| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Truth Hunter" |
| Date: |
10 Jul 2005 01:18:30 PM |
| Object: |
Why does Jesus pray to God? |
Why does Jesus pray to God?
I'm testing the validity of Christianity by testing the logic of the
Trinity.
Since Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God are one, why does Jesus pray to
God? Why does God pray to God? Why does Jesus pray to God when God
knows all of the answers, and...
Why does Jesus need to pray, when he sees all and hears all and knows
whats going to happen anyway? None of this makes sense!
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org
Bumper Sticker
DIVINE INSANITY
God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation fro=ADm his own
wrath!(Author unknown)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
16 Jul 2005 04:54:08 PM |
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then you believe that texts more recent than the Septuagint (all more
recent vintage) are more accurate... Christians Bible?... it is my
understanding that the Protestants don't use the Septuagint...
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| User: "VO" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
16 Jul 2005 05:53:36 PM |
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<vo_4@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1121550848.885365.241050@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
then you believe that texts more recent than the Septuagint (all more
recent vintage) are more accurate... Christians Bible?... it is my
understanding that the Protestants don't use the Septuagint...
reference primarily.
It lacks
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
16 Jul 2005 08:58:32 PM |
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Huh?
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| User: "VO" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
17 Jul 2005 10:02:31 AM |
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<vo_4@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1121565512.000952.194060@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Huh?
They use the Septuagint for reference only but it lacks authority, complete
accuracy, and consistency with traditional Hebrew documents.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
11 Jul 2005 06:03:13 PM |
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Truth Hunter wrote:
Why does Jesus pray to God?
I'm testing the validity of Christianity by testing the logic of the
Trinity.
Since Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God are one, why does Jesus pray to
God? Why does God pray to God? Why does Jesus pray to God when God
knows all of the answers, and...
Why does Jesus need to pray, when he sees all and hears all and knows
whats going to happen anyway? None of this makes sense!
Perhaps there is no 1+1+1=3D1.
perhaps the Father is greater then he who is the Son of God.
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org
Bumper Sticker
DIVINE INSANITY
God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation fro=ADm his own
=20
wrath!(Author unknown)
.
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| User: "fred" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
10 Jul 2005 02:54:03 PM |
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Truth Hunter wrote:
Why does Jesus pray to God?
I'm testing the validity of Christianity by testing the logic of the
Trinity.
I would start by first listing all the Bible verses that mention the
Trinity.
Since Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God are one, why does Jesus pray to
God? Why does God pray to God? Why does Jesus pray to God when God
knows all of the answers, and...
Why does Jesus need to pray, when he sees all and hears all and knows
whats going to happen anyway? None of this makes sense!
God endowed man with both faith and reasoning. And God's Scriptures
appeal to both faith and reasoning, although the emphasis is on faith.
So when you don't apply faith to your understanding of the Scriptures
then you're probably going to spin your wheels trying to make sense out
of them. Given you're complaints about Jesus and prayer, I'll bet that
you didn't know when you woke up today that you'd be a living example
of 1 Corinthians 1:18-19, did you?
The bottom line is quit resisting the guidance of Jesus's Holy Spirit
with respect to trying to understand the Scriptures and ask the Spirit
to open your mind to the Scriptures.
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org
Bumper Sticker
DIVINE INSANITY
God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation fro=ADm his own
=20
wrath!(Author unknown)
.
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
10 Jul 2005 03:32:03 PM |
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"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121025243.176065.54300@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Truth Hunter wrote:
Why does Jesus pray to God?
I'm testing the validity of Christianity by testing the logic of the
Trinity.
I would start by first listing all the Bible verses that mention the
Trinity.
================================================
I know of NONE. Care to inlighton us by qouting a few.
================================================
Since Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God are one, why does Jesus pray to
God? Why does God pray to God? Why does Jesus pray to God when God
knows all of the answers, and...
Why does Jesus need to pray, when he sees all and hears all and knows
whats going to happen anyway? None of this makes sense!
God endowed man with both faith and reasoning. And God's Scriptures
appeal to both faith and reasoning, although the emphasis is on faith.
So when you don't apply faith to your understanding of the Scriptures
then you're probably going to spin your wheels trying to make sense out
of them. Given you're complaints about Jesus and prayer, I'll bet that
you didn't know when you woke up today that you'd be a living example
of 1 Corinthians 1:18-19, did you?
The bottom line is quit resisting the guidance of Jesus's Holy Spirit
with respect to trying to understand the Scriptures and ask the Spirit
to open your mind to the Scriptures.
Dream on Jesus freak!
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org
Bumper Sticker
DIVINE INSANITY
God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation from his own
wrath!(Author unknown)
.
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| User: "fred" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
10 Jul 2005 07:11:56 PM |
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Bill wrote:
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121025243.176065.54300@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Truth Hunter wrote:
Why does Jesus pray to God?
I'm testing the validity of Christianity by testing the logic of the
Trinity.
I would start by first listing all the Bible verses that mention the
Trinity.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
I know of NONE. Care to inlighton us by qouting a few.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
The point is that Trinity is not a biblical term. I understand that
the term Trinity was first coined by Tertullian, an ancient church
historian.
Since Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God are one, why does Jesus pray to
God? Why does God pray to God? Why does Jesus pray to God when God
knows all of the answers, and...
Why does Jesus need to pray, when he sees all and hears all and knows
whats going to happen anyway? None of this makes sense!
God endowed man with both faith and reasoning. And God's Scriptures
appeal to both faith and reasoning, although the emphasis is on faith.
So when you don't apply faith to your understanding of the Scriptures
then you're probably going to spin your wheels trying to make sense out
of them. Given you're complaints about Jesus and prayer, I'll bet that
you didn't know when you woke up today that you'd be a living example
of 1 Corinthians 1:18-19, did you?
The bottom line is quit resisting the guidance of Jesus's Holy Spirit
with respect to trying to understand the Scriptures and ask the Spirit
to open your mind to the Scriptures.
Dream on Jesus freak!
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org
Bumper Sticker
DIVINE INSANITY
God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation fro=ADm his own
wrath!(Author unknown)
.
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| User: "leo" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
10 Jul 2005 02:01:14 PM |
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You dont know a ***** about gods, dude.
Gods love so much praises that they pass all eternity praising
themselves. That is why we are obligued to pass the time praysing
them. God is not really a trinity, but a billionity. Because there is
not one god, but millones and trillions of them. Each fucking star
has at least half a dozen gods, or more.
Keep praising god, dude. Drink that whiskey and start to praise the
Lord.
leo
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| User: "alt" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
12 Jul 2005 01:16:07 AM |
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http://www.carm.org/islam/obj_trinity.htm
The Trinity makes no sense. It isn't logical.
Muslims often state that the Trinity doctrine lacks both common sense
and logic. Additionally, they sometimes accuse the Christians of
being polytheists by saying that the Trinity teaches three gods.
Other times they state that it is illogical for three gods to be one
god and for that reason, the Trinity can't be true. Their objections
need to be addressed. But, before we do, we need to understand what
the Trinity is and what it is not. The doctrine of the Trinity1 is
that there is one God who exists in three persons: Father, Son, and
Holy Spirit. Each person is not the same as the other person; that
is, the Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same
person as the Holy Spirit. Each is fully God in nature. Each person
is not a god in itself. Instead, the totality of all three persons
comprises the one God. There are not three gods, but one. We
believe there are no partners with God because we believe there is
only one God in all existence. At first, some may look at this
teaching and be confused by it. How can God be three persons in one
God? This is a good question because it is a bit difficult to grasp.
But, that is what we would expect isn't it, when we encounter God?
Would we not expect to find some things about God's Infinite nature a
bit beyond our comprehension? This is not unreasonable. However, we
must not make the mistake of saying something as ridiculous as, "It
doesn't make sense. Therefore it is true." Following is a small
chart that helps clarify how the doctrine of the Trinity is arrived
at through the Bible.
T R I N I T Y
FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT
Called God Phil. 1:2 John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9 Acts 5:3-4
Creator Isaiah 64:8; 44:24 John 1:3; Col. 1:15-17 Job 33:4; 26:13
Indwells 2 Cor. 6:16 Col. 1:27 John 14:17
Everywhere 1 Kings 8:27 Matt. 28:20 Psalm 139:7-10
All knowing 1 John 3:20 John 16:30; 21:17 1 Cor. 2:10-11
The above chart is representative and not complete but it shows that
there is scriptural support for the doctrine. Following is another
way of illustrating the Trinity.
The Trinities in Nature
People already believe in trinities. They just don't know they do.
Here is how. Basically, the universe consists of three elements:
Time, Space, and Matter. Each of these is comprised of three
'components.'
Time Past Present Future
Space Height Width Depth
Matter Solid Liquid Gas
TIME SPACE MATTER
As the Trinitarian doctrine maintains, each of the persons of the
Godhead is distinct, yet they are all each, by nature, God. The
same idea can be presented in the above examples. With time, for
example, the past is not the same as the present, which is not the
same as the future. Each is simultaneous (according to some time
theoriests). Yet, they are not three 'times,' but one. That is,
they all share the same nature: time.
With space, height is distinct from width, which is not the same as
depth, which is is not the same as height. Yet, they are not three
'spaces,' but one. That is, they all share the same nature: space.
With matter, solid is not the same as liquid, which is not the same
as gas, which is not the same as solid. Yet, they are not three
'matters,' but one. That is, they all share the same nature: matter.
Note that there are three sets of threes. In other words, there is a
trinity of trinities. If we were to look at the universe and notice
these qualities within it, is it really so difficult to imagine that
God can be a Trinity of persons? Furthermore, is it fair to say
that this "trinity of trinities" are the fingerprints of God upon
His creation? I think so.
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse," (Rom.
1:20).
Of course, there are always people who will say that this is
ridiculous. Perhaps it is. But if it is it is up to them to
demonstrate why it cannot be true. If we see the analogy of the
Trinity within the nature, why is it so difficult to believe that God
could be the Trinity as well?
Demonstrate that it is illogical
One of the questions I ask the anti-Trinitarians is "Can you please
show me how the Trinity is illogical?". Usually, they respond with
something like, "It just doesn't make sense," or "It simply can't
be." But making such statements doesn't prove or disprove anything.
The question is, "How is it illogical?" I have yet to hear a logical
explanation. It isn't against logic for God to be three persons. It
may be difficult to understand, and some may not like it, but it
isn't illogical. For it to be illogical, there must be some rule of
logic that is violated that makes it impossible for God to exist as a
Trinity. For example, to say that one god is really three gods is
illogical because the quantity of one is not the same quantity as
three and since they (one and three) are mutually exclusive as to
quantity in this situation, to say one god is three gods is
illogical. But that isn't what the Trinity is anyway, so this can't
be used to demonstrate that the Trinity is illogical. Furthermore,
there is no logical reason why God cannot be three persons.
Trinitarianism is monotheistic. That means that it is a doctrine
that teaches the existence of a single being who is God and that
there is only one God in all existence. This is sometimes ignored or
not known when people (Muslims) criticize the Trinity by asserting
that the Trinity teaches three gods. But, it does not. As is stated
above, the Trinity is a monotheistic theological position. When
Muslims state that the Trinity isn't logical, it is up to them to
demonstrate how. If they are not able to do it, then they should
stop making the claim.
____________________
1. To hear a tape on what the Trinity is, go to the Audio Tapes section on
CARM.
Return to Islam
CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS AND RESEARCH MINISTRY Home | Contact | Newsletter |
Publications | Donations | Copying and Linking © Matthew J. Slick, 1996,
1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:18:30
-0700, Truth Hunter wrote:
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| User: "ۥ R. L. Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
12 Jul 2005 02:21:08 AM |
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In article <pan.2005.07.12.06.16.05.446194@lazyeyez.net>, alt
<spamtrap@lazyeyez.net> wrote:
http://www.carm.org/islam/obj_trinity.htm
The Trinity makes no sense. It isn't logical.
Muslims often state that the Trinity doctrine lacks both common sense
and logic. Additionally, they sometimes accuse the Christians of
being polytheists by saying that the Trinity teaches three gods.
Other times they state that it is illogical for three gods to be one
god and for that reason, the Trinity can't be true. Their objections
need to be addressed. But, before we do, we need to understand what
the Trinity is and what it is not. The doctrine of the Trinity1 is
that there is one God who exists in three persons: Father, Son, and
Holy Spirit. Each person is not the same as the other person; ...
• A friend's wife has this sort of *****. She was diagnosed as having
MPD. When she's The Princess personality she delightful but when she's
Wicked Wanda she's frightful.
--
Rich. 805.386.3734
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
12 Jul 2005 06:07:29 PM |
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?. R. L. Measures wrote:
In article <pan.2005.07.12.06.16.05.446194@lazyeyez.net>, alt
<spamtrap@lazyeyez.net> wrote:
http://www.carm.org/islam/obj_trinity.htm
The Trinity makes no sense. It isn't logical.
Muslims often state that the Trinity doctrine lacks both common
sense and logic. Additionally, they sometimes accuse the
Christians of being polytheists by saying that the Trinity
teaches three gods. Other times they state that it is illogical
for three gods to be one god and for that reason, the Trinity
can't be true. Their objections need to be addressed. But,
before we do, we need to understand what the Trinity is and
what it is not. The doctrine of the Trinity1 is that there is
one God who exists in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit. Each person is not the same as the other person; ...
. A friend's wife has this sort of *****. She was diagnosed as having
MPD. When she's The Princess personality she delightful but when
she's Wicked Wanda she's frightful.
MPD was renamed DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) in the 90's and that is
a much better description of something that may or may not be a real
condition.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/mpd_did3.htm
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| User: "ۥ R. L. Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
12 Jul 2005 08:40:54 PM |
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In article <R2YAe.976$Rv7.397@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
?. R. L. Measures wrote:
In article <pan.2005.07.12.06.16.05.446194@lazyeyez.net>, alt
<spamtrap@lazyeyez.net> wrote:
http://www.carm.org/islam/obj_trinity.htm
The Trinity makes no sense. It isn't logical.
Muslims often state that the Trinity doctrine lacks both common
sense and logic. Additionally, they sometimes accuse the
Christians of being polytheists by saying that the Trinity
teaches three gods. Other times they state that it is illogical
for three gods to be one god and for that reason, the Trinity
can't be true. Their objections need to be addressed. But,
before we do, we need to understand what the Trinity is and
what it is not. The doctrine of the Trinity1 is that there is
one God who exists in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit. Each person is not the same as the other person; ...
. A friend's wife has this sort of *****. She was diagnosed as having
MPD. When she's The Princess personality she delightful but when
she's Wicked Wanda she's frightful.
MPD was renamed DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) in the 90's and that is
a much better description of something that may or may not be a real
condition.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/mpd_did3.htm
** thanks. There was nothing iffy about Wicked Wanda
--
Rich. 805.386.3734
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| User: "Wayne Delia" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
12 Jul 2005 02:11:30 PM |
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alt wrote:
The Trinity makes no sense. It isn't logical.
Muslims often state that the Trinity doctrine lacks both common sense
and logic.
It ain't just the Muslims.
WMD
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
10 Jul 2005 02:52:47 PM |
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on 10 Jul 2005 in alt.atheism, dear sweet Truth Hunter
(hunter1234222@yahoo.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
Why does Jesus pray to God?
Maybe he likes to talk to himself?
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
http://home.comcast.net/~vickman/
______________
'03 XVS650A
'04 XVS1100
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
10 Jul 2005 06:31:42 PM |
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On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:52:47 -0500, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com> wrote:
on 10 Jul 2005 in alt.atheism, dear sweet Truth Hunter
(hunter1234222@yahoo.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
Why does Jesus pray to God?
Maybe he likes to talk to himself?
Actually, he's referring to his Father.
But no one expects you to understand.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
11 Jul 2005 01:01:21 AM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:gsb3d1tr9m1v4q95ilvcfdr7snt1cidgat@4ax.com...
On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:52:47 -0500, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com>
wrote:
on 10 Jul 2005 in alt.atheism, dear sweet Truth Hunter
(hunter1234222@yahoo.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
Why does Jesus pray to God?
Maybe he likes to talk to himself?
Actually, he's referring to his Father.
But no one expects you to understand.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
At least be honest here. Being a student of the Bible, you know damn well
that Jesus was not referring to his "father" when he uttered the words,
"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" (My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?)
when dying on the cross! Even the translators of the Septuagint knew to
translate "Eloi" as [My] "God," and *not* "Father" ("Abba"). Notice that
Jesus does not cry out "Abba, Abba"? I wonder why? Could it be that he felt
betrayed and abandoned by a God who he feels has let him down?
Greywolf
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
11 Jul 2005 05:54:00 PM |
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On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:01:21 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote:
Actually, he's referring to his Father.
But no one expects you to understand.
At least be honest here. Being a student of the Bible, you know damn well
that Jesus was not referring to his "father" when he uttered the words,
"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" (My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?)
when dying on the cross! Even the translators of the Septuagint knew to
translate "Eloi" as [My] "God," and *not* "Father" ("Abba"). Notice that
Jesus does not cry out "Abba, Abba"? I wonder why?
Easy - what he was doing was praying an OT prayer.
Could it be that he felt
betrayed and abandoned by a God who he feels has let him down?
Greywolf
Nope.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
12 Jul 2005 06:47:24 AM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:01u5d1to8je18budp7avvo12jvvin8dc6t@4ax.com...
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:01:21 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
Actually, he's referring to his Father.
But no one expects you to understand.
At least be honest here. Being a student of the Bible, you know damn well
that Jesus was not referring to his "father" when he uttered the words,
"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" (My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken
me?)
when dying on the cross! Even the translators of the Septuagint knew to
translate "Eloi" as [My] "God," and *not* "Father" ("Abba"). Notice that
Jesus does not cry out "Abba, Abba"? I wonder why?
Easy - what he was doing was praying an OT prayer.
Could it be that he felt
betrayed and abandoned by a God who he feels has let him down?
Greywolf
Nope.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
How could you *possibly* know that? Yes, there are number of scholars who
feel Jesus *may* have been reciting Psalms 22:1 here, but no one can say for
sure. Jesus' words are actually a combination of Hebrew *and* Aramaic and
thus, it remains pure conjecture as to whether Jesus' was reciting an OT
prayer or not. (Note: In Mt. 27:46 he is said to have uttered, "Eli, Eli,
lama sabachthani!" instead.) But as you probably know, the words, "Why art
thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my *roaring*." [Emphasis
mine] conclude the passage in the Psalms. If Jesus didn't feel abandoned or
let down by his God, then what *was* he feeling? It is quite an odd passage
for Jesus to cite - if, indeed, he was quoting Psalms 22:1 - given the
circumstances. Don't you agree?
Greywolf
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
11 Jul 2005 10:27:43 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet duke (duckgumbo32@cox.net)
made the light shine upon us with this:
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:01:21 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
Actually, he's referring to his Father.
But no one expects you to understand.
At least be honest here. Being a student of the Bible, you know damn
well that Jesus was not referring to his "father" when he uttered the
words, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" (My God, my God, why hast thou
forsaken me?) when dying on the cross! Even the translators of the
Septuagint knew to translate "Eloi" as [My] "God," and *not* "Father"
("Abba"). Notice that Jesus does not cry out "Abba, Abba"? I wonder
why?
Easy - what he was doing was praying an OT prayer.
And this is wrong? Did Jesus sin?
Could it be that he felt
betrayed and abandoned by a God who he feels has let him down?
Greywolf
Nope.
Please explain why.
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
http://home.comcast.net/~vickman/
______________
'03 XVS650A
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
12 Jul 2005 12:00:33 PM |
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On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:27:43 -0500, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com> wrote:
Easy - what he was doing was praying an OT prayer.
And this is wrong? Did Jesus sin?
Prayer is right, and no, Jesus didn't sin.
Are you really trying to equate the two, silly boy?
Could it be that he felt
betrayed and abandoned by a God who he feels has let him down?
Greywolf
Nope.
Please explain why.
He gave his life willingly. In fact, Jesus is God become flesh.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Wayne Delia" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
12 Jul 2005 02:24:43 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:27:43 -0500, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com> wrote:
Easy - what he was doing was praying an OT prayer.
And this is wrong? Did Jesus sin?
Prayer is right, and no, Jesus didn't sin.
Prayer is pointless and unnecessary, given that God is assumed to be
omniscient and that He knows the outcome of future events with perfect
accuracy. Praying to God petitioning Him to change the course of current
events or asking Him to consider another option is worthless if the
future option cannot change - for if it did, then what God knows now
about what will happen in the future would be wrong, thus negating God's
omniscience. That reduces prayer down to the dubious utility of
providing an opportunity for people to think they have any influence in
God's Perfect Plan, or (like Cathaholics) pray to other fantasy figures
whom they figure can intercede and broker a deal with God, even though
He cannot possibly do any such thing or make any such accommodation.
Further, there are Scriptural references which indicate that Jesus broke
the Commandments involving "Honor the Sabbath," "Honor thy Father and
thy Mother," "Thou shalt not steal," and "Thou shalt not bear false
witness." In fact, the excuse Jesus gave for breaking "Honor the
Sabbath" was, essentially, the claim that He was above the Law. That
didn't work for Richard Nixon during Watergate, either.
Are you really trying to equate the two, silly boy?
You're looking pretty darn silly yourself, Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrl.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Child Abuse."
Pope Paul VI
*****
WMD
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
12 Jul 2005 05:58:36 PM |
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On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:24:43 GMT, Wayne Delia <wmd@deliafamily.net> wrote:
And this is wrong? Did Jesus sin?
Prayer is right, and no, Jesus didn't sin.
Prayer is pointless and unnecessary, given that God is assumed to be
omniscient and that He knows the outcome of future events with perfect
accuracy.
Which has nothing to do with prayer.
Praying to God petitioning Him to change the course of current
events or asking Him to consider another option is worthless if the
future option cannot change
If it's his will, it can change.
Further, there are Scriptural references which indicate that Jesus broke
the Commandments involving "Honor the Sabbath," "Honor thy Father and
thy Mother," "Thou shalt not steal," and "Thou shalt not bear false
witness." In fact, the excuse Jesus gave for breaking "Honor the
Sabbath" was, essentially, the claim that He was above the Law.
No, Jesus never broke the 10 Commandments, the commandments of God. Jesus broke
the manmade laws which were meaningless.
That
didn't work for Richard Nixon during Watergate, either.
Jesus is not Richard Nixon.
Are you really trying to equate the two, silly boy?
You're looking pretty darn silly yourself, Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrl.
Why? You're the one that doesn't understand, not me.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
12 Jul 2005 09:29:33 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet duke (duckgumbo32@cox.net)
made the light shine upon us with this:
Praying to God petitioning Him to change the course of current
events or asking Him to consider another option is worthless if the
future option cannot change
If it's his will, it can change.
We have no reference point by which we can compare. No first future to
compare to the changed one to see if it actually changed. How do we know
the god's will changed? Because the religious ***** said so.
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
http://home.comcast.net/~vickman/
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'03 XVS650A
'04 XVS1100
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
12 Jul 2005 09:51:50 PM |
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Uncle Vic wrote:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet duke
(duckgumbo32@cox.net) made the light shine upon us with this:
Praying to God petitioning Him to change the course of current
events or asking Him to consider another option is worthless if the
future option cannot change
If it's his will, it can change.
We have no reference point by which we can compare. No first future
to compare to the changed one to see if it actually changed. How do
we know the god's will changed? Because the religious ***** said
so.
Only those that think of this god as something like a man or who have never
question the concept of a "perfect" anything. Perfection can't change.
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
13 Jul 2005 11:21:17 AM |
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on 12 Jul 2005 in alt.atheism, dear sweet Mike Painter
(mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net) made the light shine upon us with this:
Uncle Vic wrote:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet duke
(duckgumbo32@cox.net) made the light shine upon us with this:
Praying to God petitioning Him to change the course of current
events or asking Him to consider another option is worthless if
the future option cannot change
If it's his will, it can change.
We have no reference point by which we can compare. No first future
to compare to the changed one to see if it actually changed. How do
we know the god's will changed? Because the religious ***** said
so.
Only those that think of this god as something like a man or who have
never question the concept of a "perfect" anything. Perfection can't
change.
Only to a different kind of perfect, I guess.
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
http://home.comcast.net/~vickman/
______________
'03 XVS650A
'04 XVS1100
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| User: "Wayne Delia" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
13 Jul 2005 11:10:16 PM |
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Uncle Vic wrote:
on 12 Jul 2005 in alt.atheism, dear sweet Mike Painter
(mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net) made the light shine upon us with this:
Uncle Vic wrote:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet duke
(duckgumbo32@cox.net) made the light shine upon us with this:
Praying to God petitioning Him to change the course of current
events or asking Him to consider another option is worthless if
the future option cannot change
If it's his will, it can change.
We have no reference point by which we can compare. No first future
to compare to the changed one to see if it actually changed. How do
we know the god's will changed? Because the religious ***** said
so.
Only those that think of this god as something like a man or who have
never question the concept of a "perfect" anything. Perfection can't
change.
Only to a different kind of perfect, I guess.
"Some Gods are more perfect than others."
--
Wayne Delia,
Delta Iota Chapter Advisor, Phi Kappa Sigma at Marist College
"Don't eat me! I have a wife and kids! Eat them!" (Homer Simpson)
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| User: "Wayne Delia" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
12 Jul 2005 06:44:01 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:24:43 GMT, Wayne Delia < > wrote:
And this is wrong? Did Jesus sin?
Prayer is right, and no, Jesus didn't sin.
Prayer is pointless and unnecessary, given that God is assumed to be
omniscient and that He knows the outcome of future events with perfect
accuracy.
Which has nothing to do with prayer.
Sure it does. You just missed the point. If the future can't change,
because God knows it will be a certain way, then petitioning God to
change (or consider changing) future events through prayer is pointless
and unnecessary.
Praying to God petitioning Him to change the course of current
events or asking Him to consider another option is worthless if the
future option cannot change
If it's his will, it can change.
And if it changes at all, then what He currently knows about future
events is necessarily wrong. If God knows that future event X will have
the outcome Y, then it can't possibly change. If it does, then God is
wrong about what the outcome will be.
Further, there are Scriptural references which indicate that Jesus broke
the Commandments involving "Honor the Sabbath," "Honor thy Father and
thy Mother," "Thou shalt not steal," and "Thou shalt not bear false
witness." In fact, the excuse Jesus gave for breaking "Honor the
Sabbath" was, essentially, the claim that He was above the Law.
No, Jesus never broke the 10 Commandments, the commandments of God. Jesus broke
the manmade laws which were meaningless.
You're wrong, but so what? Your ignorance is not exactly something that
needs to be proved. I can give you the reference in which Jesus breaks
the Commandment regarding honoring the Sabbath by working on the Sabbath
(gathering grain that evidently wasn't even His) by claiming He was the
Lord of the Sabbath, and therefore above the Law. But you have a
peculiar cognitive dissonance about that, so you're cornered into
claiming the Bible doesn't mean what it actually says.
That
didn't work for Richard Nixon during Watergate, either.
Jesus is not Richard Nixon.
So, therefore, Jesus's claim that He doesn't have to follow the Law -
one of the Ten Commandments - because He's above the Law is legitimate,
where it wasn't for Richard Nixon?
Are you really trying to equate the two, silly boy?
You're looking pretty darn silly yourself, Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrl.
Why? You're the one that doesn't understand, not me.
Errrrrrrrrrrrrrl, you're so fucking retarded, but that's a big part of
your charm which is so endearing and valuable as a piece of comic relief
around here.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Blasphemy."
Pope Paul VI
*****
WMD
--
Wayne Delia,
Delta Iota Chapter Advisor, Phi Kappa Sigma at Marist College
"I'm beginning to sober up, and you're scaring me!" (Tom Servo, MST3K)
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
12 Jul 2005 08:43:23 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:24:43 GMT, Wayne Delia <wmd@deliafamily.net>
wrote:
And this is wrong? Did Jesus sin?
Prayer is right, and no, Jesus didn't sin.
Prayer is pointless and unnecessary, given that God is assumed to be
omniscient and that He knows the outcome of future events with
perfect accuracy.
Which has nothing to do with prayer.
Praying to God petitioning Him to change the course of current
events or asking Him to consider another option is worthless if the
future option cannot change
If it's his will, it can change.
The concept of a perfect being having the ability to change and what that
means is something that was not mentioned when Earl learned by rote what the
teachers learned by rote.
Nothing wrong with that if *they* learned it right and it was addition but
Earl is betting his "afterlife" on this.
He probably spent more time deciding what was the best deal in toothpaste
than thinking about it.
Perfection can't change.
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| User: "Eric" |
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| Title: Re: Why does Jesus pray to God? |
12 Jul 2005 03:44:19 PM |
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Wayne Delia <wmd@deliafamily.net> wrote:
duke wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:27:43 -0500, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com> wrote:
Easy - what he was doing was praying an OT prayer.
And this is wrong? Did Jesus sin?
Prayer is right, and no, Jesus didn't sin.
Prayer is pointless and unnecessary
For the Christian to believe this is to deny scripture which commands
all Christians to pray.
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