| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Iain" |
| Date: |
29 Jun 2005 04:25:57 AM |
| Object: |
Why people believe in afterlife. |
Dougal, my charismatic guinea pig, a hearty gentleman if ever there was
one, almost a nephew to I, his protector and friend, died yesterday
afternoon. I found his once energetic form strewn along the floor of
his cage like a bit of regular game.
After a decent sendoff, I could not stop thinking about the oddness of
that particular death...something about the suddeness of it made it
rather disconcerting. He had been toddling around happily this morning.
I discovered that the reason I had been so emotionally confused by his
death was that humans, and no doubt most mammals and intellectually
comparable animals, use an entirely different facet of conciousness to
deal with other people as entities.
This sounds obvious, and just a fancy way of saying "we see people as
special".
What I'm getting at, however, is something similar to the idea that a
blow to the head, although not affecting memory, can result in a person
not being able to recognise a single face without studying it carefully
and intellectually, but are able to recognise things like cars, etc.
This demostrates that facial recognition is a seperate and specialised
function from recognition of miscellaneous things. I suspect that
navigation is a seperate thing also, but I digress.
It seems to me that we have a side to our conciousness that features a
sort of cast of characters, the side that lets us feel the sensation of
not being alone in the room if someone is there.
For this reason, the fact that a dead person has left the scope of a
person's miscellaneous recognition function, does not mean that their
"spirit" is de-registered from the other function.
When I looked at Dougal, I could intellectualise that he was just a
machine that stopped working, but my "Cast of characters" registered
strongly the abstractions around him, which could not in my mind be so
easily destroyed, because I did not connect the machine with the
"spirit".
Of course, I cannot physically locate him anymore, so the sensation is
that he is there as a spirit, just somewhere else, where I cannot get
to.
I think it takes a while for a person to be struck off the cast list,
even though they are not on the stage, leading to a sort of profound
confusion.
~Iain
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| User: "Mark" |
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| Title: Re: Why people believe in afterlife. |
29 Jun 2005 08:32:49 PM |
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"Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:1120037157.913756.93930@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
Dougal, my charismatic guinea pig, a hearty gentleman if ever there
was one, almost a nephew to I, his protector and friend, died
yesterday afternoon. I found his once energetic form strewn along
the floor of his cage like a bit of regular game.
dang, I hope you haven't waited too long...but in any case,
don't delay: do it TODAY!!! fry that sucker right now...
guinea pigs are positively yummy, fried, fricasseed, boiled,
broiled, roasted, and/or toasted
--
Mark
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Why people believe in afterlife. |
29 Jun 2005 06:03:19 AM |
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"Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120037157.913756.93930@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Dougal, my charismatic guinea pig, a hearty gentleman if ever there was
one, almost a nephew to I, his protector and friend, died yesterday
afternoon. I found his once energetic form strewn along the floor of
his cage like a bit of regular game.
After a decent sendoff, I could not stop thinking about the oddness of
that particular death...something about the suddeness of it made it
rather disconcerting. He had been toddling around happily this morning.
I discovered that the reason I had been so emotionally confused by his
death was that humans, and no doubt most mammals and intellectually
comparable animals, use an entirely different facet of conciousness to
deal with other people as entities.
This sounds obvious, and just a fancy way of saying "we see people as
special".
What I'm getting at, however, is something similar to the idea that a
blow to the head, although not affecting memory, can result in a person
not being able to recognise a single face without studying it carefully
and intellectually, but are able to recognise things like cars, etc.
This demostrates that facial recognition is a seperate and specialised
function from recognition of miscellaneous things. I suspect that
navigation is a seperate thing also, but I digress.
It seems to me that we have a side to our conciousness that features a
sort of cast of characters, the side that lets us feel the sensation of
not being alone in the room if someone is there.
For this reason, the fact that a dead person has left the scope of a
person's miscellaneous recognition function, does not mean that their
"spirit" is de-registered from the other function.
When I looked at Dougal, I could intellectualise that he was just a
machine that stopped working, but my "Cast of characters" registered
strongly the abstractions around him, which could not in my mind be so
easily destroyed, because I did not connect the machine with the
"spirit".
Of course, I cannot physically locate him anymore, so the sensation is
that he is there as a spirit, just somewhere else, where I cannot get
to.
I think it takes a while for a person to be struck off the cast list,
even though they are not on the stage, leading to a sort of profound
confusion.
~Iain
That was pretty eloquent. Dougal will live on as long as he is still alive
in your memory. (Sounds hokey, I know, but it's true - in a figurative
sense.)
As far as why people believe in an afterlife: I think it's partially because
it's hard to accept that *this* life is all there is, that all the pain and
suffering we've endured in our lives is for nothing, and that all the creeps
who have F'd us over in our life have gotten clean away with it. "There
*has* to be some kind of justice!" the mind tells us, "otherwise life would
be "unfair."" Hence the 2nd go-around. (And it's funny to think that most
people naturally assume that this 2nd go-around extends for eternity.) Of
course in this imagined afterlife you wouldn't have *any* problems, etc. The
longer you really think about it, the more preposterous that idea becomes.
(I guess that's why someone came up with reincarnation instead.) Another
part of the equation, I think, is that some people just don't like the idea
of being non-existent. They're sooo precious.
Just as an aside, you mention this "cast of characters, the side that lets
us feel the sensation of
not being alone in the room if someone is there." It made me think of how
often I've felt *utterly* alone despite being in a sea of people.
Greywolf
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Why people believe in afterlife. |
29 Jun 2005 06:44:40 AM |
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Greywolf <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Iain <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote in message
I think it takes a while for a person to be struck off the cast list,
even though they are not on the stage, leading to a sort of profound
confusion.
That was pretty eloquent. Dougal will live on as long as he is still alive
in your memory. (Sounds hokey, I know, but it's true - in a figurative
sense.)
That's the same thing I said in my post. It's comforting in a way, at
least to me.
As far as why people believe in an afterlife: I think it's partially because
it's hard to accept that *this* life is all there is, that all the pain and
suffering we've endured in our lives is for nothing,
If your life consisted mostly of pain and suffering, then I can see
where it would be a bigger attraction for a person, but if you've
lived a life with mostly happy or at least non-sad things, then I
don't think heaven or some happy afterlife is that big a deal or
desire.
and that all the creeps who have F'd us over in our life have gotten clean
away with it. "There *has* to be some kind of justice!" the mind tells us, "otherwise
life would be "unfair."
That's why we've invented human courts, and juries, and the justice
system. To do what we think some perfect god would do if he were a
human... To do what no god can do, actually, since none of them can
speak for themselves...
Hence the 2nd go-around. (And it's funny to think that most
people naturally assume that this 2nd go-around extends for eternity.) Of
course in this imagined afterlife you wouldn't have *any* problems, etc. The
longer you really think about it, the more preposterous that idea becomes.
(I guess that's why someone came up with reincarnation instead.) Another
part of the equation, I think, is that some people just don't like the idea
of being non-existent. They're sooo precious.
Considering oneself "saved" leads to pompousness and egoism in many
cases, which I find annoying...
Just as an aside, you mention this "cast of characters, the side that lets
us feel the sensation of not being alone in the room if someone is there."
It made me think of how often I've felt *utterly* alone despite being in a
sea of people.
That's peculiar. :)
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "alen" |
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| Title: Re: Why people believe in afterlife. |
29 Jun 2005 10:19:49 AM |
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Greywolf wrote:
As far as why people believe in an afterlife: I think it's partially because
it's hard to accept that *this* life is all there is, that all the pain and
suffering we've endured in our lives is for nothing, and that all the creeps
who have F'd us over in our life have gotten clean away with it. "There
*has* to be some kind of justice!" the mind tells us, "otherwise life would
be "unfair."" Hence the 2nd go-around. (And it's funny to think that most
people naturally assume that this 2nd go-around extends for eternity.) Of
course in this imagined afterlife you wouldn't have *any* problems, etc. The
longer you really think about it, the more preposterous that idea becomes.
(I guess that's why someone came up with reincarnation instead.) Another
part of the equation, I think, is that some people just don't like the idea
of being non-existent. They're sooo precious.
The question is: is the objection to extinction merely
like the trivial protest of a spoilt child who, when
being told there will be no more ice cream today,
refuses to think such a thing is possible and proceeds
to shout 'but I want it, but I want it...'; or is the
intense revulsion against extinction the manifestation of
an intuitive awareness on the part of the inner consciousness
that its extinction is impossible?
Alen
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| User: "Iain" |
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| Title: Re: Why people believe in afterlife. |
29 Jun 2005 10:52:41 AM |
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alen wrote:
Greywolf wrote:
As far as why people believe in an afterlife: I think it's partially because
it's hard to accept that *this* life is all there is, that all the pain and
suffering we've endured in our lives is for nothing, and that all the creeps
who have F'd us over in our life have gotten clean away with it. "There
*has* to be some kind of justice!" the mind tells us, "otherwise life would
be "unfair."" Hence the 2nd go-around. (And it's funny to think that most
people naturally assume that this 2nd go-around extends for eternity.) Of
course in this imagined afterlife you wouldn't have *any* problems, etc. The
longer you really think about it, the more preposterous that idea becomes.
(I guess that's why someone came up with reincarnation instead.) Another
part of the equation, I think, is that some people just don't like the idea
of being non-existent. They're sooo precious.
The question is: is the objection to extinction merely
like the trivial protest of a spoilt child who, when
being told there will be no more ice cream today,
refuses to think such a thing is possible and proceeds
to shout 'but I want it, but I want it...'; or is the
intense revulsion against extinction the manifestation of
an intuitive awareness on the part of the inner consciousness
that its extinction is impossible?
I think the latter.
People are usually happy to intellectualise that a human brain can
cease functioning and understand that the brain may be the seat of
conciousness, etc.
Even a Christian who believes in the independent soul, usually is
capable of understanding the notion of conciousness as a function of
the brain.
However, they often refuse to accept the possibility of a lack of self
-- that not only will their experiences end, but that they themselves
will end.
Usually when thinking about death subjectively, do people refuse to
aknowledge oblivion.
It's like asking a computer to delete itself.
~Iain
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| User: "Nog" |
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| Title: Re: Why people believe in afterlife. |
29 Jun 2005 07:05:10 AM |
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"Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120037157.913756.93930@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Dougal, my charismatic guinea pig, a hearty gentleman if ever there was
one, almost a nephew to I, his protector and friend, died yesterday
afternoon. I found his once energetic form strewn along the floor of
his cage like a bit of regular game.
After a decent sendoff, I could not stop thinking about the oddness of
that particular death...something about the suddeness of it made it
rather disconcerting. He had been toddling around happily this morning.
I discovered that the reason I had been so emotionally confused by his
death was that humans, and no doubt most mammals and intellectually
comparable animals, use an entirely different facet of conciousness to
deal with other people as entities.
This sounds obvious, and just a fancy way of saying "we see people as
special".
What I'm getting at, however, is something similar to the idea that a
blow to the head, although not affecting memory, can result in a person
not being able to recognise a single face without studying it carefully
and intellectually, but are able to recognise things like cars, etc.
This demostrates that facial recognition is a seperate and specialised
function from recognition of miscellaneous things. I suspect that
navigation is a seperate thing also, but I digress.
It seems to me that we have a side to our conciousness that features a
sort of cast of characters, the side that lets us feel the sensation of
not being alone in the room if someone is there.
For this reason, the fact that a dead person has left the scope of a
person's miscellaneous recognition function, does not mean that their
"spirit" is de-registered from the other function.
When I looked at Dougal, I could intellectualise that he was just a
machine that stopped working, but my "Cast of characters" registered
strongly the abstractions around him, which could not in my mind be so
easily destroyed, because I did not connect the machine with the
"spirit".
Of course, I cannot physically locate him anymore, so the sensation is
that he is there as a spirit, just somewhere else, where I cannot get
to.
I think it takes a while for a person to be struck off the cast list,
even though they are not on the stage, leading to a sort of profound
confusion.
~Iain
It's actually because they are so self important that they can't possibly
become as they were before conception; nothing.
We learned the concept of zero after many thousands of years. Now we have to
learn the concept of nothing and stop making up all this afterlife *****.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Why people believe in afterlife. |
29 Jun 2005 08:27:44 AM |
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Nog <nognog@adelphia.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Now we have to learn the concept of nothing and stop making up
all this afterlife *****.
But the afterlife business is big money, in more ways than one!
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Gail Futoran" |
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| Title: Re: Why people believe in afterlife. |
29 Jun 2005 10:46:56 AM |
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"Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120037157.913756.93930@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Dougal, my charismatic guinea pig, a hearty gentleman if ever there was
one, almost a nephew to I, his protector and friend, died yesterday
afternoon. I found his once energetic form strewn along the floor of
his cage like a bit of regular game.
[snip] [crosspost snipped]
Lovely essay. I've lost several beloved pets to old age
(I'm fortunate in that regard) and felt much the same as
you. Re my own death:
I've thought often that when I die the universe ends.
I know that sounds egotistical (and I'm not a
philosopher so this won't be elegant) but it's really
not. It's more an acknowledgement that for me, and
I suspect most humans, reality is as perceived through
my own consciousness. When that ends, what
else is there?
I DO know everything will go on after I die. (Really.
I know that.) And I would like to believe in an
afterlife - something like reincarnation would be lovely
as long as I came back looking like, oh, Xena or
Gabrielle. :)
But it's a fantasy. So I can contemplate an afterlife
as such, just as I can enjoy Kevin Smith's "Dogma"
despite being a committed atheist. (Although the
past four years has come close to turning me off
all things religious.)
I've often thought the problem with the religious nuts
(IMO not all very religious people are what I would
consider "nuts") is that they lack an imagination,
and can't distinguish fantasy from reality. :)
Gail
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Why people believe in afterlife. |
29 Jun 2005 06:10:35 AM |
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Iain <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Dougal, my charismatic guinea pig, a hearty gentleman if ever there was
one, almost a nephew to I, his protector and friend, died yesterday
afternoon. I found his once energetic form strewn along the floor of
his cage like a bit of regular game.
After a decent sendoff, I could not stop thinking about the oddness of
that particular death...something about the suddeness of it made it
rather disconcerting. He had been toddling around happily this morning.
Bummer... What was the cause of death?
Of course, I cannot physically locate him anymore, so the sensation is
that he is there as a spirit, just somewhere else, where I cannot get
to.
I think it takes a while for a person to be struck off the cast list,
even though they are not on the stage, leading to a sort of profound
confusion.
I think that's what leads some people to visit graves and talk to
their dead loved ones. They think perhaps the dead person's spirit is
hanging around the grave, or looking down from up above, watching the
person pay their respects, etc. Eventually, though, the feeling
wears off for most people, and I don't know many people who visit
graves for more than a few years.
You can still remember Dougal in your mind, and as long as your
memories of him are still alive in your mind, at least part of him
still survives, in a way.
If that's not comforting to you, you could believe in a guinea pig
heaven if it makes you feel better...
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Iain" |
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| Title: Re: Why people believe in afterlife. |
29 Jun 2005 07:50:10 AM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Iain <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Dougal, my charismatic guinea pig, a hearty gentleman if ever there was
one, almost a nephew to I, his protector and friend, died yesterday
afternoon. I found his once energetic form strewn along the floor of
his cage like a bit of regular game.
After a decent sendoff, I could not stop thinking about the oddness of
that particular death...something about the suddeness of it made it
rather disconcerting. He had been toddling around happily this morning.
Bummer... What was the cause of death?
I'm not sure. Does a guinea pig die quite spontaneously? Are they
likely to show ailment days earlier? He was okay one minute and dead
about three hours later. I left him in quite a hot conservatory but
with the door open, and lots of water in his wee tank.
Of course, I cannot physically locate him anymore, so the sensation is
that he is there as a spirit, just somewhere else, where I cannot get
to.
I think it takes a while for a person to be struck off the cast list,
even though they are not on the stage, leading to a sort of profound
confusion.
I think that's what leads some people to visit graves and talk to
their dead loved ones. They think perhaps the dead person's spirit is
hanging around the grave, or looking down from up above, watching the
person pay their respects, etc. Eventually, though, the feeling
wears off for most people, and I don't know many people who visit
graves for more than a few years.
I think a person's percieved identity lives on even without the person
there.
You can still remember Dougal in your mind, and as long as your
memories of him are still alive in your mind, at least part of him
still survives, in a way.
If that's not comforting to you, you could believe in a guinea pig
heaven if it makes you feel better...
His life was heaven. He just sat in his cage, reading The Times, or
hiding under it.
~Iain
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Why people believe in afterlife. |
29 Jun 2005 08:25:50 AM |
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Iain <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Iain <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Dougal, my charismatic guinea pig, a hearty gentleman if ever there was
one, almost a nephew to I, his protector and friend, died yesterday
afternoon. I found his once energetic form strewn along the floor of
his cage like a bit of regular game.
After a decent sendoff, I could not stop thinking about the oddness of
that particular death...something about the suddeness of it made it
rather disconcerting. He had been toddling around happily this morning.
Bummer... What was the cause of death?
I'm not sure. Does a guinea pig die quite spontaneously? Are they
likely to show ailment days earlier? He was okay one minute and dead
about three hours later. I left him in quite a hot conservatory but
with the door open, and lots of water in his wee tank.
How old was he, and how long do guinea pigs normally live? I've never
had one myself. Maybe he simply died of old age?
Of course, I cannot physically locate him anymore, so the sensation is
that he is there as a spirit, just somewhere else, where I cannot get
to.
I think it takes a while for a person to be struck off the cast list,
even though they are not on the stage, leading to a sort of profound
confusion.
I think that's what leads some people to visit graves and talk to
their dead loved ones. They think perhaps the dead person's spirit is
hanging around the grave, or looking down from up above, watching the
person pay their respects, etc. Eventually, though, the feeling
wears off for most people, and I don't know many people who visit
graves for more than a few years.
I think a person's percieved identity lives on even without the person
there.
Yes, in other people's memories, or in the dead person's writings or
works of art or their offspring. I can see the eyes of Elvis when I
look at the eyes of Lisa Presley. Or maybe she's just done a good
makeup job, I dunno...
You can still remember Dougal in your mind, and as long as your
memories of him are still alive in your mind, at least part of him
still survives, in a way.
If that's not comforting to you, you could believe in a guinea pig
heaven if it makes you feel better...
His life was heaven. He just sat in his cage, reading The Times, or
hiding under it.
Perhaps he longed to adventure beyond his cage?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: Why people believe in afterlife. |
29 Jun 2005 03:20:39 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
I can see the eyes of Elvis when I look at the eyes of
Lisa Presley. Or maybe she's just done a good
makeup job, I dunno...
No, you're right, she really *does* have his eyes. I think the same
thing every time I see her pic.
Brenda Nelson, A.A..#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: Why people believe in afterlife. |
29 Jun 2005 03:18:36 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
If that's not comforting to you, you could believe in a guinea pig
heaven if it makes you feel better...
Dougal has Gone Over the Rainbow Bridge, which is where all beloved
critters go when they shuffle off their mortal coil. There, on the Far
Side, they play in the sunny grass and drink crystal-pure water and eat
anything they want. They exist in perfect harmony with one another,
the lion laying down with the lamb, so to speak. None of them are ever
beaten or abused there, nor do they suffer from physical ailments.
</comfort mode>
That is as close to "everlasting life" as I ever care to get. Compare
and contrast with "everlasting life, human, Heaven."
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Why people believe in afterlife. |
29 Jun 2005 10:14:08 AM |
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Iain wrote:
-snip-
I think it takes a while for a person to be struck off the cast list,
even though they are not on the stage, leading to a sort of profound
confusion.
-remove crossposting-
Yeah, you have the right idea. There's a chapter about death rituals
in Boyer's book "Religion Explained", sounds like you have the same idea.
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
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| User: "Iain" |
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| Title: Re: Why people believe in afterlife. |
29 Jun 2005 04:36:02 AM |
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Iain wrote:
Dougal, my charismatic guinea pig, a hearty gentleman if ever there was
one, almost a nephew to I, his protector and friend, died yesterday
afternoon. I found his once energetic form strewn along the floor of
his cage like a bit of regular game.
After a decent sendoff, I could not stop thinking about the oddness of
that particular death...something about the suddeness of it made it
rather disconcerting. He had been toddling around happily this morning.
I should clarify --- he was alive YESTERDAY morning and is not a
zombie.
~Iain
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Why people believe in afterlife. |
29 Jun 2005 03:08:14 PM |
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It's quite simple. Most people have an INTOLERABLE FEAR OF DEATH AND THE
END. To alley this fear they concoct an eternal life in Heaven.
"Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120037157.913756.93930@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Dougal, my charismatic guinea pig, a hearty gentleman if ever there was
one, almost a nephew to I, his protector and friend, died yesterday
afternoon. I found his once energetic form strewn along the floor of
his cage like a bit of regular game.
After a decent sendoff, I could not stop thinking about the oddness of
that particular death...something about the suddeness of it made it
rather disconcerting. He had been toddling around happily this morning.
I discovered that the reason I had been so emotionally confused by his
death was that humans, and no doubt most mammals and intellectually
comparable animals, use an entirely different facet of conciousness to
deal with other people as entities.
This sounds obvious, and just a fancy way of saying "we see people as
special".
What I'm getting at, however, is something similar to the idea that a
blow to the head, although not affecting memory, can result in a person
not being able to recognise a single face without studying it carefully
and intellectually, but are able to recognise things like cars, etc.
This demostrates that facial recognition is a seperate and specialised
function from recognition of miscellaneous things. I suspect that
navigation is a seperate thing also, but I digress.
It seems to me that we have a side to our conciousness that features a
sort of cast of characters, the side that lets us feel the sensation of
not being alone in the room if someone is there.
For this reason, the fact that a dead person has left the scope of a
person's miscellaneous recognition function, does not mean that their
"spirit" is de-registered from the other function.
When I looked at Dougal, I could intellectualise that he was just a
machine that stopped working, but my "Cast of characters" registered
strongly the abstractions around him, which could not in my mind be so
easily destroyed, because I did not connect the machine with the
"spirit".
Of course, I cannot physically locate him anymore, so the sensation is
that he is there as a spirit, just somewhere else, where I cannot get
to.
I think it takes a while for a person to be struck off the cast list,
even though they are not on the stage, leading to a sort of profound
confusion.
~Iain
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| User: "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" |
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| Title: Re: Why people believe in afterlife. |
29 Jun 2005 06:57:27 AM |
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because they are fucking idiots?
because their life is so miserable here on earth that they are hoping for
something better?
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