| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
05 Apr 2006 04:40:25 AM |
| Object: |
Why Pope John Paul II Proclaimed So Many Saints |
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1609328/posts
Why John Paul II Proclaimed so Many Saints
Zenit News Agency ^ | April 4, 2006
Posted on 04/04/2006 7:11:06 PM PDT by NYer
Interview With Cardinal Saraiva Martins
VATICAN CITY, APRIL 4, 2006 (Zenit.org).- Quoting Pope John Paul II,
Cardinal Jos=E9 Saraiva Martins insists that "there aren't too many
saints."
ZENIT interviewed the prefect of the Congregation for Sainthood Causes
to learn more about the workings of this Vatican dicastery. He also
commented on the number of John Paul II's canonizations -- pegged at
480.
Q: How many causes of beatification and canonization have been
introduced at present?
Cardinal Saraiva Martins: The number is very high. There are more than
2,200 causes.
Of these, more than 400 have completed the "positio" [a kind of
report]; in other words, they are ready to be discussed, examined and
studied further by the dicastery's different collegial bodies; and by
historians when it is a question of a historical cause, theologians
when it is a question of virtues, doctors when an alleged miracle must
be studied and, finally, the cardinals of the congregation.
Q: Do you think there are too many or too few canonized saints?
Cardinal Saraiva Martins: Sometimes there is talk of a kind of
inflation of saints. Some speak of there being many saints but I answer
immediately that there aren't at all too many saints.
The number of saints and blessed increased in John Paul II's
pontificate. He alone proclaimed more saints and blessed than all his
predecessors together since 1588, the year this dicastery was founded.
John Paul II was very aware that there was talk of an inflation of
saints and blessed, and he responded that it wasn't true.
The first reason the Pope gave was that he, by beatifying so many
Servants of God, did no more than implement the Second Vatican Council,
which vigorously reaffirmed that holiness is the essential note of the
Church; that the Church is holy: one, holy, catholic, apostolic.
John Paul II also said that if the Church of Christ is not holy, it
isn't the Church of Christ, the true Church of Christ, the one he
desired and founded to continue his mission throughout the centuries.
Therefore, John Paul II said, holiness is what is most important in the
Church, according to the Second Vatican Council. Then no one should be
surprised by the fact that the Pope wished to propose so many models of
holiness to Christians, to the People of God.
The second reason is the extraordinary ecumenical importance of
holiness.
In "Novo Millennio Ineunte," the Pope said that the holiness of the
saints, blessed and martyrs is perhaps the most convincing ecumenism,
these are his words, because holiness, he said with even stronger
words, has its ultimate foundation in Christ, in whom the Church is not
divided.
Therefore, the ecumenism we all want calls for many saints, so that the
convincing ecumenism of holiness is placed in the candelabrum of the
holiness of the Church.
The Pope's third reason was that "the saints and blessed manifest the
charity of a local Church," that is, today, the Holy Father said, local
Churches are far more numerous than in the last 10 centuries.
Therefore, we shouldn't be surprised that there are also more saints,
more blessed who express and manifest the holiness of these increased
local Churches.
Q: What is the itinerary to attain to the honor of the altar, in other
words, how does one become a Servant of God, venerable, blessed and
saint?
Cardinal Saraiva Martins: According to juridical norms, every process
of beatification and canonization consists of two fundamental phases:
the diocesan "in loco" and the "Roman," namely, in the Holy See, in
this dicastery.
In the diocesan phase, the bishop is the only juridical person who can
decide if it is or is not a case of initiating a specific cause.
If a nun or layperson dies, the bishop must investigate if that person
was really holy or not, according to the faithful.
Only if there is a reputation for holiness among the faithful, together
with the local ecclesial community, can the bishop initiate the cause
of beatification, once having obtained the sanction of this dicastery
to begin the cause at the diocesan level.
If there is no reputation of holiness, if for the faithful that person
has no reputation of holiness, the bishop cannot even initiate the
cause.
This is very important, especially today, because there is much talk
about the role of the laity in the Church.
Here we have a very important and fundamental case in which it is the
laity that takes the first step in a cause of beatification. It is the
laity that must say to the bishop, "In our opinion this person is (or
is not) holy."
What must the bishop do specifically in the diocesan phase? First of
all he must create a commission, a tribunal and collect all the
documents relative to the person candidate to the cause of
beatification, canonization, heroic virtues, martyrdom if it is a
martyr, a miracle if there is an alleged miracle.
Once the bishop has collected all the documents relative to the person
who has a reputation for holiness, he sends all the documentation to
Rome, to the Holy See, to this dicastery.
Then the second phase begins, the Roman. When the documentation arrives
here, the task of this dicastery and of the different collegial bodies
within it is to examine and study it thoroughly.
For example, there is the historical consultation if it is about a
historical cause, that is, old, of which there are no living witnesses.
There is the theological commission which must study, in the light of
the documentation received by the diocese, if the real holiness of the
person does or does not emerge.
If it is a question of a miracle, the medical consultation must study
if the cure, the alleged miracle, is or is not really inexplicable in
the light of medical science. For this objective, we have 70 medical
specialists at our disposition. According to the nature of the cure
presented by the dicastery as an alleged miracle, we can examine the
case with the specialists of that branch of medicine.
If the doctors say that that cure has no scientific explanation, the
question goes to the theologians who must study the problem of the
relationship between the cure and the invocation and intercession of
the candidate to sainthood. For example, if the sick person has prayed
to Mother Teresa of Calcutta for his cure, that is, to intercede before
God so that he will be healed, as the miracle is wrought by God.
One must analyze if there is a causal nexus between this inexplicable
cure and the prayer that the sick person has made to God through the
intercession of Mother Teresa of Calcutta.
Then the miracle can and must be attributed to the intercession of
Mother Teresa. Therefore, the theologians must say if it is or is not a
miracle.
Of course, once all these phases are completed, the process goes to the
cardinals of the congregation. We have the so-called ordinary, made up
of 30 cardinals, archbishops and bishops. They are the ones who have
the last word.
The cardinals must or must not ratify, must or must not approve, the
conclusions of the historians, doctors and theologians.
If the cardinals' ordinary approves the conclusions of the theologians,
doctors and historians, the prefect of the dicastery takes it all to
the Holy Father.
He speaks with him, discusses the different phases of the process; and
he approves or does not approve, does or does not decide to beatify
this person.
Therefore, it is quite a long process with a diocesan and Roman phase.
They begin to be called Servants of God once the cause has been
introduced at the diocesan level.
They become Venerable Servants of God once the Church has recognized
their heroic virtues.
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| User: "Tron" |
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| Title: Re: Why Pope John Paul II Proclaimed So Many Saints |
05 Apr 2006 08:26:01 AM |
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"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> skrev i melding
news:1144230025.321954.49400@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1609328/posts
Why John Paul II Proclaimed so Many Saints
A more interesting question is how does the work of the comittee on new sins
progress?
It was felt that too many misdeeds were not specifically covered in the
bible (e.g. car speeding),
and so clergy all over the world were invited to a brainstorming, gathering
something between 10000 and 20000 new sins. Any idea when that will become
dogma?
T
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| User: "• R. L. Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Why Pope John Paul II Proclaimed So Many Saints |
05 Apr 2006 09:13:05 AM |
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In article <EtOdnaIJlIn2WK7ZRVnzvA@telenor.com>,
"Tron" <tronfuru@frizurf.no> wrote:
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> skrev i melding
news:1144230025.321954.49400@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1609328/posts
Why John Paul II Proclaimed so Many Saints
A more interesting question is how does the work of the comittee on new sins
progress?
It was felt that too many misdeeds were not specifically covered in the
bible (e.g. car speeding),
• Drunk-driving donkeys is apparently okay with Jesus since he made
fine wine at a wedding party for people who were already falling-down on
their ***** drunk, and obviously the drunk ones had to ride their asses
home after the party.
and so clergy all over the world were invited to a brainstorming, gathering
something between 10000 and 20000 new sins. Any idea when that will become
dogma?
• In the 1500s in Europe, holy men determined that eating potatoes was
a sin because they grew underground and that's where the Devil resides.
--
Rich. 805.386.3734
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| User: "erikc" |
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| Title: Re: Why Pope John Paul II Proclaimed So Many Saints |
05 Apr 2006 05:04:08 PM |
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On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 07:13:05 -0700, "• R. L. Measures" <r@somis.org> wrote:
In article <EtOdnaIJlIn2WK7ZRVnzvA@telenor.com>,
"Tron" <tronfuru@frizurf.no> wrote:
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> skrev i melding
news:1144230025.321954.49400@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1609328/posts
Why John Paul II Proclaimed so Many Saints
A more interesting question is how does the work of the comittee on new sins
progress?
It was felt that too many misdeeds were not specifically covered in the
bible (e.g. car speeding),
? Drunk-driving donkeys is apparently okay with Jesus since he made
fine wine at a wedding party for people who were already falling-down on
their ***** drunk, and obviously the drunk ones had to ride their asses
home after the party.
Donkeys, unlike cars, are self-steering vehicles. So the most likely source
of injury would come from the rider falling off his ***** onto his *****.
and so clergy all over the world were invited to a brainstorming, gathering
something between 10000 and 20000 new sins. Any idea when that will become
dogma?
If such a list is ever published, I'll bet some of the stuff they come up with
? In the 1500s in Europe, holy men determined that eating potatoes was
a sin because they grew underground and that's where the Devil resides.
That's rich.
Erikc (alt.atheist #002) | "An Fhirinne in aghaidh an tSaoil."
BAAWA Knight (retired) | "The Truth against the World."
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| User: " R. L. Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Why Pope John Paul II Proclaimed So Many Saints |
05 Apr 2006 08:09:52 PM |
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In article <tef832ti6mn6b8p1241hj2tnglmnfjeo6d@4ax.com>,
erikc <firewevr@airmail.net> wrote:
On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 07:13:05 -0700, "• R. L. Measures" <r@somis.org> wrote:
In article <EtOdnaIJlIn2WK7ZRVnzvA@telenor.com>,
"Tron" <tronfuru@frizurf.no> wrote:
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> skrev i melding
news:1144230025.321954.49400@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1609328/posts
Why John Paul II Proclaimed so Many Saints
A more interesting question is how does the work of the comittee on new
sins
progress?
It was felt that too many misdeeds were not specifically covered in the
bible (e.g. car speeding),
? Drunk-driving donkeys is apparently okay with Jesus since he made
fine wine at a wedding party for people who were already falling-down on
their ***** drunk, and obviously the drunk ones had to ride their asses
home after the party.
Donkeys, unlike cars, are self-steering vehicles. So the most likely source
of injury would come from the rider falling off his ***** onto his *****.
*** Excellent.
and so clergy all over the world were invited to a brainstorming,
gathering
something between 10000 and 20000 new sins. Any idea when that will become
dogma?
If such a list is ever published, I'll bet some of the stuff they come up
with
? In the 1500s in Europe, holy men determined that eating potatoes was
a sin because they grew underground and that's where the Devil resides.
That's rich.
*** That's the salvation business.
Erikc (alt.atheist #002) | "An Fhirinne in aghaidh an tSaoil."
BAAWA Knight (retired) | "The Truth against the World."
--
Rich. 805.386.3734
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| User: "LC" |
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| Title: Re: Why Pope John Paul II Proclaimed So Many Saints |
05 Apr 2006 09:29:15 AM |
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"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote in message
news:1144230025.321954.49400@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Why John Paul II Proclaimed so Many Saints
A feeble attempt to counteract the phenominal number of sinners that
surfaced in *his church* under *his watch*?
LC~ Thinks it's obvious.
"Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man --
living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every
day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not
want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special
place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he
will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry
forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you."~ George Carlin
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: Why Pope John Paul II Proclaimed So Many Saints |
05 Apr 2006 11:27:49 AM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, Sound of Trumpet poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1609328/posts
Why John Paul II Proclaimed so Many Saints
Zenit News Agency ^ | April 4, 2006
....
The first reason the Pope gave was that he, by beatifying so many
Servants of God, did no more than implement the Second Vatican Council,
which vigorously reaffirmed that holiness is the essential note of the
Church; that the Church is holy: one, holy, catholic, apostolic.
Translation: Eet's my job, mon.
....
The second reason is the extraordinary ecumenical importance of
holiness.
In "Novo Millennio Ineunte," the Pope said that the holiness of the
saints, blessed and martyrs is perhaps the most convincing ecumenism,
these are his words, because holiness, he said with even stronger
words, has its ultimate foundation in Christ, in whom the Church is not
divided.
Translation: We gotta keep up appearances.
....
The Pope's third reason was that "the saints and blessed manifest the
charity of a local Church," that is, today, the Holy Father said, local
Churches are far more numerous than in the last 10 centuries.
Therefore, we shouldn't be surprised that there are also more saints,
more blessed who express and manifest the holiness of these increased
local Churches.
Translation: There's a quota, mon.
....
Regards,
Josef
The neer to the church, the further from God.
-- John Heywood
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Why Pope John Paul II Proclaimed So Many Saints |
05 Apr 2006 06:04:29 AM |
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On 5 Apr 2006 02:40:25 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
Why John Paul II Proclaimed so Many Saints
Why non-Catholics should give a rat's ***** one way or the other might
be...?
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
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| User: "? R. L. Measures" |
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| Title: Re: Why Pope John Paul II Proclaimed So Many Saints |
05 Apr 2006 09:21:59 AM |
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In article <p097325ljodba5ei1e98l0ch253ci9sbrm@4ax.com>,
raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote:
On 5 Apr 2006 02:40:25 -0700, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
Why John Paul II Proclaimed so Many Saints
Why non-Catholics should give a rat's ***** one way or the other might
be...?
--
? Perhaps for the same reason they try to keep track of the plight of
altar boys. As I see it, the Roman church created no small amount of
hostility for itself by its early 20th century teaching that it is the
only path to Salvation, and that everybody else goes Straight to Hell
for damn sure.
What goes around, comes around.
cheers, R.
--
Rich. 805.386.3734
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| User: "ray ohara" |
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| Title: Re: Why Pope John Paul II Proclaimed So Many Saints |
05 Apr 2006 12:30:18 PM |
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"? R. L. Measures" As I see it, the Roman church created no small amount of
hostility for itself by its early 20th century teaching that it is the
only path to Salvation, and that everybody else goes Straight to Hell
for damn sure.
What goes around, comes around.
cheers, R.
what religion teaches otherwise.
the only religious bigotry i've ever encountered was from protestants.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Why Pope John Paul II Proclaimed So Many Saints |
05 Apr 2006 03:09:32 PM |
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I'm not sure John Paul II is qualified to Sainthood( IMO, he himself
would problably decline the Honor), But with all his myriad
Accomplishments for Reconciliation, Peace, & Human rights; History will
JUSTLY TITLE him as the "GREAT".
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| User: "ray ohara" |
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| Title: Re: Why Pope John Paul II Proclaimed So Many Saints |
05 Apr 2006 04:16:42 PM |
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<rayadaps@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1144267772.296775.315150@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I'm not sure John Paul II is qualified to Sainthood( IMO, he himself
would problably decline the Honor), But with all his myriad
Accomplishments for Reconciliation, Peace, & Human rights; History will
JUSTLY TITLE him as the "GREAT".
sainthood. ***** no. he was a childmolester coddling ratfink.
if i hadn't given up on religion long ago i certainly would now.
the catholic church is an embarrassment.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Why Pope John Paul II Proclaimed So Many Saints |
05 Apr 2006 03:24:48 PM |
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On 5 Apr 2006 13:09:32 -0700, wrote:
I'm not sure John Paul II is qualified to Sainthood( IMO, he himself
would problably decline the Honor), But with all his myriad
Accomplishments for Reconciliation, Peace, & Human rights; History will
JUSTLY TITLE him as the "GREAT".
For his campaign against condeoms which turned AIDS in sub-Saharan
Africa endemic, condemning millions to a lingering, terrible death?
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| User: "Conspiracy of Doves" |
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| Title: Re: Why Pope John Paul II Proclaimed So Many Saints |
05 Apr 2006 09:56:54 AM |
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Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1609328/posts
I thought it was because PJP2 threw the office of Devil's Advocate out
of the Vatican, so there was no longer any official internal opposition
to him sainting anyone he wanted.
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| User: "Tron" |
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| Title: Re: Why Pope John Paul II Proclaimed So Many Saints |
06 Apr 2006 07:41:21 AM |
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"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> skrev i melding
news:1144249014.184677.306820@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1609328/posts
.... Devil's Advocate ...
I wonder if he's allowed sessions with his client.
T
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