| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"angelicusrex" |
| Date: |
03 Jan 2004 01:59:33 PM |
| Object: |
Wonder: |
"People travel to wonder at the height of the mountains, at the huge waves
of the seas, at the long course of the rivers, at the vast compass of the
ocean, at the circular motion of the stars, and yet they pass by themselves
without wondering." St. Augustine
We are but a moment's candlelight flickering in a vast universe. But in that
tiny light is the miracle of existence itself. So many these days are asking
for "proof" of God, of spirit, or of faith working in our lives. Someday, a
comet or asteroid or other piece of space flotsam will slam into this world.
All proof of our very existence will be removed from sight. What will be
left to prove that we lived and died and struggled and had hope and faith as
human beings? Scraps of newsprint and tin signs buried beneath towering
mountains of rubble. Nature can be cruel. What was once supreme can be wiped
out in an instant, nothing left of it to offer proof to those who might come
after us. We talk of the great Library of Alexandria. Where is it? Is there
a stack of scrolls somewhere to tell us what it must have been like? No, it
is gone, burned to ash and ruin. Sounds tragic doesn't it? What can it all
mean? Only this: Live in the present moment. Trust to spirit which is
eternal and which cannot be extinguished like the tiny flickering flame of
our lives. Spirit is the opposite of the dark vacuum of our material
universe, where sparks we call stars and planets blink in and out of
existence. It is the eternal daytime in opposition to the eternal night of
this universe. We descended here long ago to bring light to it. That should
be our only goal. And that goal cannot be projected into the unknown future
or built upon the remnants of often corrupted wisdom of the past. It has to
be kindled from the Living Fire of the Living God right now, today. God has
the wisdom, power and majesty to overcome our dark feelings, our suspicions
of one another, our disagreements about the past and our fears about our
uncertain future. Others may use these feelings of distrust we have in our
world and in ourselves in order to "terrorize" us and make us bend to their
will. The easiest way to confront terror, as God has always said, is to be
unafraid. Be unafraid that your faith might have no "scientific basis" or
that God cannot be proven by chemistries and machines. Be unafraid because
the proof of God lies in the self, that wonder St. Augustine noted in each
and every one of us. Our chemical furnace we call a body, our ability to
think rationally and scientifically at all, our mysterious ability to heal
that which should not be able to be healed, our ability to find wisdom in
dreams and signs and symbols, are all proof that whatever it is we are is
founded on is something magnificent and more gigantic and powerful than any
wave or mountain peak.
If we rationalize we are nothing, then we act as nothing. If we see
ourselves as miracles, then we act miraculously. Confounding all those who
say we are as nothing.
Saint
.
|
|
| User: "Elf M. Sternberg" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
05 Jan 2004 02:32:03 PM |
|
|
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> writes:
If we rationalize we are nothing, then we act as nothing. If we see
ourselves as miracles, then we act miraculously. Confounding all those who
say we are as nothing.
Unfortunately, too many who have seen themselves as miracles
have acted as monsters. Those who rationalize that they are human
beings, at least, have an excellent track record of acting humanely.
Elf
--
Elf M. Sternberg, Proud to be an Extinctionist
http://www.drizzle.com/~elf/
With the advance of biogenetics, it is not so much that we are losing
our dignity and freedom but that we realise we never had them in the
first place. - Slavoj Zizek
.
|
|
|
| User: "angelicusrex" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
05 Jan 2004 08:24:32 PM |
|
|
This is what happens to people who cannot fathom or appreciate spirituality.
They lose all sense of wonder...
"Elf M. Sternberg" <elf@drizzle.com> wrote in message
Unfortunately, too many who have seen themselves as miracles
have acted as monsters. Those who rationalize that they are human
beings, at least, have an excellent track record of acting humanely.
This is far from true. It is mostly atheistic men, or men who believe
themselves to have God-like powers and are therefore either God themselves
or above God as a concept, (few women usually wind up as these types of
monsters...Thank God!) who lose sight of exactly what I said: that we are
ALL miracles of God, Spirit or Nature whatever you want to call it.
This means all people are sacred and to be respected, appreciated and loved
for being miracles. Once a person thinks they are the ONLY miracle or the
BEST mircale and all others should bow to them, then the trouble starts.
Most spiritual people will have heard what I said and understood it easily.
Atheists and power mongers, egotists and others without a shred of spiritual
understanding, who are yet full of pride, feeling that somehow Nature or
Fate or Genetics made them better than all the rest of us, will undoubtedly
see things just like Elf has.
Saint
P.S.
With the advance of biogenetics, it is not so much that we are losing
our dignity and freedom but that we realise we never had them in the
first place. - Slavoj Zizek
Biogenetics is advancing rapidly but people make the mistake of thinking
that our human dignity, rights and freedoms and privileges are given to us
by genetics, that somehow we are better than animals or one another. If
these people gave a proper reading to history, they would see these rights
were granted to us by our creator (as the Founding Fathers have proclaimed),
no matter what that Creator may be, God or Nature or Nature's God (as the
F.F. termed it). We, as conscious human beings accept these rights and
responsibilities which go with the freedom which we believe ALL beings
should have. We know these rights are generated not by genetics, but by our
own consciousness' developed as they are to a higher pinnacle by
understanding what the concept of freedom means. They are inalienable
rights. They cannot be taken away by men. And they are worth fighting for.
Of course we never had these freedoms 'naturally,' they are constructs of
the mind. And we have minds which are self aware. We have created our world
by our minds where instincts and nature creates the worlds of animals and
plants which are not self-aware. This is exactly why we are miracles. As is
all life and all reality. However we are a bit different from the
flamingoes, deer and lions, or from bacterium and viruses. We are not
BETTER, just DIFFERENT. And it is in our differences that we shine in our
own special way.
It is too bad some people are so wrapped up in the possibility that we are
driven by simple chemical triggers, instincts and natural urges that they
simply cannot see that we have minds of our own, detached from and separate
from nature. Our place is no longer "in nature." Our true place is In
Spirit. Yet as we do exist here now we are responsible to care for and
understand nature, working with it and through it for the betterment of all.
The American Indians knew this. The Druids and Celts knew this. Yet, because
atheists are so adamantly opposed to even natural spirituality, they see a
world of darkness, decay, extinction and they call spirituality "fairy
stories" and conclude that all people's gods are "sky pixies." Not only is
this beligerent and rude, it is wrong. It hardens the heart of men against
one another and makes the world worse.
As for science, two books are out this month, "Fabulous Science" by John
Walter, and "Of Moths and Men" by Judith Hooper. Both expose the fact that
often scientists and researchers "fudge" or "massage" their figures and
experimental output in order to make their theories work. Now, I am not
against science. I am all for it. When it is done responsibly. But often it
is not. And people pay the price for these research inaccuracies and
downright lies. Science is no more pristine or lacking in violence or
indignity than any organized institution, religious, poltical or otherwise.
Facts may be presented which are not facts. Scientists, like the famous
Louis Pasteur have actually lied about their figures. So did the famous
"discoverer" of Gravity, Sir Isaace Newton, who was also a part time
alchemist and insisted that the rainbow had seven colors because seven was a
sacred alchemical/numerological number! Darwin's theories also did not all
make exact sense and were Lamarckian in many respects. (That is Lamarck was
opposed to Darwin because he believed things which animals developed in one
lifetime could be passed on to their progeny...). So when atheists tout
science as the be all and end all of human understanding, they are not
understanding humanity! Because humans are so afraid of being wrong they
will often do anything to show themselves as right. Luckily men like Pasteur
and others were right! But they still lied about their findings. So science
and scientists are no more sacrosanct than any other "sacred cow" that
mankind preserves as their touchstone for reality. Therefore, believe only
your heart, not the words of vain men who keep proclaiming they alone are
right, they alone are in receipt of the truth. Atheists have no more truth
that does a Jivaro Indian or a Inuit Shaman. We all have some of the truth.
But we all have agendas as well.
This is why I say, believe whatever you like. The Truth still holds true and
we will one day discover it fully. When people are able to tell themselves
the truth without shaking at the knees at the possibilities.
Saint
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "bogie" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
03 Jan 2004 05:29:22 PM |
|
|
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message news:<bt76ur$3n089$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>...
"People travel to wonder at the height of the mountains, at the huge waves
of the seas, at the long course of the rivers, at the vast compass of the
ocean, at the circular motion of the stars, and yet they pass by themselves
without wondering." St. Augustine
We are but a moment's candlelight flickering in a vast universe. But in that
tiny light is the miracle of existence itself. So many these days are asking
for "proof" of God, of spirit, or of faith working in our lives. Someday, a
comet or asteroid or other piece of space flotsam will slam into this world.
All proof of our very existence will be removed from sight. What will be
left to prove that we lived and died and struggled and had hope and faith as
human beings? Scraps of newsprint and tin signs buried beneath towering
mountains of rubble. Nature can be cruel. What was once supreme can be wiped
out in an instant, nothing left of it to offer proof to those who might come
after us. We talk of the great Library of Alexandria. Where is it? Is there
a stack of scrolls somewhere to tell us what it must have been like? No, it
is gone, burned to ash and ruin. Sounds tragic doesn't it? What can it all
mean? Only this: Live in the present moment. Trust to spirit which is
eternal and which cannot be extinguished like the tiny flickering flame of
our lives. Spirit is the opposite of the dark vacuum of our material
universe, where sparks we call stars and planets blink in and out of
existence. It is the eternal daytime in opposition to the eternal night of
this universe. We descended here long ago to bring light to it. That should
be our only goal. And that goal cannot be projected into the unknown future
or built upon the remnants of often corrupted wisdom of the past. It has to
be kindled from the Living Fire of the Living God right now, today. God has
the wisdom, power and majesty to overcome our dark feelings, our suspicions
of one another, our disagreements about the past and our fears about our
uncertain future. Others may use these feelings of distrust we have in our
world and in ourselves in order to "terrorize" us and make us bend to their
will. The easiest way to confront terror, as God has always said, is to be
unafraid. Be unafraid that your faith might have no "scientific basis" or
that God cannot be proven by chemistries and machines. Be unafraid because
the proof of God lies in the self, that wonder St. Augustine noted in each
and every one of us. Our chemical furnace we call a body, our ability to
think rationally and scientifically at all, our mysterious ability to heal
that which should not be able to be healed, our ability to find wisdom in
dreams and signs and symbols, are all proof that whatever it is we are is
founded on is something magnificent and more gigantic and powerful than any
wave or mountain peak.
If we rationalize we are nothing, then we act as nothing. If we see
ourselves as miracles, then we act miraculously. Confounding all those who
say we are as nothing.
Saint
*yawn*
Just pass the collection basket and get it over with.
*bogie
.
|
|
|
| User: "angelicusrex" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
03 Jan 2004 11:29:30 PM |
|
|
*yawn*
Just pass the collection basket and get it over with.
I just offered you some wisdom. I expect nothing in return from you but
libels and cruel jokes at my expense. Which is why I am the...
Saint 0;-)
.
|
|
|
| User: "bogie" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
04 Jan 2004 08:56:32 PM |
|
|
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bt88be$4987s$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
*yawn*
Just pass the collection basket and get it over with.
I just offered you some wisdom. I expect nothing in return from you but
libels and cruel jokes at my expense. Which is why I am the...
Saint 0;-)
Whatever. Just wake me when those Mark 16 inspired snake handlers come on
stage. They're very entertaining.
*bogie
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Baruch" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
08 Jan 2004 08:49:07 PM |
|
|
Hey, don't break your arm patting yourself on your halo...
I just offered you some wisdom. I expect nothing in return from you but
libels and cruel jokes at my expense. Which is why I am the...
Saint 0;-)
.
|
|
|
| User: "angelicusrex" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
09 Jan 2004 12:11:18 PM |
|
|
In the immortal words of Saint Jerome,
"I will break the arm of the next mother f*cker who touches my damned halo!"
Saint 0;-)
"Baruch" <baruch@N0blessedb.org$PAM> wrote in message
news:DEoLb.11281$Ub6.296673@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Hey, don't break your arm patting yourself on your halo...
I just offered you some wisdom. I expect nothing in return from you but
libels and cruel jokes at my expense. Which is why I am the...
Saint 0;-)
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Baruch" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
03 Jan 2004 08:28:30 PM |
|
|
Well, if you had put in enough the last time, they wouldn't have to pass the
basket again.. cheap piker...
*yawn*
Just pass the collection basket and get it over with.
*bogie
.
|
|
|
| User: "bogie" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
04 Jan 2004 08:51:24 PM |
|
|
"Baruch" <baruch@N0blessedb.org$PAM> wrote in message
news:iTKJb.592173$0v4.23402474@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Well, if you had put in enough the last time, they wouldn't have to pass
the
basket again.. cheap piker...
Damn! It never ends . . . .
Let's see . . . Here! Here's 5 pieces of pocket lint and 2 gum wrappers!
What were the odds of that?
Spooky, eh?
*bogie
*yawn*
Just pass the collection basket and get it over with.
*bogie
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Owen Hughes" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
03 Jan 2004 04:10:07 PM |
|
|
Firstly, PARAGRAPHS DAMN YOUR EYES!
Some people *ahem* have short attention spans and just posting big
blocks of text like that confuses and disorientates us.
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message news:<bt76ur$3n089$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>...
"People travel to wonder at the height of the mountains, at the huge waves
of the seas, at the long course of the rivers, at the vast compass of the
ocean, at the circular motion of the stars, and yet they pass by themselves
without wondering." St. Augustine
We are but a moment's candlelight flickering in a vast universe. But in that
tiny light is the miracle of existence itself. So many these days are asking
for "proof" of God, of spirit, or of faith working in our lives. Someday, a
comet or asteroid or other piece of space flotsam will slam into this world.
All proof of our very existence will be removed from sight. What will be
left to prove that we lived and died and struggled and had hope and faith as
human beings? Scraps of newsprint and tin signs buried beneath towering
mountains of rubble. Nature can be cruel. What was once supreme can be wiped
out in an instant, nothing left of it to offer proof to those who might come
after us. We talk of the great Library of Alexandria. Where is it? Is there
a stack of scrolls somewhere to tell us what it must have been like? No, it
is gone, burned to ash and ruin. Sounds tragic doesn't it? What can it all
mean? Only this: Live in the present moment.
I agree with you so far. In the long run nothing is worth anything and
you can't take it with you anyway so you should try to extract
something of value out of life.
Trust to spirit which is
eternal and which cannot be extinguished like the tiny flickering flame of
our lives. Spirit is the opposite of the dark vacuum of our material
universe, where sparks we call stars and planets blink in and out of
existence. It is the eternal daytime in opposition to the eternal night of
this universe. We descended here long ago to bring light to it. That should
be our only goal. And that goal cannot be projected into the unknown future
or built upon the remnants of often corrupted wisdom of the past. It has to
be kindled from the Living Fire of the Living God right now, today. God has
the wisdom, power and majesty to overcome our dark feelings, our suspicions
of one another, our disagreements about the past and our fears about our
uncertain future. Others may use these feelings of distrust we have in our
world and in ourselves in order to "terrorize" us and make us bend to their
will. The easiest way to confront terror, as God has always said, is to be
unafraid. Be unafraid that your faith might have no "scientific basis" or
that God cannot be proven by chemistries and machines. Be unafraid because
the proof of God lies in the self, that wonder St. Augustine noted in each
and every one of us. Our chemical furnace we call a body, our ability to
think rationally and scientifically at all, our mysterious ability to heal
that which should not be able to be healed, our ability to find wisdom in
dreams and signs and symbols, are all proof that whatever it is we are is
founded on is something magnificent and more gigantic and powerful than any
wave or mountain peak.
And then you sort of lose it...
If I am living for now how much of now should I spend worrying about
what's going to happen to me after I am dead?
Why do so many terrorists kill people over religious differences?
Why do so many wars start that way?
Why do I need to believe in the supernatural to feel wonder? The world
is no less an amazing place if viewed rationally.
Why do you think rationalizing should lead one to the view that we are
nothing?
--
#1883
.
|
|
|
| User: "angelicusrex" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
03 Jan 2004 11:27:47 PM |
|
|
"Owen Hughes" <spm1138@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Some people *ahem* have short attention spans and just posting big
blocks of text like that confuses and disorientates us.
How very sad for you.
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:<bt76ur$3n089$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>...
"People travel to wonder at the height of the mountains, at the huge
waves
of the seas, at the long course of the rivers, at the vast compass of
the
ocean, at the circular motion of the stars, and yet they pass by
themselves
without wondering." St. Augustine
We are but a moment's candlelight flickering in a vast universe. But in
that
tiny light is the miracle of existence itself. So many these days are
asking
for "proof" of God, of spirit, or of faith working in our lives.
Someday, a
comet or asteroid or other piece of space flotsam will slam into this
world.
All proof of our very existence will be removed from sight. What will be
left to prove that we lived and died and struggled and had hope and
faith as
human beings? Scraps of newsprint and tin signs buried beneath towering
mountains of rubble. Nature can be cruel. What was once supreme can be
wiped
out in an instant, nothing left of it to offer proof to those who might
come
after us. We talk of the great Library of Alexandria. Where is it? Is
there
a stack of scrolls somewhere to tell us what it must have been like? No,
it
is gone, burned to ash and ruin. Sounds tragic doesn't it? What can it
all
mean? Only this: Live in the present moment.
This was one paragraph.
I agree with you so far. In the long run nothing is worth anything and
you can't take it with you anyway so you should try to extract
something of value out of life.
Exactly.
Trust to spirit which is
eternal and which cannot be extinguished like the tiny flickering flame
of
our lives. Spirit is the opposite of the dark vacuum of our material
universe, where sparks we call stars and planets blink in and out of
existence. It is the eternal daytime in opposition to the eternal night
of
this universe. We descended here long ago to bring light to it. That
should
be our only goal. And that goal cannot be projected into the unknown
future
or built upon the remnants of often corrupted wisdom of the past. It has
to
be kindled from the Living Fire of the Living God right now, today. God
has
the wisdom, power and majesty to overcome our dark feelings, our
suspicions
of one another, our disagreements about the past and our fears about our
uncertain future. Others may use these feelings of distrust we have in
our
world and in ourselves in order to "terrorize" us and make us bend to
their
will. The easiest way to confront terror, as God has always said, is to
be
unafraid. Be unafraid that your faith might have no "scientific basis"
or
that God cannot be proven by chemistries and machines. Be unafraid
because
the proof of God lies in the self, that wonder St. Augustine noted in
each
and every one of us. Our chemical furnace we call a body, our ability to
think rationally and scientifically at all, our mysterious ability to
heal
that which should not be able to be healed, our ability to find wisdom
in
dreams and signs and symbols, are all proof that whatever it is we are
is
founded on is something magnificent and more gigantic and powerful than
any
wave or mountain peak.
This was the second, albeit lengthy paragraph.
And then you sort of lose it...
Really? I think it is you who lost it.
If I am living for now how much of now should I spend worrying about
what's going to happen to me after I am dead?
There is not one thing in the paragraphs I wrote that says you should think
anything at all about what happens after you die. I said to live in the
present moment. That you cannot build your hopes on the past or the future.
Why do so many terrorists kill people over religious differences?
Because they are afraid the different ways of thinking will "infect" their
culture and religion and destroy it. And they are right. It is called
"change" all terrorist fundamentalists are frightened of change.
Why do so many wars start that way?
Wars start because some nations support the terrorists as freedom fighters
or religious zealots and then other countries, affected by the terror
adversely, take their vengeance upon the country in support of terror,
hoping to destroy the terrorist's base or homeland and disable them.
Why do I need to believe in the supernatural to feel wonder? The world
is no less an amazing place if viewed rationally.
Do what you like. Believe what you like. But the world and universe is not a
fully rational place and people are not always rational. This is truth.
Therefore if irrationality exists, how can you overcome it? If it is in you,
how can you prevent it from taking over, say when a beloved wife dies of
cancer or war comes to our town. Rationalism is not useful all the time.
Irrationality abounds in all human culture and no one will eradicate it,
because we need it. Don't ask me why. But we do.
Why do you think rationalizing should lead one to the view that we are
nothing?
I don't know what you are talking about. I did not say that rationalizing
makes us nothing. I said if we rationalize that we ARE nothing, then we ACT
as if we are nothing. And nothing gets accomplished in our lives. Some
people act as if they are nothing, and they want others to believe they are
also nothing. People of spirit think or rationalize we are SOMETHING.
Something important. We are here for a reason and a purpose. We think we are
a miracle.
Namaste'
Saint
.
|
|
|
| User: "Owen Hughes" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
04 Jan 2004 04:45:12 AM |
|
|
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message news:<bt8888$48d6q$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>...
"Owen Hughes" <spm1138@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Some people *ahem* have short attention spans and just posting big
blocks of text like that confuses and disorientates us.
How very sad for you.
We are but a moment's candlelight flickering in a vast universe. But in
that
tiny light is the miracle of existence itself. So many these days are
asking
for "proof" of God, of spirit, or of faith working in our lives.
Someday, a
comet or asteroid or other piece of space flotsam will slam into this
world.
All proof of our very existence will be removed from sight. What will be
left to prove that we lived and died and struggled and had hope and
faith as
human beings? Scraps of newsprint and tin signs buried beneath towering
mountains of rubble. Nature can be cruel. What was once supreme can be
wiped
out in an instant, nothing left of it to offer proof to those who might
come
after us. We talk of the great Library of Alexandria. Where is it? Is
there
a stack of scrolls somewhere to tell us what it must have been like? No,
it
is gone, burned to ash and ruin. Sounds tragic doesn't it? What can it
all
mean? Only this: Live in the present moment.
This was one paragraph.
No. The quote was at the top one paragraph. "If We Rationalize..." was
another paragraph. Everything in between was one congealed lump of
text... unless you're using something really esoteric to format text
which your headers say you aren't.
<snipped because we agreed with each other>
Trust to spirit which is
eternal and which cannot be extinguished like the tiny flickering flame
of
our lives. Spirit is the opposite of the dark vacuum of our material
universe, where sparks we call stars and planets blink in and out of
existence. It is the eternal daytime in opposition to the eternal night
of
this universe. We descended here long ago to bring light to it. That
should
be our only goal. And that goal cannot be projected into the unknown
future
or built upon the remnants of often corrupted wisdom of the past. It has
to
be kindled from the Living Fire of the Living God right now, today. God
has
the wisdom, power and majesty to overcome our dark feelings, our
suspicions
of one another, our disagreements about the past and our fears about our
uncertain future. Others may use these feelings of distrust we have in
our
world and in ourselves in order to "terrorize" us and make us bend to
their
will. The easiest way to confront terror, as God has always said, is to
be
unafraid. Be unafraid that your faith might have no "scientific basis"
or
that God cannot be proven by chemistries and machines. Be unafraid
because
the proof of God lies in the self, that wonder St. Augustine noted in
each
and every one of us. Our chemical furnace we call a body, our ability to
think rationally and scientifically at all, our mysterious ability to
heal
that which should not be able to be healed, our ability to find wisdom
in
dreams and signs and symbols, are all proof that whatever it is we are
is
founded on is something magnificent and more gigantic and powerful than
any
wave or mountain peak.
The whole lot above this line up to the bottom of the quote was one
ugly congealed mess on my screen in both Mozilla and Internet Explorer
running on Windows XP.
<schlik schlik>
If I am living for now how much of now should I spend worrying about
what's going to happen to me after I am dead?
There is not one thing in the paragraphs I wrote that says you should think
anything at all about what happens after you die. I said to live in the
present moment. That you cannot build your hopes on the past or the future.
"Trust to spirit which is
eternal and which cannot be extinguished like the tiny flickering
flame of
our lives"
If you're going to bring concepts like "God", "spirit" and "eternal"
into it and mope on about "nothing left of it to offer proof to those
who might come
after us" that's exactly what you're on about.
<schlik schlik>
unafraid. Be unafraid that your faith might have no "scientific basis" or
that God cannot be proven by chemistries and machines. Be unafraid because
the proof of God lies in the self, that wonder St. Augustine noted in
each and every one of us. Our chemical furnace we call a body, our ability
to think rationally and scientifically at all, our mysterious ability to
heal that which should not be able to be healed, our ability to find
wisdom in dreams and signs and symbols, are all proof that whatever it is
we are is founded on is something magnificent and more gigantic and
powerful than any wave or mountain peak.
Do what you like. Believe what you like. But the world and universe is not a
fully rational place and people are not always rational. This is truth.
Therefore if irrationality exists, how can you overcome it? If it is in you,
how can you prevent it from taking over, say when a beloved wife dies of
cancer or war comes to our town. Rationalism is not useful all the time.
Irrationality abounds in all human culture and no one will eradicate it,
because we need it. Don't ask me why. But we do.
Having feelings doesn't mean I need to accept a load of touchie feely
crap about "Living Fire of the Living God" or anything else.
Your original point was that human beings are amazing and that should
be seen as evidence of something supernatural. You also seemed to be
saying that belief was some sort of requirement for feeling wonder
when looking at the human body or the world around us.
If we rationalize we are nothing, then we act as nothing. If we see
ourselves as miracles, then we act miraculously. Confounding all those who
say we are as nothing.
Why do you think rationalizing should lead one to the view that we are
nothing?
I don't know what you are talking about. I did not say that rationalizing
makes us nothing. I said if we rationalize that we ARE nothing, then we ACT
as if we are nothing. And nothing gets accomplished in our lives. Some
people act as if they are nothing, and they want others to believe they are
also nothing. People of spirit think or rationalize we are SOMETHING.
Something important. We are here for a reason and a purpose. We think we are
a miracle.
Namaste'
Saint
Sorry I thought you were attempting to make some sort of contrast
between people who see and people who rationalized with that first
paragraph.
Perhaps if you'd used the word "think" or "rationalize" in both cases
your meaning would have been clearer.
--
#1883
.
|
|
|
| User: "angelicusrex" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
04 Jan 2004 03:10:35 PM |
|
|
"Owen Hughes" <spm1138@hotmail.com> wrote in message
I snipped some other important stuff. But your little tripwire here is all I
needed to know that I was dealing with yet another Loser...
Having feelings doesn't mean I need to accept a load of touchie feely
crap about "Living Fire of the Living God" or anything else.
Well guess what I think your atheist stuff is a load of clod, clammy,
emotionless crap.
I thought I was talking to a rational being. Not a atheistic dogma spouting
pompous *****. sorry.
Saint
.
|
|
|
| User: "Owen Hughes" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
04 Jan 2004 08:31:27 PM |
|
|
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message news:<bt9vft$50oe3$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>...
"Owen Hughes" <spm1138@hotmail.com> wrote in message
I snipped some other important stuff. But your little tripwire here is all I
needed to know that I was dealing with yet another Loser...
Having feelings doesn't mean I need to accept a load of touchie feely
crap about "Living Fire of the Living God" or anything else.
Well guess what I think your atheist stuff is a load of clod, clammy,
emotionless crap.
I think that sums up your viewpoint nicely.
Why didn't you just post that to start with?
It's much easier to read and I didn't get bored half-way through.
I thought I was talking to a rational being. Not a atheistic dogma spouting
pompous *****. sorry.
Saint
Shouldn't my lack of patience with your new age gibberish serve as
some kind of reassurance that being an atheist doesn't turn you into
an emotionless robot?
--
#1883
.
|
|
|
| User: "angelicusrex" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
05 Jan 2004 01:15:25 AM |
|
|
Why are you talking to me?
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:<bt9vft$50oe3$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>...
"Owen Hughes" <spm1138@hotmail.com> wrote in message
I snipped some other important stuff. But your little tripwire here is
all I
needed to know that I was dealing with yet another Loser...
I meant what I said. Some people, like yourself, simply cannot have a
rational conversation without tossing in a lot of dogmatic tripe about how
everything spiritual is "touchy-feely" or "warm and fuzzy." That is so far
from the truth of things as to be laughable. However your pals who accused
me of preaching about a "pink-fuzzy bunny Jesus" seem to be equally
incapable of actually listening to what I say. Therefore, have a nice day, a
nice life without God. I'm sure you are right, there is no God. Nothing is
warm and fuzzy in this world and we are all going to die in miserable
hellish lives full of poverty and pollution...or whatever it is you are
selling. I'm sure you will make great strides in converting other theists to
your incredibly attractive belief system...or non-belief system.
Saint (Making paragraphs since 1960).
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Don Kresch" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
03 Jan 2004 04:48:16 PM |
|
|
In alt.atheism on Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:59:33 -0700, "angelicusrex"
<whisperindave@msn.com> let us all know that:
"People travel to wonder at the height of the mountains, at the huge waves
of the seas, at the long course of the rivers, at the vast compass of the
ocean, at the circular motion of the stars, and yet they pass by themselves
without wondering." St. Augustine
Wonder != thinking that you are a miracle.
Self-delusion = thinking that you are a miracle.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Rv Cloim" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
03 Jan 2004 03:12:26 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 12:59:33 -0700, angelicusrex wrote:
"People travel to wonder at the height of the mountains, at the huge waves
of the seas, at the long course of the rivers, at the vast compass of the
ocean, at the circular motion of the stars, and yet they pass by themselves
without wondering." St. Augustine
<snip rationalization>
If we rationalize we are nothing,
Then you are nothing.
then we act as nothing.
And you act as nothing.
If we see
ourselves as miracles, then we act miraculously. Confounding all those who
say we are as nothing.
So you confound yourself.
Why post your rationalizations to alt.atheism? After all, we are the ones
asking for the evidence you realize you do not have.
.
|
|
|
| User: "angelicusrex" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
03 Jan 2004 11:12:23 PM |
|
|
"Rv Cloim" <cloim@propylaea.tor.org> wrote in message
If we see
ourselves as miracles, then we act miraculously. Confounding all those
who
say we are as nothing.
So you confound yourself.
Evidently I confounded you. You don't seem to be making much sense.
Why post your rationalizations to alt.atheism? After all, we are the ones
asking for the evidence you realize you do not have.
Because you are the ones recently seeking "proof" of everything spiritual.
When in fact you ARE proof of the spiritual. I just wanted to see how many
interesting irrational comments I would get from the neo-logicians on your
NG.
Saint
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
04 Jan 2004 09:02:16 AM |
|
|
In article <bt87bc$4cv06$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>, angelicusrex says...
snip>
Because you are the ones recently seeking "proof" of everything spiritual.
When in fact you ARE proof of the spiritual.
Prove it.
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Baruch" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
03 Jan 2004 08:26:56 PM |
|
|
Most of the time, we wind up posting to various NG's because someone
cross-posts in an effort to start a flame war. If you find these posts
unpleasant, by all means feel free to ignore them or to remove your own NG
from the headers when you reply.
Why post your rationalizations to alt.atheism? After all, we are the ones
asking for the evidence you realize you do not have.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Martin Thomas" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
12 Jan 2004 08:46:06 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:59:33 -0700 in alt.atheism
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote:
"People travel to wonder at the height of the mountains, at the huge waves
of the seas, at the long course of the rivers, at the vast compass of the
ocean, at the circular motion of the stars, and yet they pass by themselves
without wondering." St. Augustine
We are but a moment's candlelight flickering in a vast universe. But in that
tiny light is the miracle of existence itself. So many these days are asking
for "proof" of God, of spirit, or of faith working in our lives. Someday, a
comet or asteroid or other piece of space flotsam will slam into this world.
All proof of our very existence will be removed from sight. What will be
left to prove that we lived and died and struggled and had hope and faith as
human beings? Scraps of newsprint and tin signs buried beneath towering
mountains of rubble. Nature can be cruel. What was once supreme can be wiped
out in an instant, nothing left of it to offer proof to those who might come
after us. We talk of the great Library of Alexandria. Where is it? Is there
a stack of scrolls somewhere to tell us what it must have been like? No, it
is gone, burned to ash and ruin. Sounds tragic doesn't it? What can it all
mean? Only this: Live in the present moment. Trust to spirit which is
eternal and which cannot be extinguished like the tiny flickering flame of
our lives. Spirit is the opposite of the dark vacuum of our material
universe, where sparks we call stars and planets blink in and out of
existence. It is the eternal daytime in opposition to the eternal night of
this universe. We descended here long ago to bring light to it. That should
be our only goal. And that goal cannot be projected into the unknown future
or built upon the remnants of often corrupted wisdom of the past. It has to
be kindled from the Living Fire of the Living God right now, today.
By 'God', you mean something experienced, right?
Most people use the word 'God' for some abstract nonsense that
cannot be experienced, 'the dead God', as Nietzsche put it.
God has
the wisdom, power and majesty to overcome our dark feelings, our suspicions
of one another, our disagreements about the past and our fears about our
uncertain future. Others may use these feelings of distrust we have in our
world and in ourselves in order to "terrorize" us and make us bend to their
will. The easiest way to confront terror, as God has always said, is to be
unafraid. Be unafraid that your faith might have no "scientific basis" or
that God cannot be proven by chemistries and machines. Be unafraid because
the proof of God lies in the self, that wonder St. Augustine noted in each
and every one of us. Our chemical furnace we call a body, our ability to
think rationally and scientifically at all, our mysterious ability to heal
that which should not be able to be healed, our ability to find wisdom in
dreams and signs and symbols, are all proof that whatever it is we are is
founded on is something magnificent and more gigantic and powerful than any
wave or mountain peak.
If we rationalize we are nothing, then we act as nothing. If we see
ourselves as miracles, then we act miraculously. Confounding all those who
say we are as nothing.
HMMMmm ...
I get the experience you are describing, though you use a
language I find strange. .
Personally, I prefer the Buddhist approach, which explains
everything rationally as much as possible. There is a danger that
poetry can be taken literally, resulting in much confusion. Were
you really surprised that most atheists reading your words
assumed that you were writing about some relative of the
Christian theologian's God?
Personally, I tend to embrace the 'eternal night' as much as the
'eternal daytime'. On any path, the dark side must eventually be
faced.
-
Martin Thomas
Official "Teddy Bear" Atheist
mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
.
|
|
|
| User: "angelicusrex" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
13 Jan 2004 12:54:25 AM |
|
|
"Martin Thomas" <mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net> wrote in
By 'God', you mean something experienced, right?
Right.
Most people use the word 'God' for some abstract nonsense that
cannot be experienced, 'the dead God', as Nietzsche put it.
I mean the Great Spirit of Life. The Beingness of Being. The Light and
Divine Fire of Life itself...lots of words can be used. But it must be
experienced to be understood.
HMMMmm ...
I get the experience you are describing, though you use a
language I find strange. .
Well, I'm a strange person, or so I am told...
Personally, I prefer the Buddhist approach, which explains
everything rationally as much as possible.
Yes, but then there is that which can no longer be rationally explained.
Then possibilities become manifest.
There is a danger that
poetry can be taken literally, resulting in much confusion.
That's too bad. No poetry should be taken literally. It's not an instruction
booklet. Just an experience and opinion shared.
Were
you really surprised that most atheists reading your words
assumed that you were writing about some relative of the
Christian theologian's God?
No. Neither am I surprised when they try and bite my head off for being a
Christian...even though I am not one. They apprently took my poetry too
literally and cannot conceptualize God and Light and Spirit as anything but
Christian teaching. The Gnostics taught exactly these words, but meant a
whole other realm of experience...Atheists should learn to understand their
"enemies" better by reading up on some theology. At least you mentioned
Buddhism! I'm into Science of Mind myself, but I am also Buddhist in my
disposition. I sought only to defend Christians as I defend Atheists. Byt
trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Yet a war raged. One I had
to get out of. And so I am out of it now. What other people take from my
writings now is their own business. It was meant as a blessing.
Personally, I tend to embrace the 'eternal night' as much as the
'eternal daytime'. On any path, the dark side must eventually be
faced.
There is no Eternal Night. Because there is only the Light. Simply because
we cannot recognize certain vibrations of light, does not mean they do not
exist. But if you want to see the world as dark, please be my guest! But I'd
like to hear more about your personal findings and experience, rather than a
lot of atheistic dogma and anti-Christian derision. (Not accusing you of it,
just saying I won't be responding to it...)
Saint
.
|
|
|
| User: "First Maje" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
13 Jan 2004 01:04:19 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:54:25 -0700, "angelicusrex"
<whisperindave@msn.com> wrote:
I mean the Great Spirit of Life. The Beingness of Being. The Light and
Divine Fire of Life itself...lots of words can be used. But it must be
experienced to be understood.
Rudolf Ott, the German Luthern theologian, in his book "The Idea of
the Holy" points out early that people who have been exposed to
Scholasti Philosophy are incapable of having a "religious experience".
I have been exposed to Scholastic Philosophy, and I have never had a
"religious experience". Yet I am able to know by rational argument
that the Supreme Being must exist or else nothing exists.
--
Map Of The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy:
http://www.freewebs.com/vrwc/
"What is the State? The State is people - people who believe
they have a right to rule others. These people are the thieving,
murdering brutes responsible for war, conscription, taxation,
massacres, slave camps, gas chambers, killing fields, nuclear
missles, and endless death stretching back ten thousand years.
Luckily for all, the State is only people. And, generally, the
least competent of people. They are the ones who cannot innovate,
only steal. They cannot reason, only kill. They are brutes who
see the greatest efforts of mankind as loot to seize and control.
Yet when they seize the creations of greater minds, the works
crumble in their hands, for they cannot control what they are
incapable of understanding."
-- "Kings of the High Frontier"
.
|
|
|
| User: "angelicusrex" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
13 Jan 2004 01:08:36 PM |
|
|
"First Maje" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
I mean the Great Spirit of Life. The Beingness of Being. The Light and
Divine Fire of Life itself...lots of words can be used. But it must be
experienced to be understood.
Rudolf Ott, the German Luthern theologian, in his book "The Idea of
the Holy" points out early that people who have been exposed to
Scholasti Philosophy are incapable of having a "religious experience".
I have been liberally exposed to scholasti-philosophy and have had numerous
spiritual experiences. Mr. Ott was then, mistaken. For whatever reasons.
Perhpas being a lutheran, he meant people who were thus exposed could not
"fall for the Catholic Relgious Experience?" Once can have a spiritual
experience falling well outside the confines of a dogmatic faith based
religion.
I have been exposed to Scholastic Philosophy, and I have never had a
"religious experience". Yet I am able to know by rational argument
that the Supreme Being must exist or else nothing exists.
Well, I would love to see you place that rational argument here for all and
sundry to see. If it is true, then it will not be able to be picked apart by
either rabid religionists or equally rabid atheists.
Good luck!
Saint
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "raven1" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
03 Jan 2004 02:36:56 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:59:33 -0700, "angelicusrex"
<whisperindave@msn.com> wrote:
We talk of the great Library of Alexandria. Where is it?
In ashes, right where your fellow Christians left it.
.
|
|
|
| User: "angelicusrex" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
03 Jan 2004 11:07:51 PM |
|
|
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
"angelicusrex"
<whisperindave@msn.com> wrote:
We talk of the great Library of Alexandria. Where is it?
In ashes, right where your fellow Christians left it.
Does it really matter who burned what was left after Julius Caesar's troops
set it on fire? The point is once again missed by you. If you hate
Christians for burning a library fine. You should hate Nazi's for burning
books as well. But to keep berating Christians on your NG to people who are
not Christian, like myself, is simply an obsession. The point was there is
often no "proof" left of many things we believe firmly existed at one time.
Eventually there will be no proof of mankind. If entropy has its way. Which
is why I said, live for the moment. Why obsess with things that you have no
power to change? The library is gone. One day you will be gone. Is this the
way you want everyone to remember you, angry, obsessed and belligerent? Fine
with me. If this is what you live for, fine. No one is stopping you. But if
you expect me to care forget it. I don't have "fellow Christians." And if I
did I would love them as I do all people. Even when they make it extremely
hard to love them. I really do not understand though your urgent need to
call every post which has a theological background "Christian."
Saint
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "William Barwell" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
03 Jan 2004 04:21:03 PM |
|
|
raven1 wrote:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:59:33 -0700, "angelicusrex"
<whisperindave@msn.com> wrote:
We talk of the great Library of Alexandria. Where is it?
In ashes, right where your fellow Christians left it.
Yeah, the Christians shut down the last of the Greek
academies. Wondering about the Universe and looking for answers - Not
Allowed.
Christianity has sucked 1800 years and still does.
--
Bush! Chimp or chump?
Cheerful Charlie
.
|
|
|
| User: "Baruch" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
03 Jan 2004 08:25:29 PM |
|
|
You know, you act as though Christianity is the only religion (or other way
of thought) that tried to destroy teachings and books that didn't agree with
it. Bookburning has been going on almost as long as there have been books.
It has not been limited to Christianity. Every so often there is a purge of
writings, it seems. Certain emperors of China systematically destroyed all
works they could get their hands on, that were (in their view) outdated or
contrary to what they wanted people to believe. The Nazis were great with
buring books, as were Communists. Oh, and of course we get it here in the
US, certain religious folks wanting to burn Harry Potter books...
"William Barwell" <wbarwell@mungged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:3ff73e2b$0$125$811e409b@news.mylinuxisp.com...
raven1 wrote:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:59:33 -0700, "angelicusrex"
<whisperindave@msn.com> wrote:
We talk of the great Library of Alexandria. Where is it?
In ashes, right where your fellow Christians left it.
Yeah, the Christians shut down the last of the Greek
academies. Wondering about the Universe and looking for answers - Not
Allowed.
Christianity has sucked 1800 years and still does.
--
Bush! Chimp or chump?
Cheerful Charlie
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
04 Jan 2004 08:23:48 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:59:33 -0700, "angelicusrex"
<whisperindave@msn.com>, Message ID:
<bt76ur$3n089$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de> wrote in alt.atheism;
"People travel to wonder at the height of the mountains, at the huge waves
of the seas, at the long course of the rivers, at the vast compass of the
ocean, at the circular motion of the stars, and yet they pass by themselves
without wondering." St. Augustine
This one applies to you, moron.
"Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens,
and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the
stars and even their sizes and distances, and this knowledge he holds
with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and
disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about
such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We
should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation,
lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to
scorn."
-- St. Augustine, "De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim" (The Literal
Meaning of Genesis)
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
|
|
|
| User: "Anatid Bonecki" |
|
| Title: Re: Wonder: |
08 Jan 2004 10:24:05 PM |
|
|
Only a moron would answer one St. Augustine post with another St.
Augustine post when he doesn't even respect or believe in St.
Augustine.
"Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens,
and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the
stars and even their sizes and distances, and this knowledge he holds
with certainty from reason and experience.
Actually most non-Christians these days don't do the measurements or
collect the data themselves but rather rely on the data of other
people, way smarter than they are. Then they hold this "knowledge"
they borrowed as sacrosanct as the Bible, and with it they
resoundingly thump Christians. If the data turns out to be wrong or
fudged, they tell everyone that science is still better than God. Yet
scientists fudge their information all the time. Is it reason then to
simply rely on what others tell us? According to atheists, no, it is
unreasonable and illogical. Most non-Christians don't know any more
about this world or any other than any Christian. Also Christians and
other Relgious people use the exact same data the scientists give them
for physical or mathematical applications. However when it comes to
their souls and their higher purposes, they apply God liberally.
Christianity created the sciences and universities, no matter what had
happened to the Greek schools previously. So these atheists can thank
Christ and the Greek monks for their precious science. However when
science fails and reason does not assuage fear or heartache or pain,
God often comes in handy.
It is thus offensive and
disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about
such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture.
You know, only Christian Fundamentalists argue that "everything is in
the scriptures." Most main stream Christians stopped believing that
oh, around the time of St. Augustine, as we can see.
We
should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation,
lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to
scorn."
Which is why spiritual people appreciate and use science too, for what
it is worth. But it is not the be all and end all of everything in the
human experience.
Saint Albans
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
