Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Truth Hunter"
Date:	09 May 2004 01:14:11 PM
Object:	Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?

Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?
The dogma of the Trinity is not understandable because it is
intrinsically incoherent. Trinitarianism grew as a result of trying
to do two mutually exclusive things. Christianity had a monotheistic,
Jewish base. Paul grafted polytheistic principles on to that base
because the other early Christian leaders weren't giving him the
attention he craved. He took his "message", which included elements
from Mithraic mysticism, to people who found no problems in the
concept of multiple gods...pagans.
In order for Paul to make a "god" out of Jesus while adhering to the
monotheism of Judaism, the concept of Trinitarianism HAD to grow.
Once Paul proclaimed Christ Deified, there was no other choice. The
concept of the "Holy Spirit" was added to conform with other pagan
trinities which were usually composed of father, mother and child.
The problem with Trinitarianism and Christianity is that it requires
such mental gymnastics as to make Nadia Comaneci look awkward.
Some Christians claim that the "New Covenant" superceded the Levitical
laws. This claim was necessary because the pagan converts were NOT
going to obey Leviticus. No "New Covenant"...no converts. What such
Christians seldom face is that a trinitarian godhead means that all
three divine persons were involved in everything claimed for one
person. If you have three, three, three gods in one, you cannot say
that any single divine person either was unaware or disapproved of
anything done by the others. Therefore, it is not possible for Jesus
to be both a god and to have negated the covenant with the Jews
because Jesus was as responsible for Leviticus as was either of the
other two persons. Such a change, from "old covenant" to "new
covenant" would mean that a god didn't know the future (not
omniscient) or that he performed an action which he later admitted was
incorrect (not omnipotent).
Soooooo, Jesus handed down the Levitical laws, Jesus ordered babies'
heads dashed against boulders. Jesus sent the Great Flood. Jesus
ordered virgin girls to be passed out to warriors as sex toys. Jesus
boinked his own mother in order to produce himself in the most bizarre
case of incest the world has ever known.
No wonder that Christians have to warp their brains in order to
believe this stuff.
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html
.

User: "Malcolm"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	09 May 2004 01:34:33 PM

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message

Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?

Christianity had a monotheistic, Jewish base. Paul grafted
polytheistic principles on to that base because the other early
Christian leaders weren't giving him the attention he craved. He
took his "message", which included elements from Mithraic
mysticism, to people who found no problems in the concept of
multiple gods...pagans.

This is the "Pauline Chrisitianity" canard. The concept that Jesus was
divine is found in many other Early Christian writers. Paul certainly
developed the idea, but it is unlikely that he invented it.
As for Mithras, people have found various parallels to Jesus in everything
from Egyptian mythology to Central American cults. I am not saying that no
sort of argument can be made, but the evidence is pretty weak.

No wonder that Christians have to warp their brains in order to
believe this stuff.

If God is the fundamental priciple underlying the Universe then it is not
unreasonable that His nature should be difficult to understand.
.

User: "Comicboards.org"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	09 May 2004 03:32:33 PM

Malcolm wrote:

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message

As for Mithras, people have found various parallels to Jesus in everything
from Egyptian mythology to Central American cults. I am not saying that no
sort of argument can be made, but the evidence is pretty weak.

What you are telling us is that you don't know your mythology. If you
did, then you would know that Egyptian Mythology, couldn't have borrowed
from Christianity for the simple fact that it existed thousands of year
before Christ. What Central American cults? Aztect? that is also
mythology, which preceeded Christ by nearly 2000 years.
It pays to pay attention in your literature class.
--
----------------------------------
Discuss Politics, Race Relations, Gay Rights and Marvel or DC characters.
http://www.comicboards.org
.

User: "Malcolm"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	09 May 2004 04:00:21 PM

"Comicboards.org" <tle_mgr@yahoo.com> wrote in message

As for Mithras, people have found various parallels to Jesus in
everything from Egyptian mythology to Central American cults. I
am not saying that no sort of argument can be made, but the
evidence is pretty weak.

Mithraism also preceded Christianity. The argument is that since there are
some similarities between Jesus and Mithras (both were born in a cave in
winter, both had rites which involved drinking blood etc) then Chrisitianity
must have been derived from Mithraism. However since there are also
similarities between Christianity and Egyptian religion (the God Horus dies
and rises etc) then by the same argument Christianity must be Egyptian in
origin. And since similarities are also claimed with Central American
religion (Quetzalcoatl's symbol was a cross, etc), then by the same argument
there must be Central American influence. That seems terribly unlikely, and
the obvious conclusion is that parallels between religions can easily be
drawn, and don't mean too much.

It pays to pay attention in your literature class.

How about actually trying to follow the argument before posting?
.

User: "Pan Paniscus"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	09 May 2004 08:00:01 PM

Malcolm wrote:

"Comicboards.org" <tle_mgr@yahoo.com> wrote in message

It pays to pay attention in your literature class.

How about actually trying to follow the argument before posting?

It seems like you're trying the old slippery slope gambit. I doubt that
it will work however.
Why need it be only one of those previous myths that the myth of jesus
was taken from? Surely the people of the time had heard of many myths
and would have combined them either purposefully or inadvertently.
Whichever way it happened, the jesus myth evidentially appears to be a
mishmash copped from a host of other myths.
Pan
.

User: "Icono"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	11 May 2004 09:35:57 AM

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0405091014.5c951f4f@posting.google.com...

Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?

The dogma of the Trinity is not understandable because it is
intrinsically incoherent.

God is not understandable by humans.
Your post is incoherent.
God is not a human.
YOU don't understand. Who cares?
Do you actually think that you understand even the concept of an entity that
is omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent? (Gee, there's that tri-mode again)
Get real.
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	11 May 2004 09:35:54 PM

On Tue, 11 May 2004 07:35:57 -0700 in episode
<hx5oc.36663$6L3.7755@fed1read05> we saw our hero "Icono"
<iconoclst@home.com>:

God is not understandable by humans.

<and>

YOU don't understand.

Unless you're not human, neither do you...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism,
because it is a merger of State and corporate power."
- Mussolini
.

User: "Reynaud"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	09 May 2004 01:34:30 PM

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0405091014.5c951f4f@posting.google.com...

Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?

The dogma of the Trinity is not understandable because it is
intrinsically incoherent. Trinitarianism grew as a result of trying
to do two mutually exclusive things. Christianity had a monotheistic,
Jewish base. Paul grafted polytheistic principles on to that base
because the other early Christian leaders weren't giving him the
attention he craved. He took his "message", which included elements
from Mithraic mysticism, to people who found no problems in the
concept of multiple gods...pagans.

In order for Paul to make a "god" out of Jesus while adhering to the
monotheism of Judaism, the concept of Trinitarianism HAD to grow.
Once Paul proclaimed Christ Deified, there was no other choice. The
concept of the "Holy Spirit" was added to conform with other pagan
trinities which were usually composed of father, mother and child.

The problem with Trinitarianism and Christianity is that it requires
such mental gymnastics as to make Nadia Comaneci look awkward.

Some Christians claim that the "New Covenant" superceded the Levitical
laws. This claim was necessary because the pagan converts were NOT
going to obey Leviticus. No "New Covenant"...no converts. What such
Christians seldom face is that a trinitarian godhead means that all
three divine persons were involved in everything claimed for one
person. If you have three, three, three gods in one, you cannot say
that any single divine person either was unaware or disapproved of
anything done by the others. Therefore, it is not possible for Jesus
to be both a god and to have negated the covenant with the Jews
because Jesus was as responsible for Leviticus as was either of the
other two persons. Such a change, from "old covenant" to "new
covenant" would mean that a god didn't know the future (not
omniscient) or that he performed an action which he later admitted was
incorrect (not omnipotent).

Soooooo, Jesus handed down the Levitical laws, Jesus ordered babies'
heads dashed against boulders. Jesus sent the Great Flood. Jesus
ordered virgin girls to be passed out to warriors as sex toys. Jesus
boinked his own mother in order to produce himself in the most bizarre
case of incest the world has ever known.

No wonder that Christians have to warp their brains in order to
believe this stuff.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html

@#$%^
All religion is based on mysticism so maybe difficult to understand to
newcomers this is no secret. People that don,t know anything about anything
always condemn it.
Rey
.

User: "Pan Paniscus"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	09 May 2004 08:04:42 PM

Reynaud wrote:

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0405091014.5c951f4f@posting.google.com...

Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?

The dogma of the Trinity is not understandable because it is
intrinsically incoherent. Trinitarianism grew as a result of trying
to do two mutually exclusive things. Christianity had a monotheistic,
Jewish base. Paul grafted polytheistic principles on to that base
because the other early Christian leaders weren't giving him the
attention he craved. He took his "message", which included elements
from Mithraic mysticism, to people who found no problems in the
concept of multiple gods...pagans.

In order for Paul to make a "god" out of Jesus while adhering to the
monotheism of Judaism, the concept of Trinitarianism HAD to grow.
Once Paul proclaimed Christ Deified, there was no other choice. The
concept of the "Holy Spirit" was added to conform with other pagan
trinities which were usually composed of father, mother and child.

The problem with Trinitarianism and Christianity is that it requires
such mental gymnastics as to make Nadia Comaneci look awkward.

Some Christians claim that the "New Covenant" superceded the Levitical
laws. This claim was necessary because the pagan converts were NOT
going to obey Leviticus. No "New Covenant"...no converts. What such
Christians seldom face is that a trinitarian godhead means that all
three divine persons were involved in everything claimed for one
person. If you have three, three, three gods in one, you cannot say
that any single divine person either was unaware or disapproved of
anything done by the others. Therefore, it is not possible for Jesus
to be both a god and to have negated the covenant with the Jews
because Jesus was as responsible for Leviticus as was either of the
other two persons. Such a change, from "old covenant" to "new
covenant" would mean that a god didn't know the future (not
omniscient) or that he performed an action which he later admitted was
incorrect (not omnipotent).

Soooooo, Jesus handed down the Levitical laws, Jesus ordered babies'
heads dashed against boulders. Jesus sent the Great Flood. Jesus
ordered virgin girls to be passed out to warriors as sex toys. Jesus
boinked his own mother in order to produce himself in the most bizarre
case of incest the world has ever known.

No wonder that Christians have to warp their brains in order to
believe this stuff.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html

@#$%^
All religion is based on mysticism so maybe difficult to understand to
newcomers this is no secret. People that don,t know anything about anything
always condemn it.

Rey

If religion is that hard to understand because of its illogic, maybe its
not worth trying to understand.
Pan
.

User: "john w"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	12 May 2004 02:17:56 AM

x-no-archive: yes
On Sun, 09 May 2004 19:04:42 -0600, Pan Paniscus
<nupanpaniscus@yahoo.com> wrote:
john_w replied

Reynaud wrote:

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0405091014.5c951f4f@posting.google.com...

Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?

The dogma of the Trinity is not understandable because it is
intrinsically incoherent. Trinitarianism grew as a result of trying
to do two mutually exclusive things. Christianity had a monotheistic,
Jewish base. Paul grafted polytheistic principles on to that base
because the other early Christian leaders weren't giving him the
attention he craved. He took his "message", which included elements
from Mithraic mysticism, to people who found no problems in the
concept of multiple gods...pagans.

In order for Paul to make a "god" out of Jesus while adhering to the
monotheism of Judaism, the concept of Trinitarianism HAD to grow.
Once Paul proclaimed Christ Deified, there was no other choice. The
concept of the "Holy Spirit" was added to conform with other pagan
trinities which were usually composed of father, mother and child.

The problem with Trinitarianism and Christianity is that it requires
such mental gymnastics as to make Nadia Comaneci look awkward.

Some Christians claim that the "New Covenant" superceded the Levitical
laws. This claim was necessary because the pagan converts were NOT
going to obey Leviticus. No "New Covenant"...no converts. What such
Christians seldom face is that a trinitarian godhead means that all
three divine persons were involved in everything claimed for one
person. If you have three, three, three gods in one, you cannot say
that any single divine person either was unaware or disapproved of
anything done by the others. Therefore, it is not possible for Jesus
to be both a god and to have negated the covenant with the Jews
because Jesus was as responsible for Leviticus as was either of the
other two persons. Such a change, from "old covenant" to "new
covenant" would mean that a god didn't know the future (not
omniscient) or that he performed an action which he later admitted was
incorrect (not omnipotent).

Soooooo, Jesus handed down the Levitical laws, Jesus ordered babies'
heads dashed against boulders. Jesus sent the Great Flood. Jesus
ordered virgin girls to be passed out to warriors as sex toys. Jesus
boinked his own mother in order to produce himself in the most bizarre
case of incest the world has ever known.

No wonder that Christians have to warp their brains in order to
believe this stuff.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html

@#$%^
All religion is based on mysticism so maybe difficult to understand to
newcomers this is no secret. People that don,t know anything about anything
always condemn it.

Rey

If religion is that hard to understand because of its illogic, maybe its
not worth trying to understand.

Christianity is not difficult to understand; it merely requires you to
look outside yourself at Someone greater then you.
If you think living forever in a Utopia is worthy of looking into, I
suggest that you start with the New Testament, the gospel of John.
However, you don't have to wait for Heaven to experience God's
miracles. I have experienced NUMEROUS miracles, as have others in my
family, and a number of friends.
jw

Pan

User: "Jez"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	12 May 2004 05:40:52 AM

"john w @yahoo.com>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
news:boj3a05553h23nan6mo7j6urms56g64haf@4ax.com...

x-no-archive: yes

If religion is that hard to understand because of its illogic, maybe its
not worth trying to understand.

Christianity is not difficult to understand; it merely requires you to
look outside yourself at Someone greater then you.

No, it just needs you to suspend any rational thought.

If you think living forever in a Utopia is worthy of looking into, I
suggest that you start with the New Testament, the gospel of John.

However, you don't have to wait for Heaven to experience God's
miracles. I have experienced NUMEROUS miracles, as have others in my
family, and a number of friends.

Sounds painful.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.

User: "john w"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	12 May 2004 03:28:49 PM

x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 12 May 2004 11:40:52 +0100, "Jez"
<iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
john_w replied

"john w @yahoo.com>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
news:boj3a05553h23nan6mo7j6urms56g64haf@4ax.com...

x-no-archive: yes

If religion is that hard to understand because of its illogic, maybe its
not worth trying to understand.

Christianity is not difficult to understand; it merely requires you to
look outside yourself at Someone greater then you.

No, it just needs you to suspend any rational thought.

You talk big! The above remark was NOT a rational thought. To not
believe in God in spite of the evidence merely because you choose to
pretend autonomy is not rational.
To give up the PROMISE of heaven merely because you want to be
"autonomous" is not rational. To even have HEARD of hell, and to
choose to go there RATHER than to go to heaven, merely so that you can
pretend to be autonomous is not rational.
IE, if I thought there was one chance in 1,000 that my 2 year old had
just swallowed poison, I wouldn't be sitting there hour-after-hour
observing him, wondering if he was going to die. I'd be DASHING him to
the hospital at 95 MPH.
Yet YOU say, "Ehhhh! If there's a hell, I'll go! It beats believing
in God or accepting His endless love."
THAT is not rational.

Sounds painful.

How sad that you are so Satan-filled that you poke fun at miracles and
Utopia.
I bet you laugh at Down's Syndrome and Cerebral Palsy folk when
they're not looking.
jw
.

User: "Jez"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	15 May 2004 09:36:44 AM

"john w @yahoo.com>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
news:uv15a0duo06pfevfie2780n6vieppnl6cr@4ax.com...

x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 12 May 2004 11:40:52 +0100, "Jez"
<iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
john_w replied

"john w @yahoo.com>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
news:boj3a05553h23nan6mo7j6urms56g64haf@4ax.com...

x-no-archive: yes

If religion is that hard to understand because of its illogic, maybe

its

not worth trying to understand.

Christianity is not difficult to understand; it merely requires you to
look outside yourself at Someone greater then you.

No, it just needs you to suspend any rational thought.

You talk big! The above remark was NOT a rational thought. To not
believe in God in spite of the evidence merely because you choose to
pretend autonomy is not rational.

What evidence ? I've never seen any.

To give up the PROMISE of heaven merely because you want to be
"autonomous" is not rational. To even have HEARD of hell, and to
choose to go there RATHER than to go to heaven, merely so that you can
pretend to be autonomous is not rational.

People make lots of promises, why shoud I trust them when I have
nothing to base that trust on ?

IE, if I thought there was one chance in 1,000 that my 2 year old had
just swallowed poison, I wouldn't be sitting there hour-after-hour
observing him, wondering if he was going to die. I'd be DASHING him to
the hospital at 95 MPH.

Quite right too. But it's not a very good analogy really is it !

Yet YOU say, "Ehhhh! If there's a hell, I'll go! It beats believing
in God or accepting His endless love."

THAT is not rational.

I never said that, or even thought about it in those terms.
If there is a 'God'..prove it...show me his tax returns or something.

Sounds painful.

How sad that you are so Satan-filled that you poke fun at miracles and
Utopia.

There is no 'Satan' either dude. He's just a corruption of the Egyptian
deity Set.

I bet you laugh at Down's Syndrome and Cerebral Palsy folk when
they're not looking.

I most certainly do not. But you give me an interesting insight into your
projections !
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.

User: "walksalone"
Title: jw was Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ? (was: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?)	12 May 2004 06:48:24 PM

On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:28:49 -0700, john w played the martyr one more time,
& failed.
follow up set to trolls home group

x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 12 May 2004 11:40:52 +0100, "Jez"
<iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
john_w replied

"john w @yahoo.com>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
news:boj3a05553h23nan6mo7j6urms56g64haf@4ax.com...

x-no-archive: yes

If religion is that hard to understand because of its illogic, maybe its
not worth trying to understand.

Christianity is not difficult to understand; it merely requires you to
look outside yourself at Someone greater then you.

No, it just needs you to suspend any rational thought.

You talk big! The above remark was NOT a rational thought. To not

Indeed you do, you lend credence that the time of big men making small talk
has passed to the time of small men making big talk.

believe in God in spite of the evidence merely because you choose to
pretend autonomy is not rational.

It certainly is when the claimed evidence requires the suspension of
critical thinking faculty's, the same requirement of any other con. As well
as the appeal to individual greed in the case of the xian myth.

To give up the PROMISE of heaven merely because you want to be

The false promise, as can be established by the impossibility of the xian
claims according to its parent myth. Not that it would stop the likes of jw
from claiming otherwise.

"autonomous" is not rational. To even have HEARD of hell, and to

Extremely rational, though the concept of rational is not applicable in
your case on this subject. Lieing is not rational, but you do it with
regularity. You lie by implication all the time, especially when you claim
to understand your myth.

choose to go there RATHER than to go to heaven, merely so that you can
pretend to be autonomous is not rational.

Pretending that liars go to heaven in spite of your grimorie is not
rational either, yet you claim you will go to heaven. An implication that
you can tell your god what to do.

Apples & crabs, the body type. Two year olds can be verified to exist. Your
pantheon can not be even presumed to exist as described based on its parent
myth.

Yet YOU say, "Ehhhh! If there's a hell, I'll go! It beats believing
in God or accepting His endless love."

No, that is your strawman, though as opposed to spending eternity with
those like you, it is an incentive. Eternity with the brain dead, now that
would be hell.

THAT is not rational.

I know of no one that has accused you of being rational, nor is there a
strong probability of anyone who is seriously considered as one that knows
what they are talking about abusing the word by associating it with you.

Sounds painful.

How sad that you are so Satan-filled that you poke fun at miracles and
Utopia.

What miracles? You have not demonstrated anything but a claim, based on the
erroneous assumption on your part that anyone would believe you.

I bet you laugh at Down's Syndrome and Cerebral Palsy folk when
they're not looking.

Still trying the old, paint them with my brush & honey bucket routine? But
why would anyone laugh at those that have no options in being what the are,
when there is you who elected to be the spineless individual that prefers a
lie to the truth.

the loudmouth that can only assert I see.
walksalone who realises that jw can not provide evidence for his claims,
there is none.

--
The first of people against whom judgment will be pronounced on the Day of
Resurrection will be a man who died a martyr. He will be brought and Allah
will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them.
The Almighty will say: And what did you do about them? He will say: I
fought for you until I died a martyr. He will say: You have lied - you did
but fight that it might be said [of you]: He is courageous. And so it was
said.
Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast
into Hell-fire.
The Hadith Qudsi 6
.

User: "Puck Greenman"
Title: Re: jw was Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ? (was: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?)	13 May 2004 11:33:54 AM

x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 12 May 2004 11:40:52 +0100, "Jez"
<iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
john_w replied

"john w @yahoo.com>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
news:boj3a05553h23nan6mo7j6urms56g64haf@4ax.com...

x-no-archive: yes

If religion is that hard to understand because of its illogic, maybe its
not worth trying to understand.

Christianity is not difficult to understand; it merely requires you to
look outside yourself at Someone greater then you.

No, it just needs you to suspend any rational thought.

You talk big!

"Reason", is talking big?
Amazing.
Why does reason scare you so much?

The above remark was NOT a rational thought.

You have a strange translation for "rational".
I suppose that to you, "rational" is to believe your evil myth, no
questions asked?

To not believe in God in spite of the evidence

As you must by now be aware, this is the point where we ask for the
evidence, but you refuse to produce it, because we wont believe it.
I find this odd, because neither Jesus, or Saul/Paul, advocated only
preaching to the choir.

merely because you choose to pretend autonomy is not rational.

What the ***** are you burbling about now?

To give up the PROMISE

Promise, or threat?

of heaven merely because you want to be
"autonomous" is not rational.

That depends on the evidence, and neither you, nor anyone else, has
ever offered any evidence that heaven exists.
Add to that the fact that the usual descriptions of heaven, offered by
either Islam or Christendom, are only hell deferred, and we really
have no reason to be interested.

To even have HEARD of hell, and to
choose to go there RAHER than to go to heaven, merely so that you can
pretend to be autonomus is not rational.

Is that your new word, "autonomous"?
How long did it take you to learn it.

A perfectly reasonable action, but it raises two points in my mind;
1: The existence of two year olds is easily verifiable.
2: why are you dashing the child to hospital; Don't you trust your
god's ability to save the child?

Yet YOU say, "Ehhhh! If there's a hell, I'll go! It beats believing
in God or accepting His endless love."
THAT is not rational.

Well, actually, what we usually say, is "Produce your objective
evidence to support your wild claim, and we will believe". But I
would not expect a xtian to understand the concept of "objective
evidence".

Sounds painful.

How sad that you are so Satan-filled that you poke fun at miracles and

What miracles? Is this something else that you can prove, but are
going to?

Utopia.

Define Utopia; let us see if your idea of heaven, in any way matches
mine, or that of any other atheist.

I bet you laugh at Down's Syndrome and Cerebral Palsy folk when
they're not looking.

No, we are not xtians, who claim that their condition is the result of
some sin of their forebears.
BTW, a young friend of mine has Cerebral Palsy, and is also an
atheist; Who do you suppose she laughs at?
I will tell you a little secret: For all of her disability, it is not
herself she pities, it is people like you, poor, frightened,
creatures, running scared of the boogy man.
Puck Greenman
#162
BAAWA Knight.
.

User: "jw"
Title: Re: jw was Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ? (was: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?)	14 May 2004 02:41:24 PM

x-no-archive: yes
On Thu, 13 May 2004 17:33:54 +0100, Puck Greenman
<puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote:
john w replied

x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 12 May 2004 11:40:52 +0100, "Jez"
<iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
john_w replied

"john w @yahoo.com>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
news:boj3a05553h23nan6mo7j6urms56g64haf@4ax.com...

x-no-archive: yes

If religion is that hard to understand because of its illogic, maybe its
not worth trying to understand.

Christianity is not difficult to understand; it merely requires you to
look outside yourself at Someone greater then you.

No, it just needs you to suspend any rational thought.

You talk big!

"Reason", is talking big?

Amazing.

Why does reason scare you so much?

The above remark was NOT a rational thought.

You have a strange translation for "rational".

I suppose that to you, "rational" is to believe your evil myth, no
questions asked?

To not believe in God in spite of the evidence

As you must by now be aware, this is the point where we ask for the
evidence, but you refuse to produce it, because we wont believe it.

I don't get into this "debate" since there is absolutely NO common
ground. I have MUCH evidence for Christianity, or I would not believe.
Yet for those like you who are not REMOTELY interested in believing
anything beyond yourself, there is no evidence that would convince
you.
As in, it would be almost impossible for me to find a needle in a
haystack, but there are ways it CAN be done.
For YOU, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to find that needle in the haystack,
because you aren't even looking for it.

I find this odd, because neither Jesus, or Saul/Paul, advocated only
preaching to the choir.

merely because you choose to pretend autonomy is not rational.

What the ***** are you burbling about now?

I don't respond to such language.
When you can come back and discuss issues with an open mind and
respect, come back.
jw

To give up the PROMISE

Promise, or threat?

of heaven merely because you want to be
"autonomous" is not rational.

To even have HEARD of hell, and to
choose to go there RAHER than to go to heaven, merely so that you can
pretend to be autonomus is not rational.

Is that your new word, "autonomous"?

Interesting dodge. Attack words and ignore the issue. And you said *I*
had no answers!
LOL!!

How long did it take you to learn it.

Yet YOU say, "Ehhhh! If there's a hell, I'll go! It beats believing
in God or accepting His endless love."
THAT is not rational.

Sounds painful.

How sad that you are so Satan-filled that you poke fun at miracles and

What miracles? Is this something else that you can prove, but are
going to?

Utopia.

Define Utopia; let us see if your idea of heaven, in any way matches
mine, or that of any other atheist.

I bet you laugh at Down's Syndrome and Cerebral Palsy folk when
they're not looking.

No, we are not xtians, who claim that their condition is the result of
some sin of their forebears.

BTW, a young friend of mine has Cerebral Palsy, and is also an
atheist; Who do you suppose she laughs at?

I will tell you a little secret: For all of her disability, it is not
herself she pities, it is people like you, poor, frightened,
creatures, running scared of the boogy man.

Puck Greenman

#162

BAAWA Knight.

User: "Jez"
Title: Re: jw was Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ? (was: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?)	15 May 2004 09:39:33 AM

"jw @yahoo.com>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
news:iu7aa01r8ouuk6ahugqkevdf9gth6kebh7@4ax.com...

x-no-archive: yes

As you must by now be aware, this is the point where we ask for the
evidence, but you refuse to produce it, because we wont believe it.

I don't get into this "debate" since there is absolutely NO common
ground. I have MUCH evidence for Christianity, or I would not believe.

Ahh that 'Readers Digest Version of Christian texts', known as the Bible eh
?

Yet for those like you who are not REMOTELY interested in believing
anything beyond yourself, there is no evidence that would convince
you.

I personally, have no intrest in 'Beliving' in a 'God'.
Hence my posting in alt.atheism.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.

User: "walksalone"
Title: jw was Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ? (was: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?)	12 May 2004 06:33:29 PM

On Wed, 12 May 2004 00:17:56 -0700, john w in a continuing failed attempt
to baffle others with inane ***** & insipid assertions left the
following brown stain on the carpet where he drug his argument across the
floor.
Follow up set to trolls home group. ARCB if anyone really cares.

Path: news.f.de.plusline.net!news.ccowzb.de!news1.dtag.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: john w <"john_weatherly47<no">
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.islam,alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?
Reply-To: God in Heaven
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x-no-archive: yes
On Sun, 09 May 2004 19:04:42 -0600, Pan Paniscus
<nupanpaniscus@yahoo.com> wrote:
john_w replied

Reynaud wrote:

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0405091014.5c951f4f@posting.google.com...

snip

Soooooo, Jesus handed down the Levitical laws, Jesus ordered babies'
heads dashed against boulders. Jesus sent the Great Flood. Jesus
ordered virgin girls to be passed out to warriors as sex toys. Jesus
boinked his own mother in order to produce himself in the most bizarre
case of incest the world has ever known.

No wonder that Christians have to warp their brains in order to
believe this stuff.
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html

@#$%^
All religion is based on mysticism so maybe difficult to understand to
newcomers this is no secret. People that don,t know anything about anything
always condemn it.
Rey

If religion is that hard to understand because of its illogic, maybe its
not worth trying to understand.

Christianity is not difficult to understand; it merely requires you to

Most myths aren't, xianity's trinity concept is.

look outside yourself at Someone greater then you.

The problem with that is, no one there as you are implying. There are many
people of more merit than I, but the xian gods, were they to exist, are not
in that category.

If you think living forever in a Utopia is worthy of looking into, I
suggest that you start with the New Testament, the gospel of John.

I suggest that anyone that can conceive of their life being that worthless
deserves the ills of this world that they could have avoided by putting
minimal effort into controlling their lives.
But for those that like the supernatural & the afterlives proposed by them,
they may find a better one in the Polynesian pantheon. Hell, first nations
of NA for that mater. At least they won't have to go around singing praises
to a sociopath all day & night for eternity.

However, you don't have to wait for Heaven to experience God's
miracles. I have experienced NUMEROUS miracles, as have others in my
family, and a number of friends.

Was that during your claimed sexual abuse era, your porn writing era, or
just on the spur of the moment because, when you get right down to it, you
have only a hollow promise to offer others.

the uninformed one still I see. Care to really dazzle the audience, &
demonstrate how, without changing definitions, your messiah is historically
possible. BTW, you would be expected to support this with documentation,
not claims of prophesy fulfilled after the fact.

Pan

My apologuy's for the intrusion Pan,
--
"When the seventh day arrived, I sent forth and set free a dove. The dove
went forth, but came back; There was no resting-place for it and she turned
round. Then I sent forth and set free a swallow. The swallow went forth,
but came back, There was no resting-place for it and she turned round. Then
I sent forth and set free a raven. The raven went forth and, seeing that
the waters had diminished, He eats, circles, caws, and turns not round."
--Translation by E. A. Speiser, in Ancient Near Eastern Texts from Epic of
Gilgamesh
.

User: "Comicboards.org"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	09 May 2004 03:34:30 PM

Reynaud wrote:

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0405091014.5c951f4f@posting.google.com...

Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?

The dogma of the Trinity is not understandable because it is
intrinsically incoherent. Trinitarianism grew as a result of trying
to do two mutually exclusive things. Christianity had a monotheistic,
Jewish base. Paul grafted polytheistic principles on to that base
because the other early Christian leaders weren't giving him the
attention he craved. He took his "message", which included elements
from Mithraic mysticism, to people who found no problems in the
concept of multiple gods...pagans.

In order for Paul to make a "god" out of Jesus while adhering to the
monotheism of Judaism, the concept of Trinitarianism HAD to grow.
Once Paul proclaimed Christ Deified, there was no other choice. The
concept of the "Holy Spirit" was added to conform with other pagan
trinities which were usually composed of father, mother and child.

The problem with Trinitarianism and Christianity is that it requires
such mental gymnastics as to make Nadia Comaneci look awkward.

Some Christians claim that the "New Covenant" superceded the Levitical
laws. This claim was necessary because the pagan converts were NOT
going to obey Leviticus. No "New Covenant"...no converts. What such
Christians seldom face is that a trinitarian godhead means that all
three divine persons were involved in everything claimed for one
person. If you have three, three, three gods in one, you cannot say
that any single divine person either was unaware or disapproved of
anything done by the others. Therefore, it is not possible for Jesus
to be both a god and to have negated the covenant with the Jews
because Jesus was as responsible for Leviticus as was either of the
other two persons. Such a change, from "old covenant" to "new
covenant" would mean that a god didn't know the future (not
omniscient) or that he performed an action which he later admitted was
incorrect (not omnipotent).

Soooooo, Jesus handed down the Levitical laws, Jesus ordered babies'
heads dashed against boulders. Jesus sent the Great Flood. Jesus
ordered virgin girls to be passed out to warriors as sex toys. Jesus
boinked his own mother in order to produce himself in the most bizarre
case of incest the world has ever known.

No wonder that Christians have to warp their brains in order to
believe this stuff.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html

@#$%^
All religion is based on mysticism so maybe difficult to understand to
newcomers this is no secret. People that don,t know anything about anything
always condemn it.

Rey

What is mystical about Islam, except that it condemns it?
--
----------------------------------
Discuss Politics, Race Relations, Gay Rights and Marvel or DC characters.
http://www.comicboards.org
.

User: "john w"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	12 May 2004 02:14:29 AM

x-no-archive: yes
On Sun, 9 May 2004 13:34:30 -0500, "Reynaud" <sjimk@mts.net> wrote:
john_w replied

"Truth Hunter" <hunter77099@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e164e783.0405091014.5c951f4f@posting.google.com...

Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?

The dogma of the Trinity is not understandable because it is
intrinsically incoherent. Trinitarianism grew as a result of trying
to do two mutually exclusive things. Christianity had a monotheistic,
Jewish base. Paul grafted polytheistic principles on to that base
because the other early Christian leaders weren't giving him the
attention he craved. He took his "message", which included elements
from Mithraic mysticism, to people who found no problems in the
concept of multiple gods...pagans.

In order for Paul to make a "god" out of Jesus while adhering to the
monotheism of Judaism, the concept of Trinitarianism HAD to grow.
Once Paul proclaimed Christ Deified, there was no other choice. The
concept of the "Holy Spirit" was added to conform with other pagan
trinities which were usually composed of father, mother and child.

The problem with Trinitarianism and Christianity is that it requires
such mental gymnastics as to make Nadia Comaneci look awkward.

Some Christians claim that the "New Covenant" superceded the Levitical
laws. This claim was necessary because the pagan converts were NOT
going to obey Leviticus. No "New Covenant"...no converts. What such
Christians seldom face is that a trinitarian godhead means that all
three divine persons were involved in everything claimed for one
person. If you have three, three, three gods in one, you cannot say
that any single divine person either was unaware or disapproved of
anything done by the others. Therefore, it is not possible for Jesus
to be both a god and to have negated the covenant with the Jews
because Jesus was as responsible for Leviticus as was either of the
other two persons. Such a change, from "old covenant" to "new
covenant" would mean that a god didn't know the future (not
omniscient) or that he performed an action which he later admitted was
incorrect (not omnipotent).

Soooooo, Jesus handed down the Levitical laws, Jesus ordered babies'
heads dashed against boulders. Jesus sent the Great Flood. Jesus
ordered virgin girls to be passed out to warriors as sex toys. Jesus
boinked his own mother in order to produce himself in the most bizarre
case of incest the world has ever known.

No wonder that Christians have to warp their brains in order to
believe this stuff.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html

@#$%^
All religion is based on mysticism so maybe difficult to understand to
newcomers this is no secret. People that don,t know anything about anything
always condemn it.

On the contrary, Christianity is based on God's love for mankind being
so intense that He took human form and died in our place to give us
life.
jw

Rey

User: "Jez"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	12 May 2004 05:42:16 AM

"john w @yahoo.com>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
news:tij3a0d2k0svvaptr1b4bn6atkt5ialkbv@4ax.com...

x-no-archive: yes

@#$%^
All religion is based on mysticism so maybe difficult to understand to
newcomers this is no secret. People that don,t know anything about

anything

always condemn it.

On the contrary, Christianity is based on God's love for mankind being
so intense that He took human form and died in our place to give us
life.

No 'Gods' love is so intense he had his own son killed !
I don't think much of that sort of love !
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.

User: "john w"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	12 May 2004 03:35:27 PM

x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 12 May 2004 11:42:16 +0100, "Jez"
<iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
john_w replied

"john w @yahoo.com>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
news:tij3a0d2k0svvaptr1b4bn6atkt5ialkbv@4ax.com...

x-no-archive: yes

@#$%^
All religion is based on mysticism so maybe difficult to understand to
newcomers this is no secret. People that don,t know anything about

anything

always condemn it.

On the contrary, Christianity is based on God's love for mankind being
so intense that He took human form and died in our place to give us
life.

No 'Gods' love is so intense he had his own son killed !

If you knew 1/10th as much as you pretend to, God took human flesh and
died, HIMSELF, in our place. John 1:1 Col 1, Col 2.
John 3:16-17
God SO loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, so that
WHOSOEVER believes on Him shall not PERISH, but SHALL have eternal
life! Because God didn't send His Son into the world to CONDEMN the
world, but so that the whole world could be saved.
THAT IS love.
Any parent would die for their child; but would any parent die for a
complete stranger?

I don't think much of that sort of love !

Then you have a problem. Satan has filled your heart.
jw
.

User: "Jez"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	15 May 2004 09:40:23 AM

"john w @yahoo.com>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
news:ae25a0htqjbh9pm91gmphsehuivh9qo3t4@4ax.com...

x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 12 May 2004 11:42:16 +0100, "Jez"
<iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
john_w replied

"john w @yahoo.com>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
news:tij3a0d2k0svvaptr1b4bn6atkt5ialkbv@4ax.com...

x-no-archive: yes

@#$%^
All religion is based on mysticism so maybe difficult to understand to
newcomers this is no secret. People that don,t know anything about

anything

always condemn it.

On the contrary, Christianity is based on God's love for mankind being
so intense that He took human form and died in our place to give us
life.

No 'Gods' love is so intense he had his own son killed !

If you knew 1/10th as much as you pretend to, God took human flesh and
died, HIMSELF, in our place. John 1:1 Col 1, Col 2.

John 3:16-17
God SO loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, so that
WHOSOEVER believes on Him shall not PERISH, but SHALL have eternal
life! Because God didn't send His Son into the world to CONDEMN the
world, but so that the whole world could be saved.

THAT IS love.

Clueless and arrogant ! Typical of deluded folks.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.

User: "walksalone"
Title: jw was Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ? (was: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?)	12 May 2004 05:40:28 PM

On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:35:27 -0700, john w stumbled across the stage with
the following inept performance, follow up set to trolls home group, ARCB

x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 12 May 2004 11:42:16 +0100, "Jez"
<iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
john_w replied

"john w @yahoo.com>" <john_weatherly47<no> wrote in message
news:tij3a0d2k0svvaptr1b4bn6atkt5ialkbv@4ax.com...

x-no-archive: yes

@#$%^
All religion is based on mysticism so maybe difficult to understand to
newcomers this is no secret. People that don,t know anything about

anything

always condemn it.

On the contrary, Christianity is based on God's love for mankind being
so intense that He took human form and died in our place to give us
life.

No 'Gods' love is so intense he had his own son killed !

If you knew 1/10th as much as you pretend to, God took human flesh and
died, HIMSELF, in our place. John 1:1 Col 1, Col 2.

If you knew 1/1000th as as much as you claim to know, you would realise the
Hellenization of the Judaic myth that led to that claim, a claim that is
against the word of Yahweh. Of course, to find that out will be impossible
for you, you have to be able to comprehend what you read, & your Cliff
notes won't go there.

John 3:16-17
God SO loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, so that
WHOSOEVER believes on Him shall not PERISH, but SHALL have eternal
life! Because God didn't send His Son into the world to CONDEMN the
world, but so that the whole world could be saved.

I see you still quote from the false testament, false according to Yahweh
who said no more personal appearances until judgment day. How's your stock
of asbestos underwear?

THAT IS love.

No, it is not, it is a claim that is not supported by history, or its
parent myth. One of the problems xianity has is that it a ***** stepchild
seeking legitimacy, & there is none. But then, it gives you the warmfies so
you could care less.

Any parent would die for their child; but would any parent die for a
complete stranger?

Adults have indeed did for others they did not know, but then, you will
never comprehend that for your lack of empathy is well established on the
news groups.

I don't think much of that sort of love !

Then you have a problem. Satan has filled your heart.

How can your gods influence those that don't believe in them again? The
same as Ninger influences yours mayhap?

walksalone who finds it amusing that jw does not even realise he has yet to
provide any evidence beyond his lack of evidence.
--
"When the seventh day arrived, I sent forth and set free a dove. The dove
went forth, but came back; There was no resting-place for it and she turned
round. Then I sent forth and set free a swallow. The swallow went forth,
but came back, There was no resting-place for it and she turned round. Then
I sent forth and set free a raven. The raven went forth and, seeing that
the waters had diminished, He eats, circles, caws, and turns not round."
--Translation by E. A. Speiser, in Ancient Near Eastern Texts from Epic of
Gilgamesh
.

User: "Jos Flachs"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	12 May 2004 08:12:54 AM

On Wed, 12 May 2004 00:14:29 -0700, john w
<john_weatherly47<no>@yahoo.com> cross posted to
alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.islam,alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.atheism:

All religion is based on mysticism so maybe difficult to understand to
newcomers this is no secret. People that don,t know anything about anything
always condemn it.

On the contrary, Christianity is based on God's love for mankind being
so intense that He took human form and died in our place to give us
life.

If your god is so omni-whatever you like�, why couldn't THEY
(trinity!) simply forgive mankind? For the mistake your divine trio
made to begin with?
Why the blood and gore? Surely a god of love could simply say 'you are
forgiven?'
.

User: "� R.L. Measures"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	12 May 2004 11:07:18 AM

In article <nl84a0de2uouidjsehsugj46lfjpbp1j5a@4ax.com>,
wcruise@ksc15.th.com wrote:

On Wed, 12 May 2004 00:14:29 -0700, john w
<john_weatherly47<no>@yahoo.com> cross posted to

alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.islam,alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.atheism:

All religion is based on mysticism so maybe difficult to understand to
newcomers this is no secret. People that don,t know anything about anything
always condemn it.

On the contrary, Christianity is based on God's love for mankind being
so intense that He took human form and died in our place to give us
life.

If your god is so omni-whatever you like�, why couldn't THEY
(trinity!) simply forgive mankind? For the mistake your divine trio
made to begin with?

� The Holy Trinity was necessary in order to construct a viable salvation
business.

Why the blood and gore? Surely a god of love could simply say 'you are
forgiven?'

� In order to attract 'pagans' to "Christianity", ritual cannibalism was
needed.
--
� R.L. Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org. + in adr = spam trap
.

User: "john w"
Title: Re: Why the dogma of the Trinity is not understandable ?	12 May 2004 03:37:30 PM

x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 12 May 2004 09:07:18 -0700, +r@somis.org (� R.L. Measures)
wrote:
john_w replied