| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Gospel" |
| Date: |
22 Oct 2004 01:05:38 PM |
| Object: |
Why should I pray? By Dr. Herbert Samworth |
This is an excellent question. There are times when it appears that our
prayers are not heard, or we are too discouraged to pray, or we think
that our prayers really don't make any difference. After all, we reason
that God is sovereign and His plan is unchangeable, so what difference
does it make whether we pray or not?
The above reasoning is an example of drawing wrong conclusions from
correct assumptions. It is a fact that God is sovereign, He is working
out His plan, and that all will come to the end that God has ordained.
However, these truths give us all the more reason to pray than not pray.
Why is this so? It is because God has ordained prayer as one of the
means by which His perfect will is accomplished.
There is a remarkable verse found in James 5:16 concerning the
importance and efficacy of true prayer. The verse is located between the
admonition to pray for the sick and the example of Elijah as a model of
persevering prayer. At the end of James 5:16 we read these words, "The
effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (KJV). In
these ten words, there is much to be learned. These words can be
translated differently to emphasize the key thought of the verse, "The
supplication of a righteous man availeth much in its working."
First, it is important to understand what James means by prayer in this
context. It is the word that is used exclusively for petition or
request. The emphasis lies on the need of the person to receive God's
blessing.
Second, we have the promise of God that prayer is effective. James
states without equivocation that it avails much. James does not define
exactly the meaning of this word but in the context, it has application
to God's perfect will. The goal of the Christian should be to glorify
God and God is glorified when His will is accomplished. The application
of what God's will is for the individual person may vary, but true
prayer advances God's glory and brings great blessing to man.
Third, prayer is powerful. There is something dynamic in prayer. No
prayer ever falls to the ground without accomplishing something. The
reason for this is that God is all-powerful. Frequently, the effect of
prayer is felt in the person praying as much as in the meeting of the
request itself.
Fourth, prayer should serve as a wake-up call to us. Note that James
states that it is the prayer of a righteous person that avails much in
its working. This should cause us to reflect on our relationship to the
Lord. We need to be Christians who are walking in fellowship with Him.
In addition, it is fervent prayer that produces much. Often we find that
our prayers are heartless and without passion. True prayer occurs when
we are convinced that it is only God Who can supply us with what we need.
So why do we need to pray? It is our response to God's gracious
invitation to partner with Him to carry out His great purposes. Note
what Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 6:1, "We are workers together with
Him." God calls us into partnership in doing His will. One manner by
which we can enter that partnership is through prayer.
© Sola Scriptura
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| User: "Witziges Rätsel" |
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| Title: Re: Why should I pray? By Dr. Herbert Samworth |
22 Oct 2004 04:16:10 PM |
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When you pray you're actually talking to
yourself. There are no gods.
.
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| User: "I Report, You Decide" |
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| Title: Re: Why should I pray? By Dr. Herbert Samworth |
22 Oct 2004 08:00:41 PM |
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Exactly! There are no gods, only God.
--
The Best in Message Board Discussions
http://www.comicboards.org/religion
"Witziges Rätsel" <zer@roer.com> wrote in message
news:clbu1l$k2s$1@news.chatlink.com...
When you pray you're actually talking to
yourself. There are no gods.
.
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| User: "Sunny" |
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| Title: Re: Why should I pray? By Dr. Herbert Samworth |
22 Oct 2004 09:25:04 PM |
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"I Report, You Decide" <tle_mgr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3tadnXFND-akMOTcRVn-tQ@comcast.com...
Exactly! There are no gods, only God.
1. How did you find out about your deity?
__ Newspaper
__ Letter Box drop
__ Bible
__ Torah
__ Television
__ Book of Mormon
__ Divine Inspiration
__ Dead Sea Scrolls
__ My Parents
__ Government Circular
__ Near Death Experience
__ Near Life Experience
__ National Public Radio
__ Tabloid
__ Burning Shrubbery
__ Other (specify): _____________
2. Which model deity did you acquire?
__ Yahweh
__ Father, Son & Holy Ghost [Trinity Pak]
__ Jehovah
__ Jesus
__ Krishna
__ Zeus and entourage [Olympus Pak]
__ Odin and entourage [Valhalla Pak]
__ Allah
__ Satan
__ Gaia/Mother Earth/Mother Nature
__ Pick from alternate list :
Aphrodite, Ares, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Babaluaye, Bacchus,
Baldur, Bast, Bellona, Brahma, Brigid, Ceres, Cupid, Cerridwen,
Demeter, Diana, Dione, Dionysus, Eris, Eos, Eleggua, Eshu, Ereshkigal,
Frigga, Frey, Freya, Gaea, Hades, Hebe, Hera, Helios, Hel, Hephaestus,
Hermes, Hestia, Horus, Ibeji, Ifa, Inanna, Indra, Ishana, Ishtar,
Isis, Janus, Juno, Jehovah, Jove, Jupiter, Krishna Kronos, Korravai,
Loki, Lugh, Manitou, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Mercurius, Morrigan,
Nahuiquiahuitl, Nanahuatzin, Nephthys, Neptune, Obatala, Odin, Ogun,
Oshosi, Oshun, Osiris, Oya, Orunmila, Olokun, Olodumare, Pluto,
Persephone, Poseidon, Proserpina, Quetzalcoatl, Ra, Rhea, Saturn, Set,
Selene, Shango, Tammuz, Thor, Tir, Tiw, Uranus, Venus, Vesta, Vishnu,
Vesta, Vulcan, Wotan, Yahweh, Yemaya, Zeus, Oh, and Lint® the Laundry God...
__ None of the above, I was taken in by a false god
3. Did your Diety come to you undamaged, with all parts in good
working order and with no obvious breakage or missing attributes?
__ Yes __ No
If no, please describe the problems you initially encountered here.
Please indicate all that apply:
__ Not eternal
__ Not omniscient
__ Not omnipotent
__ Not infinite (incapable of being all things to all creations)
__ Permits sex outside of marriage
__ Prohibits sex outside of marriage
__ Makes mistakes
__ Never makes mistakes
__ Makes or permits bad things to happen to good people
__ Looks after life other than that on Earth
__ When beseeched, doesn't stay beseeched
__ Requires burnt offerings
__ Requires virgin sacrifices
__ Doesn't require virgin sacrifices
4. What factors were relevant in your decision to acquire a deity?
Please check all that apply.
__ Indoctrinated by parents
__ Needed a reason to live
__ Indoctrinated by society
__ Needed focus in whom to despise
__ Imaginary friend grew up
__ Heard that it was free
__ Wanted to know Jesus in the Biblical sense
__ Hate to think for myself
__ Wanted to meet girls/boys
__ Fear of death
__ Wanted to tee off parents
__ Needed a day away from work
__ Desperate need for certainty
__ Like Organ Music
__ Need to feel Morally Superior
__ Scatological material was falling out of the sky
__ My shrubbery caught fire and told me to do it.
5. Have you ever worshiped a deity before? If so,
Please check all that apply.
__ Cthulhu
__ Baal
__ The Almighty Dollar
__ Left Wing Liberalism
__ The Radical Right
__ Ra
__ Beelzebub
__ The Great Spirit
__ The Great Pumpkin
__ The Sun
__ The Moon
__ A burning shrubbery
__ Other: ________________
6. Are you currently using any other source of inspiration
in addition to a Deity? Please check all that apply.
__ Tarot
__ Lottery
__ Astrology
__ Television
__ Fortune cookies
__ Psychic Friends Network
__ Dianetics
__ Palmistry
__ Self-help books
__ Sex, Drugs, Rock and Roll
__ Biorhythms
__ Alcohol
__ Tea Leaves
__ EST
__ Mantras
__ Crystals
__ Human Sacrifice
__ Pyramids
__ Wandering around a desert
__ Insurance policies
__ Burning Shrubbery
__ Other:_____________________
__ None
7. A Deity employs a limited degree of Divine Intervention
to preserve the balanced level of felt presence and blind faith.
Which would you prefer (circle one)?
a. More Divine Intervention
b. Less Divine Intervention
c. Current level of Divine Intervention is just right
d. Don't know...what's Divine Intervention?
8. A Deity also attempts to maintain a balanced level of disasters
and miracles. Please rate on a scale of 1 - 5
his handling of the following (1=3 unsatisfactory, 3=5 excellent):
a. Disasters:
flood 1 2 3 4 5
famine 1 2 3 4 5
earthquake 1 2 3 4 5
war 1 2 3 4 5
pestilence 1 2 3 4 5
plague 1 2 3 4 5
suicide bombing 1 2 3 4 5
b. Miracles:
rescues 1 2 3 4 5
spontaneous remissions 1 2 3 4 5
stars hovering over jerkwater towns 1 2 3 4 5
crying statues 1 2 3 4 5
water changing to wine 1 2 3 4 5
walking on water 1 2 3 4 5
Saddam Hussein still alive 1 2 3 4 5
27 virgins for each terrorist 1 2 3 4 5
9. Do you have any additional comments or suggestions
for improving the quality of your Deity services?
(Attach an additional sheet if necessary):
.
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| User: "I Report, You Decide" |
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| Title: Re: Why should I pray? By Dr. Herbert Samworth |
22 Oct 2004 10:16:13 PM |
|
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At least that was moderately original.
--
The Best in Message Board Discussions
http://www.comicboards.org/religion
"Sunny" <wombathouse@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:4ijed.35925$5O5.21817@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"I Report, You Decide" <tle_mgr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3tadnXFND-akMOTcRVn-tQ@comcast.com...
Exactly! There are no gods, only God.
1. How did you find out about your deity?
__ Newspaper
__ Letter Box drop
__ Bible
__ Torah
__ Television
__ Book of Mormon
__ Divine Inspiration
__ Dead Sea Scrolls
__ My Parents
__ Government Circular
__ Near Death Experience
__ Near Life Experience
__ National Public Radio
__ Tabloid
__ Burning Shrubbery
__ Other (specify): _____________
2. Which model deity did you acquire?
__ Yahweh
__ Father, Son & Holy Ghost [Trinity Pak]
__ Jehovah
__ Jesus
__ Krishna
__ Zeus and entourage [Olympus Pak]
__ Odin and entourage [Valhalla Pak]
__ Allah
__ Satan
__ Gaia/Mother Earth/Mother Nature
__ Pick from alternate list :
Aphrodite, Ares, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Babaluaye, Bacchus,
Baldur, Bast, Bellona, Brahma, Brigid, Ceres, Cupid, Cerridwen,
Demeter, Diana, Dione, Dionysus, Eris, Eos, Eleggua, Eshu, Ereshkigal,
Frigga, Frey, Freya, Gaea, Hades, Hebe, Hera, Helios, Hel, Hephaestus,
Hermes, Hestia, Horus, Ibeji, Ifa, Inanna, Indra, Ishana, Ishtar,
Isis, Janus, Juno, Jehovah, Jove, Jupiter, Krishna Kronos, Korravai,
Loki, Lugh, Manitou, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Mercurius, Morrigan,
Nahuiquiahuitl, Nanahuatzin, Nephthys, Neptune, Obatala, Odin, Ogun,
Oshosi, Oshun, Osiris, Oya, Orunmila, Olokun, Olodumare, Pluto,
Persephone, Poseidon, Proserpina, Quetzalcoatl, Ra, Rhea, Saturn, Set,
Selene, Shango, Tammuz, Thor, Tir, Tiw, Uranus, Venus, Vesta, Vishnu,
Vesta, Vulcan, Wotan, Yahweh, Yemaya, Zeus, Oh, and Lint® the Laundry
God...
__ None of the above, I was taken in by a false god
3. Did your Diety come to you undamaged, with all parts in good
working order and with no obvious breakage or missing attributes?
__ Yes __ No
If no, please describe the problems you initially encountered here.
Please indicate all that apply:
__ Not eternal
__ Not omniscient
__ Not omnipotent
__ Not infinite (incapable of being all things to all creations)
__ Permits sex outside of marriage
__ Prohibits sex outside of marriage
__ Makes mistakes
__ Never makes mistakes
__ Makes or permits bad things to happen to good people
__ Looks after life other than that on Earth
__ When beseeched, doesn't stay beseeched
__ Requires burnt offerings
__ Requires virgin sacrifices
__ Doesn't require virgin sacrifices
4. What factors were relevant in your decision to acquire a deity?
Please check all that apply.
__ Indoctrinated by parents
__ Needed a reason to live
__ Indoctrinated by society
__ Needed focus in whom to despise
__ Imaginary friend grew up
__ Heard that it was free
__ Wanted to know Jesus in the Biblical sense
__ Hate to think for myself
__ Wanted to meet girls/boys
__ Fear of death
__ Wanted to tee off parents
__ Needed a day away from work
__ Desperate need for certainty
__ Like Organ Music
__ Need to feel Morally Superior
__ Scatological material was falling out of the sky
__ My shrubbery caught fire and told me to do it.
5. Have you ever worshiped a deity before? If so,
Please check all that apply.
__ Cthulhu
__ Baal
__ The Almighty Dollar
__ Left Wing Liberalism
__ The Radical Right
__ Ra
__ Beelzebub
__ The Great Spirit
__ The Great Pumpkin
__ The Sun
__ The Moon
__ A burning shrubbery
__ Other: ________________
6. Are you currently using any other source of inspiration
in addition to a Deity? Please check all that apply.
__ Tarot
__ Lottery
__ Astrology
__ Television
__ Fortune cookies
__ Psychic Friends Network
__ Dianetics
__ Palmistry
__ Self-help books
__ Sex, Drugs, Rock and Roll
__ Biorhythms
__ Alcohol
__ Tea Leaves
__ EST
__ Mantras
__ Crystals
__ Human Sacrifice
__ Pyramids
__ Wandering around a desert
__ Insurance policies
__ Burning Shrubbery
__ Other:_____________________
__ None
7. A Deity employs a limited degree of Divine Intervention
to preserve the balanced level of felt presence and blind faith.
Which would you prefer (circle one)?
a. More Divine Intervention
b. Less Divine Intervention
c. Current level of Divine Intervention is just right
d. Don't know...what's Divine Intervention?
8. A Deity also attempts to maintain a balanced level of disasters
and miracles. Please rate on a scale of 1 - 5
his handling of the following (1=3 unsatisfactory, 3=5 excellent):
a. Disasters:
flood 1 2 3 4 5
famine 1 2 3 4 5
earthquake 1 2 3 4 5
war 1 2 3 4 5
pestilence 1 2 3 4 5
plague 1 2 3 4 5
suicide bombing 1 2 3 4 5
b. Miracles:
rescues 1 2 3 4 5
spontaneous remissions 1 2 3 4 5
stars hovering over jerkwater towns 1 2 3 4 5
crying statues 1 2 3 4 5
water changing to wine 1 2 3 4 5
walking on water 1 2 3 4 5
Saddam Hussein still alive 1 2 3 4 5
27 virgins for each terrorist 1 2 3 4 5
9. Do you have any additional comments or suggestions
for improving the quality of your Deity services?
(Attach an additional sheet if necessary):
.
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| User: "Rhyanon" |
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| Title: Re: Why should I pray? By Dr. Herbert Samworth |
23 Oct 2004 09:28:50 AM |
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More original than your tired gawd *****.
"I Report, You Decide" <tle_mgr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:zLudnXcGf8tjUeTcRVn-uw@comcast.com...
At least that was moderately original.
--
The Best in Message Board Discussions
http://www.comicboards.org/religion
"Sunny" <wombathouse@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:4ijed.35925$5O5.21817@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"I Report, You Decide" <tle_mgr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3tadnXFND-akMOTcRVn-tQ@comcast.com...
Exactly! There are no gods, only God.
1. How did you find out about your deity?
__ Newspaper
__ Letter Box drop
__ Bible
__ Torah
__ Television
__ Book of Mormon
__ Divine Inspiration
__ Dead Sea Scrolls
__ My Parents
__ Government Circular
__ Near Death Experience
__ Near Life Experience
__ National Public Radio
__ Tabloid
__ Burning Shrubbery
__ Other (specify): _____________
2. Which model deity did you acquire?
__ Yahweh
__ Father, Son & Holy Ghost [Trinity Pak]
__ Jehovah
__ Jesus
__ Krishna
__ Zeus and entourage [Olympus Pak]
__ Odin and entourage [Valhalla Pak]
__ Allah
__ Satan
__ Gaia/Mother Earth/Mother Nature
__ Pick from alternate list :
Aphrodite, Ares, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Babaluaye, Bacchus,
Baldur, Bast, Bellona, Brahma, Brigid, Ceres, Cupid, Cerridwen,
Demeter, Diana, Dione, Dionysus, Eris, Eos, Eleggua, Eshu, Ereshkigal,
Frigga, Frey, Freya, Gaea, Hades, Hebe, Hera, Helios, Hel, Hephaestus,
Hermes, Hestia, Horus, Ibeji, Ifa, Inanna, Indra, Ishana, Ishtar,
Isis, Janus, Juno, Jehovah, Jove, Jupiter, Krishna Kronos, Korravai,
Loki, Lugh, Manitou, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Mercurius, Morrigan,
Nahuiquiahuitl, Nanahuatzin, Nephthys, Neptune, Obatala, Odin, Ogun,
Oshosi, Oshun, Osiris, Oya, Orunmila, Olokun, Olodumare, Pluto,
Persephone, Poseidon, Proserpina, Quetzalcoatl, Ra, Rhea, Saturn, Set,
Selene, Shango, Tammuz, Thor, Tir, Tiw, Uranus, Venus, Vesta, Vishnu,
Vesta, Vulcan, Wotan, Yahweh, Yemaya, Zeus, Oh, and Lint® the Laundry
God...
__ None of the above, I was taken in by a false god
3. Did your Diety come to you undamaged, with all parts in good
working order and with no obvious breakage or missing attributes?
__ Yes __ No
If no, please describe the problems you initially encountered here.
Please indicate all that apply:
__ Not eternal
__ Not omniscient
__ Not omnipotent
__ Not infinite (incapable of being all things to all creations)
__ Permits sex outside of marriage
__ Prohibits sex outside of marriage
__ Makes mistakes
__ Never makes mistakes
__ Makes or permits bad things to happen to good people
__ Looks after life other than that on Earth
__ When beseeched, doesn't stay beseeched
__ Requires burnt offerings
__ Requires virgin sacrifices
__ Doesn't require virgin sacrifices
4. What factors were relevant in your decision to acquire a deity?
Please check all that apply.
__ Indoctrinated by parents
__ Needed a reason to live
__ Indoctrinated by society
__ Needed focus in whom to despise
__ Imaginary friend grew up
__ Heard that it was free
__ Wanted to know Jesus in the Biblical sense
__ Hate to think for myself
__ Wanted to meet girls/boys
__ Fear of death
__ Wanted to tee off parents
__ Needed a day away from work
__ Desperate need for certainty
__ Like Organ Music
__ Need to feel Morally Superior
__ Scatological material was falling out of the sky
__ My shrubbery caught fire and told me to do it.
5. Have you ever worshiped a deity before? If so,
Please check all that apply.
__ Cthulhu
__ Baal
__ The Almighty Dollar
__ Left Wing Liberalism
__ The Radical Right
__ Ra
__ Beelzebub
__ The Great Spirit
__ The Great Pumpkin
__ The Sun
__ The Moon
__ A burning shrubbery
__ Other: ________________
6. Are you currently using any other source of inspiration
in addition to a Deity? Please check all that apply.
__ Tarot
__ Lottery
__ Astrology
__ Television
__ Fortune cookies
__ Psychic Friends Network
__ Dianetics
__ Palmistry
__ Self-help books
__ Sex, Drugs, Rock and Roll
__ Biorhythms
__ Alcohol
__ Tea Leaves
__ EST
__ Mantras
__ Crystals
__ Human Sacrifice
__ Pyramids
__ Wandering around a desert
__ Insurance policies
__ Burning Shrubbery
__ Other:_____________________
__ None
7. A Deity employs a limited degree of Divine Intervention
to preserve the balanced level of felt presence and blind faith.
Which would you prefer (circle one)?
a. More Divine Intervention
b. Less Divine Intervention
c. Current level of Divine Intervention is just right
d. Don't know...what's Divine Intervention?
8. A Deity also attempts to maintain a balanced level of disasters
and miracles. Please rate on a scale of 1 - 5
his handling of the following (1=3 unsatisfactory, 3=5 excellent):
a. Disasters:
flood 1 2 3 4 5
famine 1 2 3 4 5
earthquake 1 2 3 4 5
war 1 2 3 4 5
pestilence 1 2 3 4 5
plague 1 2 3 4 5
suicide bombing 1 2 3 4 5
b. Miracles:
rescues 1 2 3 4 5
spontaneous remissions 1 2 3 4 5
stars hovering over jerkwater towns 1 2 3 4 5
crying statues 1 2 3 4 5
water changing to wine 1 2 3 4 5
walking on water 1 2 3 4 5
Saddam Hussein still alive 1 2 3 4 5
27 virgins for each terrorist 1 2 3 4 5
9. Do you have any additional comments or suggestions
for improving the quality of your Deity services?
(Attach an additional sheet if necessary):
.
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| User: "Rhyanon" |
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| Title: Re: Why should I pray? By Dr. Herbert Samworth |
23 Oct 2004 09:27:26 AM |
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What a fuckwit.
--
"Thou shalt not kill -- unless they happen to worship a different invisible
being than you."
~George Carlin~
"I Report, You Decide" <tle_mgr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3tadnXFND-akMOTcRVn-tQ@comcast.com...
Exactly! There are no gods, only God.
--
The Best in Message Board Discussions
http://www.comicboards.org/religion
"Witziges Rätsel" <zer@roer.com> wrote in message
news:clbu1l$k2s$1@news.chatlink.com...
When you pray you're actually talking to
yourself. There are no gods.
.
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| User: "jdaves" |
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| Title: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
13 Dec 2004 02:38:02 PM |
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Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
One of World's Leading Atheists Now Believes in God, More or Less,
Based on Scientific Evidence
The Associated Press
Dec. 9, 2004 - A British philosophy professor who has been a leading
champion of atheism for more than a half-century has changed his mind.
He now believes in God more or less based on scientific evidence, and
says so on a video released Thursday.
At age 81, after decades of insisting belief is a mistake, Antony Flew
has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have
created the universe. A super-intelligence is the only good
explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew
said in a telephone interview from England.
Flew said he's best labeled a deist like Thomas Jefferson, whose God
was not actively involved in people's lives.
"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian
and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as
omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said. "It
could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a
purpose, I suppose."
Flew first made his mark with the 1950 article "Theology and
Falsification," based on a paper for the Socratic Club, a weekly
Oxford religious forum led by writer and Christian thinker C.S. Lewis.
Over the years, Flew proclaimed the lack of evidence for God while
teaching at Oxford, Aberdeen, Keele, and Reading universities in
Britain, in visits to numerous U.S. and Canadian campuses and in
books, articles, lectures and debates.
There was no one moment of change but a gradual conclusion over recent
months for Flew, a spry man who still does not believe in an
afterlife.
Yet biologists' investigation of DNA "has shown, by the almost
unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to
produce (life), that intelligence must have been involved," Flew says
in the new video, "Has Science Discovered God?"
The video draws from a New York discussion last May organized by
author Roy Abraham Varghese's Institute for Metascientific Research in
Garland, Texas. Participants were Flew; Varghese; Israeli physicist
Gerald Schroeder, an Orthodox Jew; and Roman Catholic philosopher John
Haldane of Scotland's University of St. Andrews.
The first hint of Flew's turn was a letter to the August-September
issue of Britain's Philosophy Now magazine. "It has become
inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a
naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing
organism," he wrote.
The letter commended arguments in Schroeder's "The Hidden Face of God"
and "The Wonder of the World" by Varghese, an Eastern Rite Catholic
layman.
This week, Flew finished writing the first formal account of his new
outlook for the introduction to a new edition of his "God and
Philosophy," scheduled for release next year by Prometheus Press.
Prometheus specializes in skeptical thought, but if his belief upsets
people, well "that's too bad," Flew said. "My whole life has been
guided by the principle of Plato's Socrates: Follow the evidence,
wherever it leads."
Last week, Richard Carrier, a writer and Columbia University graduate
student, posted new material based on correspondence with Flew on the
atheistic www.infidels.org Web page. Carrier assured atheists that
Flew accepts only a "minimal God" and believes in no afterlife.
Flew's "name and stature are big. Whenever you hear people talk about
atheists, Flew always comes up," Carrier said. Still, when it comes to
Flew's reversal, "apart from curiosity, I don't think it's like a big
deal."
Flew told The Associated Press his current ideas have some similarity
with American "intelligent design" theorists, who see evidence for a
guiding force in the construction of the universe. He accepts
Darwinian evolution but doubts it can explain the ultimate origins of
life.
A Methodist minister's son, Flew became an atheist at 15.
Early in his career, he argued that no conceivable events could
constitute proof against God for believers, so skeptics were right to
wonder whether the concept of God meant anything at all.
Another landmark was his 1984 "The Presumption of Atheism," playing
off the presumption of innocence in criminal law. Flew said the debate
over God must begin by presuming atheism, putting the burden of proof
on those arguing that God exists.
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| User: "Chuck" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
25 Dec 2004 08:39:27 PM |
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Fascinating.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
13 Dec 2004 07:41:35 PM |
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In our last episode <gcvrr0t7ht5vs4qgfimh5ftukessuoka6m@4ax.com>, jdaves
lept out of the bushes shouting:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
Famous where? Even most of the British regulars on alt.atheism had to go
to Google to figure out who the hell he was...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
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"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
13 Dec 2004 08:05:27 PM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in
news:DMadnf1gjrmT2SPcRVn-qw@megapath.net:
In our last episode <gcvrr0t7ht5vs4qgfimh5ftukessuoka6m@4ax.com>,
jdaves
lept out of the bushes shouting:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
Famous where? Even most of the British regulars on alt.atheism had to
go
to Google to figure out who the hell he was...
And what of it anyway? Appeals to authority are worthless. It makes no
difference if the authority is a Christian, an atheist, or a convert.
Evidence in support of a position is all tha matters, and none in support
of the theist position has been offered.
--
Enkidu
"Yee-Ha" is not a foreign policy.
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| User: "Dr Javier Jimenez" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
14 Dec 2004 03:50:56 PM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in
news:DMadnf1gjrmT2SPcRVn-qw@megapath.net:
In our last episode <gcvrr0t7ht5vs4qgfimh5ftukessuoka6m@4ax.com>,
jdaves
lept out of the bushes shouting:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
Famous where? Even most of the British regulars on alt.atheism had to
go
to Google to figure out who the hell he was...
And what of it anyway? Appeals to authority are worthless. It makes no
difference if the authority is a Christian, an atheist, or a convert.
Evidence in support of a position is all tha matters, and none in support
of the theist position has been offered.
i guess none of the crap ton of money parochial schools take for
tuition goes for debate class.
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| User: "soulatman" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
14 Dec 2004 06:26:10 AM |
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My "God",
Reading the responses to this news is so amusing. Already the athiests begin
to denoune Dr Flew - "Who is he? So what? Theist lies."
When I studied philosophy at university, Dr Flews books were required core
reading material. Because you have never heard of him perhaps says more
about the depths of your own inquiries into the philosphical position of
Atheism than it does about Dr Anthony Flew. The man is a giant in
philosophy, and anyone wishing to approach the question of the existence of
God would do well to study Dr Flew's work.
For me personally, this news is very encouraging. Dr Flew has moved from
what I have always considered to be the untenable position of atheism, into
the infinitely more sustainable position of agnosticism - with a hint of
deism for good measure lol.
It says alot about atheists in general when one of the pillars of
intellectaul atheistic thought renounces atheism. Atheists generally are an
arrogant bunch, as arrogant as those who claim unique knowledge into the
mind of god and his plan etc. With the advances of science, it is becoming
more and more impossible to be sure of the things we once held necesarily
true, for the very foundations of those truths have shifted position.
Science has been trying (with good reason) to squeeze god out of the picture
for centuries, but it seems the more we inquire and discover, the less
confident we can be that existence is simply a result of random chance
happenings, and the universe is looking more and more conscious in some
sense.
I for one congratulate Dr Flew on his courageous move away from atheism, and
wait enthusiastically to see the reaction of the atheist community as a
whole, now that one of their champions has defected.
Soulatman
"Enkidu" <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote in message
news:Xns95BEB80D56B9Fenkiduleaddogsorg@68.6.19.6...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in
news:DMadnf1gjrmT2SPcRVn-qw@megapath.net:
In our last episode <gcvrr0t7ht5vs4qgfimh5ftukessuoka6m@4ax.com>,
jdaves
lept out of the bushes shouting:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
Famous where? Even most of the British regulars on alt.atheism had to
go
to Google to figure out who the hell he was...
And what of it anyway? Appeals to authority are worthless. It makes no
difference if the authority is a Christian, an atheist, or a convert.
Evidence in support of a position is all tha matters, and none in support
of the theist position has been offered.
--
Enkidu
"Yee-Ha" is not a foreign policy.
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| User: "Elf M. Sternberg" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
14 Dec 2004 12:02:03 PM |
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"soulatman" <////soulatman@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
Reading the responses to this news is so amusing. Already the athiests begin
to denoune Dr Flew - "Who is he? So what? Theist lies."
"Who is he?" is a valid enough question. After all, not
everyone on this newsgroup is a philosophy student. How many "giants"
of philosophy can your next-door-neighbor name?
"So what?" is also valid. After all, Flew's position seems to
be based on personal incredulity and a significant lack of familiarity,
which he himself acknowledges, with the state of the art in
protobiology.
"So what" is also *important*. Since when is philosophy based
on argument from authority?
For me personally, this news is very encouraging. Dr Flew has moved from
what I have always considered to be the untenable position of atheism, into
the infinitely more sustainable position of agnosticism - with a hint of
deism for good measure lol.
If you knew what "agnosticism" meant, you'd know that Flew has
been an "agnostic" his entire life.
And finally, yes, "theist lies." Theists have been crowing
about this as if Flew had decided to become an evangelical.
Besides, in a letter dated October 19th, 2004, Flew more or less
puts the position clear: "I recognize that developments in physics
coming on the last twenty or thirty years can reasonably be seen as in
some degree confirmatory of a previously faith-based belief in god, even
though they still provide no sufficient reason for unbelievers to change
their minds. They certainly have not persuaded me."
Flew is still an atheist.
And misreadings of the anthropic principle are not
philosophically interesting.
Elf
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
14 Dec 2004 06:52:43 AM |
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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:26:10 GMT, "soulatman"
<////soulatman@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
My "God",
Reading the responses to this news is so amusing. Already the athiests begin
to denoune Dr Flew - "Who is he? So what? Theist lies."
Pretends yet another in-your-face stupid, lying theist.
YES. THEIST LIES, AS DEMONSTRATED BELOW.....
What is it with you morons? Why can't you live and let live? What do
you hope you achieve by your in-your-face nastiness and lies?
1. Flew has not become any kind of theist that you wopuld recognise.
2. At most it is deism: a deity that cranked up the universe and then
left it to get on with itself.
3. His "arguments" are from personal ignorance and incredulity
ignorance and his conclusion that a deity MIGHT have done it is a
non-sequitur - something one would have expected a philosophy
proffessor to realise was worthless.
4. He admits that his science is way out of date and that he doesn't
know its latest levels of understanding reality.
5. He was unaware of the furor on the internet and wrote a letter
decouncing the liars who say he has become theist:
"Richard C. Carrier, current Editor in Chief of the Secular Web,
tells me that "the internet has now become awash with rumors" that I
"have converted to Christianity, or am at least no longer an
atheist." Perhaps because I was born too soon to be involved in the
internet world I had heard nothing of this rumour....those rumours
speak false. I remain still what I have been now for over fifty
years, a negative atheist. By this I mean that I construe the initial
letter in the word 'atheist' in the way in which everyone construes
the same initial letter in such words as 'atypical' and 'amoral'." -
Anthony Flew
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| User: "Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
14 Dec 2004 07:44:58 PM |
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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:26:10 GMT, "soulatman" <////soulatman@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
My "God",
Reading the responses to this news is so amusing. Already the athiests begin
to denoune Dr Flew - "Who is he? So what? Theist lies."
When I studied philosophy at university, Dr Flews books were required core
reading material. Because you have never heard of him perhaps says more
about the depths of your own inquiries into the philosphical position of
Atheism than it does about Dr Anthony Flew. The man is a giant in
philosophy, and anyone wishing to approach the question of the existence of
God would do well to study Dr Flew's work.
For me personally, this news is very encouraging. Dr Flew has moved from
what I have always considered to be the untenable position of atheism, into
the infinitely more sustainable position of agnosticism -
Not by his own account.
But pointing that out is just dismissing the gloating theists as liars (which happens,
coincidentally, to be the case in this instance.) How desperate of us, to take Flew's
word over yours.
--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; Billions Served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
For e-mail, hold that tiger!
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
14 Dec 2004 06:34:40 AM |
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soulatman <////soulatman@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in alt.atheism
Science has been trying (with good reason) to squeeze god out of the
picture for centuries,
That's not a goal of science, it's just a by-product. When it's
discovered how or why something works, then "god did it" is no
longer necessary to explain those things.
but it seems the more we inquire and discover, the less confident we
can be that existence is simply a result of random chance
happenings, and the universe is looking more and more conscious in
some sense.
More conscious in what sense? How do comets and meteors smashing
into planets and moons make any of them conscious? What about
colliding galaxies and black holes? You think that they indicate
consciousness in some way?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Tukla Ratte" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
14 Dec 2004 04:36:02 PM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
soulatman <////soulatman@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in alt.atheism
< snip >
but it seems the more we inquire and discover, the less confident we
can be that existence is simply a result of random chance
happenings, and the universe is looking more and more conscious in
some sense.
More conscious in what sense? How do comets and meteors smashing
into planets and moons make any of them conscious? What about
colliding galaxies and black holes? You think that they indicate
consciousness in some way?
He doesn't really understand what "consciousness" is, never having
experienced it himself.
--
Tukla, Eater of Theists, Squeaker of Chew Toys
Official Mascot of Alt.Atheism, aa 1347
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| User: "Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
14 Dec 2004 07:48:16 PM |
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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:34:40 GMT, Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:
soulatman <////soulatman@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in alt.atheism
Science has been trying (with good reason) to squeeze god out of the
picture for centuries,
That's not a goal of science, it's just a by-product. When it's
discovered how or why something works, then "god did it" is no
longer necessary to explain those things.
Or to put it in terms our theist friends may not have considered before (HOW?)
"it would have been impossible unless goddidit" is no longer tenable. That
appears to be the real sticking point for the cretinist crowd.
--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; Billions Served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
For e-mail, hold that tiger!
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
14 Dec 2004 08:06:10 AM |
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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:41:35 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode <gcvrr0t7ht5vs4qgfimh5ftukessuoka6m@4ax.com>, jdaves
lept out of the bushes shouting:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
Famous where? Even most of the British regulars on alt.atheism had to go
to Google to figure out who the hell he was...
To be fair he is an old man. He was better known back in the sixties
when he used to take part in radio discussion programmes.
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
14 Dec 2004 08:25:25 AM |
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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:06:10 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:41:35 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode <gcvrr0t7ht5vs4qgfimh5ftukessuoka6m@4ax.com>, jdaves
lept out of the bushes shouting:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
Famous where? Even most of the British regulars on alt.atheism had to go
to Google to figure out who the hell he was...
To be fair he is an old man. He was better known back in the sixties
when he used to take part in radio discussion programmes.
That's not the problem.
It is the smug stupidity, rudeness and misrepresentation to the point
of lying by the jerks who rub our faces in it. Who imagine they are
making a point.
People who can't live and let live, who take gratuitous religiously
motovated pot shots at ordinary folk just getting on with their own
lives.
Part of the general intolerance that we're expected to put up with.
Yes, I think he is an old man losing his mental agility, because 20
years ago he would have rejected the "argument" and "conclusion in a
first year student - and probably still would today: the "argument" is
from a mixture of ignorance and personal incredulity, and the
"conclusion" is a non-sequitur.
But at the end of it all he doesn't say "God exists" - just that a
deity that set things in motion and then left the universe to get on
with itself *might* be the cause.
However this is logically invalid because there is no way to derive
this - even the "might". He singles out one specific unjustified thing
out of bazillions to say it might have done it.
Although he admits he is ignorant of the latest scientific
understanding in the area.
It's no different than saying he doesn't understand why carrots grow,
so it might be the fairies at the bottom of the garden.
Flew's own words on the subject are at
http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=138
where he says...
"Those rumours speak false. I remain still what I have been now for
over fifty years, a negative atheist. By this I mean that I construe
the initial letter in the word 'atheist' in the way in which everyone
construes the same initial letter in such words as 'atypical' and
'amoral'. For I still believe that it is impossible either to verify
or to falsify - to show to be false - what David Hume in his
Dialogues concerning Natural Religion happily described as "the
religious hypothesis." The more I contemplate the eschatological
teachings of Christianity and Islam the more I wish I could
demonstrate their falsity."
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: "I find no new reason to change my views" (was: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God) |
17 Dec 2004 09:59:48 PM |
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In our last episode <gcvrr0t7ht5vs4qgfimh5ftukessuoka6m@4ax.com>, jdaves
lept out of the bushes shouting:
Famous Atheist Now...
"On 16th December 2004, Professor Antony Flew, British philosopher, well
known rationalist, atheist and an Honorary Associate of Rationalist
International, telephoned me and informed that the wild rumours about his
changed views are baseless. He expressed surprise over the confusion some
people have spread and asserted that his position about the belief in god
remains unchanged and is the same as it was expressed in his famous speech
'Theology and Falsification'. 'I find no new reason to change my views',
Professor Flew said."
http://www.rationalistinternational.net/
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
13 Dec 2004 03:32:29 PM |
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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:38:02 -0600, jdaves <jdaves@nbo.biz> wrote:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
One of World's Leading Atheists Now Believes in God, More or Less,
Based on Scientific Evidence
The Associated Press
Yet another stupid, lying theist ***** wiping his feces in our
faces.
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| User: "No 33 Secretary" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
13 Dec 2004 02:39:40 PM |
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jdaves <jdaves@nbo.biz> wrote in
news:gcvrr0t7ht5vs4qgfimh5ftukessuoka6m@4ax.com:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
One of World's Leading Atheists Now Believes in God, More or Less,
Based on Scientific Evidence
The Associated Press
Said atheist says otherwise. Typical theist lies.
--
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com
Campaign Cartographer now available
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| User: "Iain" |
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| Title: Re: Why should I pray? By Dr. Herbert Samworth |
26 Oct 2004 12:38:25 PM |
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Gospel <GospelNSPAM@NOSPAM.NET> wrote in message news:<SZbed.9314$Al3.5674@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>...
<snip>
You suffer from the human variant of Stupid Panda Syndrome.
~Iain
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| User: "Alan Hobson" |
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| Title: Re: Why should I pray? By Dr. Herbert Samworth |
22 Oct 2004 07:30:33 PM |
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Gospel <GospelNSPAM@NOSPAM.NET> wrote in message news:<SZbed.9314$Al3.5674@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>...
However, these truths give us all the more reason to pray than not pray.
Why is this so? It is because God has ordained prayer as one of the
means by which His perfect will is accomplished.
So your god is powerless to do good unless someone asks him to? Even
if someone asks, it still doesn't have to do it?
This is just stupid. Please, explain how an unanswered prayer can be
a means to accomplish anything other than making the person who prayed
feel powerless and insignificant. Your god's perfect will is to tell
the supplicant to "Take a hike"?
-Alan
aa#1608 BAAWA
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| User: "Iain" |
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| Title: Re: Why should I pray? By Dr. Herbert Samworth |
26 Oct 2004 09:23:36 AM |
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Gospel <GospelNSPAM@NOSPAM.NET> wrote in message news:<SZbed.9314$Al3.5674@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>...
This is an excellent question. There are times when it appears that our
prayers are not heard, or we are too discouraged to pray, or we think
that our prayers really don't make any difference.
<Snippity snip, old thing. Snippity snip!>
I say - Hilleaoh.
That's roysh. Bally all seems to happen aftah one preays.
However, these truths give us all the more reason to pray than not pray.
Why is this so? It is because God has ordained prayer as one of the
means by which His perfect will is accomplished.
Even if there is a Large Fellow in the sky, eithah one's prayah is
doing bally all or one is praying against one's will.
One is not doing the lattah, soh the formah is true. Absolutely top
hole - I have to say.
Mwah mwah sweetie,
~Iain
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Why should I pray? By Dr. Herbert Samworth |
22 Oct 2004 05:55:52 PM |
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On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:05:38 +0000, Gospel wrote:
Violations of the alt.atheism FAQ prohibition of proselytizing can be
reported to:
X-Complaints-To:
Be sure to include full headers.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Why should I pray? By Dr. Herbert Samworth |
22 Oct 2004 01:52:04 PM |
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On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:05:38 GMT, Gospel <GospelNSPAM@NOSPAM.NET>
wrote:
This is an excellent question.
If God is omniscient, prayer is pointless; an omniscient being would
already know what everyone wants without praying.
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: Why should I pray? By Dr. Herbert Samworth |
22 Oct 2004 03:53:06 PM |
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"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:hklin0dvo3pihct5n8vrg81nq7jgb071io@4ax.com...
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:05:38 GMT, Gospel <GospelNSPAM@NOSPAM.NET>
wrote:
This is an excellent question.
If God is omniscient, prayer is pointless; an omniscient being would
already know what everyone wants without praying.
It's "just a formality." :-)
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Why should I pray? By Dr. Herbert Samworth |
22 Oct 2004 05:17:33 PM |
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On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:52:04 GMT, raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote:
If God is omniscient, prayer is pointless; an omniscient being would
already know what everyone wants without praying.
Except that gives us what we need and not what we want. You see, our prayers are always
answered. Try it - you'll like it.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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