| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Paul Abeles" |
| Date: |
06 Feb 2004 02:42:06 PM |
| Object: |
Will Israel remain a democracy? |
Most Jews support the status of Israel as a democracy.
The only problem being it must be a " Jewish" democracy as we have seen by
the posts on here.
Many Jews are concerned about the high birth rate of Israeli Arabs.
Should we in the West also be concerned about the breeding rates of Muslims?
Should we in the west take steps to ensure our atho-Christian majority?
Should we allow our sought after lifestyles and standards of living to be
destroyed by alien cultures?
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| User: "amigocabal" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
06 Feb 2004 06:53:04 PM |
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Israel was never a democracy, and never will be a democracy, so long as ALL
the people have no right to equality before the law and right to elect their
government!
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
06 Feb 2004 10:58:02 PM |
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On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:53:04 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
Israel was never a democracy, and never will be a democracy, so long as ALL
the people have no right to equality before the law and right to elect their
government!
No country allows non-citizens to vote.
--
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but
not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."
-A. Einstein (1929 -- Einstein Archive 33-272)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "TheMan" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
06 Feb 2004 11:38:24 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:72s820tlamo3debmiol27729uv2qkgp7df@Pern.rk...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:53:04 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
Israel was never a democracy, and never will be a democracy, so long as
ALL
the people have no right to equality before the law and right to elect
their
government!
No country allows non-citizens to vote.
No country with democracy calls half it's population non-citizens.
The Nazi's would be proud though... I bet they didn't let the Jews vote
either.
-TheMan-
.
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| User: "Jack" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 11:31:09 AM |
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"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:kR_Ub.45905$Wa.23123@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:72s820tlamo3debmiol27729uv2qkgp7df@Pern.rk...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:53:04 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
Israel was never a democracy, and never will be a
democracy, so long as
ALL
the people have no right to equality before the law and
right to elect
their
government!
No country allows non-citizens to vote.
No country with democracy calls half it's population
non-citizens.
Very few democracies allowed women to vote before the early 20th
century.
The Nazi's would be proud though... I bet they didn't let the
Jews vote
either.
Actually, they didn't allow anyone to have a vote. Made quite a
point of it.
.
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 12:11:27 AM |
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"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:kR_Ub.45905$Wa.23123@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:72s820tlamo3debmiol27729uv2qkgp7df@Pern.rk...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:53:04 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
Israel was never a democracy, and never will be a democracy,
so long as
ALL
the people have no right to equality before the law and right
to elect
their
government!
No country allows non-citizens to vote.
No country with democracy calls half it's population non-citizens.
The Nazi's would be proud though... I bet they didn't let the Jews
vote
either.
-TheMan-
Here you go again.
If you argue that the Palestinians are citizens then you are arguing
that the whole of the former British Mandate belongs to Israel.
Please clarify.
Izzy
.
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| User: "TheMan" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 02:19:16 AM |
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"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:40248189$1@news.highway1.com.au...
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:kR_Ub.45905$Wa.23123@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:72s820tlamo3debmiol27729uv2qkgp7df@Pern.rk...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:53:04 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
Israel was never a democracy, and never will be a democracy,
so long as
ALL
the people have no right to equality before the law and right
to elect
their
government!
No country allows non-citizens to vote.
No country with democracy calls half it's population non-citizens.
The Nazi's would be proud though... I bet they didn't let the Jews
vote
either.
-TheMan-
Here you go again.
If you argue that the Palestinians are citizens then you are arguing
that the whole of the former British Mandate belongs to Israel.
Well of course it is, the Zionazi's have taken it over.
***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what country is it part of??
<----Watch Izzy's reply for typical dodge and weave
-TheMan-
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 02:28:14 AM |
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"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:8c1Vb.46078$Wa.11182@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:40248189$1@news.highway1.com.au...
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:kR_Ub.45905$Wa.23123@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:72s820tlamo3debmiol27729uv2qkgp7df@Pern.rk...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:53:04 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
Israel was never a democracy, and never will be a
democracy,
so long as
ALL
the people have no right to equality before the law and
right
to elect
their
government!
No country allows non-citizens to vote.
No country with democracy calls half it's population
non-citizens.
The Nazi's would be proud though... I bet they didn't let the
Jews
vote
either.
-TheMan-
Here you go again.
If you argue that the Palestinians are citizens then you are
arguing
that the whole of the former British Mandate belongs to Israel.
Well of course it is, the Zionazi's have taken it over.
***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what country is it
part of??
<----Watch Izzy's reply for typical dodge and weave
-TheMan-
The IDF has taken up positions in part of the former British Mandate
allocated to Palestinians in order to tackle terrorism. It does not
amount to "occupation" in the normal sense of the term.
Neither the Israeli Government nor the Palestinian Authority
consider these areas to be part of Israel. The Palestinians in the
West Bank and Gaza Strip are entitled to vote in Palestinian
elections.
Please do not confuse the position of the Government of Israel with
that of Jewish fundies. They are as nuts as Arab fundies.
When the terrorist attacks stop the IDF will pull out with great
pleasure and relief.
When do you think that will be?
Izzy
PS: How's that for dodging and weaving?
.
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| User: "TheMan" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 06:20:35 AM |
|
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"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4024a197$1@news.highway1.com.au...
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:8c1Vb.46078$Wa.11182@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:40248189$1@news.highway1.com.au...
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:kR_Ub.45905$Wa.23123@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:72s820tlamo3debmiol27729uv2qkgp7df@Pern.rk...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:53:04 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
Israel was never a democracy, and never will be a
democracy,
so long as
ALL
the people have no right to equality before the law and
right
to elect
their
government!
No country allows non-citizens to vote.
No country with democracy calls half it's population
non-citizens.
The Nazi's would be proud though... I bet they didn't let the
Jews
vote
either.
-TheMan-
Here you go again.
If you argue that the Palestinians are citizens then you are
arguing
that the whole of the former British Mandate belongs to Israel.
Well of course it is, the Zionazi's have taken it over.
***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what country is it
part of??
<----Watch Izzy's reply for typical dodge and weave
-TheMan-
The IDF has taken up positions in part of the former British Mandate
allocated to Palestinians in order to tackle terrorism. It does not
amount to "occupation" in the normal sense of the term.
Neither the Israeli Government nor the Palestinian Authority
consider these areas to be part of Israel. The Palestinians in the
West Bank and Gaza Strip are entitled to vote in Palestinian
elections.
Please do not confuse the position of the Government of Israel with
that of Jewish fundies. They are as nuts as Arab fundies.
DODGE AND WEAVE ***** DETECTOR GOING OFF THE SCALE HERE.
I think this is my solution to all you Zionazi wankers, ask you a direct
question and if you can't answer it with a direct answer I'll have to assume
you admit defeat. It was a very simple question and you have not given a
simple answer.
-TheMan-
.
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 06:41:58 AM |
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"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:nK4Vb.46423$Wa.2600@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4024a197$1@news.highway1.com.au...
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:8c1Vb.46078$Wa.11182@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:40248189$1@news.highway1.com.au...
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:kR_Ub.45905$Wa.23123@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:72s820tlamo3debmiol27729uv2qkgp7df@Pern.rk...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:53:04 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
Israel was never a democracy, and never will be a
democracy,
so long as
ALL
the people have no right to equality before the law and
right
to elect
their
government!
No country allows non-citizens to vote.
No country with democracy calls half it's population
non-citizens.
The Nazi's would be proud though... I bet they didn't let
the
Jews
vote
either.
-TheMan-
Here you go again.
If you argue that the Palestinians are citizens then you are
arguing
that the whole of the former British Mandate belongs to
Israel.
Well of course it is, the Zionazi's have taken it over.
***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what country is
it
part of??
<----Watch Izzy's reply for typical dodge and weave
-TheMan-
The IDF has taken up positions in part of the former British
Mandate
allocated to Palestinians in order to tackle terrorism. It does
not
amount to "occupation" in the normal sense of the term.
Neither the Israeli Government nor the Palestinian Authority
consider these areas to be part of Israel. The Palestinians in
the
West Bank and Gaza Strip are entitled to vote in Palestinian
elections.
Please do not confuse the position of the Government of Israel
with
that of Jewish fundies. They are as nuts as Arab fundies.
DODGE AND WEAVE ***** DETECTOR GOING OFF THE SCALE HERE.
I think this is my solution to all you Zionazi wankers, ask you a
direct
question and if you can't answer it with a direct answer I'll have
to assume
you admit defeat. It was a very simple question and you have not
given a
simple answer.
-TheMan-
Is this the direct question to which you refer?
***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what country is
it
part of??
I assumed it was rethorical, but it can be answered:
The Gaza Strip and the West Bank make up the putative State of
Palestine. The State of Palestine could have been established in
1948 had it not been for Arab intransigence. It would today be a
very prosperous place, with a standard of living not much below that
of Israel, thanks to Israeli investment and employment opportunities
for Palestinians in Israel.
Instead, there has been bloodshed and misery, due to two factors:
- the refusal of the Arab states to accept the legal establishment
of Israel by the United Nations
- the Arab delusion that they had the power to reverse the
establishment by force of arms.
Fifty-five years of misery, maintained by people who follow the same
perverse reasoning as yourself.
Izzy
.
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| User: "TheMan" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 08:41:21 AM |
|
|
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4024dd0d$1@news.highway1.com.au...
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:nK4Vb.46423$Wa.2600@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4024a197$1@news.highway1.com.au...
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:8c1Vb.46078$Wa.11182@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:40248189$1@news.highway1.com.au...
"TheMan" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message
news:kR_Ub.45905$Wa.23123@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:72s820tlamo3debmiol27729uv2qkgp7df@Pern.rk...
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:53:04 GMT, "amigocabal"
<pinkspider123@earthlink.com> posted in alt.atheism:
Israel was never a democracy, and never will be a
democracy,
so long as
ALL
the people have no right to equality before the law and
right
to elect
their
government!
No country allows non-citizens to vote.
No country with democracy calls half it's population
non-citizens.
The Nazi's would be proud though... I bet they didn't let
the
Jews
vote
either.
-TheMan-
Here you go again.
If you argue that the Palestinians are citizens then you are
arguing
that the whole of the former British Mandate belongs to
Israel.
Well of course it is, the Zionazi's have taken it over.
***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what country is
it
part of??
<----Watch Izzy's reply for typical dodge and weave
-TheMan-
The IDF has taken up positions in part of the former British
Mandate
allocated to Palestinians in order to tackle terrorism. It does
not
amount to "occupation" in the normal sense of the term.
Neither the Israeli Government nor the Palestinian Authority
consider these areas to be part of Israel. The Palestinians in
the
West Bank and Gaza Strip are entitled to vote in Palestinian
elections.
Please do not confuse the position of the Government of Israel
with
that of Jewish fundies. They are as nuts as Arab fundies.
DODGE AND WEAVE ***** DETECTOR GOING OFF THE SCALE HERE.
I think this is my solution to all you Zionazi wankers, ask you a
direct
question and if you can't answer it with a direct answer I'll have
to assume
you admit defeat. It was a very simple question and you have not
given a
simple answer.
-TheMan-
Is this the direct question to which you refer?
***** your stupid, if it's not part of Israel what country is
it
part of??
I assumed it was rethorical, but it can be answered:
The Gaza Strip and the West Bank make up the putative State of
Palestine. The State of Palestine could have been established in
1948 had it not been for Arab intransigence. It would today be a
very prosperous place, with a standard of living not much below that
of Israel, thanks to Israeli investment and employment opportunities
for Palestinians in Israel.
Okay nice rant but the answer to my question is?
We both know the answer and that is Israel. The state of Palestine does not
yet exist as the people who control that area with their tanks and their
troops and their gunships Israel have not given it up.
Until they do, they have no right to refer to their own people as terrorists
or non-citizens.
-TheMan-
.
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| User: "amigocabal" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 07:46:32 PM |
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The Gaza Strip and the West Bank make up the putative State of
Palestine. The State of Palestine could have been established in
1948 had it not been for Arab intransigence.
What a blatant lie! Ever heard of the massacre of Lydda? Have you read "Road
to Beersheba"? Of course not!
.
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 08:03:12 PM |
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"amigocabal" <pinkspider123@earthlink.com> wrote in message
news:YxgVb.16926$GO6.7426@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
The Gaza Strip and the West Bank make up the putative State of
Palestine. The State of Palestine could have been established in
1948 had it not been for Arab intransigence.
What a blatant lie! Ever heard of the massacre of Lydda? Have you
read "Road
to Beersheba"? Of course not!
Yes, I have.
What has it to do with an attack by the combined legions of the
"mighty Arab League"?
There were Jewish terrorists and Arab terrorists. However, the
history of the Middle East was determined by the actions of
sovereign states.
Which failed, of course.
Izzy
.
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| User: "Tilly" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 10:32:06 PM |
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amigocabal wrote:
The Gaza Strip and the West Bank make up the putative State of
Palestine. The State of Palestine could have been established in
1948 had it not been for Arab intransigence.
What a blatant lie! Ever heard of the massacre of Lydda? Have you
read "Road to Beersheba"? Of course not!
The events you are referring to is before the 1948 UN mandate giving both
Israel and the Palestinians a separate state.
Look up a map of the proposed Palestinian State in the 1948 UN mandate,
which the Palestiunians refused .They wanted all or nothing, hence why they
started a war immediately Israel was given independence.
Your knowledge of the history of the area is sadly lacking.
Tilly
..--
Bright1_3@hotmail.com
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| User: "John Cartmell" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 06:54:56 AM |
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In article <4024dd0d$1@news.highway1.com.au>,
Iskandar Baharuddin <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote:
Instead, there has been bloodshed and misery, due to two factors:
It doesn't matter how it happened the question now is simple. How does
everyone get *out* of the situation?
The Northern Ireland problem was impossible whilst everyone continued to
blame others. Only when some people started to forget the past was it
possible to start working on solutions. Start forgetting. Find solutions.
--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527
Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com
Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines
.
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 07:22:37 AM |
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"John Cartmell" <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4c7d00f63djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk...
In article <4024dd0d$1@news.highway1.com.au>,
Iskandar Baharuddin <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote:
Instead, there has been bloodshed and misery, due to two
factors:
It doesn't matter how it happened the question now is simple. How
does
everyone get *out* of the situation?
The Northern Ireland problem was impossible whilst everyone
continued to
blame others. Only when some people started to forget the past was
it
possible to start working on solutions. Start forgetting. Find
solutions.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Sharon's decision on the Gaza Strip settlements is positive,
although it will not be welcomed by Hamas.
The problem in both Ireland and the Middle East is the existence of
small groups which have a vested interest in maintaining the
conflict.
Fortunately the Micks are not quite as irrational as the Arabs.
I cannot prove it, but I feel that a territorial settlemen based on
the Green Line plus the Golan Heights would succeed in a referendum
in both Israel and the Palestinian territories. The bulk of both
peoples are heartily sick of the situation. They are not enjoying
the money and sense of power that ongoing conflict produces.
Izzy
.
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| User: "amigocabal" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 07:49:00 PM |
|
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"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4024e695@news.highway1.com.au...
"John Cartmell" <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4c7d00f63djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk...
In article <4024dd0d$1@news.highway1.com.au>,
Iskandar Baharuddin <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote:
Instead, there has been bloodshed and misery, due to two
factors:
It doesn't matter how it happened the question now is simple. How
does
everyone get *out* of the situation?
The Northern Ireland problem was impossible whilst everyone
continued to
blame others. Only when some people started to forget the past was
it
possible to start working on solutions. Start forgetting. Find
solutions.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Sharon's decision on the Gaza Strip settlements is positive,
although it will not be welcomed by Hamas.
The problem in both Ireland and the Middle East is the existence of
small groups which have a vested interest in maintaining the
conflict.
Fortunately the Micks are not quite as irrational as the Arabs.
I cannot prove it, but I feel that a territorial settlemen based on
the Green Line plus the Golan Heights would succeed in a referendum
in both Israel and the Palestinian territories. The bulk of both
peoples are heartily sick of the situation. They are not enjoying
the money and sense of power that ongoing conflict produces.
Izzy
About time to get out and shake hands. jewish support for Sharon's fifedom
is rapidly diminishing!
.
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
|
| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 08:06:12 PM |
|
|
"amigocabal" <pinkspider123@earthlink.com> wrote in message
news:gAgVb.16930$GO6.6032@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4024e695@news.highway1.com.au...
"John Cartmell" <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4c7d00f63djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk...
In article <4024dd0d$1@news.highway1.com.au>,
Iskandar Baharuddin <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote:
Instead, there has been bloodshed and misery, due to two
factors:
It doesn't matter how it happened the question now is simple.
How
does
everyone get *out* of the situation?
The Northern Ireland problem was impossible whilst everyone
continued to
blame others. Only when some people started to forget the past
was
it
possible to start working on solutions. Start forgetting. Find
solutions.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Sharon's decision on the Gaza Strip settlements is positive,
although it will not be welcomed by Hamas.
The problem in both Ireland and the Middle East is the existence
of
small groups which have a vested interest in maintaining the
conflict.
Fortunately the Micks are not quite as irrational as the Arabs.
I cannot prove it, but I feel that a territorial settlemen based
on
the Green Line plus the Golan Heights would succeed in a
referendum
in both Israel and the Palestinian territories. The bulk of both
peoples are heartily sick of the situation. They are not
enjoying
the money and sense of power that ongoing conflict produces.
Izzy
About time to get out and shake hands. jewish support for
Sharon's fifedom
is rapidly diminishing!
I keep telling you, they don't play fifes, they play piccolos.
But, yes, you are right. A recent poll concluded that 60% of
Israelis are in favour of pulling out the settlements from both the
Gaza Strip and the West Bank.
Sharon's change of heart appears to be caused by this, rather than
the pressure of terrorist attacks. Of course, the ongoing terrorist
attacks have had a major impact on Israeli public opinion.
Even so, it is not possible to reverse the result of fifty-five
years of history overnight.
Izzy
.
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| User: "irgun43" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 11:59:26 AM |
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"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4024e695@news.highway1.com.au...
I cannot prove it, but I feel that a territorial settlemen based on
the Green Line plus the Golan Heights would succeed in a referendum
in both Israel and the Palestinian territories.
Dear Iskandar,
I cannot prove it, except by the statements and action of the arabs
on the ground , but the goal of the arabs is not a two state solution but a
one state solution - theirs
irgun43
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
07 Feb 2004 02:19:11 PM |
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"irgun43" <irgun43@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:2I9Vb.17812$uM2.9989@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4024e695@news.highway1.com.au...
I cannot prove it, but I feel that a territorial settlemen based
on
the Green Line plus the Golan Heights would succeed in a
referendum
in both Israel and the Palestinian territories.
Dear Iskandar,
I cannot prove it, except by the statements and action of
the arabs
on the ground , but the goal of the arabs is not a two state
solution but a
one state solution - theirs
irgun43
This is certainly true of the professional terrorists, who are doing
very nicely.
I am not nearly so sure it is true of the average Palestinian, who
has suffered constantly for fifty-five years, with nothing to show
for this senseless struggle.
Izzy
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| User: "irgun43" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
08 Feb 2004 12:39:21 AM |
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"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4025483d$1@news.highway1.com.au...
I am not nearly so sure it is true of the average Palestinian, who
has suffered constantly for fifty-five years, with nothing to show
for this senseless struggle.
Izzy
Dear Iskandar,
In an emergency, in the middle of a war of survival, there is no room
to worry about the "average Palestinian" as if to give him a pass. They join
Arafat's forces , they supply him. Similarly, America didn't worry about the
average German or Japanese in WWII. The goal is to survive and win
irgun43
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
08 Feb 2004 02:05:33 AM |
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"irgun43" <irgun43@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:tQkVb.15765$F23.6280@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4025483d$1@news.highway1.com.au...
I am not nearly so sure it is true of the average Palestinian,
who
has suffered constantly for fifty-five years, with nothing to
show
for this senseless struggle.
Izzy
Dear Iskandar,
In an emergency, in the middle of a war of survival, there is
no room
to worry about the "average Palestinian" as if to give him a pass.
They join
Arafat's forces , they supply him. Similarly, America didn't worry
about the
average German or Japanese in WWII. The goal is to survive and win
irgun43
Sorry, but I do not agree.
The Palestinians are victims of Arab instransigence.
If only their true voice could be heard...
Izzy
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| User: "irgun43" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
08 Feb 2004 11:00:50 AM |
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"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4025edc6$1@news.highway1.com.au...
The Palestinians are victims of Arab instransigence.
If only their true voice could be heard...
Izzy
Dear Iskandar,
Have you ever their 'true voice'?
It's like asking for the German's true voice during WWII. It said
"Die Jew". Now, after Germany was throughly smashed and occupied by
foreigners, when theri children were re -educated by non nazi teachers, they
sound sweet as butter. But it took all that violence first.
irgun43
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
08 Feb 2004 03:32:38 PM |
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"irgun43" <irgun43@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:6XtVb.16219$F23.11454@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4025edc6$1@news.highway1.com.au...
The Palestinians are victims of Arab instransigence.
If only their true voice could be heard...
Izzy
Dear Iskandar,
Have you ever their 'true voice'?
It's like asking for the German's true voice during WWII.
It said
"Die Jew". Now, after Germany was throughly smashed and occupied
by
foreigners, when theri children were re -educated by non nazi
teachers, they
sound sweet as butter. But it took all that violence first.
irgun43
I am not sure you are right about the Germans. Neither am I sure
about the Palestinians.
But I would like to know what the average Palestinian thinks. Pity
it is impossible to find out.
Unlike the Israelis, who have no problem with polling.
Izzy
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| User: "irgun43" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
08 Feb 2004 04:06:28 PM |
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"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4026aaf4@news.highway1.com.au...
I am not sure you are right about the Germans. Neither am I sure
about the Palestinians.
But I would like to know what the average Palestinian thinks. Pity
it is impossible to find out.
Unlike the Israelis, who have no problem with polling.
Izzy
Dear Iskandar,
Speculation is dangerous to Israel; facts count.
Let's say 30% are our deadly enemies. That's enough to keep the pot
boiling for the next 80 years and a danger to the State.
It's a total waste of time to feel sorry for those who want to kill
you and dangerous to the community
irgun43
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
08 Feb 2004 05:48:44 PM |
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"irgun43" <irgun43@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:EpyVb.16562$F23.14332@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4026aaf4@news.highway1.com.au...
I am not sure you are right about the Germans. Neither am I sure
about the Palestinians.
But I would like to know what the average Palestinian thinks.
Pity
it is impossible to find out.
Unlike the Israelis, who have no problem with polling.
Izzy
Dear Iskandar,
Speculation is dangerous to Israel; facts count.
Let's say 30% are our deadly enemies. That's enough to
keep the pot
boiling for the next 80 years and a danger to the State.
It's a total waste of time to feel sorry for those who
want to kill
you and dangerous to the community
irgun43
It is this attitude which alienates people who might otherwise be
more sympathetic towards Israel.
I feel sorry for the Israelis who suffer from terrorist attacks. I
also feel sorry for the Palestinians who have lost good jobs in
Israel because of those attacks.
I do not believe this is the fault of the Palestinian people.
It has been caused by a small group of Arab fanatics, have created
misery for fifty-five years.
Many Palestinians hate Israel, because Israel is the proximate cause
of their misery. However, I have no doubt that some see one step
back, and know who their real enemy is.
Unfortunately they have no choice but to keep their mouths shut.
I am quite prepared to be abused by both sides. I am an old man who
has not only studied history, but lived through it, residing in many
different countries and cultures. I have a clear recollection of
events from 1937 on. It is hardly surprising that I differ with the
young whippernsappers on a number of subjects.
Regards,
Izzy
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| User: "irgun43" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
08 Feb 2004 06:38:44 PM |
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"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4026cad9$1@news.highway1.com.au...
It is this attitude which alienates people who might otherwise be
more sympathetic towards Israel.
Dear Iskandar,
The goal of Israel is survival and the protection of the people, not
win popularity contests.
This desire to be loved is a serious weakness.
Did anyone on the arab side ever express the sympathy, the ideas you
have? Zero.
No, the script our enemies set up is: Arabs can kill at will and be
excused , Jews to be victims and blamed.
Please, after the struggle is won, we'll have time to cry
corocodile tears, not before
When your family is dead and mutilated, what comfort is it to
say this was done by a small group of Arab fanatics? Who filled the Arab
armies, the terror groups from 1920 to the present, unempoyed Norwegians?
Give me a break. It's all there in front of you and you fail to see the
threat. It does no good to hide one's head in the sand. After the vicious
ones are eliminated, then we can deal with the more passive remainder as in
WWII.
Age is not an excuse - Begin and Ben Gurion in their 60's were
fiercer than some people today in theri 20's
irgun43
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
08 Feb 2004 07:08:16 PM |
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"irgun43" <irgun43@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:oEAVb.16736$F23.1566@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4026cad9$1@news.highway1.com.au...
It is this attitude which alienates people who might otherwise
be
more sympathetic towards Israel.
Dear Iskandar,
The goal of Israel is survival and the protection of the
people, not
win popularity contests.
This desire to be loved is a serious weakness.
Did anyone on the arab side ever express the sympathy, the
ideas you
have? Zero.
No, the script our enemies set up is: Arabs can kill at
will and be
excused , Jews to be victims and blamed.
Please, after the struggle is won, we'll have time to
cry
corocodile tears, not before
When your family is dead and mutilated, what comfort
is it to
say this was done by a small group of Arab fanatics? Who filled
the Arab
armies, the terror groups from 1920 to the present, unempoyed
Norwegians?
Give me a break. It's all there in front of you and you fail to
see the
threat. It does no good to hide one's head in the sand. After the
vicious
ones are eliminated, then we can deal with the more passive
remainder as in
WWII.
Age is not an excuse - Begin and Ben Gurion in their 60's
were
fiercer than some people today in theri 20's
irgun43
There is not the slightest question in my mind that this entire
human tragedy is the result of Arab fundamentalism and
intransigence.
However, I take exception to the presumption that only Israelis
suffer. The average Palestinian leads a grim life, even though the
average Palestinian has no role in terrorist activities.
The average German was complicit in the rise of Hitler, but not in
the Holocaust. Indeed, the average man everywhere does little more
than try to survive and look after his family. This seems so obvious
I wonder why I am typing this out.
I took exception to this:
It's a total waste of time to feel sorry for those who want to
kill
you and dangerous to the community
If you do not understand what motivates your enemies it is that much
more difficult to deal with them. I have no problem with the Israeli
hard line against terrorists. I do have a problem with those who,
like yourself, appear to condemn all Palestinians.
Izzy
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| User: "irgun43" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
08 Feb 2004 08:35:17 PM |
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"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4026dd7d@news.highway1.com.au...
There is not the slightest question in my mind that this entire
human tragedy is the result of Arab fundamentalism and
intransigence.
However, I take exception to the presumption that only Israelis
suffer. The average Palestinian leads a grim life, even though the
average Palestinian has no role in terrorist activities.
Dear Iskandar,
During WWII, the average German, Japanese, Italian, Rumanian lead a
grim life. So what?
Would that be cause for the war to stop? No. Keep your eye on the big
picture. This is a war to the death as th e Arabs explain it. It's dangerous
to think otherwise.
If you do not understand what motivates your enemies it is that much
more difficult to deal with them.
Oh sir, I understand fully well what motivates the arabs. That's why it's
important to go for the jugular instead of being sensitive to their
motivation. One may be compassionate to the survivors but not to the enemy
during war.
irgun43
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
08 Feb 2004 09:31:55 PM |
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"irgun43" <irgun43@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:FlCVb.20352$uM2.19104@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4026dd7d@news.highway1.com.au...
There is not the slightest question in my mind that this entire
human tragedy is the result of Arab fundamentalism and
intransigence.
However, I take exception to the presumption that only Israelis
suffer. The average Palestinian leads a grim life, even though
the
average Palestinian has no role in terrorist activities.
Dear Iskandar,
During WWII, the average German, Japanese, Italian,
Rumanian lead a
grim life. So what?
Would that be cause for the war to stop? No. Keep your eye on
the big
picture. This is a war to the death as th e Arabs explain it. It's
dangerous
to think otherwise.
If you do not understand what motivates your enemies it is that
much
more difficult to deal with them.
Oh sir, I understand fully well what motivates the arabs. That's
why it's
important to go for the jugular instead of being sensitive to
their
motivation. One may be compassionate to the survivors but not to
the enemy
during war.
irgun43
It is clear that nothing I say will influence you. I think Sharon
has more compassion than you.
Izzy
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| User: "irgun43" |
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| Title: Re: Will Israel remain a democracy? |
08 Feb 2004 10:45:18 PM |
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"Iskandar Baharuddin" <brengsek@mcpc.net.au> wrote in message
news:4026ff27@news.highway1.com.au...
It is clear that nothing I say will influence you. I think Sharon
has more compassion than you.
Izzy
Dear Iskandar,
The difference between Ariel Sharon and me is that he likes the
arabs. The reason he does is that he was born in the Land of Israel in a
kibbutz. He was lucky that he wass born a free man in his own land. Yet,
he's the most demonized Jew of all; a Jew with the gn that they can't bully
or threaten with loss of favor.
Those of us born outside the land know full well the viciousness in
the hearts of some of our neighbors. You can read their messages here. You
correspond with them, giving them learned citations form history and reason.
Can you change their minds? They want you on your knees beggging for scraps
from the table. While you're eating their scraps in australia, some go
around thinking how you're plotting to take over their kangaroo- infested
country. Please, talk to me when the war is over.
irgun43
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