| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Paul Abeles" |
| Date: |
06 Feb 2004 02:42:06 PM |
| Object: |
Will Israel remain a democracy? |
Most Jews support the status of Israel as a democracy.
The only problem being it must be a " Jewish" democracy as we have seen by
the posts on here.
Many Jews are concerned about the high birth rate of Israeli Arabs.
Should we in the West also be concerned about the breeding rates of Muslims?
Should we in the west take steps to ensure our atho-Christian majority?
Should we allow our sought after lifestyles and standards of living to be
destroyed by alien cultures?
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
10 Feb 2004 10:08:23 PM |
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"dogbert" <dogbert@dogbert.edu> wrote in message
news:hu8j20hujvsebep8onor3pj6qjvkpo5br6@4ax.com...
On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 21:22:37 +0800, "Iskandar Baharuddin"
<brengsek@mcpc.net.au> :
"John Cartmell" <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4c7d00f63djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk...
In article <4024dd0d$1@news.highway1.com.au>,
Iskandar Baharuddin <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote:
Instead, there has been bloodshed and misery, due to two
factors:
It doesn't matter how it happened the question now is simple.
How
does
everyone get *out* of the situation?
The Northern Ireland problem was impossible whilst everyone
continued to
blame others. Only when some people started to forget the past
was
it
possible to start working on solutions. Start forgetting. Find
solutions.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Sharon's decision on the Gaza Strip settlements is positive,
although it will not be welcomed by Hamas.
The problem in both Ireland and the Middle East is the existence
of
small groups which have a vested interest in maintaining the
conflict.
Fortunately the Micks are not quite as irrational as the Arabs.
I cannot prove it, but I feel that a territorial settlemen based
on
the Green Line plus the Golan Heights would succeed in a
referendum
in both Israel and the Palestinian territories. The bulk of both
peoples are heartily sick of the situation. They are not enjoying
the money and sense of power that ongoing conflict produces.
There have been polls that support this view. Sometimes it looks
like even
the majority of settlers would agree.
Since the Arab states and the PLO have been offering this plan to
Israel
for decades and Israel has been refusing for decades it is not too
hard to
see who is to blame the most for the perpetuation of the conflict:
the
leadership of Israel, who are the truly irrational ones.
Is that why, when in Israel conceded up to 96% of the disputed
territory Arafat walked out?
A Palestinian leader said that Israel was offering "only 22%".
The Arab position has not changed since 1947. They want it all.
Arafat's walkout was a blessing in disguise. The Israelis had
conceded too much, well beyond the concept of "secure and recognized
borders" envisaged for all nations in the UN Charter.
Insanity has been defined as:
"Repeating the same action over and over, in the expectation of a
different outcome."
The Arab policy on Palestine appears to qualify.
Izzy
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| User: "irgun43" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 11:53:35 AM |
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"John Cartmell" <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4c7d00f63djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk...
It doesn't matter how it happened the question now is simple. How does
everyone get *out* of the situation?
Sir,
To begin with, The Ayrabs get their psychological, financial, and
political support from people and govts like you
If, instead of blaming Israel, you held the arabs' feet to the fire,
it would get through their teeny brains
irgun43
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| User: "amigocabal" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 07:52:23 PM |
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"irgun43" <irgun43@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:zC9Vb.17808$uM2.14953@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"John Cartmell" <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4c7d00f63djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk...
It doesn't matter how it happened the question now is simple. How does
everyone get *out* of the situation?
Sir,
To begin with, The Ayrabs get their psychological, financial, and
political support from people and govts like you
If, instead of blaming Israel, you held the arabs' feet to the
fire,
it would get through their teeny brains
irgun43
50% of Palestinians are starving according to the UN Food program. Feed
them, before you start to put their feet on the fire!
.
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 08:08:07 PM |
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"amigocabal" <pinkspider123@earthlink.com> wrote in message
news:rDgVb.16934$GO6.9070@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"irgun43" <irgun43@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:zC9Vb.17808$uM2.14953@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"John Cartmell" <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4c7d00f63djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk...
It doesn't matter how it happened the question now is simple.
How does
everyone get *out* of the situation?
Sir,
To begin with, The Ayrabs get their psychological,
financial, and
political support from people and govts like you
If, instead of blaming Israel, you held the arabs' feet
to the
fire,
it would get through their teeny brains
irgun43
50% of Palestinians are starving according to the UN Food
program. Feed
them, before you start to put their feet on the fire!
A key reason for the plight of the Palestinians is the border
closures, which keep Palestinians from working in Israel.
And why have the borders been closed?
Izzy
.
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| User: "Tilly" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 10:28:06 PM |
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Iskandar Baharuddin wrote:
"amigocabal" <pinkspider123@earthlink.com> wrote in message
news:rDgVb.16934$GO6.9070@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"irgun43" <irgun43@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:zC9Vb.17808$uM2.14953@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"John Cartmell" <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4c7d00f63djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk...
It doesn't matter how it happened the question now is simple. How
does everyone get *out* of the situation?
Sir,
To begin with, The Ayrabs get their psychological,
financial, and political support from people and govts like you
If, instead of blaming Israel, you held the arabs' feet to
the fire, it would get through their teeny brains
irgun43
50% of Palestinians are starving according to the UN Food program.
Feed them, before you start to put their feet on the fire!
A key reason for the plight of the Palestinians is the border
closures, which keep Palestinians from working in Israel.
And why have the borders been closed?
Because Palestinian terrorists pretending to be on the way to work, used
the crossings to get into Israel carrying bombs and then blew themselves
up..That is why there are checkpoints and searches.No other reason.
Tilly
Bright1_3@hotmail.com
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| User: "Tilly" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 10:14:43 PM |
|
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TheMan wrote:
DODGE AND WEAVE ***** DETECTOR GOING OFF THE SCALE HERE.
I think this is my solution to all you Zionazi wankers, ask you a
direct question and if you can't answer it with a direct answer I'll
have to assume you admit defeat. It was a very simple question and
you have not given a simple answer.
-TheMan-
<sigh>
Do you know the recent history? In 1995 the Palestinians got a fledging
state called Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza.. With Israeli and overseas
investment they began to build their own infra-structure ,economy and
government with the promise of full statehood within 10 years.
In 2000, they rejected the peace settlement and started the Intifada which
they have refused to end.Israel isn't the cause of an election not being
held. It suits Arafat very nicely to have the the Intifada a s an excuse not
to hold them. He was finding every excuse possible not to hold new
elections even before the Intifada ,because he doesn't want too lose his
hold on power.
Soon after the Intifada started in 2000 ,Israel bombed the airport (in case
Arab/enemy airplanes were sent to assist the Palestinians) and other
buildings that could be used for planning and executing war by the PA,
something all countries do if they can in a war situation.. At the beginning
of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq,strategic targets were taken out by the
US.and coalition ASAP...
Because the infra-structure is ruined, that is the excuse Arafat uses not to
hold an election.That is what the PA have told the UN.They intend to hold
elections (so they say) when the political situation is resolved.
As to history ,the Palestinians refused a UN mandate for the establishment
of a Palestinian State in 1948 and immedietely started a war to try to get
rid of the newly independent Israelis. They asked Palestinian residents
living within Israels borders to leave, whilst they fought the war ,telling
them they could come back in a few days when they had won their war.Those
that fled to other Arab countries stayed in them as refugees after the Arabs
lost the war..Since then the Palestinians have provoked /started several
wars. In 1967 the Israelis launched a pre-emptive strike against 2 million
Arab soldiers, already in position to attack Israel on several borders.
Again the Arabs lost .
In 1974 the Arabs attacked Israel on Yom Kippur and once again they lost
the war they started.With the start of the Intifada the Palestinians once
again started bombing Israeli targets.That is how the Palestinians came to
the situation they are in now. Israel is protecting its citizens against
Palestinian aggression the Palestinians initiated in 2000. It is the right
of every country to protect it's citizens. Nobody but Arab and Muslim
countries even question this in the UN.It is some of the things Israel
Israel is douiing that they are objecting to.ie: the placement of the war
(but not the need for it) and attacks which kill civilians.
Does that make it clearer?
Tilly
Bright1_3@hotmail.com
.
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| User: "TheMan" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 10:24:09 PM |
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"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7JiVb.37583$9k7.785363@news.xtra.co.nz...
TheMan wrote:
DODGE AND WEAVE ***** DETECTOR GOING OFF THE SCALE HERE.
I think this is my solution to all you Zionazi wankers, ask you a
direct question and if you can't answer it with a direct answer I'll
have to assume you admit defeat. It was a very simple question and
you have not given a simple answer.
-TheMan-
<sigh>
Do you know the recent history? In 1995 the Palestinians got a fledging
state called Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza..
Direct answer to a direct question please, no Zionazi spin.
What country do the Palestinians live in?
-TheMan-
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 11:11:59 PM |
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"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:JRiVb.47385$Wa.40630@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7JiVb.37583$9k7.785363@news.xtra.co.nz...
TheMan wrote:
DODGE AND WEAVE ***** DETECTOR GOING OFF THE SCALE HERE.
I think this is my solution to all you Zionazi wankers, ask
you a
direct question and if you can't answer it with a direct
answer I'll
have to assume you admit defeat. It was a very simple question
and
you have not given a simple answer.
-TheMan-
<sigh>
Do you know the recent history? In 1995 the Palestinians got a
fledging
state called Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza..
Direct answer to a direct question please, no Zionazi spin.
What country do the Palestinians live in?
-TheMan-
The putative State of Palestine.
Direct enough?
Izzy
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| User: "TheMan" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
08 Feb 2004 07:53:07 AM |
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"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4025c519$1@news.highway1.com.au...
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:JRiVb.47385$Wa.40630@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7JiVb.37583$9k7.785363@news.xtra.co.nz...
TheMan wrote:
DODGE AND WEAVE ***** DETECTOR GOING OFF THE SCALE HERE.
I think this is my solution to all you Zionazi wankers, ask
you a
direct question and if you can't answer it with a direct
answer I'll
have to assume you admit defeat. It was a very simple question
and
you have not given a simple answer.
-TheMan-
<sigh>
Do you know the recent history? In 1995 the Palestinians got a
fledging
state called Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza..
Direct answer to a direct question please, no Zionazi spin.
What country do the Palestinians live in?
-TheMan-
The putative State of Palestine.
Direct enough?
Nope because no such nation exists as the Israeli's control all that area
and refuse to give it up. Try again.
-TheMan-
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
08 Feb 2004 08:05:07 AM |
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"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:7brVb.48087$Wa.17872@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4025c519$1@news.highway1.com.au...
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:JRiVb.47385$Wa.40630@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7JiVb.37583$9k7.785363@news.xtra.co.nz...
TheMan wrote:
DODGE AND WEAVE ***** DETECTOR GOING OFF THE SCALE
HERE.
I think this is my solution to all you Zionazi wankers,
ask
you a
direct question and if you can't answer it with a direct
answer I'll
have to assume you admit defeat. It was a very simple
question
and
you have not given a simple answer.
-TheMan-
<sigh>
Do you know the recent history? In 1995 the Palestinians got
a
fledging
state called Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza..
Direct answer to a direct question please, no Zionazi spin.
What country do the Palestinians live in?
-TheMan-
The putative State of Palestine.
Direct enough?
Nope because no such nation exists as the Israeli's control all
that area
and refuse to give it up. Try again.
-TheMan-
Please look up the definition of "putative".
Izzy
.
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| User: "Tilly" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 11:12:55 PM |
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TheMan wrote:
"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7JiVb.37583$9k7.785363@news.xtra.co.nz...
TheMan wrote:
DODGE AND WEAVE ***** DETECTOR GOING OFF THE SCALE HERE.
I think this is my solution to all you Zionazi wankers, ask you a
direct question and if you can't answer it with a direct answer I'll
have to assume you admit defeat. It was a very simple question and
you have not given a simple answer.
-TheMan-
<sigh>
Do you know the recent history? In 1995 the Palestinians got a
fledging state called Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza..
Direct answer to a direct question please, no Zionazi spin.
What country do the Palestinians live in?
The Palestinians live in the area that was declared a fledging Palestinian
State in 1995. Since the Intifada the Israelis have taken more territory
because that is where missile , rockets and attacks were being launched
from. The IDF incursions into the PA defined areas is to weed out terrorists
and terrorist groups. The IDF acts on credibele intelligence that attacks
are planned or about to take place. The IDF thwart over a hundred planned
attacks per month, which isn't generally known unless you read the Israeli
newspaper site'Ha'aretz'. It is available free and in English and they
report everything.. They are considered to be left wing and liberal.
Tilly
.
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| User: "amigocabal" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 07:44:01 PM |
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The IDF has taken up positions in part of the former British Mandate
allocated to Palestinians in order to tackle terrorism. It does not
amount to "occupation" in the normal sense of the term.
I guess Nazis never occupied Poland, either. They simply "allocated" it to
themselves
.
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 08:00:55 PM |
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"amigocabal" <pinkspider123@earthlink.com> wrote in message
news:BvgVb.16921$GO6.8163@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
The IDF has taken up positions in part of the former British
Mandate
allocated to Palestinians in order to tackle terrorism. It does
not
amount to "occupation" in the normal sense of the term.
I guess Nazis never occupied Poland, either. They simply
"allocated" it to
themselves
Poland and the eastern/middle European states never attacked
Germany.
When Germany lost the war a chunk was "allocated" to Poland. I don't
hear anyone claiming that this was a violation of international law.
Izzy
.
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| User: "Gary L. Burnore" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 09:05:54 AM |
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On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:28:14 +0800, "Iskandar Baharuddin"
<brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote:
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:8c1Vb.46078$Wa.11182@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:40248189$1@news.highway1.com.au...
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:kR_Ub.45905$Wa.23123@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:72s820tlamo3debmiol27729uv2qkgp7df@Pern.rk...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:53:04 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
Israel was never a democracy, and never will be a
democracy,
so long as
ALL
the people have no right to equality before the law and
right
to elect
their
government!
No country allows non-citizens to vote.
No country with democracy calls half it's population
non-citizens.
The Nazi's would be proud though... I bet they didn't let the
Jews
vote
either.
-TheMan-
Here you go again.
If you argue that the Palestinians are citizens then you are
arguing
that the whole of the former British Mandate belongs to Israel.
Well of course it is, the Zionazi's have taken it over.
***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what country is it
part of??
<----Watch Izzy's reply for typical dodge and weave
-TheMan-
The IDF has taken up positions in part of the former British Mandate
allocated to Palestinians in order to tackle terrorism. It does not
amount to "occupation" in the normal sense of the term.
Sure it does, dip.
Please do not confuse the position of the Government of Israel with
that of Jewish fundies. They are as nuts as Arab fundies.
Someone should have told that to those in the Israeli government then.
When the terrorist attacks stop the IDF will pull out with great
pleasure and relief.
Liar. Unless you really believe it, in which case you're just a
fucking LOON then.
When do you think that will be?
When Israel gets the ***** their land.
--
gburnore at DataBasix dot Com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
How you look depends on where you go.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary L. Burnore | ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³³Ýۺݳ޳ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
| ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³³Ýۺݳ޳ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
Official .sig, Accept no substitutes. | ÝÛ³ºÝ³Þ³ºÝ³³Ýۺݳ޳ºÝ³Ý³Þ³ºÝ³ÝÝÛ³
| ÝÛ 0 1 7 2 3 / Ý³Þ 3 7 4 9 3 0 Û³
Black Helicopter Repair Services, Ltd.| Official Proof of Purchase
===========================================================================
.
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 09:24:02 AM |
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"Gary L. Burnore" <gburnore@databasix.com> wrote in message
news:c02uj8$cb$4@blackhelicopter.databasix.com...
On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:28:14 +0800, "Iskandar Baharuddin"
<brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote:
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:8c1Vb.46078$Wa.11182@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:40248189$1@news.highway1.com.au...
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:kR_Ub.45905$Wa.23123@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:72s820tlamo3debmiol27729uv2qkgp7df@Pern.rk...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:53:04 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
Israel was never a democracy, and never will be a
democracy,
so long as
ALL
the people have no right to equality before the law and
right
to elect
their
government!
No country allows non-citizens to vote.
No country with democracy calls half it's population
non-citizens.
The Nazi's would be proud though... I bet they didn't let
the
Jews
vote
either.
-TheMan-
Here you go again.
If you argue that the Palestinians are citizens then you are
arguing
that the whole of the former British Mandate belongs to
Israel.
Well of course it is, the Zionazi's have taken it over.
***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what country is it
part of??
<----Watch Izzy's reply for typical dodge and weave
-TheMan-
The IDF has taken up positions in part of the former British
Mandate
allocated to Palestinians in order to tackle terrorism. It does
not
amount to "occupation" in the normal sense of the term.
Sure it does, dip.
Please do not confuse the position of the Government of Israel
with
that of Jewish fundies. They are as nuts as Arab fundies.
Someone should have told that to those in the Israeli government
then.
I am quite sure the Israeli government knows that.
When the terrorist attacks stop the IDF will pull out with great
pleasure and relief.
Liar. Unless you really believe it, in which case you're just a
fucking LOON then.
When do you think that will be?
When Israel gets the ***** their land.
Well, we are stuck in a recursive loop. No way will the IDF pull
back while the terrorist attacks continue.
The outlook is pretty grim.
Izzy
.
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| User: "Gary L. Burnore" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 09:29:46 AM |
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On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 23:24:02 +0800, "Iskandar Baharuddin"
<brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote:
"Gary L. Burnore" <gburnore@databasix.com> wrote in message
news:c02uj8$cb$4@blackhelicopter.databasix.com...
On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:28:14 +0800, "Iskandar Baharuddin"
<brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote:
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:8c1Vb.46078$Wa.11182@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:40248189$1@news.highway1.com.au...
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:kR_Ub.45905$Wa.23123@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:72s820tlamo3debmiol27729uv2qkgp7df@Pern.rk...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:53:04 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
Israel was never a democracy, and never will be a
democracy,
so long as
ALL
the people have no right to equality before the law and
right
to elect
their
government!
No country allows non-citizens to vote.
No country with democracy calls half it's population
non-citizens.
The Nazi's would be proud though... I bet they didn't let
the
Jews
vote
either.
-TheMan-
Here you go again.
If you argue that the Palestinians are citizens then you are
arguing
that the whole of the former British Mandate belongs to
Israel.
Well of course it is, the Zionazi's have taken it over.
***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what country is it
part of??
<----Watch Izzy's reply for typical dodge and weave
-TheMan-
The IDF has taken up positions in part of the former British
Mandate
allocated to Palestinians in order to tackle terrorism. It does
not
amount to "occupation" in the normal sense of the term.
Sure it does, dip.
Please do not confuse the position of the Government of Israel
with
that of Jewish fundies. They are as nuts as Arab fundies.
Someone should have told that to those in the Israeli government
then.
I am quite sure the Israeli government knows that.
When the terrorist attacks stop the IDF will pull out with great
pleasure and relief.
Liar. Unless you really believe it, in which case you're just a
fucking LOON then.
When do you think that will be?
When Israel gets the ***** their land.
Well, we are stuck in a recursive loop. No way will the IDF pull
back while the terrorist attacks continue.
If Canaduh were to invade/occupy a US state, people in that state
would fight back with everything they had. Even if all they had were
rocks and very old guns and people so lost for hope that they strap
bombs to themselves.
Well, except for New Jersey.
The outlook is pretty grim.
Unfortulantely, yes. It is. Until such time that the United States
stops coddling Israel and starts drawing a line, nothing will be done.
It's got to stop. It's obvious that neither side is willing to bend.
Monitoring and enforcement from outside forces is the only hope now.
That is of course, my OPINION.
--
gburnore at DataBasix dot Com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
How you look depends on where you go.
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Black Helicopter Repair Services, Ltd.| Official Proof of Purchase
===========================================================================
.
|
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|
| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 09:58:55 AM |
|
|
"Gary L. Burnore" <gburnore@databasix.com> wrote in message
news:c03000$cb$11@blackhelicopter.databasix.com...
On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 23:24:02 +0800, "Iskandar Baharuddin"
<brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote:
"Gary L. Burnore" <gburnore@databasix.com> wrote in message
news:c02uj8$cb$4@blackhelicopter.databasix.com...
On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:28:14 +0800, "Iskandar Baharuddin"
<brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote:
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:8c1Vb.46078$Wa.11182@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in
message
news:40248189$1@news.highway1.com.au...
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:kR_Ub.45905$Wa.23123@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:72s820tlamo3debmiol27729uv2qkgp7df@Pern.rk...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:53:04 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
Israel was never a democracy, and never will be a
democracy,
so long as
ALL
the people have no right to equality before the law
and
right
to elect
their
government!
No country allows non-citizens to vote.
No country with democracy calls half it's population
non-citizens.
The Nazi's would be proud though... I bet they didn't
let
the
Jews
vote
either.
-TheMan-
Here you go again.
If you argue that the Palestinians are citizens then you
are
arguing
that the whole of the former British Mandate belongs to
Israel.
Well of course it is, the Zionazi's have taken it over.
***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what country is
it
part of??
<----Watch Izzy's reply for typical dodge and weave
-TheMan-
The IDF has taken up positions in part of the former British
Mandate
allocated to Palestinians in order to tackle terrorism. It
does
not
amount to "occupation" in the normal sense of the term.
Sure it does, dip.
Please do not confuse the position of the Government of Israel
with
that of Jewish fundies. They are as nuts as Arab fundies.
Someone should have told that to those in the Israeli
government
then.
I am quite sure the Israeli government knows that.
When the terrorist attacks stop the IDF will pull out with
great
pleasure and relief.
Liar. Unless you really believe it, in which case you're just a
fucking LOON then.
When do you think that will be?
When Israel gets the ***** their land.
Well, we are stuck in a recursive loop. No way will the IDF pull
back while the terrorist attacks continue.
If Canaduh were to invade/occupy a US state, people in that state
would fight back with everything they had. Even if all they had
were
rocks and very old guns and people so lost for hope that they
strap
bombs to themselves.
Well, except for New Jersey.
Your analogy is flawed. A better one would be a case in which Maine
invaded Nova Scotia, got its ***** kicked, and found the northern part
of Maine occupied down to a line just north of Montpelier and
Augusta.
I think the pragmatic DownEasters would have some trouble maintaing
a rage of righteous indignation, considering that they started the
mess.
The outlook is pretty grim.
Unfortulantely, yes. It is. Until such time that the United
States
stops coddling Israel and starts drawing a line, nothing will be
done.
It's got to stop. It's obvious that neither side is willing to
bend.
Monitoring and enforcement from outside forces is the only hope
now.
That is of course, my OPINION.
As I said earlier, we will have to wait and see the result of
Sharon's announce policy of pulling the settlements out of the Gaza
Strip.
Will it happen?
If it does happen, will terrorism decrease or increase?
I do not know, and I am quite sure that no one else does. However, I
fear that the end result will be an increase in terrorism, justified
by the argument that Hamas et al "forced" Israel to pull back.
Arabs may have their faults, but excessive pragmatism and gratitude
are not among them.
Izzy
.
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|
| User: "Tilly" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 10:51:12 PM |
|
|
Gary L. Burnore wrote:
If Canaduh were to invade/occupy a US state, people in that state
would fight back with everything they had.
When did Israel invade and occupy them? The Palestinian got their fledgling
astate in 1995 and were well on the way to full statehood. They refused the
2000 peace accord and immediately started the Intifada in 2000. Israel has
been defending her citizens.The UN doesn't argue the right Israel has to do
this, nor do they question the wall. What they are questioning is the
positioning of a section of the wall ,in territory intended for a future
Palestinian State and the methods the IDF sometimes employs to protect it's
citizens.ie: When innocent women and children are killed as well as
terrorists.
Even if all they had were
rocks and very old guns and people so lost for hope that they strap
bombs to themselves.
Well, except for New Jersey.
The outlook is pretty grim.
Unfortulantely, yes. It is. Until such time that the United States
stops coddling Israel and starts drawing a line, nothing will be done.
It's got to stop. It's obvious that neither side is willing to bend.
Monitoring and enforcement from outside forces is the only hope now.
That is of course, my OPINION.
Yes it is.
Last night I watched the film ' Lawrence of Arabia' for the first time ,a
film which managed to capture the Arab 'mindset'. Lawrence's talent was his
ability to understand it and use it to his advantage.
The Palestinians have a very similar mindset to Arabs in general (hardly
surpriseng as they are Arabs- the concept of manhood being connected to
warfare and victory and never accepting losses which are considered a
humiliation. People in the West don't understand how tribal the Arabs still
are, which explains why the Arab States can't agree on anything..They are in
a constant state of disagreement.
The Israelis understand the Arab mindset.
The Arab 'mindset' is something you only really get a sense of if you visit
the region.In many Arab countries tribal groups or factions fight each
other, for example in Lebanon.
The Arab 'mindset' is different to the mindset of almost all other Muslim
countries, which explains why Iskandar who is a Muslim has an intense
dislike of Arab Muslims and Muslim fundamentalists. They are tarring all
Muslijms with the same brush.
Tilly
--
Bright1_3@hotmail.com
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|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 05:28:03 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 08:19:16 GMT, "TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com>
posted in alt.atheism:
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:40248189$1@news.highway1.com.au...
If you argue that the Palestinians are citizens then you are arguing
that the whole of the former British Mandate belongs to Israel.
Well of course it is, the Zionazi's have taken it over.
***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what country is it part of??
Ever hear of Jordan?
--
Zymurgist # 2
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
|
|
|
| User: "TheMan" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 10:30:50 PM |
|
|
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:e3ta2054si23fjlt04nb712b20a05nlc1q@Pern.rk...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 08:19:16 GMT, "TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com>
posted in alt.atheism:
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:40248189$1@news.highway1.com.au...
If you argue that the Palestinians are citizens then you are arguing
that the whole of the former British Mandate belongs to Israel.
Well of course it is, the Zionazi's have taken it over.
***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what country is it part of??
Ever hear of Jordan?
Okay so the west bank and gaza strip are part of Jordan.
Why won't the Zionazi's give it up?
-TheMan-
.
|
|
|
| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 11:13:55 PM |
|
|
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:_XiVb.47389$Wa.40483@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:e3ta2054si23fjlt04nb712b20a05nlc1q@Pern.rk...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 08:19:16 GMT, "TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com>
posted in alt.atheism:
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:40248189$1@news.highway1.com.au...
If you argue that the Palestinians are citizens then you are
arguing
that the whole of the former British Mandate belongs to
Israel.
Well of course it is, the Zionazi's have taken it over.
***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what country is it
part of??
Ever hear of Jordan?
Okay so the west bank and gaza strip are part of Jordan.
Why won't the Zionazi's give it up?
-TheMan-
They have repeatedly stated their willingness to give it up when the
terrorism stops.
Izzy
.
|
|
|
| User: "dogbert" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
14 Feb 2004 01:52:20 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:13:55 +0800, "Iskandar Baharuddin"
<brengsek@mcpc.net.au> :
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:_XiVb.47389$Wa.40483@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:e3ta2054si23fjlt04nb712b20a05nlc1q@Pern.rk...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 08:19:16 GMT, "TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com>
posted in alt.atheism:
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:40248189$1@news.highway1.com.au...
If you argue that the Palestinians are citizens then you are
arguing
that the whole of the former British Mandate belongs to
Israel.
Well of course it is, the Zionazi's have taken it over.
***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what country is it
part of??
Ever hear of Jordan?
Okay so the west bank and gaza strip are part of Jordan.
Why won't the Zionazi's give it up?
-TheMan-
They have repeatedly stated their willingness to give it up when the
terrorism stops.
No, they have not said this, let alone repeatedly.
(Unless you count SC 242 and the Taba 2001 negotiations, both of which
almost say this, but you clearly weren't referring to these.)
Practically the whole of the problem is Israel's desire to keep this land.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
14 Feb 2004 05:11:00 PM |
|
|
"dogbert" <dogbert@dogbert.edu> wrote in message
news:2qus201pr72liajtt6vuu98sni20j392b2@4ax.com...
| On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:13:55 +0800, "Iskandar Baharuddin"
| <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> :
|
| >
| >"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
| >news:_XiVb.47389$Wa.40483@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
| >>
| >> "Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
| >> news:e3ta2054si23fjlt04nb712b20a05nlc1q@Pern.rk...
| >> > On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 08:19:16 GMT, "TheMan"
<noreply@noreply.com>
| >> > posted in alt.atheism:
| >> >
| >> > >"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote
in message
| >> > >news:40248189$1@news.highway1.com.au...
| >> >
| >> > >> If you argue that the Palestinians are citizens
then you are
| >arguing
| >> > >> that the whole of the former British Mandate
belongs to
| >Israel.
| >> >
| >> > >Well of course it is, the Zionazi's have taken it
over.
| >> >
| >> > >***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what
country is it
| >part of??
| >> >
| >> > Ever hear of Jordan?
| >>
| >> Okay so the west bank and gaza strip are part of
Jordan.
| >>
| >> Why won't the Zionazi's give it up?
| >>
| >> -TheMan-
| >>
| >They have repeatedly stated their willingness to give it
up when the
| >terrorism stops.
|
|
| No, they have not said this, let alone repeatedly.
|
| (Unless you count SC 242 and the Taba 2001 negotiations,
both of which
| almost say this, but you clearly weren't referring to
these.)
|
| Practically the whole of the problem is Israel's desire to
keep this land.
|
Why would one not count any of the negotiations? Taba broke
down because Arafat stalled, and the change of government in
Israel meant that the progress had been lost. "Nothing is
agreed until everything is agreed." A key sticking point
was, as usual, the "right of return" which the Arabs know
full well is non-negotiable. Unless Israel elects an idiot
as PM.
Then why is Sharon preparing to pull out of the Gaza Strip
and signalling his intentions to start dismantling
settlements in the West Bank? Unilaterally?
The argument has always been about "secure and recognized
borders".
The Arabs have been totally unrealistic. They seem to think
they can achieve through negotiation what they have failed
to achieve through fifty-five years of conflict.
Izzy
.
|
|
|
| User: "dogbert" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
20 Feb 2004 12:04:02 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 07:11:00 +0800, "Iskandar Baharuddin"
<brengsek@mcpc.net.au> :
"dogbert" <dogbert@dogbert.edu> wrote in message
news:2qus201pr72liajtt6vuu98sni20j392b2@4ax.com...
| On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:13:55 +0800, "Iskandar Baharuddin"
| <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> :
|
| >
| >"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
| >news:_XiVb.47389$Wa.40483@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
| >>
| >> "Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
| >> news:e3ta2054si23fjlt04nb712b20a05nlc1q@Pern.rk...
| >> > On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 08:19:16 GMT, "TheMan"
<noreply@noreply.com>
| >> > posted in alt.atheism:
| >> >
| >> > >"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote
in message
| >> > >news:40248189$1@news.highway1.com.au...
| >> >
| >> > >> If you argue that the Palestinians are citizens
then you are
| >arguing
| >> > >> that the whole of the former British Mandate
belongs to
| >Israel.
| >> >
| >> > >Well of course it is, the Zionazi's have taken it
over.
| >> >
| >> > >***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what
country is it
| >part of??
| >> >
| >> > Ever hear of Jordan?
| >>
| >> Okay so the west bank and gaza strip are part of
Jordan.
| >>
| >> Why won't the Zionazi's give it up?
| >>
| >> -TheMan-
| >>
| >They have repeatedly stated their willingness to give it
up when the
| >terrorism stops.
|
|
| No, they have not said this, let alone repeatedly.
|
| (Unless you count SC 242 and the Taba 2001 negotiations,
both of which
| almost say this, but you clearly weren't referring to
these.)
|
| Practically the whole of the problem is Israel's desire to
keep this land.
|
Why would one not count any of the negotiations?
Because you seem to be saying that there are many Israeli unilateral
statements that they will give up the occupied territories when terrorism
stops.
Taba broke
down because Arafat stalled,
No, it didn't break down, Barak pulled out when there had been remarkable
progress, (at least according to the more optimistic) showing that he may
not have been acting in good faith.
and the change of government in
Israel meant that the progress had been lost. "Nothing is
agreed until everything is agreed." A key sticking point
was, as usual, the "right of return" which the Arabs know
full well is non-negotiable. Unless Israel elects an idiot
as PM.
They were according to some reports pretty close on the right of return
numbers at Taba. The idea that the negotiations have foundered on that or
that the Arabs are asking something unrealistic is a fabrication. I've
given the basic framework of the right of return demands elsewhere.
Then why is Sharon preparing to pull out of the Gaza Strip
This is conceivably something real, but I'll believe it when I see it.
and signalling his intentions to start dismantling
settlements in the West Bank? Unilaterally?
This is a joke. The old made-for TV put up a trailer with a few freaks in
it and pretend that we are dismantling a settlement scam.
The argument has always been about "secure and recognized
borders".
What does this mean?
The Arabs have been totally unrealistic. They seem to think
they can achieve through negotiation what they have failed
to achieve through fifty-five years of conflict.
What you are saying is unclear to me.
What the Arabs want is just what they had before 1967, recognizing all the
illegitimate gains Israel made in 1949. It's a great deal for Israel,
which has acted insanely in refusing it for 28 years. Again, you imply
falsely that the Arabs don't want to negotiate, when taking these 55 years
as a whole, it is clear that they, the militarily weaker party, have
generaly been more willing to talk peace than the Israelis.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
20 Feb 2004 12:23:25 AM |
|
|
"dogbert" <dogbert@dogbert.edu> wrote in message
news:5e8b30tcktk5941k450of4uj499r5qhtr6@4ax.com...
| On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 07:11:00 +0800, "Iskandar Baharuddin"
| <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> :
|
| >
| >"dogbert" <dogbert@dogbert.edu> wrote in message
| >news:2qus201pr72liajtt6vuu98sni20j392b2@4ax.com...
| >| On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:13:55 +0800, "Iskandar
Baharuddin"
| >| <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> :
| >|
| >| >
| >| >"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
| >|
news:_XiVb.47389$Wa.40483@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
| >| >>
| >| >> "Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
| >| >> news:e3ta2054si23fjlt04nb712b20a05nlc1q@Pern.rk...
| >| >> > On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 08:19:16 GMT, "TheMan"
| ><noreply@noreply.com>
| >| >> > posted in alt.atheism:
| >| >> >
| >| >> > >"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au>
wrote
| >in message
| >| >> > >news:40248189$1@news.highway1.com.au...
| >| >> >
| >| >> > >> If you argue that the Palestinians are citizens
| >then you are
| >| >arguing
| >| >> > >> that the whole of the former British Mandate
| >belongs to
| >| >Israel.
| >| >> >
| >| >> > >Well of course it is, the Zionazi's have taken it
| >over.
| >| >> >
| >| >> > >***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what
| >country is it
| >| >part of??
| >| >> >
| >| >> > Ever hear of Jordan?
| >| >>
| >| >> Okay so the west bank and gaza strip are part of
| >Jordan.
| >| >>
| >| >> Why won't the Zionazi's give it up?
| >| >>
| >| >> -TheMan-
| >| >>
| >| >They have repeatedly stated their willingness to give
it
| >up when the
| >| >terrorism stops.
| >|
| >|
| >| No, they have not said this, let alone repeatedly.
| >|
| >| (Unless you count SC 242 and the Taba 2001
negotiations,
| >both of which
| >| almost say this, but you clearly weren't referring to
| >these.)
| >|
| >| Practically the whole of the problem is Israel's desire
to
| >keep this land.
| >|
| >
| >Why would one not count any of the negotiations?
|
| Because you seem to be saying that there are many Israeli
unilateral
| statements that they will give up the occupied territories
when terrorism
| stops.
|
| >Taba broke
| >down because Arafat stalled,
|
| No, it didn't break down, Barak pulled out when there had
been remarkable
| progress, (at least according to the more optimistic)
showing that he may
| not have been acting in good faith.
Barak pulled out because he ran out of time. A simple "OK"
from Arafat would have clinched it.
|
| >and the change of government in
| >Israel meant that the progress had been lost. "Nothing is
| >agreed until everything is agreed." A key sticking point
| >was, as usual, the "right of return" which the Arabs know
| >full well is non-negotiable. Unless Israel elects an
idiot
| >as PM.
|
| They were according to some reports pretty close on the
right of return
| numbers at Taba. The idea that the negotiations have
foundered on that or
| that the Arabs are asking something unrealistic is a
fabrication. I've
| given the basic framework of the right of return demands
elsewhere.
| >
| >Then why is Sharon preparing to pull out of the Gaza
Strip
|
| This is conceivably something real, but I'll believe it
when I see it.
|
| >and signalling his intentions to start dismantling
| >settlements in the West Bank? Unilaterally?
|
| This is a joke. The old made-for TV put up a trailer with
a few freaks in
| it and pretend that we are dismantling a settlement scam.
|
| >
| >The argument has always been about "secure and recognized
| >borders".
|
| What does this mean?
|
| >
| >The Arabs have been totally unrealistic. They seem to
think
| >they can achieve through negotiation what they have
failed
| >to achieve through fifty-five years of conflict.
|
| What you are saying is unclear to me.
Unfortunately my newsreader does not support graphics, so I
am unable to draw you a picture. I could, of course, create
a .gif and attach it, if you like.
|
| What the Arabs want is just what they had before 1967,
recognizing all the
| illegitimate gains Israel made in 1949. It's a great deal
for Israel,
| which has acted insanely in refusing it for 28 years.
Again, you imply
| falsely that the Arabs don't want to negotiate, when
taking these 55 years
| as a whole, it is clear that they, the militarily weaker
party, have
| generaly been more willing to talk peace than the
Israelis.
|
Willing to talk, yes. Willing to say yes, no. And meanwhile,
the terrorism goes on.
Izzy
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
16 Feb 2004 03:59:11 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 19:52:20 GMT, dogbert <dogbert@dogbert.edu> wrote:
Practically the whole of the problem is Israel's desire to keep this land.
When did you get the Arabs to drop the so-called "right of return" ?
.
|
|
|
| User: "dogbert" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
17 Feb 2004 02:16:57 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:59:11 +0200, <gabycoh@hotmail.com> :
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 19:52:20 GMT, dogbert <dogbert@dogbert.edu> wrote:
Practically the whole of the problem is Israel's desire to keep this land.
When did you get the Arabs to drop the so-called "right of return" ?
From many statements - e.g. a NYT Op-Ed by Arafat a few years ago, and
negotiating positions, it is clear that the right of return is to be
understood as (A) official acknowledgement of the obvious, that Israel
bears responsiblity for the refugee problem.
(B) unlimited return to the Palestinian state
and (C) symbolic and small return to Israel, that would not materially
alter the demographic balance, and perhaps (D) compensation for refugee
property
There is nothing there that interferes with any rational Israeli or Jewish
interest; those who say talks foundered on the issue are deceived or
dishonest.
If Israel ever decided to behave in a narrowly self-interested and
non-mentally-retarded way, it would give up a little more to Palestine than
the WB, i.e. adjoining very heavily Arab areas, so as to improve its
"demographic balance."
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
17 Feb 2004 06:42:16 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:16:57 GMT, dogbert <dogbert@dogbert.edu> wrote:
When did you get the Arabs to drop the so-called "right of return" ?
From many statements - e.g. a NYT Op-Ed by Arafat a few years ago, and
negotiating positions, it is clear that the right of return is to be
understood as (A) official acknowledgement of the obvious, that Israel
bears responsiblity for the refugee problem.
The 'obvious' ? You must be joking.
This fake victimolgy is exactly why the conflict goes on.
(C) symbolic and small return to Israel, that would not materially
alter the demographic balance, and perhaps
That goes against the very principle of a two-state solution.
And the Pals have never agreed to any fixed number.
(D) compensation for refugee
property
Only when Jewish refugees are compensated.
Unless this compensation comes from third parties.
If Israel ever decided to behave in a narrowly self-interested and
non-mentally-retarded way, it would give up a little more to Palestine than
the WB, i.e. adjoining very heavily Arab areas,
So you want Israel to get rid of some Arabs, and take in others who
would be a far greater security risk and social burden.
Of course, the Arab Israelis in question refuse vehemently to
relinquish their citizenship and become part of Arafatistan.
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| User: "Deborah Sharavi" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
17 Feb 2004 01:31:38 PM |
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<<<When did you get the Arabs to drop the so-called "right of return"
?
Never.
<On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:16:57 GMT, dogbert <dogbert@dogbert.edu<wrote:
<<From many statements - e.g. a NYT Op-Ed by Arafat a few years ago,
and
<<negotiating positions, it is clear that the right of return is to be
<<understood as (A) official acknowledgement of the obvious, that
Israel
<<bears responsiblity for the refugee problem.
<gabycoh@hotmail.com<wrote in message news:<213430tftshkieh93g8l3mc9kfum4518ir@4ax.com<...
<The 'obvious' ? You must be joking.
<This fake victimolgy is exactly why the conflict goes on.
Just MOTSS.
"The first of our fifth column consists of those who ABANDON their
houses and businesses and go to live elsewhere. At the first signs of
trouble they TAKE TO THEIR HEELS to escape sharing the burden of
struggle."
- Ash Sha'ab (Jaffa) 30 January 1948
"The Arabs preferred to ABANDON THEIR HOMES, their belongings, and
everything they possessed in the world and leave the town."
- Jamal al-Husseini to the Security Council, 23 April 1948
"Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace
to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and
businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will
be safe."
- British police report (Haifa) 26 April 1948
"We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place
the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and
children to safe areas until the fighting has died down."
- Nuri Said, Iraqi PM, May 1948
"Villages were frequently ABANDONED even before they were threatened
by the progress of war."
- London Daily Mail, 12 August 1948
"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000
or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek
safety in FLIGHT. There is but little doubt that the most potent of
the factors were the announcements made over the air by the Higher
Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit. It was clearly intimated
that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and
accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
- Economist (London) 2 October 1948
"The Arab states, which had ENCOURAGED THE PALESTINE ARABS TO LEAVE
their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab
invasion armies, have failed to keep their promises to help these
refugees."
– Falastin (Amman), 19 February 1949
"Observers feel that with proper counsel after the Israeli-Egyptian
armistice, the Arab population might have advantageously remained.
They state that the Israeli Government had given guarantees of
security of person and property. However, no effort was made by Egypt,
Transjordan or even the United Nations Palestine Conciliation
Commission to advise the Faluja Arabs one way or the other."
- NY Times, 4 March 1949
"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee ENCOURAGED
THE REFUGEES' FLIGHT from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa and Jerusalem."
- Near East Broadcasting Station (Cyprus) 3 April 1949
"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by orders of
Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city. By
withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa."
- Times of London, 3 May 1949
"The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the
Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as
simple as a military promenade. He pointed out that they were already
on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land
and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple
matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. Brotherly advice was
given to the Arabs of Palestine to LEAVE
their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring
fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them
down."
- Habib Issa, Al Hoda, 8 June 1951
"Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now
from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have
neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits
and penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states, and
Lebanon amongst them, did it."
– Qul-Shay (Beirut), 19 August 1951
"For the FLIGHT and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who
are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating
Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame
the Arabs...By spreading rumors of Jewish atrocities, killings of
women and children etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts
of the Arabs in Palestine, until THEY FLED leaving their homes and
properties to the enemy."
–Al Urdun (Amman), 9 April 1953
"The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of Jerusalem
appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to LEAVE the country, because the
Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead."
–Akhbar al-Yom (Cairo), 12 October 1953
"The Arab government told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got
out, but they did not get in."
- Ad Difa'a, 6 September 1954
"Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their
homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave.
Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal
to the United Nations to resolve on their return."
- Khaled al-Azzam, Syrian PM 48-49, Memoirs
"The achievment of Jewish state-building was in marked contrast to the
almost total dissolution of the Palestine Arab community...During the
entire Mandatory period, Arab leaders had refused to cooperate with
the British in any scheme of national autonomy as long as the Jews
were similarly included. The Arabs possessed nothing like the Jewish
quasi-government. At no time had the Supreme Moslem Council or the
Arab Higher Committee ever served as more than organs for propaganda
or violence. Neither organization had provided administrative training
or governmental experience. For the tradition-bound Arab community,
therefore, the moment of reckoning had arrived. It was to be a flight
of
such unprecedented proportions that the Arab leadership was incapable
of either organizing or of inhibiting it (Chapter XIII). Indeed, the
leadership itself was the first to take refuge in neighboring lands.
The Husseinis and the Nashashibis were precisely the intellectual and
political elite who were
absent when the Palestinians needed them the most."
- H.M. Sachar, History of Israel vol I, p 309
"Elsewhere in Palestine, the Arab exodus gained momentum, reaching
nearly 175,000 during the last weeks of the Mandate...The most obvious
reason for the mass exodus was the collapse of Palestine Arab
political institutions that ensued upon the flight of the Arab
leadership--at the very moment when that leadership was most needed.
The departure of the mukhtars, judges, and cadis from Haifa and the
New City of Jerusalem, from Jaffa, Safed, and elsewhere, dealt a grave
blow to the Arab population. The semifeudal character of Arab society
rendered the illiterate fellah almost entirely dependent on his
landlord and cadi, and once this elite was gone, the Arab peasant was
terrified by the likelihood of remaining in an institutional and
cultural void."
- Sachar, pp 331-3
<<(C) symbolic and small return to Israel, that would not materially
<<alter the demographic balance, and perhaps
<That goes against the very principle of a two-state solution.
<And the Pals have never agreed to any fixed number.
There were appx 600,000 Arab refugees from western Palestine during
the period 1947-49. Ben-Gurion's opinion, expressed 1st August 1948,
when Israel was in the midst of a war, and also in the process of
absorbing hundreds of thousands of death camp survivors and Jewish
refugees from the Arab states who had instigated that war, was that
the question of those refugees would be settled at some future date
when the question of all those Jewish refugees was settled.
Ben-Gurion's opinion is not shared by Benny Morris, who states that
none of the Arab refugees from 1948 should allowed any "right of
return". I think they should be allowed to return, so long as they can
produce valid evidence that they were legal residents of British
Palestine.
<<(D) compensation for refugee property
<Only when Jewish refugees are compensated.
<Unless this compensation comes from third parties.
Only if those 600,000 Arab refugees from 1948 can produce valid
evidence that they had any property to compensate.
<<If Israel ever decided to behave in a narrowly self-interested and
<<non-mentally-retarded way, it would give up a little more to
Palestine than
<<the WB, i.e. adjoining very heavily Arab areas,
<So you want Israel to get rid of some Arabs, and take in others who
<would be a far greater security risk and social burden.
He wants Israel should vanish and be replaced by another repressive
Muslim Arab dictatorship.
<Of course, the Arab Israelis in question refuse vehemently to
<relinquish their citizenship and become part of Arafatistan.
The majority of Israeli Arabs have made it clear they'd rather
remain in Israel after (and if) a Palestinian state comes into
existence, due to the higher standard of living and more open
society, flawed as it may be, as opposed to another repressive
authoritarian Muslim regime they will encounter in any future
Pallie dictatorship.
Deborah
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
17 Feb 2004 06:13:13 PM |
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"Deborah Sharavi" <dsharavi@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3cf157c1.0402171131.2318f9bf@posting.google.com...
Excellent post snipped to avoid the wrath of Kym
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| The majority of Israeli Arabs have made it clear they'd
rather
| remain in Israel after (and if) a Palestinian state comes
into
| existence, due to the higher standard of living and more
open
| society, flawed as it may be, as opposed to another
repressive
| authoritarian Muslim regime they will encounter in any
future
| Pallie dictatorship.
|
| Deborah
A superb compilation of reputable comments on the
Palestinian refugee issue.
I have saved it in my growing collection.
But will this shut them up? No, they will go on and on and
on....
Many thanks,
Izzy
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