Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote:

On 18 Oct 2006 17:25:54 GMT,

Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote:

Another lie. Notably you don't identify this direct action of the
man's which produced a child.

The necessary direct action is to donate sperm.

Which is irrelevant to whether the courts will assign child support.

It is one of the primary factors.

No, it is not. It is of no relevance whatever.

Being the biological father is of no relevance whatsoever?

Moving the goalposts.

And notice that your argument is also anti-abortion since women
"donate" eggs.

And also have a responsibility toward support of the child.

Thus abortion should be illegal, according to you.

I have no idea where that came from.

She has a responsibility to the child, according to you, because she
donated the egg. Thus abortion and adoption must be illegal.

No, whether or not men give birth is irrelevant.

So you're saying that men should pay for no reason other than you want
them to pay.

Why can't you get it through your thick skull that the only thing I
want is for public money not to be used in child support?

Then why do you keep arguing that men should be required to provde
support?

Only those who are legally required to do so.

That isn't an answer to the question. It's one of your usual red
herrings.

Child support is not
punishment,

Orwellian newspeak.

No, the basic disagreement.

You think that forcing a person into servitude for the benefit of
another isn't punishment.

Your greed and oyur need to justify your income from "child" support
has made you dishonest and irrational.

Abortion allows a woman to choose to get out of the responsibility
of raising a child. She simply gets an abortion and she is done
with it. A man does NOT have a choice in the matter, regardless if
he wanted a child or not.

Attila wrote:

On 17 Oct 2006 16:31:05 GMT,

Attila <<prochoice@here.now> wrote:

So now you are saying that slavery and forced child support are not
so
different after all.

No. While they do have some vague similarities they are quite
different.

Both involve forced servitude.

One as a result of some action directly taken.

Like most irrational anti-choicers you cannot defend your position
without lying.

You consider anything that disagrees with one of your positions as
lying.

Another lie. Notably you don't identify this direct action of the
man's which produced a child.

The necessary direct action is to donate sperm. The remainder is
elementary biology.

Men do not choose to give birth to children
needing support.

Irrelevant.

Then support is NOT the result of an actyion of the man's.

No, whether or not men give birth is irrelevant.

Men are a necessary component in the process.

Just as victims are a "necessary component" of murder.

It would be difficult to have a murder without a victim, just as it
would be difficult to rob a bank without a bank to rob.

You are certainly getting desperate with all of these semantic
arguments. You must really hate that child support you are obviously
paying.

Slavery usually involves a standardized group of some kind
- race, nationality, and so forth.

"Father".

That is not a race or nationality or any other standardized group.

Again you resort to stupid lies.

Again. a lie seems to be anything that disagrees with you.

You seem to think that fathers are not a "standardized group".

They aren't. Any male can be a father - that is like saying killing
all males is genocide. It isn't, of course.

Courts ruled against blacks and ordered them into the vustody of their
masters.

Such rulings were in line with the laws that existed.

Just like paternity laws.

Or any other laws.

So your argument in favor of forced child support can be used to
justify slavery.

I have not presented any arguments in support of either.

Child support is a court ordered condition which does not depend on
any sub classification. It is limited in duration.

And slavery was sometimes of limited duration.

No, it was not.

Another lie. There were slaves who bought their freedom.

But if they did not there was no time limit.

Irrelevant.

No, it is one of the major differences between slavery and
non-slavery.

Don't start lying. YOU are personally arguing for what YOU want.

I only want no public money involved.

Another lie. You argue that men should be forced to pay for what you
want.

No, I don't.

People can read your arguments above and see that you are, as usual,
lying.

People can read the comments of both of us and see who is the
screaming fool.

I simply point out you are wrong, and that infuriates
you.

Don't project your own rage onto me.

Rage? That's amusing. You are the one showing all the emotion here.
But you do that a lot when shown to be wrong.

Because YOU don't want children to starve you want to steal money from
others.

No, I don't want public money used.

You prefer to see children starve.

That is why child support is ordered.

No. I have no desires in this arena other than not involving public
money.

You'd be happy seeing children starve so long as they don't do so on
your doorstep.

My doorstep is irrelevant. I don't want my tax dollars used in this
area. Those responsible should pay.

You're contradicting yourself.

First you say that you don't care, then you say that those
"responsible" should pay. Which is it really?

Someone must pay, and I oppose that someone being the government.

You just argue that men should suffer for sex.

Nope.

Stop lying, *****. You wrote "results from a deliberate action of
some kind". Tell us what action you refer top if not sex?

Marrying a woman with children

So you're now saying that only men who were married should be expected
to pay child support?

No.

Again you contradict yourself. You say that marriage is the action
which a man does that makes him obligated to pay, then you say it
isn't the action.

It is one of the actions. There are others.

You resorting to the usual pro-liar tactic of using a red
herring to squirm out of a corner.

Which action of a man's is REALLY the reason he must pay?

You appear to have some specific answer in mind - why not simply say
it?

I see you must take a comment out of context.

I see that you're a pro-liar.

Which is anyone who disagrees with you.

Yoou've been taking lessons from heishman. You conotradict yourself,
you lie, and then you whine when you're caught lying.

Nonsense. I will gladly leave the judgment of the accuracy of your
statement to anyone else who is reading this.

Which action of a man's is REALLY the reason he must pay?

There you go again.

(which results in the existence of the
child)

Stop lying, *****. Children are the result of childbirth.

Which has biological requirements to exist in the first place.

Which is a total non sequitur. Children are not the result of sex.

But sex or it's biological equivalent is normally necessary.

No, it is not.

That would be enlightening to entire generations of biologists.
Not to mention doctors.

Children are the result of childbirth. A fact which you pro-liars
have difficulty understanding.

No comment necessary.

Run away, coward.

Have you paid your child support this month?

--
Pro-Choice is Pro-Freedom

Your ramblings are nothing more than amusing and testimony to your
mental illness.

child support is unfair. More often than not, men are treated
differently than women in this area.

Abortion allows a woman to choose to get out of the responsibility of
raising a child.

She simply gets an abortion and she is done with it.

A man does NOT have a choice in the matter, regardless if he wanted a
child or not.

Women for years have chanted they don't need men and they are equal.

Are they? Doesn't appear so, because they still go after men to
support them and the child.

If they were so equal and didn't need men,
they don't need support and can go out and support themselves and a
child.

If a man doesn't want to be a father, why can't he have the choice of
making a legal document prior to the relationship that states if they
have a child, he can walk away free and clear. No such legal document
exist.

You support slavery.

You also support discrimination against men.

There are so many holes in the system and so much unfairness towards
men, it's sickening. But you support it.

I believe a man should step up on his own and support his children and
be a father.

A father is not just a sperm donar and a walking pay
check, like you seem to think. A father is one who takes
responsibility without having to be ordered.

You don't even know the holes in the system or recognize them due to
your own bias and bigotry.

Your ramblings are nothing more than amusing and testimony to your
mental illness.

child support is unfair. More often than not, men are treated
differently than women in this area.

Abortion allows a woman to choose to get out of the responsibility of
raising a child.

She simply gets an abortion and she is done with it.
A man does NOT have a choice in the matter, regardless if he wanted a
child or not.

Women for years have chanted they don't need men and they are equal.

Are they? Doesn't appear so, because they still go after men to
support them and the child.

If they were so equal and didn't need men,
they don't need support and can go out and support themselves and a
child.

If a man doesn't want to be a father, why can't he have the choice of
making a legal document prior to the relationship that states if they
have a child, he can walk away free and clear. No such legal document
exist.

You support slavery.

You also support discrimination against men.

There are so many holes in the system and so much unfairness towards
men, it's sickening. But you support it.

I believe a man should step up on his own and support his children and
be a father.

A father is not just a sperm donar and a walking pay
check, like you seem to think.

A father is one who takes
responsibility without having to be ordered.

You don't even know the holes in the system or recognize them due to
your own bias and bigotry.

I believe a man should step up on his own and support his children and
be a father. A father is not just a sperm donar and a walking pay
check, like you seem to think. A father is one who takes
responsibility without having to be ordered.

rfischer@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote:

So now you are saying that slavery and forced child support are not so
different after all.

No. While they do have some vague similarities they are quite
different.

Both involve forced servitude.
Neither (according to you) is punishment.
Neither is based upon any action by the victim.

How is a person a victim of having support their own child?