See book 'Man's Search for Meaning' for description of optimism in the
face of a death camp experience.

Imminent probable death (usually causing massive fear) is maybe very
different to the constant pain of hell... Hell would theoretically
not be scary just painful (you are already dead after all and mortal
fear *is* ultimately only fear of mortal death). One might eventually
learn the uselessness of a pain response in hell, and focus on
something else (or on nothing) assuming one still had free will to
choose one's focus.

Theoretical reality prediction as against "theological" reality
prediction aside (I'll admit there is no real way to conclude this
competition for reality prediction to the satisfaction of all
parties), I think being religious generally implies avoiding pain
through a "wise" rather than "conventional" approach, by following a
proscribed life philosophy with super-natural or just plain natural
punishments described as important (and the assumed moral principle of
pain for me is the worst thing). Even Satanism fits this
super-generic description so as I understand it, it would generally be
an oxymoron to claim to be a "religious masochist".

Martin

"Switch from religious brands to your own love, life and joy today!
Easier, quicker and more flexible. Lack of prejudice required.
Subject to acceptance of reality. You may not get back the energy
invested but people are worth more than energy."
-- Martin Rolls

Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message news:<qe0rtvsh3304107k57v8ncq73lnsht616g@4ax.com>...

On 15 Dec 2003 01:19:57 -0800 in alt.atheism, Martin Rolls
(

Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message news:<9poptvc5hvmanqg0t5hha0bdr3v59di69t@4ax.com>...

On 14 Dec 2003 14:17:55 -0800 in alt.atheism, Martin Rolls
(

Ooh I love a paradox...

Will anyone reply? (Is this less paradoxical than one might think...)

If no one replies 'twill be interesting.

I think you want alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic!

Now, now. Calm that Usenet conflict-creation tendency.

I plead Hegel.

I am claiming spuriously to be starting a serious debate...

Oh all right, spoilsport... "seriously then": Well, almost.

Do you think that any masochist who happened to find him or herself in
one of the Nazi death camps got a kick out the experience? Or a
masochist who fell victim to Pol-Pot, or the Inquisition, and so on
and so forth.

Although one might argue that those camps were a mimesis of all the
dark Christian imaginings about Hell, the reality differs considerably
from the fantasy.

I doubt there were many, but on the other hand some of the writings of
the saints give the distinct impression that imaginings of the
sufferings of hell were not entirely unwelcome, and certainly the,
erm, - folklore - of Christianity links "not well developed" sexuality
and that religion with some of the more extreme forms of
self-punishment for perceived faults.

But, from what I gather, he said, real-life masochism differs
considerably from fantasy accounts. In real life the masochist exerts
a considerable amount of control - and fantasy isn't reality as
Auschwitz eloquently demonstrates.

Then again, for some while it was popular in some psychological
circles, to think that women who lived, and continued to live, in
abusive relationships (i.e. getting the ***** beaten of them on a
regular basis, etc). were masochists. But, simply put, this ignored
that in many instances there were no other options, or the options
were believed to have worse consequences. Try the autobiography of
Linda Lovelace, for instance, regarding this, particularly as
interpreted through:

The Myth of Women's Masochism, Paula J. Caplan
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0802077455
which while slightly shrill in parts (a vice we all suffer from) has
its moments of supreme clarity and sense.

Besides that one imagines that the whole point about Hell is that one
does *not* enjoy it - indeed the idea is that one suffers with no hope
of an end to that suffering: God makes it His personal business to see
to it that you don't enjoy it. Given this, the "Hell as masochist
heaven" paradigm seems a tad wanting, and frankly, if you're
religious, you'd have to be pathological not to realise this.

Yep, it's a really complex subject, and one I think that would benefit
from some investigation: one might for example, argue that giving ones
allegiance to a God who imposes Hell upon some people, in return for
not having Hell imposed upon oneself is the ultimate failure of
empathy - arguably that which makes us human -

If Darklady comes across this exchange, perhaps she'd care to
contribute her thoughts.