| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
13 Apr 2005 11:06:35 PM |
| Object: |
Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
1 Corinthians 6: 9-10
Leviticus 18: 19-30
1 Timothy 1: 10-11
Genesis 19: 1-14
There now. Ignorance is no longer your companion!
.
|
|
| User: "Ash" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
18 Apr 2005 09:14:50 AM |
|
|
Barry OGrady wrote:
Why can't you accept what the Bible says?
Because unlike you, I don't think it was written in English
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "DanielSan" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
18 Apr 2005 06:04:04 PM |
|
|
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:09:56 +0100, Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:04:14 +0100, Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:02:34 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
Ok, so the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Why is that a reason
to think that homosexuality is wrong?
Actually, it doesn't. It's CoD misleading.
The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong to the point of requiring homosexuals
to be killed and denying them access to heaven.
No it doesn't.
While I appreciate your desire to rewrite the Bible, the prohibition against homosexuality
really is there. Its unambiguous. Sorry.
Sorry, but you lie
About what?
About what the Bible says (or doesn't say) about homosexuality.
Unless by bible you mean "Biased and dishonest English translations"
What sort of God do you believe in?
None, but if I did, I wouldn;t remake him in my own image
Why can't you accept what the Bible says?
Why can't you?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
20 Apr 2005 07:47:38 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 16:04:04 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:09:56 +0100, Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:04:14 +0100, Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:02:34 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
Ok, so the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Why is that a reason
to think that homosexuality is wrong?
Actually, it doesn't. It's CoD misleading.
The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong to the point of requiring homosexuals
to be killed and denying them access to heaven.
No it doesn't.
While I appreciate your desire to rewrite the Bible, the prohibition against homosexuality
really is there. Its unambiguous. Sorry.
Sorry, but you lie
About what?
About what the Bible says (or doesn't say) about homosexuality.
I am only the messenger. Your problem is with the Bible.
Unless by bible you mean "Biased and dishonest English translations"
What sort of God do you believe in?
None, but if I did, I wouldn;t remake him in my own image
Why can't you accept what the Bible says?
Why can't you?
I accept was the Bible says because it has no meaning to me.
Barry
.
|
|
|
| User: "DanielSan" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
20 Apr 2005 07:57:30 AM |
|
|
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 16:04:04 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:09:56 +0100, Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:04:14 +0100, Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:02:34 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
Ok, so the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Why is that a reason
to think that homosexuality is wrong?
Actually, it doesn't. It's CoD misleading.
The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong to the point of requiring homosexuals
to be killed and denying them access to heaven.
No it doesn't.
While I appreciate your desire to rewrite the Bible, the prohibition against homosexuality
really is there. Its unambiguous. Sorry.
Sorry, but you lie
About what?
About what the Bible says (or doesn't say) about homosexuality.
I am only the messenger. Your problem is with the Bible.
Unless by bible you mean "Biased and dishonest English translations"
What sort of God do you believe in?
None, but if I did, I wouldn;t remake him in my own image
Why can't you accept what the Bible says?
Why can't you?
I accept was the Bible says because it has no meaning to me.
But, what you think the Bible says is not accurate. Nowhere in the
Bible is homosexual marriage condemned. In fact, in a couple cases,
homosexuality is condoned.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
20 Apr 2005 09:20:39 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 05:57:30 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 16:04:04 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:09:56 +0100, Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:04:14 +0100, Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:02:34 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
Ok, so the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Why is that a reason
to think that homosexuality is wrong?
Actually, it doesn't. It's CoD misleading.
The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong to the point of requiring homosexuals
to be killed and denying them access to heaven.
No it doesn't.
While I appreciate your desire to rewrite the Bible, the prohibition against homosexuality
really is there. Its unambiguous. Sorry.
Sorry, but you lie
About what?
About what the Bible says (or doesn't say) about homosexuality.
I am only the messenger. Your problem is with the Bible.
Unless by bible you mean "Biased and dishonest English translations"
What sort of God do you believe in?
None, but if I did, I wouldn;t remake him in my own image
Why can't you accept what the Bible says?
Why can't you?
I accept was the Bible says because it has no meaning to me.
But, what you think the Bible says is not accurate. Nowhere in the
Bible is homosexual marriage condemned. In fact, in a couple cases,
homosexuality is condoned.
The Bible is full of contradictions. Yes, it condones homosexuality, and
it also condemns it. But, as others have pointed out, it condemns a great
many other things.
Barry
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Douglas Berry" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
15 Apr 2005 09:54:31 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:59:40 +1000, Barry OGrady <not@this.add>
drained his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
What sort of God do you believe in?
You're posting to alt.atheism, moron. We don't believe in gods,
goddesses, or any other variant of Magic Sky Pixie.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
18 Apr 2005 08:43:37 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:54:31 GMT, Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:59:40 +1000, Barry OGrady <not@this.add>
drained his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
What sort of God do you believe in?
You're posting to alt.atheism, moron. We don't believe in gods,
goddesses, or any other variant of Magic Sky Pixie.
The person I replied to was trying to convince me that God does not
oppose homosexuality. From that I assumed that he was a believer.
Why would a non-believer try to defend God?
--
Barry
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ash" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
18 Apr 2005 09:15:35 AM |
|
|
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:54:31 GMT, Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:59:40 +1000, Barry OGrady <not@this.add>
drained his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
What sort of God do you believe in?
You're posting to alt.atheism, moron. We don't believe in gods,
goddesses, or any other variant of Magic Sky Pixie.
The person I replied to was trying to convince me that God does not
oppose homosexuality. From that I assumed that he was a believer.
Why would a non-believer try to defend God?
If you attack a belief my lying about it or misrepresenting it, not only
believers will condem you
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
20 Apr 2005 07:47:41 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:15:35 +0100, Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:54:31 GMT, Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:59:40 +1000, Barry OGrady <not@this.add>
drained his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
What sort of God do you believe in?
You're posting to alt.atheism, moron. We don't believe in gods,
goddesses, or any other variant of Magic Sky Pixie.
The person I replied to was trying to convince me that God does not
oppose homosexuality. From that I assumed that he was a believer.
Why would a non-believer try to defend God?
If you attack a belief my lying about it or misrepresenting it, not only
believers will condem you
I'm not attacking a belief.
Barry
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "DanielSan" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
18 Apr 2005 06:04:46 PM |
|
|
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:54:31 GMT, Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:59:40 +1000, Barry OGrady <not@this.add>
drained his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
What sort of God do you believe in?
You're posting to alt.atheism, moron. We don't believe in gods,
goddesses, or any other variant of Magic Sky Pixie.
The person I replied to was trying to convince me that God does not
oppose homosexuality. From that I assumed that he was a believer.
Why would a non-believer try to defend God?
We're not. We're trying to expose the fallacies, falsehoods, and
follies of your so-called "Perfect" book.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
20 Apr 2005 07:47:42 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 16:04:46 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:54:31 GMT, Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:59:40 +1000, Barry OGrady <not@this.add>
drained his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
What sort of God do you believe in?
You're posting to alt.atheism, moron. We don't believe in gods,
goddesses, or any other variant of Magic Sky Pixie.
The person I replied to was trying to convince me that God does not
oppose homosexuality. From that I assumed that he was a believer.
Why would a non-believer try to defend God?
We're not. We're trying to expose the fallacies, falsehoods, and
follies of your so-called "Perfect" book.
Its not my book. I, too, am trying to expose the fallacies, falsehoods, and
follies of the book, by pointing out what it says.
Barry
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "DanielSan" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
14 Apr 2005 08:45:58 PM |
|
|
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:02:34 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
Ok, so the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Why is that a reason
to think that homosexuality is wrong?
Actually, it doesn't. It's CoD misleading.
The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong to the point of requiring homosexuals
to be killed and denying them access to heaven.
Actually, no, it doesn't. Can you give me the verse in which it says that?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
15 Apr 2005 08:34:16 AM |
|
|
DanielSan wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:02:34 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
Ok, so the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Why is that a reason
to think that homosexuality is wrong?
Actually, it doesn't. It's CoD misleading.
The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong to the point of requiring homosexuals
to be killed and denying them access to heaven.
Actually, no, it doesn't. Can you give me the verse in which it says that?
Leviticus 20:13.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"[T]hose who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves;
and, under the rule of a just God, cannot long retain it."
-- Pres. George W. Bush, Hypocrite, his inauguration speech, 2005
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
15 Apr 2005 07:50:26 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:45:58 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:02:34 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
Ok, so the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Why is that a reason
to think that homosexuality is wrong?
Actually, it doesn't. It's CoD misleading.
The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong to the point of requiring homosexuals
to be killed and denying them access to heaven.
Actually, no, it doesn't.
Actully it does.
Can you give me the verse in which it says that?
If a man lieth with another man...........................they shall both be put to death.
.....effeminate.....shall not enter the kingdom of God.
If you insist I'll look up the verse numbers.
Barry
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ash" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
15 Apr 2005 09:06:45 AM |
|
|
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:45:58 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:02:34 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
Ok, so the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Why is that a reason
to think that homosexuality is wrong?
Actually, it doesn't. It's CoD misleading.
The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong to the point of requiring homosexuals
to be killed and denying them access to heaven.
Actually, no, it doesn't.
Actully it does.
Can you give me the verse in which it says that?
If a man lieth with another man...........................they shall both be put to death.
....effeminate.....shall not enter the kingdom of God.
If you insist I'll look up the verse numbers.
Effinante is an inacurate tranlsation, that is not what was originally
written
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
18 Apr 2005 08:43:40 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:06:45 +0100, Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:45:58 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:02:34 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
Ok, so the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Why is that a reason
to think that homosexuality is wrong?
Actually, it doesn't. It's CoD misleading.
The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong to the point of requiring homosexuals
to be killed and denying them access to heaven.
Actually, no, it doesn't.
Actully it does.
Can you give me the verse in which it says that?
If a man lieth with another man...........................they shall both be put to death.
....effeminate.....shall not enter the kingdom of God.
If you insist I'll look up the verse numbers.
Effinante is an inacurate tranlsation, that is not what was originally
written
There are other examples that suggest God is opposed to homosexuality.
Barry
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "The Great Hairy One" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
17 Apr 2005 02:28:35 AM |
|
|
In article <vhdv5192ikdprkbsq30s360p91pjjj3hag@4ax.com>,
says...
Gidday Barry,
If a man lieth with another man...........................they shall both be put to death.
....effeminate.....shall not enter the kingdom of God.
If you insist I'll look up the verse numbers.
Yes please. I certainly don't remember that passage.
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
24 Apr 2005 05:13:41 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:28:35 +1000, The Great Hairy One <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote:
In article <vhdv5192ikdprkbsq30s360p91pjjj3hag@4ax.com>,
says...
Gidday Barry,
If a man lieth with another man...........................they shall both be put to death.
....effeminate.....shall not enter the kingdom of God.
If you insist I'll look up the verse numbers.
Yes please. I certainly don't remember that passage.
+----------------------------- 1 Corinthians 6:9 ----------------------
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of
God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor
extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
Barry
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ash" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
24 Apr 2005 12:16:07 PM |
|
|
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:28:35 +1000, The Great Hairy One <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote:
In article <vhdv5192ikdprkbsq30s360p91pjjj3hag@4ax.com>,
says...
Gidday Barry,
If a man lieth with another man...........................they shall both be put to death.
....effeminate.....shall not enter the kingdom of God.
If you insist I'll look up the verse numbers.
Yes please. I certainly don't remember that passage.
+----------------------------- 1 Corinthians 6:9 ----------------------
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of
God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor
extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Which of course is meaningles as to what the bible actually says
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
09 May 2005 07:44:32 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:16:07 +0100, Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:28:35 +1000, The Great Hairy One <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote:
In article <vhdv5192ikdprkbsq30s360p91pjjj3hag@4ax.com>,
says...
Gidday Barry,
If a man lieth with another man...........................they shall both be put to death.
....effeminate.....shall not enter the kingdom of God.
If you insist I'll look up the verse numbers.
Yes please. I certainly don't remember that passage.
+----------------------------- 1 Corinthians 6:9 ----------------------
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of
God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor
extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Which of course is meaningles as to what the bible actually says
That is from the Bible.
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
.
|
|
|
| User: "wcb" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
09 May 2005 01:57:02 PM |
|
|
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:16:07 +0100, Ash
<ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:28:35 +1000, The Great Hairy One
<the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote:
In article <vhdv5192ikdprkbsq30s360p91pjjj3hag@4ax.com>,
says...
Gidday Barry,
If a man lieth with another man...........................they shall
both be put to death. ....effeminate.....shall not enter the kingdom of
God. If you insist I'll look up the verse numbers.
Yes please. I certainly don't remember that passage.
+----------------------------- 1 Corinthians 6:9 ----------------------
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of
God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor
extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Which of course is meaningles as to what the bible actually says
That is from the Bible.
The problem with the bible is, it lies. The OT is supposedly
history, Moses did this god did that, the Israelites did this.
Much of it turns out not to be history at all. All those
cities Moses and Joshua supposedly destroyed turned out to
have been empty ruins long before a Moses or Joshua could
have existed.
Archaeologists and historians have long abandoned any idea the
OT is history. No patriarchs, no Egyptian captivity, no
exodus,no 40 years wandering, no bloody genocidal invasion of
Canaan.
None of that happened. It was faux history written many
centuries later after supposed happenings.
And with no exodus, no 40 years wanderin, no Moses on the
mount with god, teh theological portions of the faked histories
are likewise nonsense.
No god on the mount with Moses handing down laws.
Thus the claims god outlawed homosexuality in Leviticus 20
is a lie. A proven lie.
This is merely the homophobic bigotry of ignorant, lying
billy goat herder priests.
All derived claims that these laws are meaningful in
other parts of the bible are based on lies and deciets.
Further, there is no god, and that is provable.
With god disproven, all things that hang off
the claim god exists, heaven, laws against homosexuality,
claims about a religous nut named Jesus also are provably
untrue.
The entire new testament is about as meaningful and true as
Star Trek.
I shall now prove god does not exist and you will go away and
stop pestering people with your empty, false, superstition.
**************************************************
God disproven #1 Short Version
W.C. Barwell 3-9-05
**************************************************
By god here, I mean the Grand God of Grand Theology,
the god that is perfect, omnipotent, omniscient,
omnibenevolent. The god that is defined as the most
powerful thing that can be imagined, the creator of
all. This god is defined as being intelligent, having
conciousness, and will. I mean this in the general
overall sense that the word god means dogmatically to
Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
1. Can god do the impossible, create a square circle or
a 4 sided triangle?
2. That really asks the question, does god create the
rules, the laws, the logic of the Universe at large?
And thus can change them at a whim, or for a reason?
3. Since god is supposedly omnipotent, let us try
answering yes.
4. If yes, god could easily create a world where man has
free will yet freely chooses only to do moral good.
5. But in this world we see that man often does moral
evil.
6. If god could create such a word since he creates the
Universe's rules, and does not do so, god is effectively
the creator of all evil, past, present and future.
Evil exists only because god allows it to when he could
easily end all evil by creating a Universe where indeed
man has free will and yet freely chooses only to do
moral good.
7. Thus god is the author and sustaining cause of all
evil and is himself evil, that is omni-malevolent,
rather than as claimed, omni-benevolent.
8. Since dogmatically, god is supposedly omni-benevolent
rather than omni-malevolent, this is obviously not
acceptable. Allowing god to make the rules makes
him overtly evil.
9. God therefore does not make the rules, the laws or
the logic of the Universe.
10. God is said to be the most powerful thing that can
be imagined, the greatest thing that can exist.
But if god does not make the laws and rules and logic
of the Universe, and cannot change them at whim,
then the Universe with its rules and laws and logic
are more powerful than god, and this dogmatic claim
is obviously not true.
11. This claim is used as a basis of ontological claims
such as Anselm's ontological proof and these type of
ontological proofs are all thus falsified.
12. God is supposedly omnipotent. But if he is limited
by the Universe with its rules and laws and logic,
obviously he is not omnipotent at all. This dogmatic
claim cannot be saved unless you accept a god that
is omni-malevolent as a basic dogma.
13. God is dogmatically claimed to have been the creator
of the Universe, of all that is. But if god does not
make the laws and rules and logic of the Universe,
they must be beyond him, outside him, and must either
preceed him or parallel god's existance, he cannot
have created it thusly, so the dogma that god created
all is false also.
14. One dodge here might be to claim god created the
Universe in the manner that limits him, but god,
being omniscient, superintelligent and omnibenevolent
would have known that by creating such a Universe, he
was creating a Universe tht contained evil only because
he chose to create a limited Universe, so we are back
to claiming god is omni-malevolent. Thus such a dodge
fails.
15. The idea of a perfect omni-everything god preceeds
Christianity, Epicurus noted the problem of evil
in 250 BCE. If the gods are omnibenevolent and omnipotent,
yet evil exists. The gods either cannot or will not end
evil thus must be either not omnibenevolent or
omnipotent or possible neither.
16. Yet over 2,500 years, the theological methodolgy
used to erect the hypothetical Grand God of Grand
Theology which is now dogmatic in all major religous
traditions has failed to see this god as shown above,
cannot exist as claimed.
17. Thus not only is god as so defined an impossible
and failed hypothesis, the theology methodology
used to create such a hypothetical god is a failed
methodology and its basic method, making overarching
assertions without evidence is a failed methodology.
18. What are the laws and the rules and the logic of
the Universe? And what can we say about them?
19. As far as can be noted, we do have good, basic
understandings of the laws of the Universe. Things
are made up of matter and energy, operating in a
framework of time, and dimensions, with rules known
by science, phsycs, chemistry, astronomy and other
sciences.
20. There is no room in these laws and rules of
the Universe for disembodied gods or entities
that have will and who act. Thinking beings
are made of matter and energy and subject to rules
of chemistry and physics.
21. If theology wishes to claim otherwise, theology
bears the burden of demonstrating with hard evidence
that a god or other supernatural entity can exist.
And very much has a burden to prove that the Grand
God of theological tradition has actual and real
existance.
23. The failed theological methodology of making
unsupported assertions and deriving subclaims
is not an acceptable method for doing theology,
since as demonstrated above, that has proven to
be a total failure as a methodology.
(END)
******************************************************
God disproven - Free will disproof of God #1
William C. Barwell 3-8-05
******************************************************
1. Orthodox theology makes several very basic
dogmatic claims about god.
2. A. God is omnipotent
B. God is omniscient
C. God is omnibenevolent
D. God created the entire world
E. God is merciful
3. If god creates a world and everthing in it,
and he is omniscient, he knows everything that
is or will be in that Universe and any future
actions that will take place in that Universe.
4. He knows what a concious being will do in any possible
world he will create. If he creates a world that
at a future date has a man named John Smith, god
would know that there will indeed be a John Smith.
5. Being omniscient, he knows what Smith will do.
He will know in any possible world if Smith is good,
a believer and saved, or is evil and damned.
6. He would then have a choice. Create the contemplated
world with an evil Smith or not. He could easily
change his mind and create a world with a good Smith
instead. God may easily chose any world he wishes,
he has no constraints on his omnipotence.
7. Smith has no choice in the matter, he has no say in
being created, or being created as a good Smith or
an evil Smith. All choice is god's choice alone.
8. Thus Smith has no free will. If he is evil it is
solely because god made the concious and purposeful
decision to create an evil Smith who does moral evil.
Smith's actions, and all his intentions and mental states
are predetermined and created in actuality by god.
He can have no free will even in principle. God does
not create a Smith with free will and turn his loose
in an undetermined Universe. All real acts and all real
mental states of Smith have been considered by god, and
chosen from among many possiblibilities and purposefully
created by god to the smallest detail by god alone,
involving all time within Smith's life, second by second.
9. Nobody has free will. All decisions to create any
man or woman or other sentient beings, angels or devils,
that are good or evil are made by knowingly by god.
If any man or woman or being does moral evil it is
solely and only because god decided to create a world
where they exist and do evil and are damned.
All actions of these beings are specifically chosen
and created by god in the most finegrained manner
physically possible in any Universe God actually
creates, down to the smallest possible actually
existant quantum time and space scales in this world.
10 But god is alledegly omnibenevolent. That is all
good. If he creates men and women or beings who do
moral evil, moral evil exists solely and only because
god knowingly creates morally evil, sentient beings.
11. Since it is god who allows morally evil sentient beings
to exist, he is the creator and sustaining cause of
all moral evil in the Universe, and he could just as
easily created all men to do only moral good, but
specifically and purposefully chose not to do so.
12. Since free will is not possible for man, not even
in principle, there is no way to blame evil on man.
Smith if he is evil is evil because god created him
knowingly as a morally evil man. If he is good, he is
good only because god chose to create him good.
And thus no way to claim evil is necessary to allow for
free will which is a common theological claim.
Free will thus cannot be used to get god out of any
blame for existance of moral evil in the world.
13. An omnibenevolent god cannot, because he is indeed
omnibenevolent, create moral evil by definition.
14. Morally evil men and women exist.
15. Thus a god who is defined as being:
1. Omnipotent
2. Omniscient
3. Omnibenevolent
4. Creator of the entire world
5. Merciful
Cannot exist in a world where moral evil exists.
16. If such a god existed, free will cannot exist.
17. A god that creates a man as evil, then tortures him
for all eternity for evil acts god created him doing,
who could have made him good, made all his acts good,
created him good a believer and saved, is the one who
is evil, not the man so created evil who had no choice
in this at all. Such a god cannot be said to be
omnibenevolent nor merciful, probably cannot even
be claimed to be sane.
(End)
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "DanielSan" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
24 Apr 2005 07:43:47 AM |
|
|
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:28:35 +1000, The Great Hairy One <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote:
In article <vhdv5192ikdprkbsq30s360p91pjjj3hag@4ax.com>,
says...
Gidday Barry,
If a man lieth with another man...........................they shall both be put to death.
....effeminate.....shall not enter the kingdom of God.
If you insist I'll look up the verse numbers.
Yes please. I certainly don't remember that passage.
+----------------------------- 1 Corinthians 6:9 ----------------------
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of
God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor
extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Please research the above passage and find out what it *MEANS* because
what it *SAYS* has been retranslated several times from the original Hebrew.
The passage in 1 COR 6:9 says "malakoi arsenokoitai". Malakoi means
"soft", but the meaning of "arsenokoitai" is unknown, but possibly it
came from "arsenokoites", literally "male-bed". It possibly could refer
to a male prostitute or gigolo.
Theoretically, the above passage says "Be not deceived: neither
fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor
theives, nor the covetous..."
Please research the book you profess to tell the truth so you don't bear
false witness on it.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
09 May 2005 07:44:32 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 05:43:47 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:28:35 +1000, The Great Hairy One <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote:
In article <vhdv5192ikdprkbsq30s360p91pjjj3hag@4ax.com>,
says...
Gidday Barry,
If a man lieth with another man...........................they shall both be put to death.
....effeminate.....shall not enter the kingdom of God.
If you insist I'll look up the verse numbers.
Yes please. I certainly don't remember that passage.
+----------------------------- 1 Corinthians 6:9 ----------------------
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of
God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor
extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Please research the above passage and find out what it *MEANS* because
what it *SAYS* has been retranslated several times from the original Hebrew.
The passage in 1 COR 6:9 says "malakoi arsenokoitai". Malakoi means
"soft", but the meaning of "arsenokoitai" is unknown, but possibly it
came from "arsenokoites", literally "male-bed". It possibly could refer
to a male prostitute or gigolo.
Theoretically, the above passage says "Be not deceived: neither
fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor
theives, nor the covetous..."
The Bible God makes it clear that he disapproves of any non-procreative sex
act.
Please research the book you profess to tell the truth so you don't bear
false witness on it.
There is too much corroborating evidence.
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Douglas Berry" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
15 Apr 2005 09:52:02 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:25:03 +1000, Barry OGrady <not@this.add>
drained his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:02:34 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
Ok, so the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Why is that a reason
to think that homosexuality is wrong?
Actually, it doesn't. It's CoD misleading.
The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong to the point of requiring homosexuals
to be killed and denying them access to heaven.
The Bible says that any stranger who comes close to your chirch should
be killed. Do you believe that as well?
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
15 Apr 2005 09:58:34 AM |
|
|
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:p7lv51t4qq0abi6p9ahvgt7guakkjaplg3@4ax.com...
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:25:03 +1000, Barry OGrady <not@this.add>
drained his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:02:34 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
Ok, so the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Why is that a
reason
to think that homosexuality is wrong?
Actually, it doesn't. It's CoD misleading.
The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong to the point of requiring
homosexuals
to be killed and denying them access to heaven.
The Bible says that any stranger who comes close to your chirch should
be killed. Do you believe that as well?
It also says that you should stone people that pick up sticks on the
sabbath. Like doing yardwork isn't a pain in the ***** as it is ;)
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
|
|
|
| User: "thomas p" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
15 Apr 2005 02:58:17 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:58:34 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:p7lv51t4qq0abi6p9ahvgt7guakkjaplg3@4ax.com...
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:25:03 +1000, Barry OGrady <not@this.add>
drained his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:02:34 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
Ok, so the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Why is that a
reason
to think that homosexuality is wrong?
Actually, it doesn't. It's CoD misleading.
The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong to the point of requiring
homosexuals
to be killed and denying them access to heaven.
The Bible says that any stranger who comes close to your chirch should
be killed. Do you believe that as well?
It also says that you should stone people that pick up sticks on the
sabbath. Like doing yardwork isn't a pain in the ***** as it is ;)
It also puts me in quite a bind, since I have been told that I will be
killed if I don't pick up the damn sticks.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
15 Apr 2005 12:35:19 PM |
|
|
Robibnikoff wrote:
"Douglas Berry" <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in message
news:p7lv51t4qq0abi6p9ahvgt7guakkjaplg3@4ax.com...
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:25:03 +1000, Barry OGrady <not@this.add>
drained his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:02:34 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
Ok, so the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Why is that a
reason
to think that homosexuality is wrong?
Actually, it doesn't. It's CoD misleading.
The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong to the point of requiring
homosexuals
to be killed and denying them access to heaven.
The Bible says that any stranger who comes close to your chirch should
be killed. Do you believe that as well?
It also says that you should stone people that pick up sticks on the
sabbath. Like doing yardwork isn't a pain in the ***** as it is ;)
<shrug /> At least you've got the kids picking up stones. The trick is to stone
people in the streets, not on your lawn.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"[T]hose who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves;
and, under the rule of a just God, cannot long retain it."
-- Pres. George W. Bush, Hypocrite, his inauguration speech, 2005
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
18 Apr 2005 08:43:41 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:52:02 GMT, Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:25:03 +1000, Barry OGrady <not@this.add>
drained his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:02:34 -0700, DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
Ok, so the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Why is that a reason
to think that homosexuality is wrong?
Actually, it doesn't. It's CoD misleading.
The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong to the point of requiring homosexuals
to be killed and denying them access to heaven.
The Bible says that any stranger who comes close to your chirch should
be killed. Do you believe that as well?
Can you give the verse, though I don't see it as being relevant.
Many things are condemned in the Bible.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Barry
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
14 Apr 2005 07:36:53 PM |
|
|
On 13 Apr 2005 21:18:21 -0700, "Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ok, so the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Why is that a reason
to think that homosexuality is wrong?
Its reason to know that the Bible is wrong.
Barry
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Meteorite Debris" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
14 Apr 2005 10:40:55 PM |
|
|
On 13 Apr 2005 21:06:35 -0700 the ET form known as
vivapadrepio@aol.com<vivapadrepio@aol.com> sent a radio signal across
the vast expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
1 Corinthians 6: 9-10
Leviticus 18: 19-30
1 Timothy 1: 10-11
Genesis 19: 1-14
There now. Ignorance is no longer your companion!
So fucking what? The legal code of the Taliban is based on the same
inhumanity.
--
rot13
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
Sunday: A day given over by Americans to wishing that they themselves
were dead and in Heaven, and that their neighbors were dead and in
Hell.
-Mencken
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Douglas Berry" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
14 Apr 2005 09:53:08 AM |
|
|
On 13 Apr 2005 21:06:35 -0700, "vivapadrepio@aol.com"
<vivapadrepio@aol.com> drained his beer, leaned back in the
alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following
1 Corinthians 6: 9-10
Leviticus 18: 19-30
1 Timothy 1: 10-11
Genesis 19: 1-14
There now. Ignorance is no longer your companion!
Levitcus 11:9-12
Now go protest at your local Red Lobster.
Oh, do you believe everything in the Bible?
Do you believe in unicorns?
Dragons?
Saytyrs?
Do you believe that the procedure outlined in Leviticus 14:2-52 for
curing leprosy works? Here it is:
Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead
one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the
blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of
its blood on the patient's right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle
seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb
and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a
sin offering and the other for a burnt offering.
If you were to contract leprosy, would you take this route or use the
medications listed here:
http://health.allrefer.com/health/leprosy-treatment.html
Are you married? If so, do you ritually clean your home after your
wife's period? Leviticus 15:19-30, 33
The Bible has over 300 rules for heterosexuals.. do you follow all of
them to the letter?
Jesus commands that you give all you have to the needy, have you done
that yet?
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Jos Flachs no x, please" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
14 Apr 2005 07:04:15 AM |
|
|
On 13 Apr 2005 21:06:35 -0700, "vivapadrepio@aol.com"
<vivapadrepio@aol.com> wrote:
1 Corinthians 6: 9-10
Leviticus 18: 19-30
1 Timothy 1: 10-11
Genesis 19: 1-14
There now. Ignorance is no longer your companion!
Ah, thank you so much for your wisdom.
Do tell me: you -of course- obey ALL the other commands given in Lev
and Gen? If not, why not? If you do, where are you being nursed?
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "John Baker" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
14 Apr 2005 04:27:32 AM |
|
|
On 13 Apr 2005 21:06:35 -0700, "vivapadrepio@aol.com"
<vivapadrepio@aol.com> wrote:
1 Corinthians 6: 9-10
Leviticus 18: 19-30
1 Timothy 1: 10-11
Genesis 19: 1-14
There now. Ignorance is no longer your companion!
But it would certainly seem to be yours.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Should One Fight Against Homosexuality? |
14 Apr 2005 07:36:44 PM |
|
|
On 13 Apr 2005 21:06:35 -0700, "vivapadrepio@aol.com" <vivapadrepio@aol.com> wrote:
1 Corinthians 6: 9-10
Leviticus 18: 19-30
1 Timothy 1: 10-11
Genesis 19: 1-14
There now. Ignorance is no longer your companion!
Sounds like why one should fight against Christianity.
Barry
.
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
