| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jason Spaceman" |
| Date: |
19 Mar 2005 01:00:55 AM |
| Object: |
WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Before Hitler came for the Jews and the gypsies, he first came after
the mentally handicapped. He offered this rationale for euthanasia:
"In nature, there is no pity for the lesser creatures when they are
destroyed so that the fittest may survive. Going against nature brings
ruin to man. It is only Jewish impudence to demand that we overcome
nature." Hitler, who was a committed evolutionist and applied the
ruthless principals of natural selection to the human species, opposed
"artificial" means of keeping the infirm alive. The species was
strengthened when its weakest constituents perished, just as nature
decreed.
Charles Darwin expressed his own belief in stronger and more feeble
parts of the human family when he famously wrote, "The more civilized
so-called Caucasian races have beaten the Turkish hollow in the
struggle for existence. Looking to the world at no very distant date,
what an endless number of the lower races will have been eliminated by
the higher civilized races throughout the world."
Thankfully, the United States does not derive its ethics from Darwin,
but from Sinai. We do not believe in the quality of life, but in its
sanctity. Since Hitler was the enemy of life, he despised not just
Judaism, but Christianity, which in turn embraced the biblical idea of
the infinite value of every human life and how each individual,
regardless of the degree of brain cognition, was possessed of the
divine.
---------------------------------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43381
J. Spaceman
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| User: "Dale" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 03:15:20 PM |
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"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com...
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43381
From the article:
---
How the United States could today devalue the life of the infirm by removing
a brain-damaged woman's feeding tube, and unwittingly ally itself with the
euthanasia program of the history's foremost monster, should send shivers
down the spine of every American.
---
Are these people _addicted_ to the Straw Man Fallacy? The ethics of removal
of nutrition from a patient in a persistent vegetative state have already
been dealt, and such removal has been common practice for years. For most
people this is not a question of euthanasia for the infirm, but of letting
go of someone who is already dead in most respects.
The rest of the article is rife with such Straw Men, as we have come to
expect from creationist and other fundamentalist arguments. One has to
wonder if it is some kind of willful self-deception, or if it's a habit of
the mind, or if indeed these people are altogether incapable of rigorous
reasoning.
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| User: "Lt. Kizhe Catson" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
21 Mar 2005 08:50:33 AM |
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Dale wrote:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com...
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43381
From the article:
---
How the United States could today devalue the life of the infirm by removing
a brain-damaged woman's feeding tube, and unwittingly ally itself with the
euthanasia program of the history's foremost monster, should send shivers
down the spine of every American.
---
Are these people _addicted_ to the Straw Man Fallacy? The ethics of removal
of nutrition from a patient in a persistent vegetative state have already
been dealt, and such removal has been common practice for years. For most
people this is not a question of euthanasia for the infirm, but of letting
go of someone who is already dead in most respects.
The take-home lesson for the rest of us is that, when you make a will
(and anyone with assets and/or family responsibilities absolutely
should), you should also have the lawyer draw up:
- Power of Attorney for Care, so that there is no doubt as to who has
the right to make this sort of decision for you.
- Advance Medical Directives, ie. what level of intervention you want
made on your behalf in various circumstances. This both gives some
guidance to your substitute decision-maker, and should pretty much
squelch potential disputes from other family members (to say nothing of
interfering religious and legislative do-gooders). That's gotta carry
more weight than: "One night we were watching a movie, and she told me
that.....".
Mind you, given the current "culture of life" climate (which is actually
very selective about who it wishes to grant life to), I'm not so sure an
AMD would be sacrosanct. This silly rabbi implies they shouldn't be:
"And even if Terri Schiavo expressly wanted to die, does that mean we
should kill her? Dr. Kevorkian is sitting in prison for the rest of his
life precisely because he killed people who wished to die. How is this
different?"
The rest of the article is rife with such Straw Men, as we have come to
expect from creationist and other fundamentalist arguments. One has to
wonder if it is some kind of willful self-deception, or if it's a habit of
the mind, or if indeed these people are altogether incapable of rigorous
reasoning.
-- Kizhe
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| User: "Peacenik" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
22 Mar 2005 09:20:19 AM |
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"Lt. Kizhe Catson" <lt.kizhe@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:423EDF39.5010802@gmail.com...
This silly rabbi implies they shouldn't be:
"And even if Terri Schiavo expressly wanted to die, does that mean we
should kill her? Dr. Kevorkian is sitting in prison for the rest of his
life precisely because he killed people who wished to die. How is this
different?"
Now THAT'S what I call begging the question!!!
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
21 Mar 2005 10:58:00 AM |
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In our last episode <423EDF39.5010802@gmail.com>, Lt. Kizhe Catson
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
Dale wrote:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com...
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43381
From the article:
---
How the United States could today devalue the life of the infirm by
removing a brain-damaged woman's feeding tube, and unwittingly ally
itself with the euthanasia program of the history's foremost monster,
should send shivers down the spine of every American.
---
Are these people _addicted_ to the Straw Man Fallacy? The ethics of
removal of nutrition from a patient in a persistent vegetative state
have already been dealt, and such removal has been common practice for
years. For most people this is not a question of euthanasia for the
infirm, but of letting go of someone who is already dead in most
respects.
The take-home lesson for the rest of us is that, when you make a will...
Be sure, if you live in Texas, to have been born into a wealthy family or
carry very, very good insurance as then Governor Bush signed into a law
allowing hospitals to pull the plug on you when you run out of cash...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Group website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
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| User: "Alexander" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 06:31:39 AM |
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"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Before Hitler came for the Jews and the gypsies, he first came after
the mentally handicapped. He offered this rationale for euthanasia:
"In nature, there is no pity for the lesser creatures when they are
destroyed so that the fittest may survive. Going against nature brings
ruin to man. It is only Jewish impudence to demand that we overcome
nature." Hitler, who was a committed evolutionist and applied the
ruthless principals of natural selection to the human species, opposed
"artificial" means of keeping the infirm alive. The species was
strengthened when its weakest constituents perished, just as nature
decreed.
Charles Darwin expressed his own belief in stronger and more feeble
parts of the human family when he famously wrote, "The more civilized
so-called Caucasian races have beaten the Turkish hollow in the
struggle for existence. Looking to the world at no very distant date,
what an endless number of the lower races will have been eliminated by
the higher civilized races throughout the world."
Thankfully, the United States does not derive its ethics from Darwin,
but from Sinai. We do not believe in the quality of life, but in its
sanctity. Since Hitler was the enemy of life, he despised not just
Judaism, but Christianity, which in turn embraced the biblical idea of
the infinite value of every human life and how each individual,
regardless of the degree of brain cognition, was possessed of the
divine.
---------------------------------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43381
Strange that Hitler only mentions 'nature' in these quotes - not Darwin or
evolution. The notion of superiority between 'races' was endemic well
before Charlie boy popped onto the scene. Gobineau's 'The Inequality of
Human Races' explicitly confirmed the Europeans as the direct descendants of
the Adamic line in Genesis in 1850. Morton had completed 'Crania Americana'
back in 1839 and handy guides for schoolboys were being produced in England
by 'Parkinsons' neatly categorising the 'races' as White (at the top of
course) then Yellow, Brown, Red and coming in last you had 'black'. White
European 'teutons' were perhaps unsurprisingly put top of the list.
There was also a movement within the UK during Victorian England called
'muscular Christianity' which promoted the idea of being fit and healthy for
the good of the Lord (and Queen and Country of course) and was essentially
racist in notion. Similar movements could be seen in Germany and Austria
which had nothing to do with Darwin (the various early Bunds and
Armenenschaft) but had a mixture of religiously motivated racist precepts
fuelled by an odd mixture of nationalism, romanticism for a pre-industrial
era and deep hatred for other cultures (especially in Austria). There's
nary a mention of Darwin by these groups.
As ever, the creationist creed has oversimplified an issue that deserves
closer inspection rather than the usual cross eyed drooling and
polarisation.
J. Spaceman
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| User: "scooter" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 08:01:31 AM |
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Alexander wrote:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Before Hitler came for the Jews and the gypsies, he first came
after
the mentally handicapped. He offered this rationale for euthanasia:
"In nature, there is no pity for the lesser creatures when they are
destroyed so that the fittest may survive. Going against nature
brings
ruin to man. It is only Jewish impudence to demand that we overcome
nature." Hitler, who was a committed evolutionist and applied the
ruthless principals of natural selection to the human species,
opposed
"artificial" means of keeping the infirm alive. The species was
strengthened when its weakest constituents perished, just as nature
decreed.
Charles Darwin expressed his own belief in stronger and more feeble
parts of the human family when he famously wrote, "The more
civilized
so-called Caucasian races have beaten the Turkish hollow in the
struggle for existence. Looking to the world at no very distant
date,
what an endless number of the lower races will have been eliminated
by
the higher civilized races throughout the world."
Thankfully, the United States does not derive its ethics from
Darwin,
but from Sinai. We do not believe in the quality of life, but in
its
sanctity. Since Hitler was the enemy of life, he despised not just
Judaism, but Christianity, which in turn embraced the biblical idea
of
the infinite value of every human life and how each individual,
regardless of the degree of brain cognition, was possessed of the
divine.
---------------------------------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43381
Strange that Hitler only mentions 'nature' in these quotes - not
Darwin or
evolution. The notion of superiority between 'races' was endemic
well
before Charlie boy popped onto the scene. Gobineau's 'The Inequality
of
Human Races' explicitly confirmed the Europeans as the direct
descendants of
the Adamic line in Genesis in 1850. Morton had completed 'Crania
Americana'
back in 1839 and handy guides for schoolboys were being produced in
England
by 'Parkinsons' neatly categorising the 'races' as White (at the top
of
course) then Yellow, Brown, Red and coming in last you had 'black'.
White
European 'teutons' were perhaps unsurprisingly put top of the list.
There was also a movement within the UK during Victorian England
called
'muscular Christianity' which promoted the idea of being fit and
healthy for
the good of the Lord (and Queen and Country of course) and was
essentially
racist in notion. Similar movements could be seen in Germany and
Austria
which had nothing to do with Darwin (the various early Bunds and
Armenenschaft) but had a mixture of religiously motivated racist
precepts
fuelled by an odd mixture of nationalism, romanticism for a
pre-industrial
era and deep hatred for other cultures (especially in Austria).
There's
nary a mention of Darwin by these groups.
As ever, the creationist creed has oversimplified an issue that
deserves
closer inspection rather than the usual cross eyed drooling and
polarisation.
Good morning, Alex. Thanks for that bit of historical backround and
concise writing. I have to say that it is utterly amazing the ways in
which these creetinists attempt to ascribe racist constructions to
evolution. It is especially haneous given the fact that it was/is
precisely religious power that justified and enforced those racist
notions.
KW
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| User: "Alexander" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 05:38:34 PM |
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"scooter" <kwills@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:1111240891.658313.236120@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Alexander wrote:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Before Hitler came for the Jews and the gypsies, he first came
after
the mentally handicapped. He offered this rationale for euthanasia:
"In nature, there is no pity for the lesser creatures when they are
destroyed so that the fittest may survive. Going against nature
brings
ruin to man. It is only Jewish impudence to demand that we overcome
nature." Hitler, who was a committed evolutionist and applied the
ruthless principals of natural selection to the human species,
opposed
"artificial" means of keeping the infirm alive. The species was
strengthened when its weakest constituents perished, just as nature
decreed.
Charles Darwin expressed his own belief in stronger and more feeble
parts of the human family when he famously wrote, "The more
civilized
so-called Caucasian races have beaten the Turkish hollow in the
struggle for existence. Looking to the world at no very distant
date,
what an endless number of the lower races will have been eliminated
by
the higher civilized races throughout the world."
Thankfully, the United States does not derive its ethics from
Darwin,
but from Sinai. We do not believe in the quality of life, but in
its
sanctity. Since Hitler was the enemy of life, he despised not just
Judaism, but Christianity, which in turn embraced the biblical idea
of
the infinite value of every human life and how each individual,
regardless of the degree of brain cognition, was possessed of the
divine.
---------------------------------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43381
Strange that Hitler only mentions 'nature' in these quotes - not
Darwin or
evolution. The notion of superiority between 'races' was endemic
well
before Charlie boy popped onto the scene. Gobineau's 'The Inequality
of
Human Races' explicitly confirmed the Europeans as the direct
descendants of
the Adamic line in Genesis in 1850. Morton had completed 'Crania
Americana'
back in 1839 and handy guides for schoolboys were being produced in
England
by 'Parkinsons' neatly categorising the 'races' as White (at the top
of
course) then Yellow, Brown, Red and coming in last you had 'black'.
White
European 'teutons' were perhaps unsurprisingly put top of the list.
There was also a movement within the UK during Victorian England
called
'muscular Christianity' which promoted the idea of being fit and
healthy for
the good of the Lord (and Queen and Country of course) and was
essentially
racist in notion. Similar movements could be seen in Germany and
Austria
which had nothing to do with Darwin (the various early Bunds and
Armenenschaft) but had a mixture of religiously motivated racist
precepts
fuelled by an odd mixture of nationalism, romanticism for a
pre-industrial
era and deep hatred for other cultures (especially in Austria).
There's
nary a mention of Darwin by these groups.
As ever, the creationist creed has oversimplified an issue that
deserves
closer inspection rather than the usual cross eyed drooling and
polarisation.
Good morning, Alex.
Morning? I have no fram of reference for this - perhaos you are some sort
of deviant?
Thanks for that bit of historical backround and
concise writing. I have to say that it is utterly amazing the ways in
which these creetinists attempt to ascribe racist constructions to
evolution. It is especially haneous given the fact that it was/is
precisely religious power that justified and enforced those racist
notions.
Yup - tis true ... just waiting for the hole they've dug to get deeper.
Seriously ... we have loads of bods here ready to tear into the YEC crew and
history is wide open - they should go for it
KW
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| User: "scooter" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 06:38:48 PM |
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Alexander wrote:
"scooter" <kwills@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:1111240891.658313.236120@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Alexander wrote:
Good morning, Alex.
Morning? I have no fram of reference for this - perhaos you are some
sort
of deviant?
Deviance is a moral value too...heh.
Thanks for that bit of historical backround and
concise writing. I have to say that it is utterly amazing the ways
in
which these creetinists attempt to ascribe racist constructions to
evolution. It is especially haneous given the fact that it was/is
precisely religious power that justified and enforced those racist
notions.
Yup - tis true ... just waiting for the hole they've dug to get
deeper.
Seriously ... we have loads of bods here ready to tear into the YEC
crew and
history is wide open - they should go for it.
God bless our army and our airplanes...we bomb thee in the name of the
lord.
KW
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| User: "Homer Sapiens" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 02:57:28 AM |
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From the article:
"... Christianity, which in turn embraced the biblical idea of
the infinite value of every human life and how each individual,
regardless of the degree of brain cognition, was possessed of the
divine."
I hesitate to cast generalized stones at Christianity. There are many,
many faces to this religion. Some are loving, giving, and offer the
best of humanity. But, hey, other faces of Christianity started the
stoning first!
I guess, it is easy to see flaws in everyone else especially when one
looks in the mirror and the face looking back is imagined to be God. I
will offer here just a few of the skeletons in the Christian closet
that should humble those living in glass houses.
1208 Pope Innocent III declared a crusade to destroy the
Albigenses in France. When Beziers fell the pope commanded, "Kill them
all. God will know His Own. Thousands were slaughtered.
1252 Pope Innocent IV authorized torture during the Holy
Inquisition to stamp out heresy.
1349 Christians concluded the Bubonic pledge was caused by Jews
poising wells. 6,000 Jews were killed in one day at Mainz, Germany
1484 Pope Innocent VIII issued a bull declaring the reality of
witches and initiated the accusation, torture, and execution of witches
all over Europe. All costs of investigation, trial, and execution of
witches were borne by the accused or her relatives, including per diems
for private detectives, torturers and tar. The members of the tribunal
for each witch burned received a bonus, and remaining property was
divided between Church and State.
1520 William Tyndale translated the New Testament into English so
people could read the Bible and form their own, independent religious
views. He was captured, garroted, and burned at the stake by the
Catholic Church.
1562 The slaughter of Huguenots (French Protestants) by Catholics at
Sens, Burgundy in 1562 occurred at the beginning of more than thirty
years of religious strife between French Protestants and Catholics.
These wars produced numerous atrocities. The worst was the notorious
St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre in Paris, August 24, 1572. Thousands
of Huguenots were butchered by Roman Catholic mobs. Although an
accommodation between the two sides was sealed in 1598 by the Edict of
Nantes, religious privileges of Huguenots eroded during the seventeenth
century and were extinguished in 1685 by the revocation of the Edict.
1618 Catholic Emperor Ferdinand II decided to eradicate Protestantism
entirely, resulting in the 30 year war that left millions dead.
1659 Beginning in 1659 Virginia enacted anti-Quaker laws, including the
death penalty for refractory Quakers. Jefferson surmised that "if no
capital execution took place here, as did in New England, it was not
owing to the moderation of the church, or the spirit of the
legislature."
1660 Mary Dyer (d. 1660) first ran afoul of Massachusetts authorities
for supporting theological dissenter Anne Hutchinson. As a result Dyer
and her family were forced to move to Rhode Island in 1638. Converted
to Quakerism in England in the 1650s, Dyer returned to New England and
was three times arrested and banished from Massachusetts for spreading
Quaker principles. Returning to Massachusetts a fourth time, she was
hanged on June 1, 1660.
1690 In Massachusetts 20 witches were killed and 150 others
imprisoned.
I apologize for not proceeding onward with the Indian massacres
justified because they were "just savages" or how many African
Americans were dealt with by that Christian Boys Club, the KKK.
However, it is very late and I must sleep now.
Please do not infer from the above that I think all Christians are
evil. I do not. However, when presented with a "Holier than Thou"
attack, I felt it appropriate to remind that ideas do not kill people,
people kill people.
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| User: "Stuart" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 05:07:13 AM |
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Homer Sapiens wrote:
1660 Mary Dyer (d. 1660) first ran afoul of Massachusetts
authorities
for supporting theological dissenter Anne Hutchinson. As a result
Dyer
and her family were forced to move to Rhode Island in 1638. Converted
to Quakerism in England in the 1650s, Dyer returned to New England
and
was three times arrested and banished from Massachusetts for
spreading
Quaker principles. Returning to Massachusetts a fourth time, she was
hanged on June 1, 1660.
Some people don't know when to quit.
Stuart
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| User: "Homer Sapiens" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 10:04:08 AM |
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Stuart wrote:
"Some people don't know when to quit."
Stuart
You are exactly right Stuart. Some people don't know when to quit. That
is obvious from the article that launched this entire thread.
Tell me Stuart if anything I posted isn't true. Unlike the original
article trying to smear Darwin in an attempt to validate God, did I
misstate any facts or make any false accusations? In an attempt to be
even-handed at the end of my post (which you snipped off in response" I
do not attribute any of these horrible acts to Christianity. Indeed,
Christianity itself has been the victim of abuse by groups of
narrow-minded, dominion-oriented, bible-thumpers throughout history.
Christianity has also been practiced with the heart and soul of what is
best in man-kind as well. Many Christian leaders believe the theocratic
right is an aberration of Christianity. And the movement is anything
but conservative. These practitioners have also been dealt a
disservice.
My one-sided statements should not be read as if I have no respect or
broader opinion of Christianity or religion as a whole. Man is a social
animal and as such even evolutionary theory would predict that rules
and organizational behavior that served to benefit the group would
potentially constitute an evolutionary stable strategy (i.e., group
selection accomplished through selection pressures acting still on
individuals but regulated by the interaction of that individual with
other members of the group). Group altruism is apparent in the social
structure of humans. Religion may be a way to ritualize this behavior
and propagate the socio-behavioral structure over time. Cultural
controls over evolutionary processes are still poorly understood.
However, conceptually, I have no problem comprehending the positive
influence that religion might play on group dynamics.
However, as is common with most things within social systems, there
dwells opportunity for abuse. Embedded in these social rules are issues
of politics, power and control. This tends to attract a selfish, an
unseemly lot. This tendency for selfish-oriented corruption to migrate
toward politics is the motivating reason behind the separation of
church and state clause in the constitution. Noone knew better than
Madison, Jefferson and others that politics tends to corrupt the
church. This "wall of separation" is meant to protect the church from
political corruption. Political control is what the fundamentalist
IDiots are focusing on and they have linked hands with the theocratic
right to accomplish this task. They feel that God has ordained them
alone to have political control!
In "The Changing of the Guard, Biblical Principles for Political
Action" by George Grant (Executive Director of Coral Ridge Ministries
for many years)he states :
"Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy
responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ -- to have dominion
in civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and
godliness."
"But it is dominion we are after. Not just a voice."
"It is dominion we are after. Not just influence."
"It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time."
"It is dominion we are after."
"World conquest. That's what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish.
We must win the world with the power of the Gospel. And we must never
settle for anything less... Thus, Christian politics has as its primary
intent the conquest of the land -- of men, families, institutions,
bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ. (pp.
50-51)"
My harsh and seemingly aggressive posts are only meant to provide
balance in the universe. They appear one-sided only because they are
meant to balance the one-sided polar opposite statements that prompted
them. Kind of a tit-fer-tat, I would be more than happy (as matter of
fact, I would be ecstatic!) if that small minority of religious zealots
that are behind the wedge movement would practice their superstitions
in an unobtrusive manner. I don't think these are bad people just
horribly mislead. Normally, I would ignore them and go on with life.
However, apathy from others feeds their movement. Pat Robertson wrote
in "The Millennium" (1990), "With the apathy that exists today, a
small, well-organized minority can influence the selection of
candidates to an astonishing degree." This has become a key organizing
principle of the theocratic right.
In "America's Providential History" (Beliles and McDowell, 1989), a
popular textbook for Christian schools and the Christian homeschool
movement, the authors state, "The apathy of other Americans can become
a blessing and advantage to Christians". They continue, "If just 10% of
all Christians in America today woke up and realized how easy it is,
got involved consistently for the long haul, it would not take long to
reform America completely (p.266)"
I will be more than glad to quit. I feel that the time I spend
addressing this issue is really an unecessary waste of time. However, I
will remain apathetic no more. As long as these IDiots are trying to
take over American politics and the science classrooms in this country,
I will not back down or succumb to the will of zealots when they
instigate and provoke with their ignorant nonsense. I have a young
daughter that attends a public school and you better believe I take an
interest in the curriculum and what they are teaching her. The
religious fundamentalists that want to attack science and interject
their supernatural nonsense into everyone elses lives are the one's
that are driving the car. I'm just along for the ride. "Are we there
yet?"
To Harshman, Gans, Mercer, Wilkins, Sullivan and even Pitman among
others I apologize. Sorry about the long rant. There are multiple
levels of involvement in this issue and some just push my buttons.
Thank you Sean for keeping the conversation at a higher level than
most. You may share a common motivation with this movement but at least
one can hold something of a debate with you. However, you are
outnumbered in this ID group by a less sophisticated element that
unfortunately also represents a larger voting block.
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| User: "Mike Dworetsky" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 10:23:43 AM |
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"Homer Sapiens" <ejsparks@tvscable.com> wrote in message
news:1111246796.648141.140750@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Stuart wrote:
"Some people don't know when to quit."
Stuart
You are exactly right Stuart. Some people don't know when to quit. That
is obvious from the article that launched this entire thread.
Homer, calm down, Stuart seems to have been making a macabre joke about Mary
Dyer's persistence, rather than objecting to anything you said.
I know it's pretty grim out there, but sometimes a little humour can lighten
us all up a bit.
Tell me Stuart if anything I posted isn't true. Unlike the original
article trying to smear Darwin in an attempt to validate God, did I
misstate any facts or make any false accusations? In an attempt to be
even-handed at the end of my post (which you snipped off in response" I
do not attribute any of these horrible acts to Christianity. Indeed,
Christianity itself has been the victim of abuse by groups of
narrow-minded, dominion-oriented, bible-thumpers throughout history.
Christianity has also been practiced with the heart and soul of what is
best in man-kind as well. Many Christian leaders believe the theocratic
right is an aberration of Christianity. And the movement is anything
but conservative. These practitioners have also been dealt a
disservice.
[rest of rant deleted]
--
Mike Dworetsky
(Remove "pants" spamblock to send e-mail)
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| User: "Homer Sapiens" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 11:48:00 AM |
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I apologize because I was mistaken about Stuart's post. "Sorry, Stuart
Sorry to the whole Hee Haw hang here at T.O.". The only part of his
post that came through on my server prior to his comments was "Homer
sapiens wrote:". This was then followed with no additional text by his
comments. This led me to believe that he was referencing my entire
post. After reading Kermit and Mike's posts I opened up "show options"
beside Stuarts username and indeed I have greatly misinterpreted the
intent of his post.
I also regret that I let my grouchy side show. I have lived my entire
life in the heart of America's Bible Belt and I have seen both sides of
Christianity, i.e., the good and the bad. I usually simply ignore the
negative for the sake of appreciation and tolerance favoring the good.
Maybe its an artifact of the recent media attention on the ID movement,
my focus on understanding the last presdential election issues
(religious voter turnout for mostly destructive reasons such as
anti-tem cell research, anti-gay marriage, etc.), combined with perhaps
too much time on T.O. but I have been overwhelmed with negativity
coming from the theocratic right. Its like the bully on the school
playground. You go out of your way to avoid him but when face-to-face
then its time to rumble.
Once again, Stuart I apologize. To everyone else I promise I'll try to
be more optimistic and less grouchy. After all, "there is a grandeur in
this view of life".
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 10:22:23 AM |
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Homer Sapiens wrote:
Stuart wrote:
"Some people don't know when to quit."
Stuart
You are exactly right Stuart. Some people don't know when to quit.
That
is obvious from the article that launched this entire thread.
Tell me Stuart if anything I posted isn't true. Unlike the original
article trying to smear Darwin in an attempt to validate God, did I
misstate any facts or make any false accusations? In an attempt to be
even-handed at the end of my post (which you snipped off in response"
I
do not attribute any of these horrible acts to Christianity.
<snip articulate but grouchy post>
Ummm, Homer, do you think Stuart's remark was about *you? He retained
and responded to:
"Mary Dyer (d. 1660) first ran afoul of Massachusetts authorities for
supporting theological dissenter Anne Hutchinson. As a result Dyer and
her family were forced to move to Rhode Island in 1638. Converted to
Quakerism in England in the 1650s, Dyer returned to New England and was
three times arrested and banished from Massachusetts for spreading
Quaker principles. Returning to Massachusetts a fourth time, she was
hanged on June 1, 1660."
See? Poor Mary came back four times to a hostile environment. And it
killed her.
Kermit
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| User: "Emma Pease" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 12:48:11 PM |
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In article <1111222648.219207.10390@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Homer Sapiens wrote:
From the article:
"... Christianity, which in turn embraced the biblical idea of
the infinite value of every human life and how each individual,
regardless of the degree of brain cognition, was possessed of the
divine."
I hesitate to cast generalized stones at Christianity. There are many,
many faces to this religion. Some are loving, giving, and offer the
best of humanity. But, hey, other faces of Christianity started the
stoning first!
....
1660 Mary Dyer (d. 1660) first ran afoul of Massachusetts authorities
for supporting theological dissenter Anne Hutchinson. As a result Dyer
and her family were forced to move to Rhode Island in 1638. Converted
to Quakerism in England in the 1650s, Dyer returned to New England and
was three times arrested and banished from Massachusetts for spreading
Quaker principles. Returning to Massachusetts a fourth time, she was
hanged on June 1, 1660.
Dyer was one of four Quakers executed by Massachusetts for being
Quakers in 1659/60.
1690 In Massachusetts 20 witches were killed and 150 others imprisoned.
20 people accused of being witches. It is unlikely they were witches
in any sense of the word.
Emma
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
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| User: "Frank J Warner" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 07:04:58 AM |
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In article <g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Before Hitler
I would like to take this opportunity to invoke Godwin's Law.
-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
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| User: "Secular Fundamentalist" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 07:39:38 AM |
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Frank J Warner wrote:
In article <g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Before Hitler
I would like to take this opportunity to invoke Godwin's Law.
Too late: Mornington Crescent!
Oh! Sorry! *that* Godwin's law.
--
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N.
aa #2208
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| User: "rich hammett" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 10:49:01 AM |
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In talk.origins Secular Fundamentalist <moc.turtle@eltrut.com> sanoi, hitaasti kuin hämähäkki:
Frank J Warner wrote:
In article <g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Before Hitler
I would like to take this opportunity to invoke Godwin's Law.
Too late: Mornington Crescent!
You can't possibly jump three termini and square the
Circle Line without involving at least one station from
the Jubilee Line. I vote that that's a clear violation,
and you lose two turns.
rich
Oh! Sorry! *that* Godwin's law.
--
-to reply, it's hot not warm
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world;
\ than the pride that divides
/ when a colorful rag is unfurled."
.
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| User: "Secular Fundamentalist" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 11:39:17 AM |
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rich hammett wrote:
In talk.origins Secular Fundamentalist <moc.turtle@eltrut.com> sanoi, hitaasti kuin hämähäkki:
Frank J Warner wrote:
In article <g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Before Hitler
I would like to take this opportunity to invoke Godwin's Law.
Too late: Mornington Crescent!
You can't possibly jump three termini and square the
Circle Line without involving at least one station from
the Jubilee Line. I vote that that's a clear violation,
and you lose two turns.
Aren't we using Crabbit's rule?
--
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N.
aa #2208
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| User: "Alexander" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 05:35:25 PM |
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"Secular Fundamentalist" <moc.turtle@eltrut.com> wrote in message
news:uIidnWxGTfsk_qHfRVnysw@brightview.com...
rich hammett wrote:
In talk.origins Secular Fundamentalist <moc.turtle@eltrut.com> sanoi,
hitaasti kuin hämähäkki:
Frank J Warner wrote:
In article <g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Before Hitler
I would like to take this opportunity to invoke Godwin's Law.
Too late: Mornington Crescent!
You can't possibly jump three termini and square the
Circle Line without involving at least one station from
the Jubilee Line. I vote that that's a clear violation,
and you lose two turns.
Aren't we using Crabbit's rule?
Amateurs ... you can't lose turns from jubilee ... double bluff and blind
turn from Islington. Straight bind to Bakerloo then Mornington on five
But I'd have thought that was obvious
--
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N.
aa #2208
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| User: "rich hammett" |
|
| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 06:27:05 PM |
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|
In talk.origins Alexander <alexander.hudson@virgin.net> sanoi, hitaasti kuin hämähäkki:
"Secular Fundamentalist" <moc.turtle@eltrut.com> wrote in message
news:uIidnWxGTfsk_qHfRVnysw@brightview.com...
rich hammett wrote:
In talk.origins Secular Fundamentalist <moc.turtle@eltrut.com> sanoi,
hitaasti kuin hämähäkki:
Frank J Warner wrote:
In article <g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Before Hitler
I would like to take this opportunity to invoke Godwin's Law.
Too late: Mornington Crescent!
You can't possibly jump three termini and square the
Circle Line without involving at least one station from
the Jubilee Line. I vote that that's a clear violation,
and you lose two turns.
Aren't we using Crabbit's rule?
Amateurs ... you can't lose turns from jubilee ... double bluff and blind
turn from Islington. Straight bind to Bakerloo then Mornington on five
But I'd have thought that was obvious
Sorry, I haven't seen a tube map since 2001, and I was
playing from memory.
rich
--
-to reply, it's hot not warm
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world;
\ than the pride that divides
/ when a colorful rag is unfurled."
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
21 Mar 2005 10:56:12 AM |
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In our last episode <g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com>, Jason
Spaceman pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
Thankfully, the United States does not derive its ethics from Darwin, but
from Sinai. We do not believe in the quality of life, but in its sanctity.
That must explain the slaughter of natives, the enslavement of Africans...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Group website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
.
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
21 Mar 2005 04:47:14 PM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:x8mdnbMsutwxYaPfRVn-tg@megapath.net...
In our last episode <g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com>, Jason
Spaceman pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
Thankfully, the United States does not derive its ethics from Darwin,
but
from Sinai. We do not believe in the quality of life, but in its
sanctity.
That must explain the slaughter of natives, the enslavement of Africans...
And, the refusal to hire people due to their being Catholic, Jewish or
Black. The refusal to educate women or give them their rights as
citizens...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Group website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
21 Mar 2005 05:16:11 PM |
|
|
In our last episode <a8GdnZkLEcF-06LfRVn-tg@comcast.com>, Michelle Malkin
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:x8mdnbMsutwxYaPfRVn-tg@megapath.net...
In our last episode <g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com>, Jason
Spaceman pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
Thankfully, the United States does not derive its ethics from Darwin,
but
from Sinai. We do not believe in the quality of life, but in its
sanctity.
That must explain the slaughter of natives, the enslavement of
Africans...
And, the refusal to hire people due to their being Catholic, Jewish or
Black. The refusal to educate women or give them their rights as
citizens...
Keeping in line with the "ethics of Sinai" and the volcano god that
ordered people slaughtered, condoned slavery, approved of the treatment of
women as chattel...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Group website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
21 Mar 2005 09:17:43 PM |
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Michelle Malkin wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:x8mdnbMsutwxYaPfRVn-tg@megapath.net...
In our last episode <g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com>, Jason
Spaceman pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
Thankfully, the United States does not derive its ethics from Darwin,
but
from Sinai. We do not believe in the quality of life, but in its
sanctity.
That must explain the slaughter of natives, the enslavement of
Africans...
And, the refusal to hire people due to their being Catholic, Jewish or
Black. The refusal to educate women or give them their rights as
citizens...
Segregation, the KKK, racial purity laws, Jim Crow laws,
night riders, lynchings, state sponsered destruction of
rights of citizens based on skin color discrimination,
and oppression.
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Mitchell Holman" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 07:44:02 PM |
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Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in
news:g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com:
Thankfully, the United States does not derive its ethics from Darwin,
but from Sinai.
And what are those "Sinai" ethics?
"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day
shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD .
Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."
Exodus 35:2.
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 11:58:01 AM |
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Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in
news:g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com:
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Before Hitler came for the Jews and the gypsies, he first came after
the mentally handicapped. He offered this rationale for euthanasia:
"In nature, there is no pity for the lesser creatures when they are
destroyed so that the fittest may survive. Going against nature brings
ruin to man. It is only Jewish impudence to demand that we overcome
nature." Hitler, who was a committed evolutionist and applied the
ruthless principals of natural selection to the human species, opposed
"artificial" means of keeping the infirm alive. The species was
strengthened when its weakest constituents perished, just as nature
decreed.
Your insidious propaganda is noted. Hitler was a committed fascist. Why
are you not attacking gravitationalists in the same breath? I mean
gravity makes people fall from cliffs and causes them to be able to
suicide by jumping from tall buildings and bridges. You should be
attacking any scientist who accepts gravity on the grounds that anyone
obeying the law of gravity in such a manner is obviously a committed
gravitationalist!
Your "argument" is flawed on several counts. It begins with the classic
argumentum ad hominem fallacy. Hitler believed that Germans should
breathe. Therefore, since Hitler was evil, Martin Luther should have
committed suicide (after all he was German and anything Hitler believed
must be wrong, no?). And then there's this little matter of you implying
that, if evolution is a fact, then we must try to make it happen even
faster? As I pointed out above. Gravity is a fact. That fact does not
mandate us jumping off cliffs (feel free to consider yourself an
exception, though). Just because evolution is a fact does not imply that
we automatically need more of it (though, we certainly do USE the fact in
developing seed crops and medicines).
Getting really tired of creationist scum putting vile hate propaganda
like this in front of innocent children. These people PRETEND to be
Christian while defying God's commandments and acting in a manner
directly contrary to everything Jesus taught. It's time for us to send
them out of our churches and out of our councils into the outer darkness
that is their natural venue, folks. Cast the devil out before he devours
your soul.
Charles Darwin expressed his own belief in stronger and more feeble
parts of the human family when he famously wrote, "The more civilized
so-called Caucasian races have beaten the Turkish hollow in the
struggle for existence. Looking to the world at no very distant date,
what an endless number of the lower races will have been eliminated by
the higher civilized races throughout the world."
Thankfully, the United States does not derive its ethics from Darwin,
but from Sinai. We do not believe in the quality of life, but in its
BWAHAHAHAHAHA! My irony meter just exploded. And it's one of the new
logarithmic kind.
sanctity. Since Hitler was the enemy of life, he despised not just
Judaism, but Christianity, which in turn embraced the biblical idea of
the infinite value of every human life and how each individual,
regardless of the degree of brain cognition, was possessed of the
divine.
Hitler was a very good creationist, actually and insisted that God had
created HIM to take down all these other things. The biblical ideas of
love your neighbour as yourself and do not bear false witness were as
foreign to Hitler as they are to your average latter-day young-earth
creationist scum hypocrite, who lies in his teeth about science all day
long and then preens his false feathers and claims to be doing God's
work. Rev 21:8 describes the end of these creatures. They will be found
NOT FIT to share God's direct presence.
Read it at
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43381
Why? It seems pretty obvious that this outfit is dedicated spreading
hatred and lies in God's name. In a more civilized time, the secular
authorities would restrain them. Today, they can hide behind an
amendment of the US constitution that was put in place to make it illegal
for government to grind down legitimate criticism. But they USE that
freedom, not to criticize government legitimately, but instead to spread
lies and hatred about their neighbours, in DIRECT DEFIANCE of the Lord
their God. And then their jaw drops a foot when God permits someone to
bomb a building or something. HYPOCRITES! God-hating infidels, some in
clerical garb! Wolves in sheeps' clothing! Blind leaders of the blind!
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
A false witness is worse than no witness at all.
.
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| User: "Dale" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 02:01:02 PM |
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"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns961E65617309Edoldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in
news:g3jn31dk6ob76k0pahjsc5k3pclsp9gkj7@4ax.com:
[...]
Read it at
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43381
Why? It seems pretty obvious that this outfit is dedicated spreading
hatred and lies in God's name.
That's the point. Mr. Spaceman regularly posts excerpts from creationist
articles he finds, as a way of keeping the readers of t.o informed about the
position of the enemy. Not to worry, plenty of people have mistaken the
Spaceman's quotes for his own opinions.
.
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| User: "David Fritzinger" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 12:48:46 PM |
|
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In article <Xns961E65617309Edoldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159>,
Dave Oldridge <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
[Really big snip]
Dave, Jason often posts these excerpts. It's not that he believes this
stuff, because he doesn't. He is doing this as a service so we can see
what is being printed in the newspapers, etc. He is not quoting things
he believes.
--
Dave Fritzinger
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| User: "Jason Spaceman" |
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| Title: Re: WingNutDaily columnist: Barbarity in America |
19 Mar 2005 07:42:31 PM |
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On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:58:01 +0000 (GMT), Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
Getting really tired of creationist scum putting vile hate propaganda
like this in front of innocent children. These people PRETEND to be
Christian while defying God's commandments and acting in a manner
directly contrary to everything Jesus taught. It's time for us to send
them out of our churches and out of our councils into the outer darkness
that is their natural venue, folks. Cast the devil out before he devours
your soul.
That article was an excerpt from Rabbi Shmuley Boteach's WingNutDaily
column. Since he is a rabbi I doubt if he is trying to be christian,
:-).
J. Spaceman
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