing.
When the girl is captured by a hotel cleaning woman, the boy sets off the
hotel fire alarm which leaves the girl alone with the cleaning woman.
The boy then suddenly shows up wrapped in leaves and vines, pressing
his face to the window which frightens the cleaning woman, allowing the
girl to just get up and walk away with the boy.
The cleaning woman exclaimes, "Wild things! Unclean wild things!" at the
leaf-covered face pressed to the window.
What's also interesting is the boy's belief that something in the dark,
deep woods is watching them. And before the girl was captured, when they
had finagled a hotel room for the night, the boy looked into a mirror and
saw a leaf in his hair but left it there "because he liked the way he
looked." The boy -- 13 years old -- feels compelled to just walk into
the woods and disappear. And that's not because he's not loved -- he is
-- and it's not because of any emotional problem. It's just that he's
yearning to do so without knowing why, something a lot of teens experience.
Why Christians would feel this book needs to be removed from library
shelves is a mystery.
There are also two contrasts among the adults in the book -- two basic
constructs. The vast majority "talk over their heads" about the kids.
One of the consequences of what will happen after they meet up with the
mother is that the police and camp adults will all get together and they
will not actually talk with the kids because the adults rarely do --
even when the adults are acting like they're talking to the kids, they
actually talk for the benefit of other adults. That "talk over the heads"
type of adult are always an authority.
The other type -- a single lone mad on a mostly deserted highway who
sells honey -- calls himself a "liberal." He gives the girl as much
money as she needs to telephone her mother -- who she finally reaches in
a hotel room.
This old man is different than all of the other adults in the story.
Unlike others -- like the gas station mechanic, the cleaning woman, and a
woman in a resturant -- who think the two are having sex, he doesn't
prejudge any opinion. And unlike some of the other adults -- like the
Sheriff who is apparently a child abductor and pedophile -- the old man
doesn't assume the two are on the run from the law.
As the girl is making her second telephone call and talking to her
mother, the old man asks the boy how far he had traveled. The boy --
feeling sad and detached because his fantasy will never be realized and
because he knows his time with the girl is coming to an end -- answers
with one or two words; not a very cohearant answer. The old man then
asks the boy how far he's yet got to travel. The boy's response is
better this time: he's unsure but he knows that some day he's going to
just take to his feet without the girl, alone, living _part_ of his
fantasy, but not until he's much older.
When the daughter's mother arrives at the honey stand, she and the
female officer that comes with her, find the stand closed and the two
kids nowhere around. The old man walks out of the woods and offers to
open the stand then learns that this is the mother he's talking to.
The old man asks her if she's able to pay the IOU the daughter wrote
to him for the sixty cents of the telephone calls and she starts to go
through her purse saying yes, she would. The old man tells her that he
wants to keep the IOU because it's worth a lot more than sixty cents.
They ask where the kids have gone. The old man tells them that the kids
started walking off up the fire road behind the honey stand, even after
he told the boy that the road goes nowhere. The girl just kind of
followed along, talking to the boy, asking where they were going, and
not getting any answer; the boy stops talking.
As a helicopter causes the two to stop and hide under a tree, they sit
and finally the boy starts talking again -- just up the fire road from
the honey stand. He tells her that he's going to continue on down the
road and that he doesn't want to be a part of her any more.
The girl slugs him in the face and jumps on top of him and starts
slugging him in the face calling him a liar. She breaks his glasses
before he turns over and pins her to the ground. The girl demands
that he "give up" and stop lying and he does -- he admits that he wants
to be with her despite the call of the woods and despite the flood of
adults that will "talk over their heads" that he knows will be an ordeal
they'll have to go through. He admits he wants to stay with her always.
Interestingly, the loss of the glasses ment that as the two walk
hand-in-hand down the fire road toward the honey stand, when the girl's
mother starts running up to them, the boy can't see her face clearly --
it's a blur, just like everything else is a blur.
And in the middle of the fire road there's a tree stump; the boy and
girl walking hand-in-hand walk on either side and the girl says, "Hold
on. Hold on" as their arms strech across the road as they walk toward
the blured mother.
It's also interesting in the fact that the boy and the girl are refered
to as "the boy" and "the girl" through out most of the story. Only when
adults are talking are their names used. Among the other kids at the
other camp the two children are called Bonnie and Clyde. And among the
kids of the first camp, they're the Goats.
If there was something religious about this, I could see why it would be
hated by some Christians. If the God in the Greek cave was depicted as
an actual non-Christian God, I could see some opposition -- insane and
absurd, true, but that's fundies for you. As it is, none of the usual
classical earmarks of what motivates Christian book burners is contained
within this book so it's rather a mystery.
+--+
| Hezbollah endorses George W. Bush: http://www.hezbollah.ws/
| http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html -- Scientology crime syndicate
| "And his daughter drips semen relentlessly." - Molina
+--+
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: Why do Christians attack The Goats? |
27 Oct 2004 09:15:09 AM |
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"George Washington Hayduke" <Hayduke@AWOLBush.com> wrote in message
news:10nuakq2jit3675@corp.supernews.com...
Since we had Banned Books Week, I've been going through some of the top
100 banned, cansored or otherwise attacked books, listed on the American
Library Association's web site.
Today at the library I got "The Goats" by Brock Cole and I've read it
(took about 2 hours; it's Young Adult) and I've been trying to figure
out why Christians have been attacking it. There's nothing -- absolutely
nothing -- in the book that's in the least bit objectionable in any way,
not anything (I would swear) that fundi Christian extremists should get
upset about.
I've you've never read this book, it's about two 13-year-old kids who
are at a kid's camp in the woods along a lake somewhere. A bunch of the
kids go to an island in the middle of the lake -- where the shore is
about a mile and a half away -- and two of the children are stripped
naked in seporate locations and left on the island as a joke or prank
that the camp has a tradition of. The kids this is done to are called
"Goats" because the Island is called "Goat Island."
Being naked in pubic is ant-Christian.
--
Freedom of thought entails no "Intellectual Property".
.
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| User: "George Washington Hayduke" |
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| Title: Re: Why do Christians attack The Goats? |
27 Oct 2004 11:47:06 PM |
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"Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com> wrote:
"George Washington Hayduke" <Hayduke@AWOLBush.com> wrote in message
kids go to an island in the middle of the lake -- where the shore is
about a mile and a half away -- and two of the children are stripped
naked in seporate locations and left on the island as a joke or prank
that the camp has a tradition of. The kids this is done to are called
"Goats" because the Island is called "Goat Island."
Being naked in pubic is ant-Christian.
I don't think that was it. That was listed as one of the complaints
that was found with a google search but the _text_ of the book wouldn't
support the notion that there's nudity in the book. Not unless someone
considers maybe taking a bath to be maybe a sexual behavior or something.
I'd expect that whoever complained didn't actually read it since there
was nothing in the book reasonable to ban.
I'm also half way through "Alice of the Wolves" and have yet to find
anything banable.
+--+
| Hezbollah endorses George W. Bush: http://www.hezbollah.ws/
| http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html -- Scientology crime syndicate
| "And his daughter drips semen relentlessly." - Molina
+--+
.
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| User: "Uncle Dollar Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Why do Christians attack The Goats? |
27 Oct 2004 07:58:53 PM |
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On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:15:09 GMT in alt.atheism, "Ike"
<accordiondoc@mindspring.com> defied the status quo and scrawled upon the toilet
stall:
"George Washington Hayduke" <Hayduke@AWOLBush.com> wrote in message
news:10nuakq2jit3675@corp.supernews.com...
Since we had Banned Books Week, I've been going through some of the top
100 banned, cansored or otherwise attacked books, listed on the American
Library Association's web site.
Today at the library I got "The Goats" by Brock Cole and I've read it
(took about 2 hours; it's Young Adult) and I've been trying to figure
out why Christians have been attacking it.
Could be that in their confusion, as they try to hide all things embarassing to
Shrub, they got that title mixed up with _another_ goat book Shrub had been
reading, oh, sometime on the morning of 9/11/2001...
--
L8r,
Uncle Dollar Bill
"Opinions are like people - every ***** has one..."
.
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: Why do Christians attack The Goats? |
28 Oct 2004 01:51:15 PM |
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"Uncle Dollar Bill" <UncleDollarBill@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:4180444b.197424@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:15:09 GMT in alt.atheism, "Ike"
<accordiondoc@mindspring.com> defied the status quo and scrawled upon the
toilet
stall:
"George Washington Hayduke" <Hayduke@AWOLBush.com> wrote in message
news:10nuakq2jit3675@corp.supernews.com...
Since we had Banned Books Week, I've been going through some of the top
100 banned, cansored or otherwise attacked books, listed on the
American
Library Association's web site.
Today at the library I got "The Goats" by Brock Cole and I've read it
(took about 2 hours; it's Young Adult) and I've been trying to figure
out why Christians have been attacking it.
Could be that in their confusion, as they try to hide all things
embarassing to
Shrub, they got that title mixed up with _another_ goat book Shrub had
been
reading, oh, sometime on the morning of 9/11/2001...
You left out the part I worote: Being naked in pubic is ant-Christian.
.
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| User: "Uncle Dollar Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Why do Christians attack The Goats? |
28 Oct 2004 10:18:38 PM |
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On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:51:15 GMT in alt.atheism, "Ike"
<accordiondoc@mindspring.com> defied the status quo and scrawled upon the toilet
stall:
"Uncle Dollar Bill" <UncleDollarBill@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:4180444b.197424@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:15:09 GMT in alt.atheism, "Ike"
<accordiondoc@mindspring.com> defied the status quo and scrawled upon the
toilet
stall:
"George Washington Hayduke" <Hayduke@AWOLBush.com> wrote in message
news:10nuakq2jit3675@corp.supernews.com...
Since we had Banned Books Week, I've been going through some of the top
100 banned, cansored or otherwise attacked books, listed on the
American
Library Association's web site.
Today at the library I got "The Goats" by Brock Cole and I've read it
(took about 2 hours; it's Young Adult) and I've been trying to figure
out why Christians have been attacking it.
Could be that in their confusion, as they try to hide all things
embarassing to
Shrub, they got that title mixed up with _another_ goat book Shrub had
been
reading, oh, sometime on the morning of 9/11/2001...
You left out the part I worote: Being naked in pubic is ant-Christian.
Soiree, you're correct. I did include your name in the headers as one I was
quoting. My bad, I apologize.
--
L8r,
Uncle Dollar Bill
"Opinions are like people - every ***** has one..."
.
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| User: "Dale" |
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| Title: Re: Why do Christians attack The Goats? |
27 Oct 2004 01:27:29 AM |
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"George Washington Hayduke" <Hayduke@AWOLBush.com> wrote in message
news:10nuakq2jit3675@corp.supernews.com...
Since we had Banned Books Week, I've been going through some of the top
100 banned, cansored or otherwise attacked books, listed on the American
Library Association's web site.
Today at the library I got "The Goats" by Brock Cole and I've read it
(took about 2 hours; it's Young Adult) and I've been trying to figure
out why Christians have been attacking it. There's nothing -- absolutely
nothing -- in the book that's in the least bit objectionable in any way,
not anything (I would swear) that fundi Christian extremists should get
upset about.
Thanks for the long synopsis. A Google search on "The Goats" Brock Cole
yielded the following link. I doubt that many of those opposing it have ever
read the book. Someone put it on a list, and like sheep, others will bleat
in kind.
http://solonor.com/bannedbooks/archives/001750.html
Complaints: Profanity, nudity
Presents ideas and situations that are inappropriate for children of middle
school age.
which linked to this
http://www.hippopress.com/beat13/beat13_092800.html
This week the Londonderry school board listened to a parental argument
concerning the book "The Goats" by Brock Cole, and its place on the middle
school reading list. The charge against the book is that it presents ideas
and situations that are inappropriate for children of middle school age, and
therefore it should not be on the reading list in middle school classrooms.
.
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| User: "George Washington Hayduke" |
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| Title: Re: Why do Christians attack The Goats? |
27 Oct 2004 11:43:18 PM |
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"Dale" <dmgreer@nspm.airmail.net> wrote:
"George Washington Hayduke" <Hayduke@AWOLBush.com> wrote in message
news:10nuakq2jit3675@corp.supernews.com...
Thanks for the long synopsis. A Google search on "The Goats" Brock Cole
yielded the following link. I doubt that many of those opposing it have ever
read the book. Someone put it on a list, and like sheep, others will bleat
in kind.
http://solonor.com/bannedbooks/archives/001750.html
Interesting, I didn't find this when I did a google.
Complaints: Profanity, nudity Presents ideas and situations that
are inappropriate for children of middle school age.
<groan> The problem with that is it's not specific enough to actually
explain what the complainer's problem with the book was.
which linked to this
http://www.hippopress.com/beat13/beat13_092800.html
This week the Londonderry school board listened to a parental argument
concerning the book "The Goats" by Brock Cole, and its place on the middle
school reading list. The charge against the book is that it presents ideas
and situations that are inappropriate for children of middle school age, and
therefore it should not be on the reading list in middle school classrooms.
Well, that complaint is vague. I read the thing and there's nudity,
true, but it's not sexual of any kind. And there's no profanity of any
kind; I don't recall a single "cuss word." And as for ideas and
situations, there's no way to tell what the complainer was thinking of.
+--+
| Hezbollah endorses George W. Bush: http://www.hezbollah.ws/
| http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html -- Scientology crime syndicate
| "And his daughter drips semen relentlessly." - Molina
+--+
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| User: "Paul Murray" |
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| Title: Re: Why do Christians attack The Goats? |
31 Oct 2004 06:08:33 AM |
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"George Washington Hayduke" <Hayduke@AWOLBush.com> wrote in message
news:10nuakq2jit3675@corp.supernews.com...
any way. The two kids are selected by the other kids (the boys selected
the boy, the girls selected the girl) because they're minor misfits
-- "goats" among the sheep where everyone fits in, perhaps, so perhaps
there's a bit anti-Christian thinking-for-yourself exhibited by the
two kids.
Yes, that would be it. The story targets religious hipocrisy. Pharisees,
wherever and whenever they be, do not like that.
+--+
| Hezbollah endorses George W. Bush: http://www.hezbollah.ws/
| http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html -- Scientology crime syndicate
| "And his daughter drips semen relentlessly." - Molina
+--+
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| User: "The Last Liberal" |
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| Title: Re: Why do Christians attack The Goats? |
27 Oct 2004 09:54:39 AM |
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On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 04:54:50 GMT, (George
Washington Hayduke) wrote:
Since we had Banned Books Week, I've been going through some of the top
100 banned, cansored or otherwise attacked books, listed on the American
Library Association's web site.
Thank you for the outline. The only reason I can think of why some
people would object to the book is because it has two people learning
to care for and protect each other--- something theofasists in the USA
hate and loathe.
--
"Terrorism" isn't the enemy: George W Bush is!
http://lastliberal.org
Voting Republican makes baby Jesus cry!
.
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| User: "George Washington Hayduke" |
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| Title: Re: Why do Christians attack The Goats? |
27 Oct 2004 11:49:57 PM |
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(The Last Liberal) wrote:
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 04:54:50 GMT, (George
Washington Hayduke) wrote:
Since we had Banned Books Week, I've been going through some of the top
100 banned, cansored or otherwise attacked books, listed on the American
Library Association's web site.
Thank you for the outline. The only reason I can think of why some
people would object to the book is because it has two people learning
to care for and protect each other--- something theofasists in the USA
hate and loathe.
That could be it. If you get a chance at the lobrary near you, you
should check the thing out if they have a copy. Like I said, it only
took about 2 hours to read and it's a good story. It would be
interesting to see what another non-Christian thinks might have
been the specific complaints about the book.
+--+
| Hezbollah endorses George W. Bush: http://www.hezbollah.ws/
| http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html -- Scientology crime syndicate
| "And his daughter drips semen relentlessly." - Molina
+--+
.
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| User: "The Last Liberal" |
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| Title: Re: Why do Christians attack The Goats? |
28 Oct 2004 10:57:12 AM |
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On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 04:49:57 GMT, (George
Washington Hayduke) wrote:
desertphile@cchr.ws (The Last Liberal) wrote:
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 04:54:50 GMT, (George
Washington Hayduke) wrote:
Since we had Banned Books Week, I've been going through some of the top
100 banned, cansored or otherwise attacked books, listed on the American
Library Association's web site.
Thank you for the outline. The only reason I can think of why some
people would object to the book is because it has two people learning
to care for and protect each other--- something theofasists in the USA
hate and loathe.
That could be it. If you get a chance at the lobrary near you, you
should check the thing out if they have a copy. Like I said, it only
took about 2 hours to read and it's a good story. It would be
interesting to see what another non-Christian thinks might have
been the specific complaints about the book.
The "nearest" library is 3 hours away on a good day--- 36 hours away
if it is raining. :-) Maybe the Santa Felibrary has a copy.
+--+
| Hezbollah endorses George W. Bush: http://www.hezbollah.ws/
| http://sf.irk.ru/www/ot3/otiii-gif.html -- Scientology crime syndicate
| "And his daughter drips semen relentlessly." - Molina
+--+
--
"Terrorism" isn't the enemy: George W Bush is!
http://lastliberal.org
Voting Republican makes baby Jesus cry!
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