Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals?



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "words of truth"
Date: 04 Nov 2005 04:37:35 AM
Object: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals?
Why secular people still want Christian funerals
Church Times of London
August 5, 2005
Alan Billings
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1462898/posts
APART FROM the horseracing tipster on the BBC's Today programme, no
one has a worse record for predictions than the sociologist of
religion. The classical sociologists expected organised religion to
wither on the vine. Religion might be the heart of a heartless world
and the opiate of the people, but, once the people were liberated and
prosperous, there would be no need for supernatural consolations.
As societies modernised, and human life was organised in an
increasingly rational manner, superstition (for which read religion)
would disappear. In global terms, none predicted the pentecostal and
charismatic surge within Christianity. None foresaw the Islamic
revival. All would find the contemporary religious culture of the
United Sates inexplicable.
The sociology of religion in this country is likely to be an even more
unreliable guide, since it is incorrigibly Europe-centred, and, as a
result, still largely in the grip of those earlier theories of
secularisation. This seems to make it incurious about significant
pieces of evidence that fly in the face of secular assumptions.
For example, if we are so secular, why does the religious funeral
persist? Not just most, but the overwhelming majority, of funerals are
religious. This seems to me an important question, and one that clergy
need to think hard about as well, if we are to continue to offer
effective ministry to the bereaved.
FOR THE PAST two years, I have been thinking around this question. As I
have visited people in my Kendal parish to arrange the funeral of loved
ones, I have tried to tease out what it is that they think a religious
funeral offers, as opposed to a secular one.
Of course, it is open for someone to say that when someone dies there
is little choice. It is the vicar or nobody. Everything happens so
swiftly, and you are emotionally so fragile, that there simply isn't
time to look around for a secular alternative.
There is some truth in this, though not much. It is true that people
would have to be very quick off the mark in Kendal to avoid a religious
funeral, since there are such good working relationships between
funeral directors and clergy that clergy can be visiting the bereaved
within hours of a death being notified. These days, though, almost
everyone lives into advanced old age; we have many years in which to
think about our obsequies, and to make our wishes known.
Also, in our consumerist society, I am sure that if the demand for
secular funerals were there, a national alternative to the religious
funeral would by now have emerged. So why does the religious funeral
persist?
There is space to suggest two reasons. This is how I make sense of what
people say - though interpretation is not always easy.
THE FIRST reason has to do with the contrast between a religious and a
secular funeral. This became clear to me earlier this year when I was
asked to officiate at the funeral of someone I had known for 30 years.
I was surprised to be asked, because the friend was an atheist, and his
partner wanted a secular funeral. Not without difficulty, though out of
friendship, I agreed.
For a Christian priest, however, this was like trying to save someone
from drowning with your arms and legs tied together. Much of what I
would want to say, I could not say. Much of what I would want to do -
such as pray and commend my friend to God - I had to refrain from
doing.
The occasion consisted of favourite pieces of music and short eulogies
by friends, all with an amusing story or two. (And it was all done
well.) It was a "celebration" of a life. And that, of course, gives
the clue. The secular funeral can look only in one direction -
backwards, to a life now lived.
It is literally hopeless, for hope is about the future, and the one
thing the non-believer knows is that there is no future beyond physical
death; for without God there could be no future beyond physical death.
Many people may not be convinced believers, but they want to keep the
door of hope at least ajar. The secular funeral slams it shut.
This leads into a second reason why the religious funeral persists. The
secular funeral essentially makes a utilitarian evaluation of the life
lived, based on the contribution the deceased has made - as partner,
parent, friend, citizen. This works for many funerals, but by no means
all. Some of these are obvious: I think immediately of the funerals of
a suicide; a severely mentally handicapped baby; a young man who
destroyed his life and that of others in a drink-induced car crash; a
young woman who gave her short life to drugs.
With other funerals, we pick our way with care: there may not be a
whole skeleton in the cupboard, but we are made aware of a few bones.
It then becomes hard or forced to find convincing reasons to be wholly
celebratory.
But, in the church funeral, the evaluation of a life is religious, not
utilitarian: whatever we have done in and with our lives, Christ died
for us. This allows us to express a range of emotions: sorrow and
sadness, guilt and regret, despair and anger, as well as thankfulness
and pride. All can be accommodated. We don't even have to labour any
point, since the liturgy takes care of it. And, at the key moment, the
rite is unambiguous: we commend the dead to God.
We do live in a time of no religion - a time when many people do not
want regular contact with organised religion. This makes those moments
when they do of considerable significance. We need to keep puzzling out
why that is, so that we can minister more effectively. Why do people
ask for a religious funeral? Because it allows us to say our farewells
with integrity, and does not close the door on hope.
Canon Dr Alan Billings is the Vicar of St George's, Kendal, and St
John's, Grayrigg, and the author of Secular Lives, Sacred Hearts: The
role of the Church in a time of no religion (SPCK, 2004).
.

User: "Paul Duca"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 05 Nov 2005 04:08:46 AM
I consider ANY kind of funeral vulgar and pagan, and don't plan to
have one.
Paul
.

User: "Shark school missionaries"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 09:03:19 AM
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> suddenly spluttered:

The classical sociologists expected organised religion to
wither on the vine.

You pasted this, I presume you read it and agree with it and know what
the author is on about, so name them - oh! and you still haven't told
us how a lesbian commits sodomy.
------------------------------------------------
Conflict over the exact will/purpose/nature of God cannot ever be
resolved, since there are no facts to go on.
D Silverman FLAHN, SMLAHN
AA #2208
.
User: "Shark school missionaries"

Title: Re: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 09:08:28 AM
Shark school missionaries <yournamehere@martyrdom.org> suddenly
spluttered:

"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> suddenly spluttered:

The classical sociologists expected organised religion to
wither on the vine.


You pasted this, I presume you read it and agree with it and know what
the author is on about, so name them - oh! and you still haven't told
us how a lesbian commits sodomy.

I humbly beg your pardon, I just checked and that was Rob Wade. I just
tend to assume that people with such similar behaviour must be
sock-puppets.
------------------------------------------------
Conflict over the exact will/purpose/nature of God cannot ever be
resolved, since there are no facts to go on.
D Silverman FLAHN, SMLAHN
AA #2208
.


User: "JTEM"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 11:17:03 AM
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote

Why secular people still want Christian funerals

Secular (as in "secular education" or "Secular government) != atheist
Besides, funerals are for the living. If an atheist dies, they certainly
might choose to allow Christian friends/family to hold whatever
kind of funeral that would comfort them.
.
User: "kathryn"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 06:48:21 PM
"JTEM" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:RPCdnesi-8M03fbeRVn-hg@comcast.com...


"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote

Why secular people still want Christian funerals


Secular (as in "secular education" or "Secular government) != atheist

Besides, funerals are for the living. If an atheist dies, they certainly
might choose to allow Christian friends/family to hold whatever
kind of funeral that would comfort them.

I agree with you there, I had thought about instructing my family not to
have any of the religious crap, but I realised that as a dead person Im not
going to know, let alone care. Plus it would make it easier for my
amily - as long as Im cremated I don't really care what they do.
.


User: "Brian Watson"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 10:03:28 AM
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote in message
news:1131079055.374012.68890@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Why secular people still want Christian funerals

Just in case...
--
Brian
"Anyway, if you have been, thanks for listening."
.

User: "thesonoftruth"

Title: Why don't imposters and phonies use verbs? 04 Nov 2005 09:17:21 PM
Example 1:
words of truth wrote:

Why secular people still want Christian funerals



.
User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: Why don't imposters and phonies use verbs? 05 Nov 2005 06:50:42 AM
On 4 Nov 2005 13:17:21 -0800, "thesonoftruth" <thesonoftruth@aol.com>
wrote:

Example 1:
words of truth wrote:

Why secular people still want Christian funerals

But "want" *is* a verb, in this context.
(Albeit transitive...)
What are you on about?
.
User: "Colin Day"

Title: Re: Why don't imposters and phonies use verbs? 05 Nov 2005 03:42:22 PM
Michael Gray wrote:

On 4 Nov 2005 13:17:21 -0800, "thesonoftruth" <thesonoftruth@aol.com>
wrote:


Example 1:
words of truth wrote:

Why secular people still want Christian funerals



But "want" *is* a verb, in this context.
(Albeit transitive...)
What are you on about?

Perhaps thesonoftruth thought that words of truth should have expressed
the title as a question: Why *do* secular people still want Christian
funerals?
Colin Day aa #1500
.
User: "BDK"

Title: Re: Why don't imposters and phonies use verbs? 05 Nov 2005 10:53:49 PM
In article <yp4bf.2507$bU3.447469@twister.southeast.rr.com>, cday3
@sc.rr.com says...

Michael Gray wrote:

On 4 Nov 2005 13:17:21 -0800, "thesonoftruth" <thesonoftruth@aol.com>
wrote:


Example 1:
words of truth wrote:

Why secular people still want Christian funerals



But "want" *is* a verb, in this context.
(Albeit transitive...)
What are you on about?


Perhaps thesonoftruth thought that words of truth should have expressed
the title as a question: Why *do* secular people still want Christian
funerals?

Colin Day aa #1500

I think it's family pressure and they just don't really care about it
all that much. My mother has stated she wants no funeral at all, period.
She has pretty much become an atheist over the last ten years or so.
BDK
.

User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: Why don't imposters and phonies use verbs? 06 Nov 2005 12:36:09 AM
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 15:42:22 GMT, Colin Day <cday3@sc.rr.com> wrote:

Michael Gray wrote:

On 4 Nov 2005 13:17:21 -0800, "thesonoftruth" <thesonoftruth@aol.com>
wrote:


Example 1:
words of truth wrote:

Why secular people still want Christian funerals



But "want" *is* a verb, in this context.
(Albeit transitive...)
What are you on about?


Perhaps thesonoftruth thought that words of truth should have expressed
the title as a question: Why *do* secular people still want Christian
funerals?

Colin Day aa #1500

I'm not sure that I uinderstand.
The title *was* a question:
"Why don't imposters and phonies use verbs?"
and the example provided shed no light on anything.
It's still a verb, and turds of ruth is still a moron.
.



User: ""

Title: Re: Why don't imposters and phonies use verbs? 04 Nov 2005 09:46:55 PM
thesonoftruth wrote:


Why don't imposters and phonies use verbs?

=========
Because of the likely reverberations.
.


User: "Josef Balluch"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 03:37:03 PM
In a message sent 'round the world, words of truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:

Why secular people still want Christian funerals

Church Times of London

August 5, 2005

Alan Billings


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1462898/posts

....

For example, if we are so secular, why does the religious funeral
persist? Not just most, but the overwhelming majority, of funerals are
religious.

The CIA Factbook places the UK at 71.6% Christian. ( 2001 )
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html#People
....
Regards,
Josef
A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking.
-- Martin H. Fischer
.
User: "Bill"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 05 Nov 2005 01:35:07 AM
Why do most secularists today choose cremation?
"Josef Balluch" <josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote in message
news:MPG.1dd54a26c4f7cd86989bda@news1.on.sympatico.ca...


In a message sent 'round the world, words of truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:


Why secular people still want Christian funerals

Church Times of London

August 5, 2005

Alan Billings


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1462898/posts



...


For example, if we are so secular, why does the religious funeral
persist? Not just most, but the overwhelming majority, of funerals are
religious.



The CIA Factbook places the UK at 71.6% Christian. ( 2001 )

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html#People


...



Regards,

Josef



A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking.

-- Martin H. Fischer




.
User: "Josef Balluch"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 05 Nov 2005 03:20:09 AM
In a message sent 'round the world, Bill poured fuel on the fire with
the following:

Why do most secularists today choose cremation?

- a less expensive casket
- no purchase and maintenance of a grave site and tombstone
- the remains (ashes) can be placed in a location of choice
- quick destruction by heat is preferred by some, rather than slow
decomposition
- in some locations grave sites may be in short supply
Regards,
Josef
The meaning of life is that it stops.
-- Franz Kafka
.



User: "*nemo*"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 09:49:55 AM
In article <1131079055.374012.68890@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote:

Why secular people still want Christian funerals

Not me, Sparky. When my mother died a couple of years ago, we held our
own memorial service in our home, far way from any church, funeral
director or anyone remotely interested in profiting from the death of an
atheist.
You muck-raking, heartless, self-absorbed pinhead, I suggest you FOAD.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.
User: "Therion Ware"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 10:13:35 AM
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 09:49:55 GMT in alt.atheism, *nemo* (*nemo*
<nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism

In article <1131079055.374012.68890@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote:

Why secular people still want Christian funerals


Not me, Sparky. When my mother died a couple of years ago, we held our
own memorial service in our home, far way from any church, funeral
director or anyone remotely interested in profiting from the death of an
atheist.

You muck-raking, heartless, self-absorbed pinhead, I suggest you FOAD.

.... having first arranged a secular and green funeral....
.


User: "Les Hellawell"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 03:23:08 PM
On 3 Nov 2005 20:37:35 -0800, "words of truth"
<wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote:

Why secular people still want Christian funerals



Church Times of London

August 5, 2005

Alan Billings


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1462898/posts



APART FROM the horseracing tipster on the BBC's Today programme, no
one has a worse record for predictions than the sociologist of
religion. The classical sociologists expected organised religion to
wither on the vine. Religion might be the heart of a heartless world
and the opiate of the people, but, once the people were liberated and
prosperous, there would be no need for supernatural consolations.

As societies modernised, and human life was organised in an
increasingly rational manner, superstition (for which read religion)
would disappear. In global terms, none predicted the pentecostal and
charismatic surge within Christianity. None foresaw the Islamic
revival. All would find the contemporary religious culture of the
United Sates inexplicable.

The sociology of religion in this country is likely to be an even more
unreliable guide, since it is incorrigibly Europe-centred, and, as a
result, still largely in the grip of those earlier theories of
secularisation. This seems to make it incurious about significant
pieces of evidence that fly in the face of secular assumptions.

For example, if we are so secular, why does the religious funeral
persist? Not just most, but the overwhelming majority, of funerals are
religious. This seems to me an important question, and one that clergy
need to think hard about as well, if we are to continue to offer
effective ministry to the bereaved.

FOR THE PAST two years, I have been thinking around this question. As I
have visited people in my Kendal parish to arrange the funeral of loved
ones, I have tried to tease out what it is that they think a religious
funeral offers, as opposed to a secular one.

Of course, it is open for someone to say that when someone dies there
is little choice. It is the vicar or nobody. Everything happens so
swiftly, and you are emotionally so fragile, that there simply isn't
time to look around for a secular alternative.

There is some truth in this, though not much. It is true that people
would have to be very quick off the mark in Kendal to avoid a religious
funeral, since there are such good working relationships between
funeral directors and clergy that clergy can be visiting the bereaved
within hours of a death being notified. These days, though, almost
everyone lives into advanced old age; we have many years in which to
think about our obsequies, and to make our wishes known.

Also, in our consumerist society, I am sure that if the demand for
secular funerals were there, a national alternative to the religious
funeral would by now have emerged. So why does the religious funeral
persist?

There is space to suggest two reasons. This is how I make sense of what
people say - though interpretation is not always easy.

THE FIRST reason has to do with the contrast between a religious and a
secular funeral. This became clear to me earlier this year when I was
asked to officiate at the funeral of someone I had known for 30 years.
I was surprised to be asked, because the friend was an atheist, and his
partner wanted a secular funeral. Not without difficulty, though out of
friendship, I agreed.

For a Christian priest, however, this was like trying to save someone
from drowning with your arms and legs tied together. Much of what I
would want to say, I could not say. Much of what I would want to do -
such as pray and commend my friend to God - I had to refrain from
doing.

The occasion consisted of favourite pieces of music and short eulogies
by friends, all with an amusing story or two. (And it was all done
well.) It was a "celebration" of a life. And that, of course, gives
the clue. The secular funeral can look only in one direction -
backwards, to a life now lived.

It is literally hopeless, for hope is about the future, and the one
thing the non-believer knows is that there is no future beyond physical
death; for without God there could be no future beyond physical death.
Many people may not be convinced believers, but they want to keep the
door of hope at least ajar. The secular funeral slams it shut.

This leads into a second reason why the religious funeral persists. The
secular funeral essentially makes a utilitarian evaluation of the life
lived, based on the contribution the deceased has made - as partner,
parent, friend, citizen. This works for many funerals, but by no means
all. Some of these are obvious: I think immediately of the funerals of
a suicide; a severely mentally handicapped baby; a young man who
destroyed his life and that of others in a drink-induced car crash; a
young woman who gave her short life to drugs.

With other funerals, we pick our way with care: there may not be a
whole skeleton in the cupboard, but we are made aware of a few bones.
It then becomes hard or forced to find convincing reasons to be wholly
celebratory.

But, in the church funeral, the evaluation of a life is religious, not
utilitarian: whatever we have done in and with our lives, Christ died
for us. This allows us to express a range of emotions: sorrow and
sadness, guilt and regret, despair and anger, as well as thankfulness
and pride. All can be accommodated. We don't even have to labour any
point, since the liturgy takes care of it. And, at the key moment, the
rite is unambiguous: we commend the dead to God.

We do live in a time of no religion - a time when many people do not
want regular contact with organised religion. This makes those moments
when they do of considerable significance. We need to keep puzzling out
why that is, so that we can minister more effectively. Why do people
ask for a religious funeral? Because it allows us to say our farewells
with integrity, and does not close the door on hope.



Canon Dr Alan Billings is the Vicar of St George's, Kendal, and St
John's, Grayrigg, and the author of Secular Lives, Sacred Hearts: The
role of the Church in a time of no religion (SPCK, 2004).

A very thoughtful piece of work from which US fundies could learn
much. I obviously disagreed with some of the things he said but the
way he said it was not hostile, not scathing of people who do not
share his beliefs, not nasty or full of lies, but a genuine attempt at
understanding and much tolerance. It was inclusive not exclusive.
I think I could like this guy. I certainly could not say it of many
who post here.
Contrast this approach with that of the supposed aid worker who
turned away somebody with an anti-religious symbol on their car.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
.

User: "Joe Pucillo"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 05:02:28 AM
Wasn't it words of truth who said...

Why secular people still want Christian funerals

Last chance...
JP
.
User: "kevin hollingsworth"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 06:56:33 AM
I'm a atheist and I don't want a pervy priest saying any last rites over me!
"Joe Pucillo" <newsPM@pucillo.net.xx> wrote in message
news:MPG.1dd4b535abc734dd98989c@news.west.earthlink.net...

Wasn't it words of truth who said...

Why secular people still want Christian funerals


Last chance...



JP

.
User: "Jesus H Christ"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 01:28:00 PM
"kevin hollingsworth" <kevin.h0llingsworth@ntlworld.com> wrote in
news:BCDaf.3770$Gy5.1358@newsfe3-win.ntli.net:

I'm a atheist and I don't want a pervy priest saying any last rites
over me!

Look, that pervy priest just might be about to leave the last living human
cells inside your cooling corpse, so don't knock it!
Besides, you'll be dead. Like you're going to say or do anything about
it. Just the way they like it. Silent and helpless ;-)
jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesus!
.


User: "Frank F. Matthews"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 05:02:36 PM
Joe Pucillo wrote:

Wasn't it words of truth who said...

Why secular people still want Christian funerals



Last chance...



JP

It's just that they are skilled at ceremonials. And they control good
venues.
.

User: "IKnowMoreThanYou"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 09:07:14 PM
Joe Pucillo wrote:

Wasn't it words of truth who said...

Why secular people still want Christian funerals


Last chance...



JP

By the funeral it's too late.
.


User: "Uncle Vic"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 04:13:10 PM
on 03 Nov 2005 in alt.atheism, dear sweet words of truth
(wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
Is Raytard posting from Google now?
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
----
"The world is only 5-6 thousand years old does not mean the planet
earth is only 5-6 thousand years old. There have been many worlds
created and destroyed on this planet. The creation of the planet is
described in Genesis 1. The creation of the world is described in
Genesis 2. Two different kind of creations." --Eric Brze
.

User: "Ian"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 10:42:14 AM
words of truth wrote:

Why secular people still want Christian funerals

Cowardice, hedge your bets. You name it.
.
User: "Ash"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 05 Nov 2005 12:26:54 AM
Ian wrote:

words of truth wrote:

Why secular people still want Christian funerals



Cowardice, hedge your bets. You name it.

non secular relatives
.


User: "Gregory Gadow"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 06:26:13 PM
words of truth wrote:

Why secular people still want Christian funerals

In my experience as a celebrant, the reasons are the same as why many
secular people get religious weddings: they are either unaware of an
alternative, or they are unable to find someone willing and able to conduct
a non-religious ceremony. This is especially true with funerals, as very
few celebrants offer that service.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"[W]e have never held that moral disapproval, without any other asserted
state interest, is a sufficient rationale under the Equal Protection
Clause to justify a law that discriminates among groups of persons."
- Sandra Day O`Conner, _Lawrence v Texas_
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=000&invol=02-102
.

User: "IKnowMoreThanYou"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 09:16:33 PM
words of truth wrote:

Why secular people still want Christian funerals

The more appropriate topic should be why anyone, religious or not, has
to buy into and accept the completely unnecessary accoutrements and
expense of funerals orchestrated by the modern robber baron morticians
and funeral directors!
<snip>
.

User: "Terry Cross"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 04 Nov 2005 11:31:55 PM
words of truth wrote:

Why secular people still want Christian funerals

There is no such thing as a "secular person." All people are
spiritual, whether they know it or not.
Even if they thing they are made of slime mold and mud like
Evolutionists, they are stil spritual.
TCross
.
User: "Enkidu the Atheist"

Title: Re: Why Secular People Still Want Christian Funerals? 05 Nov 2005 02:52:02 AM
"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1131147115.329233.47880
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

words of truth wrote:

Why secular people still want Christian funerals


There is no such thing as a "secular person." All people are
spiritual, whether they know it or not.

Even if they thing they are made of slime mold and mud like
Evolutionists, they are stil spritual.

*****. There is no 'spirit', only matter and energy in action.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
"I give money for church organs in the hope the organ music will distract
the congregation's attention from the rest of the service."
-- Andrew Carnegie (1835-1919)
.



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